PDA

View Full Version : ac or heavy fort?



hunh08
02-28-2011, 12:48 AM
My level 12 fighter is currently wearing +5 mithral FP, and has an unbuffed AC of 26. I have moderate fort in another slot, but would like to get heavy fort. I could get +1 FP of heavy fort pretty cheaply on the AH, but it would drop my AC by a whopping 6 points. I'm thinking this is a bad idea, but 100% protection from crits and sa sounds pretty good.

Lorien_the_First_One
02-28-2011, 12:52 AM
At 26 AC you might as well be naked anyway.

Twitchster
02-28-2011, 12:52 AM
Get a Minos helm from Necro 4..... heavy fort solved.

hunh08
02-28-2011, 01:00 AM
At 26 AC you might as well be naked anyway.

I guess a follow up would be - what is a minimum AC for armor to be useful at this level, and can it be achieved without raid gear?

Thx

hunh08
02-28-2011, 01:02 AM
Get a Minos helm from Necro 4..... heavy fort solved.

but it'll be a level or 2 before I can do that I think...

Thx

Twitchster
02-28-2011, 01:04 AM
but it'll be a level or 2 before I can do that I think...

Thx


Minos is wearable at level 11. Its really your best choice for now.

Or.... put heavy fort on the event pirate hat while it is still going on.

TheDearLeader
02-28-2011, 01:07 AM
Minos is wearable at level 11. Its really your best choice for now.

Or.... put heavy fort on the event pirate hat while it is still going on.

Agreed

hunh08
02-28-2011, 01:10 AM
Minos is wearable at level 11. Its really your best choice for now.

Or.... put heavy fort on the event pirate hat while it is still going on.

I just went VIP, so I guess I'd better get over to the orchard.

Lorien_the_First_One
02-28-2011, 01:12 AM
I guess a follow up would be - what is a minimum AC for armor to be useful at this level, and can it be achieved without raid gear?

Thx

In my experience, if you aren't hitting 40 by then you don't have effective AC.

It's fairly easy to get good AC in this game at low levels, pretty darn tough starting at about GH and above.

hunh08
02-28-2011, 01:13 AM
In my experience, if you aren't hitting 40 by then you don't have effective AC.

It's fairly easy to get good AC in this game at low levels, pretty darn tough starting at about GH and above.

Thanks Lorien

Dulcimerist
02-28-2011, 01:46 AM
You could run the "A Relic of a Sovereign Past" quest to get the heavy fortification necklace. That one is free to play, and the item is only a minimum level 9.

cdemeritt
02-28-2011, 02:03 AM
Even if you could get a AC of 80 at lvl 12, you still want a heavy fort item... As far as tapestry hunting goes, if you don't want to play in the orchard, there is always the AH... overpriced, but available... Tapestry shreds don't bind, so you can get your menos without ever stepping foot in the orchard...

or you can farm adamantine ore in Black Anvil Mines (relic of a sovereign past), and turn them in for a nightforged gorget a ml9 necklace of heavy fort. (actually very easy and quick to solo on casual w/ hireling cleric at lvl, about 15-20 minutes and you don't need to complete)

Joseph
02-28-2011, 02:11 AM
At level 12, if you do not have at least 40 AC, then you are wasting your time, in my opinion.

My level 11 Fighter - Orthon, on Ghallanda, has an AC of about 50, and in a party with stance can hit 60.

If I pop potions of resist (fire, elec), and I have my Minos helm on, I am standing with 280HP (unbuffed) and 55 self buffed AC. Nothing at level touches me, and the only damage I take is from MM - if I do not have a shield item up. If I have a shield item for no MM, then I am a one man killing machine. Clerics and squishies love me - plus the intimidate.

Of course, I do get held occasionally, which certainly sucks :)

By the time I hit L20 I think I will easily have 65-70 AC before buffs are applied.

(Edit - forgot to put in the obvious...)

Heavy Fort is more important than the AC - because even with all of that ac, and rarely ever getting hit, when I DO get hit, it is almost always a critical, so it does massive damage. Case in point - running the new cove adventure, I take off my minos helm (heavy fort) and I put on my pirate hat, and I am fine, and then I drop 100HP in a second or two (because of crit hits). :(

So - go with heavy fort. The Mith FP was a great item way back when. These days it is replaced by almost every possible item you can get or farm after level 14 (which is why I did not put any ritual on mine yet). Same goes for the Mith Tower I use - it will be replaced, so I use it as is and did not add rituals to it.

