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DethTrip
02-23-2011, 03:00 PM
Below is a list of suggestions for ninja spy III compiled from my own ideas and others replies. Any one or combination of these would be great.

1. While in Greater Shadow Fade (or shadow fade) your critical unarmed attacks drain 1-3 levels from your target
2. +1 enhanced ki generation
3. An instant death assassin type strike that is better than quivering palm
4. Rolling a natural 20 does void IV effect minus the added damage and only on a sneak attack
5. Decrease the cooldown of touch of death
6. Teleport to enemies like orthons and devils do
7. Greater Shadow Fade (50% incorporeality that lasts 2 minutes)
8. Add another 3d6 or 4d6 sneak attack damage
9. Add wisdom modifier to damage
10. Lengthen shadow fade duration (if not creating greater shadow fade)
11. Replace short swords on spy I and II with shuriken abilities
12. Shuriken Manyshot skill that lasts for 10 or 20 seconds
13. Create an instant death shuriken attack for spy II
14. Add to the threat and/or multiplier of a critical hit
15. Add a ddoor ki skill
16. Add a mist creating ki skill
17. Hide-in-plain-sight
18. True seeing
19. Ghost touch

And please fix the TOD ring sets! Make the ninja spy set do something cool and relevant.

I have been adding ideas from replies to the list. I hope these suggestions give the devs enough ideas to get this pre done soon! Please feel free to leave helpful, non abusive thoughts, ideas, and/or suggestions for the Ninja Spy PRE. Thanks.

wax_on_wax_off
02-24-2011, 08:08 AM
I have a few suggestions for ninja spy III. Any one or combination of these would be great.

1. Add another 4d6 sneak attack damage.
2. Decrease the cooldown of touch of death.
3. Add wisdom modifier to damage.
4. +1 enhanced ki generation.
5. An instant death assassin type strike that is better than quivering palm.
6. Greater Shadow Fade (50% incorporeality that lasts 2 minutes).

And please fix the TOD ring sets! Make the ninja spy set do something cool and relevant.

I will try to think up some others. If you have some non-abusive on topic suggestions, please feel free to reply. Thanks.

I imagine we'll see tier 3 following on from tier 2, such as
1. +3d6 sneak attack (for a total of +6d6)
2. Something to do with shortswords (extra offhand proc chance like tempest maybe?)
3. Something to do with sneaking (extra sneaking movement speed, even more Ki regen while sneaking)
4. Some dark move?

DethTrip
02-24-2011, 09:38 AM
I just hope they make it something useful. Shintao gets silver DR bypass and ranged stuns. That's pretty strong.

The reason I came up with 4d6 sneak attack is looking at it as doubling each time. Spy I, 1d6. Spy II doubles to 2d6, Spy III doubles to 4d6. 7d6 isn't too strong imo compared to a capped rogue getting double that at 14d6 for only 2 APs for the capstone.

When you think of a ninja spy, you think of a very sneaky wraith like assassin. He swoops in, unheard or seen, and takes out his enemy quickly with a precision attack and without a sound. Greater Shadow Fade giving the full 50% incorporeality and an instant death type attack follows that flavor imo. Maybe make it so you have to be in Greater Shadow Fade, then you can do the special attack that is an instant kill. It needs to have a higher DC then quivering palm though. I could also see Greater Shadow Fade giving a +15 exceptional bonus to hide and move silently. I want something fairly powerful and fun. Something that goes along with what you would think a ninja spy would do. I hope they create spy III sometime soon as my dark path ninja spy II monk is my favorite to play and I would love to see him be a bit more powerful and more enjoyable to play.

stille_nacht
02-24-2011, 11:02 AM
i think they should do something ninja-y in addition to the standard +3d6 SA, etc.

i would like to see-
All sneak attacks add:
Assassin's Blows- your weapons gain +1 to critical range
Deadly Blows- your weapons gain +1 to crit multiplier.

or something of the sort.

Requiro
02-24-2011, 04:07 PM
More imagination gentlemen

You are the Ninjas. You supposed to be master of shuriken too :)

In my opinion 2 first tiers need some little improvements, to be competitive with Shintao.

