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Requiro
02-24-2011, 02:52 PM
This is complete overhaul of the TR feat system. I use as much as I could from old system, trying to made this balance and useful. For now some of the benefit from TR feats are obvious (like Wizards) some have hidden effect and only because that are useful (like Barbarian), but most are completely useless (or almost useless).

I apologize for lots of text, but there is no other option. I tried to minimize the amount of space as much as I could :(

In my opinion TR should encourage Veterans to play again with low level players. That made this game playable from level 1 to 20, and more interesting for new players. For their time, TR players should get some small gift. The best gift is some small improvements to characters.

Secondly, TR option is great for new players, who like to “design” their own, personal perfect build with Completionist or “at least” 6x TR toons. (most of this players don’t get even 2xTR, but they spend some time with game, and some of them buy TP or even become VIP)

That why I design improvements to this system in my own way :o :

Free TR feats, should give us 3 kind of small bonus:
- Something what in next life improve our old class abilities (I call this: “Class”)
- Something what improve the specialist role from our old live (I call this: “Special”)
- Something what generally will be good for any next live (I call this: “All”)

Slotneed TR feat, should give us passive and active bonus:
- Passive – something special, what is super rare in game or not acquire at all
- Active – some per rest clicky with unique power connected with previous live.

Completionist, should give us most powerful add on. When we spend so much time with game that we can get this feat, we are already overpowered (super gear, all TR feats, 36 point builds ect.).

With this assumptions I design this improvements:



Free TR feats (stack 3x):

Barbarian:

Class : +15 sec duration to rage and any frenzy
Special : +1 additional use of Uncanny Dodge, DR 1/- (stacking only with Barbarian Natural DR)
All : +10 HP


Bard:

Class : +1 additional Bard song, +15 sec Bard song duration
Special : +1 UMD
All : +2 save vs. Enchantment and Illusion spell


Cleric:

Class : +1 Turn Undead, +2 caster level for Turn Undead
Special : 1% chance to critics for all healing spells, +1 DC to Conjuration spells
All : 3% more health when affected by positive energy (or negative if Pale Master), +1 to Heal skill


Favored Soul:

Class : +1 to-hit with your Deity-based weapon.
Special : +1 Spell Penetration, +20 SP
All : +1 to all saves, +1 to Heal skill


Fighter:

Class : +1 dmg to your Specialization weapon.
Special : +1 DC tactical feats
All : +1 to-hit


Monk:

Class : +1 additional Meditation
Special : +1 Concentration and Tumble skill
All : +1 dmg, 2% faster movement speed


Paladin:

Class : +1 additional Lay on Hands
Special : +1 damage (to any weapon) if Lawful Good character
All : 5% more health when affected by positive energy (or negative if Pale Master), +1 save vs. Disease


Ranger:

Class : +1 additional Wild Emapthy, +1 dmg for Favorite Enemy
Special : +2 dmg for ranged wepons, 1% doublestrike to melee combat
All : +2 resist to all type of energy


Rogue:

Class : +1 to Disarm Trap and Open locks skills
Special : +2 sneak dmg, 3% faster sneaking
All : +2 saves vs. trap


Sorcerer:

Class : 5% more damage and duration to all Sorcerer spells
Special : +1 DC on Evocation spells, +30 SP
All : +1 resist to elemental type of energy (Fire, Ice, Acid, Electric), +1 save vs. Evocation spells


Wizard:

Class : +2 Spell Penetration to all Wizards spells
Special : +2 DC to all wands
All : +1 skill point on level 2 and 3 only.


Slotneed TR feats (don’t stack, available from level 1):

Barbarian:

Passive:+2 Intimidate, Toughness “feat effect”, +2 Str, Con, -2 AC while Ragining,
Active: 3/rest BloodRage: +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 Will save, -2 AC Duration: 20 + 8 / level sec.


Bard:

Passive: +1 to all Charisma based skills, Spell Focus: Enchantment and Illusion “feat effect”
Active: 5/rest Bardic Music: +2 save vs charm and fear and +2 to-hit and dmg, Duration: 200 + 10 / level sec.