Uska
02-28-2011, 03:14 AM
nvr evr give up heavy fort

NaturalHazard
02-28-2011, 03:48 AM
heavy fort is your best friend.

Stitch78
02-28-2011, 08:52 AM
My level 12 fighter is currently wearing +5 mithral FP, and has an unbuffed AC of 26.



At 26 AC you might as well be naked anyway.

1) Never argue with Lorien on the forums - it's a losing proposition.

2) A totally unbuffed AC of 26 can probably be turned into a useful AC at that level with only a small amount of work.
If you invest in barkskin&haste pots, a +4 or +5 protection item, shield clicky, AC enhancement, etc you can probably get to 36-38 without too much effort. In Gianthold a 38 AC is useful although not uber. Find a friendly ranger (better barkskin) and/or a paladin with a good aura, turn on defensive fighting stance if you really care not to get hit or when your healers goes down and you will be able to hit 40+ AC.

Hmm, maybe that's more than a small amount of work...

unbongwah
02-28-2011, 09:31 AM
How to get Heavy Fort for free at level 9 (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=284046)

Wrendd
02-28-2011, 09:46 AM
Hell, at lvl 20 I think my fighter is rocking an 18 AC. The 226 HP I have make up for it :) (actually I have around 700hp, not great but not bad either)

A high AC can be very useful but many people have to sacrifice DPS to get it. You can get a high AC and great DPS, but it is harder to do and often requires a splash of monk/rogue or whatever, and it also is usually a TWF. I see very very few THF with high AC.

Asketes
02-28-2011, 09:55 AM
if you can get to the necropolis, get your 20 (or 25, whatever it is) tapestries and you can have a shiny new Minos Legens helmet (20 HP & heavy fort)

TheDjinnFor
02-28-2011, 10:24 AM
I guess a follow up would be - what is a minimum AC for armor to be useful at this level, and can it be achieved without raid gear?

Here's the rough guide I went by when I rolled a tank: take the quest level, and multiply it by 2 for solo/normal, 3 for hard/some raids, 4 for elite/other raids, and 5 for epic; that's your target ACl. It's fairly conservative: you're almost guaranteed to be unhittable.

So, say, at level 12 you'll want 24 buffed AC for general soloing (due to dungeon scaling and all), 36 for some grouped play/hard, and 48 for elite/tough quests.

Here's what you can do with pretty much any build:

Base AC: 10
12 Base Dex: +1 AC
Dex +6 Item: +3 AC
Mithral Full Plate +5: +13 AC
Barkskin Potion: +3 AC
Haste: +1 AC
Protection +5 Item: +5 AC
Shield Clicky: +4 AC
=40

You can hit that without sacrificing DPS at all (good luck finding it all, though). It's a fair AC for all of Gianthold but you'll be eaten alive on hard (and up) with a fuller group (due to scaling).

Here's what you can do with support:

Paladin Aura: +5 AC
Ranger Barkskin (+5): +2 AC
Cleric Recitation Spell: +2 AC
Bard Inspire Heroics: +4 AC
=53 AC

A little better but when are you going to have all of the above in your party?

Here's what a more dedicated tank can hit:

14 Base Dex: +1 AC (on top of 12 Dex)
Tower Shield +5: +5 AC (after shield spell)
Combat Expertise: +5 AC
Blocking AC: +2 AC
=66 AC

That's a solid AC, and will work for anything Gianthold: problem is, it's a dedicated tank with a Tower Shield equipped and CE taken (that means 13 int...).


but it'll be a level or 2 before I can do that I think...

Thx

If you give up on Heavy fort, there are some really great robes in the auction house: Deathblock Robes of Heavy Fortification, for example; two immunities in one.

Drakos
02-28-2011, 10:38 AM
if you can get to the necropolis, get your 20 (or 25, whatever it is) tapestries and you can have a shiny new Minos Legens helmet (20 HP & heavy fort)
I don't disagree with your post but I think it would be helpful to put it as Toughness + Heavy Fortification as the helm can be worn at level 11 but would only be granting you the 11 hp not 20 hp.

I realize that at 20 it is 20 hp but it could be confusing to new players if stated as a flat 20 hp.

Bodic
02-28-2011, 10:39 AM
and all you need is the orchard quest available(vip or purchased the pack) as you can AH the taps fairly cheap and turn them in for your Minos so you dont even have to go out and collect them yourself.