Ninja Spy I :

Weapon Focus: Shuriken
additional +2 to-hit and dmg to Shuriken


Ninja Spy II:

Improved Critical: Shuriken
additional +2 to-hit and dmg to Shuriken
Additional ability: uses 5 KI, Solid Fog effect (Don’t affect party members)


And now my suggestion for last Tier on level 18:

Ninja Spy III:


+2 Balance, Hide, Move silently
Improve Critical Threat range for Ninjas Weapons: +2 (for Shortsword and Shuriken)
additional +2 to-hit and dmg to Shuriken
additional Sneak attack: 3d6
(passive) Ninja strike: if your sneak attack was Vorpal attack, you have opportunity to made massive damage to the target: 20d6 + 20 sneak damage and half with Fortitude save (DC 10 + (Monk Level/2) + Wisdom Modifier)
20% faster sneaking
Special ability, Quaver Strike: KI:25, Colddown: 60 sec. Your attack is made with +1 to-hit modifier and ignore enemy fortification.


That will be cool, isn’t it ? :)

Tunst
02-24-2011, 04:19 PM
and while we're at it.
why the hell can i walk on water.
*** IS THAT?!!!
lets get rid of such sillyness and get something useful.

and whats with the shortswords in general.
such uselessness.
2d12vs1d6?

adding wisdom to damage would be kinda nice honestly.
it would allow to build a dark monk using only con, dex, and wis.
getting weapon finesse also, and hitting up the wind stance.
but it would lose Void Strike IV

and yeah, the ToD set is ********.

Chai
02-24-2011, 04:38 PM
Wait wait...

Dark monks are to monks as sorcs are to arcane. It was just accepted fact that dark monk was better than light for the longest time and no one said a word, but hoooo boy did the bawling ever start once light monks got their due. ZOMG a ranged stun!!! We need more DPS to account for that!!!!

4d6 more SA isnt that big a deal eh? Id like to see the demographic of how many rogues LR'd or TR'd to pure the minute the new capstone was added that gave 4d6 SA damage -vs- how many of them had at least a splash in monk, fighter, or both previously.

What kind of numbers will a half elf rogue dilly dark monk hit for SA - second only to pure rogues...just silly.

Tunst
02-24-2011, 04:47 PM
Chai, its just that when you compare the things we get compared to the thing light monks get, they get a TON more.
DR bypass. three time. whoa.
tomb of jade. nice.
kokan do. cool deal.
theres a few other attacks they get that im unaware of, but i do know there are more.
nice.

we get shortswords. useless.
we get shadow fade. not bad.
we get to walk on water. now pardon me, but how in khyber is that relevant?
we get sneak attack. ninja, sneak attack, okay.



and its not tht we have to compensate for whatever, its that they got their 3rd prestige, while we were just left here.
they should've implemented both monk thirds at once

as well as i believe they shouldve implemented both sorc and wiz prestiges at the same time.
because now people believe wizards are soooo much better
in reality, sorcs can get 3 under the wiz DC's
and a 2 sec cooldown, not 5.

/rant

Requiro
02-24-2011, 04:58 PM
But Tunst - what about my proposal? :)

Is that fillfull you demand?

;)

Robi3.0
02-24-2011, 05:00 PM
Extra sneak dice is almost assured. More then likely it will be a total of 6d6.

Helf rogue dill would then have a total of 9d6 which is roughly half a pure rogue assassin. I am okay with that and I am sure other rogues are as well. Also it would be silly to balance an entire classes PrE around one race, especially since everyone knows Helfs suck anyways.

Giving tier 3 ninja spies the ability to use short swords at the same attack speed as fists would be cool, but not broken as fists would still be better.

A dark move or perma ability that would allow ninja spies to ignore miss chances due to incorporeality would fit well with the PnP Ninja base class.


---------------Better Idea-------------------------
huge bonuses to Attack AC and damage when soloing, because everyone knows one ninja is damn near unstoppable, but once he gets with his friends he is about as challenging to fight a running a chainsaw through wet toilet paper.

Tunst
02-24-2011, 05:05 PM
I think things like shurikens and shortswords should be with the Henshin Mystic.
I know not much of it, but judging by the set of +1d6 fire damage, he seems to be the monk of dps.
if it is going to be like that, i believe he should be one who gets more weapons and stuff.

Quaver strike, i believe would be nice if it was more of an ability.
Quaver Strike: Ki cost 25: Cooldown: 1 minute. For the next 15 seconds, all strike made will be made with +1 to hit and ignore enemy fortification.

yeahhhhh
Or even more stuns and stuff.
Maybe give us a variant of Jade, like an earth grab.

and our finishers while we're at it.
they friggin suck.
>.>

and as stated, AC would be really nice.
Ignoring miss chances... tht may be OP unless it does have a cooldown.