Cleric:

Passive: +4 Heal, Spell Focus: Conjuration “feat effect”
Active: 5/rest Healing Word: 2d6 + 1d6 / 2 level positive energy spell and Lesser Restoration effect at once.


Favored Soul:

Passive: +2 Heal, +2 Diplomacy, Mental Toughness “feat effect”
Active: 10/rest Avenging Light: 1d8 + 1d8 / 2 level light damage and Doom effect at once.


Fighter:

Passive: +2 Intimidate, +2 Max. Dex bonus, Weapon Focus: Slashing “feat effect”.
Active: 5/rest: Martial Prowess: BAB like you are Fighter, +4 additional to-hit and damage Duration: 20 + 5 / level sec.


Monk:

Passive: +2 Concetration, +2 Tumble, Improved Unarmed Fighting (One step higher damage then normal)
Active: 3/rest Evasion Trance: Grant Evasion feat effect and + 3 reflex save, Duration: 20 + 5 / level sec.


Paladin:

Passive: +2 Heal, +2 Spot, Resist Poison “feat effect”
Active: 5/rest Divine Blessing: Divine Favor, Virtue and Protection from Evil spell effect at once, Duration: 60 + 5 / level sec.


Ranger:

Passive: +2 Spot, +2 Listen, + 2 Swim, Weapon Focus: Ranged “feat effect”.
Active: 3/rest Nature Power: Barkskin, Ram’s Might and Wild Instincts spell effect at once, Duration: 60 + 30 / level sec.


Rogue:

Passive: +1 to all Skills, Stealthy and Nibmble Fingers “feat effect”
Active: 3/rest Master of Sneaking: +1 hide and move silently / level, +1 sneak dmg / 2 level, +1 sneak to-hit / 4 level, Duration: 60 + 10 / level sec.


Sorcerer:

Passive: +2 Concentration, Mental Toughness, Mobile Spellcasting and Spell Focus: Evocation “feat effect”
Active: 10/rest Elemental Ray: 2d12 + 1d12 / 2 level random elemental damage, Half on reflex save.


Wizard:

Passive: +2 Diplomacy, +1 DC to all spells, Combat Casting “feat effect”
Active: 10/rest Magic Missile Energy: 1d4+1 /missile + 1d4+1 /missile per 2 levels. Force damage.


--------- Special Note: “feat effect” mean that act like normal feat (also for prerequest purpoes), but can stack with normal feat at the same type -------------

Completionist TR feats:


After get ALL free TR feats:

Passive ability: additional feat slot on level 3 that can be use only by Slotneed TR feats.
New feat ability: Get access to Completionist feat (available from level 3) that give you: +2 To all stat

After get ALL free 3 x TR feats:

Passive ability: You can choice the color of your Nick and special mark in both side of your name (instead of wings). On one of the flag in the Marketplace is your Name. Title of one event has get your Name inside.
New feat ability: Get access to Master feat (available from level 6) that give you: +2 To all stat and skill. Stack with Completionist feat.



--------- Special Note: When you Win the game (3xTR in all classes), you are most powerful player in DDO. That’s why Master feat, are intentionally overpowered. -------------


I know that this system is not finished. I spend some time to design this, but I’m sure that I miss something. Any comments will be great. Especially constructive critic. If you don’t want comment all, fell free to comment part of this or maybe even only one class :)

transtemporal
02-24-2011, 03:43 PM
In my opinion TR should encourage Veterans to play again with low level players. That made this game playable from level 1 to 20, and more interesting for new players.

The biggest disincentive to vets playing with new players is not the TR feats. Its the levelling penalty. Eventually it gets so prohibitive that you can't afford to play with new players who are gonna die and cost you 10%.

Back to the feats...

I like the way your suggestion provides a template for designing the TR feats but most people will actually pick it up for a class/special bonus. The universally useful benefit is gravy on top.

For example: if I pick up the current ranger feat I'm getting it for the +2 stacking bonus to ranged damage, not the +2 to elemental resistances (although its definitely nice and I won't complain). Adding additional useful stuff on top of that is too powerful IMO.

I would rather that one of those categories was fairly tough, and the other two were very minor or non-existent.