Personally as soon as I take lvl 11 I run and grab the helm I only stop to gear in the lvling process @ 4,8,11,13, and 18 usually. everything else falls into place per quest loot.

Asketes
02-28-2011, 10:40 AM
I don't disagree with your post but I think it would be helpful to put it as Toughness + Heavy Fortification as the helm can be worn at level 11 but would only be granting you the 11 hp not 20 hp.

I realize that at 20 it is 20 hp but it could be confusing to new players if stated as a flat 20 hp.

it was changed a while back to be a stock 20 hp when worn.

Although it is still referred to as toughness on the item, it no longer acts like a toughness feat.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Minos_Legens

Drakos
02-28-2011, 10:43 AM
it was changed a while back to be a stock 20 hp.

it no longer acts like a toughness feat

http://ddowiki.com/page/Minos_Legens
Wow, really? Thanks, I missed that somehow.

cdemeritt
02-28-2011, 10:44 AM
I don't disagree with your post but I think it would be helpful to put it as Toughness + Heavy Fortification as the helm can be worn at level 11 but would only be granting you the 11 hp not 20 hp.

I realize that at 20 it is 20 hp but it could be confusing to new players if stated as a flat 20 hp.

This is no longer the case... a few mods ago they changed it to have a flat 20 hp... even at lvl 11...

Asketes
02-28-2011, 10:46 AM
wow, Really? Thanks, I Missed That Somehow.


this Is No Longer The Case... A Few Mods Ago They Changed It To Have A Flat 20 Hp... Even At Lvl 11...

yup yup

TheDearLeader
02-28-2011, 02:04 PM
Here's the rough guide I went by when I rolled a tank: take the quest level, and multiply it by 2 for solo/normal, 3 for hard/some raids, 4 for elite/other raids, and 5 for epic; that's your target ACl. It's fairly conservative: you're almost guaranteed to be unhittable.

So, say, at level 12 you'll want 24 buffed AC for general soloing (due to dungeon scaling and all), 36 for some grouped play/hard, and 48 for elite/tough quests.

I'd question your formula, because those numbers look way too low to considered "Unhittable", especially that 24 AC on Normal.

Below, I respond to your AC calculation for him. I see some errors.

Base AC: 10 Right
12 Base Dex: +1 AC Right
Dex +6 Item: +3 AC Wrong. The Mithral FP you mention below would cap his Dex Bonus to AC. +2 Max, I believe? Either way, not +4 Total Dex Bonus Also, unless he's lucky/rolling in the dough, he won't see Dex +6 for another level, @ level 13.
Mithral Full Plate +5: +13 AC Maybe Right? Not in game to check.
Barkskin Potion: +3 AC Right
Haste: +1 AC Right
Protection +5 Item: +5 AC Wrong. Non-named Prot Items at this level are going to max @ +4.
Shield Clicky: +4 AC Right... for a minute at a time. That's 5-6 Inventory spaces of x3 Clickies to be called Sustainable.

You can hit that without sacrificing DPS at all (good luck finding it all, though). It's a fair AC for all of Gianthold but you'll be eaten alive on hard (and up) with a fuller group (due to scaling).

Here's what you can do with support:

Paladin Aura: +5 AC Mostly Wrong. While a DoS could have this Aura by level 12, most Paladins use HotD to level.
Ranger Barkskin (+5): +2 AC Barely. They just get +5 @ Level 12. If a level 11 joins his group, its only +4, or extra +1 AC
Cleric Recitation Spell: +2 AC Right
Bard Inspire Heroics: +4 AC Wrong. Bards don't get this until level 15, and that's only if they're pure class.

A little better but when are you going to have all of the above in your party?

Here's what a more dedicated tank can hit:

14 Base Dex: +1 AC (on top of 12 Dex) Wrong, his Dex will still be capped.
Tower Shield +5: +5 AC (after shield spell) Right
Combat Expertise: +5 AC Right
Blocking AC: +2 AC Right

hunh08
02-28-2011, 03:09 PM
I'd question your formula, because those numbers look way too low to considered "Unhittable", especially that 24 AC on Normal.

Below, I respond to your AC calculation for him. I see some errors.