Really tho, i just wanna get something useful instead of walking on water. >:(

Robi3.0
02-24-2011, 05:17 PM
I should clarify my ignore miss chances suggestion would basically be the ghost touch ability that comes on weapons. At level 18 that would hardly be OP even if it was a always on ability.

Gulnar13
02-24-2011, 05:18 PM
Water walking it's wonderful in abbot.
Just saying.

stille_nacht
02-24-2011, 05:28 PM
Water walking it's wonderful in abbot.
Just saying.

yeah but i bet they'll "fix" that soon :/, seeing as its supposed to be on touch.... i hope they dont...

Robi3.0
02-24-2011, 05:29 PM
Water walking it's wonderful in abbot.
Just saying.

and in the harbor which is the only other place it seems to work. :(

Chai
02-24-2011, 05:46 PM
Chai, its just that when you compare the things we get compared to the thing light monks get, they get a TON more.
DR bypass. three time. whoa.
tomb of jade. nice.
kokan do. cool deal.
theres a few other attacks they get that im unaware of, but i do know there are more.
nice.

we get shortswords. useless.
we get shadow fade. not bad.
we get to walk on water. now pardon me, but how in khyber is that relevant?
we get sneak attack. ninja, sneak attack, okay.



and its not tht we have to compensate for whatever, its that they got their 3rd prestige, while we were just left here.
they should've implemented both monk thirds at once

as well as i believe they shouldve implemented both sorc and wiz prestiges at the same time.
because now people believe wizards are soooo much better
in reality, sorcs can get 3 under the wiz DC's
and a 2 sec cooldown, not 5.

/rant

Dark monk also gets SA damage, and touch of death, but those are only OK, where all the light path stuff is nice and cool deal?

Previous to light monk revamp it was just accepted fact that dark was superior, but now that light got thrown a bone I see alot of moaning coming out of the dark monk corner. This parallels the fact that it was just accepted that sorcs were just considered superior, and not a peep out of wizards, then wizards got their PRE love and the sorcs begin complaining up a storm.

We know when true balance is achieved when the build enthusiasts start complaining about the class. If they arent, we clearly know that one PRE outshines the others, and they just all jump on it and be quiet, heh.

Zharfie
02-25-2011, 01:06 AM
yeah but i bet they'll "fix" that soon :/, seeing as its supposed to be on touch.... i hope they dont...

I hope they do



still waiting for henshin mystic and hoping it doesn't suck, or I'll be PrEless forever ;)

jkm
02-25-2011, 01:13 AM
if they add 3d6 to the ninja 3 there are a lot of assassins that are going to hit the roof in fury. that is equivalent to taking 11 rogue levels for god's sake. if they do anything other than move tier 2 down to 1d6 and put the other 1d6 at tier 3, they'll have to go back and revamp the rogue PrE's AGAIN.

#5 is the most likely, which would make it just as useless as assassin 3.

shortdevils
02-25-2011, 01:30 AM
i want them to give us a useful debuff along with the extra sneak attack.

i had energy drain in mind.

sephiroth1084
02-25-2011, 02:37 AM
I don't think Ninja III needs anything ridiculous as light and dark monks are pretty close to being balanced right now.

I expect to see 3d6 SA (1d6 to 2d6 can be seen as either adding an additional d6 per tier or doubling the bonus of the previous tier--both modes of progression are possible, which is why a series doesn't really start until you have 3 values to work with), faster sneaking, some further benefit with shortswords (no idea what they'd do here...maybe make shortswords usable with Stunning Fist and ToD?) and...I don't know...

Another activated ability would be nice. Not sure what though. An Assassinate-like attack would be kind of redundant with Quivering Palm and Touch of Death. An improvement to Shadow Fade would likely be kind of OP given how strong Shadow Fade is already. It doesn't need more DPS, as 6d6 SA is pretty big.

Tirisha
02-25-2011, 02:45 AM
Previous to light monk revamp it was just accepted fact that dark was superior, but now that light got thrown a bone I see alot of moaning coming out of the dark monk corner. This parallels the fact that it was just accepted that sorcs were just considered superior, and not a peep out of wizards, then wizards got their PRE love and the sorcs begin complaining up a storm.