For example, the ranger feat could have several variants you can chose from:

Ranger free past life feat one:
* Class : +1 stacking dmg against Favored Enemy
* Special : +1% doublestrike
* All : -

Ranger free past life feat two:
* Class : -
* Special : +2 stacking ranged dmg
* All : +2 elemental resistance

Ranger free past life feat three:
* Class : +2 stacking Wild Empathy
* Special : -
* All : +5 elemental resistance

As for the non-free feat: great structure for designing the feat - way too powerful. The current paladin one is already pretty tough. Giving the clickie virtue and PfE as well as the scaling divine favor is way OTT.

Requiro
02-24-2011, 04:53 PM
First for all - thx for replay.

Second: My comments are in green


The biggest disincentive to vets playing with new players is not the TR feats. Its the levelling penalty. Eventually it gets so prohibitive that you can't afford to play with new players who are gonna die and cost you 10%.

Well... I had some other suggestion some time ago for XP bonus only for TR.

Alone: +0 XP
Party 2 ppl: +2% XP
Party 3 ppl: +4% XP
Party 4 ppl: +6% XP
Party 5 ppl: +8% XP
Party 6 ppl: +10% XP

I don't remember if I posted it... :)

Back to the feats...

I like the way your suggestion provides a template for designing the TR feats but most people will actually pick it up for a class/special bonus. Unfortunately The universally useful benefit is gravy on top.

For example: if I pick up the current ranger feat I'm getting it for the +2 stacking bonus to ranged damage, not the +2 to elemental resistances (although its definitely nice and I won't complain). Adding additional useful stuff on top of that is too powerful IMO. This is misunderstood. Doublestrike supposed to be only melee. I already change it in my proposal. But if you talk about +1 dmg for FE, that I must disagree. Now you will have +2 ranged dmg / TR. After my changes you get +2 dmg ranged or +3 dmg ranged against FE per TR. For me it is not too powerful. Especially for ranged combat.

(...)
the ranger feat could have several variants you can chose from
(...)

In my opinion this is completely impossible to implement in DDO. Idea is great, but that will be so much work for Turbine. That why I almost sure that this will never go alive. For example: Do you remember how much time take to add additional Capstone for rouges? And they have already complete alternative capstone system (FvS).

As for the non-free feat: great structure for designing the feat - way too powerful. Better for me is very powerful :) The current paladin one is already pretty tough. OK. I admit, I don't play with TR paladin. Can you explain what is so powerful in ability to gain +2 dmg and to-hit (normal Divine Favor you have on clicky) for a short period of time? And I must remind you that in my proposal duration is scaling with leveling. Giving the clickie virtue and PfE as well as the scaling divine favor is way OTT. No more then other featslot TR feats in proposal.

In my opinion slotneed TR feat supposed to be powerful. For now there is only two way: you use them if you are already lots of feats (Fighter, Monk, Wizard) or they are very powerful (Wizard feat, Monk feat, Barbarian feat all for the same class). What I try to do, it’s to add some power to the same class and give other class very powerful but short time clickie. So in my opinion your example (Paladin feat) is very powerful (like it supposed to be), but not too powerful.

transtemporal
02-24-2011, 06:22 PM
The TR bonus XP idea doesn't encourage TRs to group with new players, it encourages them to level with full dedicated TR groups even more than before. I see what you're trying to do but it makes better sense just to lose the XP penalty for TRs altogether. That releases the XP pressure on TRs and makes people a bit more chilled out.

As for the feats /not signed sorry dude. I agree that the TR feats need a bit of a shake up as some of them are lackluster, but as you've presented them, they're way too powerful. You haven't made an argument for why they should be so powerful either, just that they should be.