Base AC: 10 Right
12 Base Dex: +1 AC Right
Dex +6 Item: +3 AC Wrong. The Mithral FP you mention below would cap his Dex Bonus to AC. +2 Max, I believe? Either way, not +4 Total Dex Bonus Also, unless he's lucky/rolling in the dough, he won't see Dex +6 for another level, @ level 13.
Mithral Full Plate +5: +13 AC Maybe Right? Not in game to check.
Barkskin Potion: +3 AC Right
Haste: +1 AC Right
Protection +5 Item: +5 AC Wrong. Non-named Prot Items at this level are going to max @ +4.
Shield Clicky: +4 AC Right... for a minute at a time. That's 5-6 Inventory spaces of x3 Clickies to be called Sustainable.

You can hit that without sacrificing DPS at all (good luck finding it all, though). It's a fair AC for all of Gianthold but you'll be eaten alive on hard (and up) with a fuller group (due to scaling).

Here's what you can do with support:

Paladin Aura: +5 AC Mostly Wrong. While a DoS could have this Aura by level 12, most Paladins use HotD to level.
Ranger Barkskin (+5): +2 AC Barely. They just get +5 @ Level 12. If a level 11 joins his group, its only +4, or extra +1 AC
Cleric Recitation Spell: +2 AC Right
Bard Inspire Heroics: +4 AC Wrong. Bards don't get this until level 15, and that's only if they're pure class.

A little better but when are you going to have all of the above in your party?

Here's what a more dedicated tank can hit:

14 Base Dex: +1 AC (on top of 12 Dex) Wrong, his Dex will still be capped.
Tower Shield +5: +5 AC (after shield spell) Right
Combat Expertise: +5 AC Right
Blocking AC: +2 AC Right

I can get part of the way there atm -

Base AC: 10 Right
12 Base Dex: +1 AC Right
Dex +6 Item: +3 AC Wrong. The Mithral FP you mention below would cap his Dex Bonus to AC. +2 Max, I believe? Either way, not +4 Total Dex Bonus Also, unless he's lucky/rolling in the dough, he won't see Dex +6 for another level, @ level 13. - Have +3 now, believe my dex bonus is capped.
Mithral Full Plate +5: +13 AC Maybe Right? Not in game to check. - Yep
Barkskin Potion: +3 AC Right - Yep
Haste: +1 AC Right - Yep, Clickie
Protection +5 Item: +5 AC Wrong. Non-named Prot Items at this level are going to max @ +4. - For the moment can alternatively use SoF pots for +2 (I think) or Prot from Evil
Shield Clicky: +4 AC Right... for a minute at a time. That's 5-6 Inventory spaces of x3 Clickies to be called Sustainable. - Yep - need to get a few more

This is great info - I know what to look for

Barumar
02-28-2011, 03:14 PM
heavy fort is your and your healers best friend.

Had to add to that as I play a couple healer types :D

Barumar

Cloista
02-28-2011, 07:55 PM
Those AC values for 'useful' AC are well off, 24 for a level 12 quest? You'll be hit on a 5 if not lower. A rough guide for 'useful' (not unhittable) I hear very often, and have found some success with, is (Level x 2) + 20, so a level 12 quest for useful AC you'd be looking at ~44, not 24. This works fairly well up to late game, but the formula changes again for endgame raids/epics, though I'd not want to give you numbers for those as I have never played an AC build that high.

EustaceTrevelyan
02-28-2011, 08:16 PM
My level 12 fighter is currently wearing +5 mithral FP, and has an unbuffed AC of 26. I have moderate fort in another slot, but would like to get heavy fort. I could get +1 FP of heavy fort pretty cheaply on the AH, but it would drop my AC by a whopping 6 points. I'm thinking this is a bad idea, but 100% protection from crits and sa sounds pretty good.



100% you always want as much fort as you can get as early as you can get it.
even if you had enough ac to only get hit p on a 1, you want fort. Being crit is that bad

LordMond63
02-28-2011, 08:36 PM
Due to game mechanics, AC has been rendered an >almost< moot issue. It isn't impossible to raise your AC high enough to make a difference, but it does require some serious equipment and planning to do so. I make no claim to be an expert but I would imagine that having an AC in the mid 40s around the time you hit Gianthold would be the target range for your AC to have any meaningful impact on whether you get hit or not.