We know when true balance is achieved when the build enthusiasts start complaining about the class. If they arent, we clearly know that one PRE outshines the others, and they just all jump on it and be quiet, heh.

Eh even before the Revamp I knew a lot more light monks than I did dark. An accepted fact would be that dark monks were better dps than light monks but ultimately the light punch and all the light finishers contribute far more too solo play and group play than a little more dps could.

Also I don't think it's the OPs intention to complain about imbalance between pre's as it is he's trying to help create ideas for the Ninja spy 3 which the dev's have already mention was on there mind for the short future.

In regards to the pre, I would be more interested in seeing TOD work with a shortsword than most anything else. Simple fact is the wpn is just not viable on a monk; though making a shortsword build would be flavorful, not being able to use TOD would be downright irresponsible for a dark monk since they don't have much else going for them.

Tunst
02-25-2011, 03:07 AM
longer shadow fade for same amount of ki.
with the same cooldown.
yeahhhh.

and to whomever quoted me, i dont mean sneak attack and touch of death are just okay, i mean they make sense being given to a dark monk and those arent the ones i find stupid.
walking on water is stupid
so is shortswords, but with the new epic shortswords from the event, i will be crafting a craft and running dps tests.

sephiroth1084
02-25-2011, 03:24 AM
The shortsword abilities are nice for the period in which Banishing works well. If they worked with ToD and Stunning Fist some epic ones would be worth using. They're also decent, I guess, if you're really concerned about AC since you can throw some combination of Insight +4, +2 Dex, +2 Wis on a pair for those situations in which you need it.

Also, the benefits are decent if you're multiclassed.

The ability to walk on water is interesting, and useful in a couple of places (Abbot is the biggie). If it were fixed to work on all water (currently broken in a lot of places), it would be a convenience.

Longer Shadow Fade would be nice, but I'd rather get something new and interesting.

waterboytkd
02-25-2011, 03:52 AM
I think Ninja 3 should gain the 3d6 sneak attack and all the random skill boosts that it got at the other tiers. Continuing the progression of the utility spell-like ki ablities, maybe they could get Dimension Door for 30 ki (where the hell did that ninja go?).

As for the shortswords, they should get the ability to perform ToD and Stunning Fist with them, gain the unarmed attack speed with them, gain full str bonus to the offhand instead of half, and negate the TWF attack penalty. What that would essentially do is make them unarmed, except piercing instead of bludgeoning, and 1d6, 19-20/x2 instead of 2d10 20/x2. And, Ninja's may actually consider GS crafting then, too.

Really, shortswords need a lot for a monk to consider using them over unarmed. And if a monk wouldn't consider it, then the bonuses Ninja's get to shortswords are just garbage, and only useful for niche builds.

Soleran
02-25-2011, 04:22 AM
Dark monk also gets SA damage, and touch of death, but those are only OK, where all the light path stuff is nice and cool deal?



Since this is specifically about Ninja PRE touch of death has nothing to do with it.

Another thought scrap SA damage boost and give ninja 3 x3 crits if they are in a position to do sneak attack damage:)

Chai
02-25-2011, 09:29 AM
Since this is specifically about Ninja PRE touch of death has nothing to do with it.

Another thought scrap SA damage boost and give ninja 3 x3 crits if they are in a position to do sneak attack damage:)

Orly? How many people are pure monk, ninja spy, and dont have touch of death? It has everything to do with it.

I could see giving them a better crit range like kensai, so with imp crit theyd be 18-20 x2 with wraps.

Chai
02-25-2011, 09:36 AM
Eh even before the Revamp I knew a lot more light monks than I did dark. An accepted fact would be that dark monks were better dps than light monks but ultimately the light punch and all the light finishers contribute far more too solo play and group play than a little more dps could.

Also I don't think it's the OPs intention to complain about imbalance between pre's as it is he's trying to help create ideas for the Ninja spy 3 which the dev's have already mention was on there mind for the short future.

In regards to the pre, I would be more interested in seeing TOD work with a shortsword than most anything else. Simple fact is the wpn is just not viable on a monk; though making a shortsword build would be flavorful, not being able to use TOD would be downright irresponsible for a dark monk since they don't have much else going for them.

A little more DPS? A little?

You do realize that the shroud speed records were set by groups full of dark monks with a healer and a caster, right? I dont think we are talking about a_little_bit_more DPS, heh.

