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View Full Version : Alignment restrictions for PaleMaster PRE/should we get rid of alignment restrictions



garkzz
02-26-2011, 12:00 PM
I just read about a palemaster build that had 2 levels of paladin. Doesn't it seem odd that a lawful good paladin can cohort with the undead? Shouldn't the palemaster PRE have a non-good alignment restriction or should we just throw out the alignment restrictions on builds, so we can play monk/barbs, pally/bards, etc.?

Lithic
02-26-2011, 12:02 PM
In pen and paper, liches could be any alignment (even lawfull good). I don't see why you couldnt have a palemaster/paladin.

bryanmeerkat
02-26-2011, 12:10 PM
Of cource if a lawful good paladin tried to use the bodies of the dead as puppets to further his cause Id be the first to slap an alighnment infringement on him if I was DMing

garkzz
02-26-2011, 12:17 PM
I guess it seems a bit schizophrenic for a champion of good (especially a hunter of the dead PRE) to be defiling the dead and wielding necromantic spells. It seems a lot less probable than a barb/monk or pally/bard.

Kinerd
02-27-2011, 03:59 PM
Maybe he feels really guilty 2/20ths of the time.

Anyway, do pale masters in DDO even animate the bodies of the dead? It seems like they create their summons from their own flesh, which I suppose makes them God and Adam rolled into one... assuming they marry their summons. This got really weird.

baddax
02-28-2011, 01:26 AM
Believe that would make him an anti palidin.

BanditoRazor
03-05-2011, 08:37 PM
Someone pointed me to this thread so I'm going to comment on it. Keep in mind that even Chaotic gods can have paladins. Tymora, for the FR setting, has paladins who are not chaotic. So if you are say an elven paladin of a god of death, you would be well within both your alignment and your service to your god. (Which shouldnt be too hard as the elves have a long history of doing some "moral acrobatics" on why them doing something (*coughcough lichdom coughcough*) is ok for them, but not for anyone else.


Edit: I would also like to mention that "The Blood of Vol" (which is an elven sect, no shock there) has many "good" align'd priests, yet their god's domains are Death, Evil, Law and Necromancy.

FlyingTurtle
03-05-2011, 09:14 PM
Also, there's nothing intrinsically evil about animating corpses unless you kill them yourself.

Antheal
03-05-2011, 10:44 PM
Undying Court.

The Venerated are mummies animated by *positive* energy, instead of negative energy like every single other Undead in existence. Not quite sure how that works and why nobody else does anything similar, but what/ever.

Ungood
03-06-2011, 05:59 AM
Of cource if a lawful good paladin tried to use the bodies of the dead as puppets to further his cause Id be the first to slap an alighnment infringement on him if I was DMing

Agreed!

Vellrad
03-06-2011, 06:02 AM
In PnP, palemaster had to be neutral or evil aligment, but in DDO pres got no aligment requirements.

Ungood
03-06-2011, 06:05 AM
I just read about a palemaster build that had 2 levels of paladin. Doesn't it seem odd that a lawful good paladin can cohort with the undead? Shouldn't the palemaster PRE have a non-good alignment restriction or should we just throw out the alignment restrictions on builds, so we can play monk/barbs, pally/bards, etc.?

Honestly I am on the fence about a PrE being alignment restricted, and I am leaning towards not really liking the idea. But you make a good point, so, what might be a workable solution would be to have lich form and other "necromantic" spells and abilities also have a 'taint of evil' effect applied to them, where they give a neg level to anyone who is good aligned and cast them, or is under the effect of them.

It would not be an alignment requirement per say, but it would get the point across as to the nature of this PrE.

SynalonEtuul
03-06-2011, 06:36 AM
While it's true that there's nothing inherently wrong about necromancy, I was under the impression DnD morality was a bit more linear than that. While I as a DM would allow a good character to be a necromancer, I was always under the impression that paladins had an intrinsic hatred towards undead as a concept, regardless of who was using them.

sirgog
03-06-2011, 06:46 AM
While it's true that there's nothing inherently wrong about necromancy, I was under the impression DnD morality was a bit more linear than that. While I as a DM would allow a good character to be a necromancer, I was always under the impression that paladins had an intrinsic hatred towards undead as a concept, regardless of who was using them.

Eberron has less absolutes of good and evil.

That said, a pale paladin does strike me as an odd combination.

diamabel
03-06-2011, 06:49 AM
I just read about a palemaster build that had 2 levels of paladin. Doesn't it seem odd that a lawful good paladin can cohort with the undead? Shouldn't the palemaster PRE have a non-good alignment restriction or should we just throw out the alignment restrictions on builds, so we can play monk/barbs, pally/bards, etc.?

I would say it rather depends on the specific faith we're talking about. An elven follower of the undying court could maybe start his/her adventuring career as paladin and then switch to wizard/palemaster/necromaner later on. As for other faiths only a closer look might tell if such a career is compatible. Possible consequences could be that the adventurer would have to change alignment, abandon his former faith, be considered a heretic by the mainstream branches of his faith, etc..

SynalonEtuul
03-06-2011, 06:50 AM
Eberron has less absolutes of good and evil.

That said, a pale paladin does strike me as an odd combination.

That's a good point; it does say in the Eberron source books that you're likely to find good vampires and evil gold dragons, doesn't it? Do paladins even have the same alignment restriction?

justhavinfun
03-06-2011, 07:00 AM
Death in and of itself is neither good or evil. It is not about being able to use the undead, but more about how they are used. If they were being used to randomly kill anything and everything then that would be evil. On the other hand if used to thwart the evil acts of others then that would be considered good.

Intentions and actions mean more than the actual alignment. Remember in many cases the ends justify the means.

donfilibuster
03-06-2011, 07:39 AM
Good aligned undead exist mostly against their will, such as with vampires and certain ghosts.

Now classes may be restricted by alignment but DMs are allowed to do their own prestige classes or class variants.
To this end the DM that is turbine just let us do our own class builds using the enhancement system.
Which is nice because now we can customize to taste instead of having to choose from preset prestige classes.

So you have to see the build as a whole, in this case it wouldn't be a wizard that is trying to become a paladin.
It can very well be seen as a paladin with arcane knowledge, much like the blackguard would be minus the evil.

Furthermore, the palemaster as an enhancement is not quite a full necromancer.
It channels negative energy, summon rather than raise and become undead only partially.
The lich form is not a real lich, nor you are trying to attain lichdom to beat death on its game.

But agreed the original pale master from pnp has a non-good restriction but it goes to show you can be a neutral necromancer.

There's a lot of precedent, in and out of d&d, from Raistlin Majere to Isildur.
The text of the palemaster explains that necromancy still favours divine casters, so arcane casters felt at disadvantage and sought ways to further his power over the death.
Or something like that, but in the end the wizards tend to have at least deep knowledge of death and eldritch stuff in general.