Requiro
02-25-2011, 07:47 AM
The TR bonus XP idea doesn't encourage TRs to group with new players, it encourages them to level with full dedicated TR groups even more than before. Maybe, Maybe not. With full party, theoretically you don't bother about -10% XP any more. But in my opinion lots of TR players will never be satisfied. In DDO there’s lots of XP. If you have all high level adventure, you can easily get 20 level after 2nd TR, especially with new ship buff (2-3 and more % XP). With or without +10% XP bonus from not dead. It is just take more time. When Turbine add some high lvl quests, problem will be completly solved

As for the feats /not signed sorry dude. Sorry to hear that :( I agree that the TR feats need a bit of a shake up as some of them are lackluster, but as you've presented them, they're way too powerful. You haven't made an argument for why they should be so powerful either, just that they should be.

Well. In my opinion they are not too powerful. They are just very good feats. You give me an example of ranger free feat and told me that this is too much. I ask you why? +1 dmg FE is changing something? After your 3rd TR (and lots of time spend on it) you can get additional +3 dmg to particular monsters only if you are ranger. and additional 3% double strike with melee weapon. After 3rd TR is not much, especially when you look for example at Wizards or Fighter free TR feat. +6 SP? +3 DC to ANY tactic attack and +3 to hit? Absurd.

And about slotneed TR feat. They supposed to be more powerful, because it take feat slot to use it. You sacrifice lots of your build in most classes. Fighter can take any of them easily, but what about class that don't have additional feats?

And you give me example of Paladin feat, that suposed to be overpowered. But you don't explain to me what is so powerful in +2 to-hit and dmg for 6 min.? And why adding +20 temporally HP and PfE will made this ability overpowered? PfE can be obtain by potion any time you want. And 20 temporally HP is nice but not big deal (one hit by trash monster in mid level)

So I'm sorry that you fell, like my changes give too much power. But I must disagree with you.


My comments in yellow

DrNuegebauer
05-16-2011, 12:19 AM
If you're going to do a "complete overhaul" then you might as well make the sensible change and give the healing amp passive bonus to monks, and the damage one to ? Pallys?

phalaeo
05-16-2011, 12:51 AM
Parts of the Cleric PL you have listed are just as useless as the ones we have now.... the Heal skill is a waste, and maybe 1% of players care about Turn Undead.... the other 99% could care less.

How about this instead?


Class : +1 Turn Undead, +1 DC to Evocation Spells (Divine only)
Special : 1% chance to crit for all healing spells and .10% crit multiplier to all spells (Healing and Damage, only Divine spells)
All : 2% more health when affected by positive energy, 3x/Day Cure Light Wounds

The Class option above would be attractive to most Clerics, even melee-oriented ones,

The Special option benefits Caster Clerics more, but is still useful to melee Clerics

The "All" option is attractive to everyone. I removed the "Negative Healing amp"- it doesn't fit the theme, and Pale Masters have it good already. 3x/Day CLW isn't overpowered- it's a tiny safety net for a melee (who won't have metas), it's a nice, but not OP top off for those TR'ing into a class that would take Max/Empower/Emp. Healing.

jkm
05-16-2011, 01:16 AM
1 - stacking is hard to balance. It is why the passive feats are lame in the first place.

Lets take your barbarian passives first

Frenzy's (which are for all intents and purposes unlimited since the devs don't feel they need to limit them by damage boosts like every other PrE) are extended by 50%
DR is increased by 50% (Base)
Uncanny Dodges are increased by 50%

Now lets take your Sorc one

15% damage increase (+ duration increase) [75% of the capstone or 30% of empower with no spell point cost]
+3 evocation DC (= 3 feats)
90 spell points (= 80% of a feat)

okay, pally?

3 additional LOH's (42% increase)
+3 damage (same as 3 monk lives currently, would stack, limitation on LG is best part of suggestion)

As you can see, it gets out of control in a hurry.

2 - you still aren't dealing with the biggest problem with TR feats - that they inherently favor classes with extra feats (Monk/Wizzy/Fighter). Think about your purchaseable feats as enhancements that are unlocked by X number of passive feats.

Requiro
05-16-2011, 04:48 AM
If you're going to do a "complete overhaul" then you might as well make the sensible change and give the healing amp passive bonus to monks, and the damage one to ? Pallys?

I don't think that Monks need any more power. They are powerful enough in right hands.