So if you (almost) cannot achieve a raw AC high enough to matter, there are a couple of ways to mitigate damage taken when you do get smacked. The first is through Fortification gear, preferably Heavy Fortification. Giants hit REALLY REALLY hard. I gues that comes from being fifteen feet tall and in a state of persistent 'Roid Rage. Their regular hits are bad enough but, when they score a crit, even the highest hitpoint totals will take a noticable hit. For the rest of us in the "non highest hitpont total" category, you CAN be one-hit (or two-hit) dead unless your healer is really on top of his game. For that reason alone, I recommend Fortification over Armor Class.

Finally, it might have been addressed and, if so, please forgive my repetitiveness, but I would also recommend getting a Blur or Displacement clicky or five. If memory serves, Blur gives a straight 20% chance that any given attack will miss and Displacement is 50% (but of a much more limited duration). I'm sure that someone can do the math that shows how many AC points increases your chance to be missed by 20% at a given level- I know that I cannot- but I would imagine the number to be pretty high and would take a great deal of pretty specialized gear to gain its equivalent.

Stitch78
03-01-2011, 08:01 AM
Those AC values for 'useful' AC are well off, 24 for a level 12 quest? You'll be hit on a 5 if not lower. A rough guide for 'useful' (not unhittable) I hear very often, and have found some success with, is (Level x 2) + 20, so a level 12 quest for useful AC you'd be looking at ~44, not 24. This works fairly well up to late game, but the formula changes again for endgame raids/epics, though I'd not want to give you numbers for those as I have never played an AC build that high.

In my experience, 44 makes you close to unhittable on level 11 and 12 quests (on normal) - maybe only getting hit on 16+. We're talking about the Lordsmarch Plaza quests and Relic (and Invaders, not that AC really helps one way or the other in there). Same for Atraxia quests on hard.

Once you get to Gianthold (min lvl 13 quests) the AC requirements jump WAY up, even in the explorer areas.

But as noted in my post above, it gets very difficult to keep track of your AC after a while, because you wander in and out of auras and certain buffs don't show up on your sheet as boosting your AC, even though they do.

Stitch78
03-01-2011, 08:02 AM
1) Never argue with Lorien on the forums - it's a losing proposition.

2) A totally unbuffed AC of 26 can probably be turned into a useful AC at that level with only a small amount of work.
If you invest in barkskin&haste pots, a +4 or +5 protection item, shield clicky, AC enhancement, etc you can probably get to 36-38 without too much effort. In Gianthold a 38 AC is useful although not uber. Find a friendly ranger (better barkskin) and/or a paladin with a good aura, turn on defensive fighting stance if you really care not to get hit or when your healers goes down and you will be able to hit 40+ AC.

Hmm, maybe that's more than a small amount of work...


I got neg'd for this, really??? That better not have been from you Lorien!!

Lorien_the_First_One
03-01-2011, 08:23 AM
I got neg'd for this, really??? That better not have been from you Lorien!!

It wasn't lol. You gave good advice, I suggest you report your own post with the bad rep and ask for it to be looked at, the mods will almost certainly fix it.

And I've pos repped this post to make up for the ID 10T problem.

Kaldaka
03-01-2011, 08:59 AM
I had a pally breakdown of AC I wrote up, it was a while ago, there might be ways to squeeze some more. Also, it has items that need some work to get, but just posting for your information ... Remember this is a *Dwarf DOS III 18 pally/2 fighter* so your results may vary :D


AC - 10(base) + 2(chaosguard) + 5(DEX, w/ dwarf & fighter EHN) + 15(DT FP Armor) + 2(alchemal, armor+shield) + 9(Tower Shield) + 4(insight GS weapon) + 6(full pally aura) + 5(protection) + 1(feat, Dodge) + 5(CE) + 3(dodge on DT) = 67 + 1(haste) + 4(bard) + 5(barkskin) + 2(recitation) = 79 + defender line stances(6)/blocking(2)/ToD set bonus(2) = 89

I also figured you could get about 35ish DR while blocking and an intim well into the 60s.

Drakos
03-01-2011, 09:51 AM
It wasn't lol. You gave good advice, I suggest you report your own post with the bad rep and ask for it to be looked at, the mods will almost certainly fix it.

And I've pos repped this post to make up for the ID 10T problem.
So far this hasn't worked for me yet. I got neg repped in the thread by the quartermaster asking for items we'd like to see in the store. My responce followed the rules set forth by the Quartermaster but I was neg repped. I did as you suggested, alas to no avail though.

sheepface
03-01-2011, 10:00 AM
Nothing is worth giving up heavy fort for.