Pallys get +1 damage (they are always Lawful Good character)


Parts of the Cleric PL you have listed are just as useless as the ones we have now.... the Heal skill is a waste, and maybe 1% of players care about Turn Undead.... the other 99% could care less

With +6 CL for TU you will be master of the undead quests. So I don’t agree with you :)

How about this instead?


Class : +1 Turn Undead, +1 DC to Evocation Spells (Divine only)
Special : 1% chance to crit for all healing spells and .10% crit multiplier to all spells (Healing and Damage, only Divine spells)
All : 2% more health when affected by positive energy, 3x/Day Cure Light Wounds

The Class option above would be attractive to most Clerics, even melee-oriented ones,

The Special option benefits Caster Clerics more, but is still useful to melee Clerics

The "All" option is attractive to everyone. I removed the "Negative Healing amp"- it doesn't fit the theme, and Pale Masters have it good already. 3x/Day CLW isn't overpowered- it's a tiny safety net for a melee (who won't have metas), it's a nice, but not OP top off for those TR'ing into a class that would take Max/Empower/Emp. Healing.

The "All" option is the only one that should be attractive for everyone. And with 3% more healing (9% when 3 TR) is very attractive especially for melees.

Your change suggestion are nice but can't be done because:

Class: In my opinion +1 Evocation is too much (even only for Divine). With Sorc Free TR feats, you will get +6 DC to your BB. It's sounds like easy button for me.
Special: Is nice. But in my opinion +1 Conjuration (+3 from 3 TR) is much better for all casters not only healing one. (you suggestion will be use only by divine casters)
All: While this is good and not overpowered suggestion, will not fitful the primary rule of Free TR feat: This can’t be active feat.


1 - stacking is hard to balance. It is why the passive feats are lame in the first place.

Lets take your barbarian passives first

Frenzy's (which are for all intents and purposes unlimited since the devs don't feel they need to limit them by damage boosts like every other PrE) are extended by 50%
DR is increased by 50% (Base)
Uncanny Dodges are increased by 50%

So DR on 20 level Barb will be 10/- for free (insted 7/-) or 12/- for 6 AP (insted 9/-). 3/- for everyone else. The best part of this bonus is for low level toons. 3/- is very nice of level 1-6. After is just for flavor. Frenzy's extended, because of it's limitless is only for convenience, and Uncanny Dodgers are use by 2 class (max. 90 sec more per rest). Not very powerful for me.

Now lets take your Sorc one

15% damage increase (+ duration increase) [75% of the capstone or 30% of empower with no spell point cost]
+3 evocation DC (= 3 feats)
90 spell points (= 80% of a feat)

For now you have +3 Evocation and 60 SP. 30 more SP is nothing for 3rd TR toon (10 more SP per TR). 15% more damage (after 3rd TR) is very nice (example: Fireball do 40 avg. damage insted of 35) And yes powerful, but only for Sorc, and you must know that damaging spell in DDO just suck. Yes, they are nice, but very SP draining. (and BTW: Capstone for Sorc suck as well. At 20 level you will use damaging spell occasionally). Compare this with actual Wizards Free TR feats...

okay, pally?

3 additional LOH's (42% increase)
+3 damage (same as 3 monk lives currently, would stack, limitation on LG is best part of suggestion)

I don’t see anything overpowered here. With Monk you get +6 on LG (after 6 TR!!). Same as LOH. You can use them only when you are Pally. And this is only better version of your healing spells.

As you can see, it gets out of control in a hurry.

Hmm... Maybe. But only when you look are this bonuses just on the paper. When you try imagine this on-line, you should find out that only "all" bonus is get by everyone. And after 3 (or 6) TR you are already very powerful (36 point build). It is still need some work for balance. But generally after 6 TR you are already powerful enough to solo every quest in game (even without my changes)

2 - you still aren't dealing with the biggest problem with TR feats - that they inherently favor classes with extra feats (Monk/Wizzy/Fighter). Think about your purchaseable feats as enhancements that are unlocked by X number of passive feats.

Very interesting idea. But maybe better is 4 TR in one class, give you Slotneed TR feat, for free on level 5? You can still take it on level 1-4 and change on Fred after level 5. :rolleyes:



Comments in red. Thanks everyone for comments.