Dark is significantly higher DPS than light. Light is the enabler of stun auto crit damage and utility PRE.

Most people will contend that a pure monk should only go handwraps. No other weapon compares. Adding short swords really didnt help but it didnt change anything either.

I think instead of making TOD work with short sword they should get some ability that ONLY works with short sword. It would be more of a choice then and not the best of both worlds all the time.

Calebro
02-25-2011, 09:39 AM
The problem that I see with it is that the PrE basically has everything that the PrC had at it's apex, and it has it all by tier 2.
3d6 or 4d6 more SA would just be too much IMO.
Consider:
With 3d6 more SA at tier 3, an half-elf ninja 3 with rogue dilly would have the SA dice of a 17th level rogue. With 4d6 at tier 3, it would be the equivalent of a 19th level rogue. Either way, that's way too much.
They should have made it a simple 1d6 per tier, as the progression scaled similarly in the original PrC.
With that in mind, I'm just not sure what they should do for tier 3.

Cyr
02-25-2011, 09:40 AM
I assume it will be +3d6 sneak damage.

If they want shortswords to be a viable attack form for a monk with 18+ levels of monk then they need to have ninja 3 enable ToD to be used with shortswords.

ckorik
02-25-2011, 09:50 AM
walking on water is stupid


Perhaps it is stupid - but one of the biggest (real life) feats associated with ninja is the walking on water trick.

It's so legendary Mythbusters tried to figure out if it was even possible.

RL ninja myths: sneaky - hide in shadows - camouflage, magic (disappear like shadow fade), short sword (kanto) use, walk on water, climb walls, etc.

They are the batman :)

Calebro
02-25-2011, 10:01 AM
Perhaps it is stupid - but one of the biggest (real life) feats associated with ninja is the walking on water trick.

It's so legendary Mythbusters tried to figure out if it was even possible.

RL ninja myths: sneaky - hide in shadows - camouflage, magic (disappear like shadow fade), short sword (kanto) use, walk on water, climb walls, etc.

They are the batman :)

And it was part of the original PrC, although it wasn't called Dance of teh Water Spider, or whatever.

Water Walk (Su): A ninja spy of 5th level or higher can use water walk to walk on any liquid as if it were firm ground. The ninja must concentrate (as a standard action) to perform this ability, and thus can only take a single move or move-equivalent action each round while water walking. The effect lasts for 1 round per ninja level.

Earliest entry to Ninja Spy was at 8.
8 + 5 = 13
They get it here at 12

lethargos
02-25-2011, 10:02 AM
The problem that I see with it is that the PrE basically has everything that the PrC had at it's apex, and it has it all by tier 2.
3d6 or 4d6 more SA would just be too much IMO.
Consider:
With 3d6 more SA at tier 3, an half-elf ninja 3 with rogue dilly would have the SA dice of a 17th level rogue. With 4d6 at tier 3, it would be the equivalent of a 19th level rogue. Either way, that's way too much.
They should have made it a simple 1d6 per tier, as the progression scaled similarly in the original PrC.
With that in mind, I'm just not sure what they should do for tier 3.

Very nice example. I think too it would be balanced at d6 per tier. I love my half elven 5d6 SA, but i have a halfling too and always gringe when i do the comparison. I think rogue was supposed to be the ultimate SA king, as was halfling. Turbine introduced some powercreep in races and pre`s and people lose sight on one of the best things in DDO: pretty good balance.

I think ninja spy III needs a offensive ability like kukando/tomb of jade. And if they are gonna keep the shortswords, make monk abilities work with em (stunning fist included, you can nervepinch with shortswords!)

Soleran
02-25-2011, 11:15 AM
Orly? How many people are pure monk, ninja spy, and dont have touch of death? It has everything to do with it.



No, it really doesn't since the two aren't tied together.

Just like your comments using a pre nerf shroud record to attempt to validate your position since tod is nerfed handily.

If ninja spy ended with 3d6 sa which seems logical thats fine in progression but I would prefer a way to boost x3 crit mod either way we'll see eventually.

Calebro
02-25-2011, 11:46 AM
No, it really doesn't since the two aren't tied together.

Just like your comments using a pre nerf shroud record to attempt to validate your position since tod is nerfed handily.

If ninja spy ended with 3d6 sa which seems logical thats fine in progression but I would prefer a way to boost x3 crit mod either way we'll see eventually.

Not to split hairs, but that wasn't a nerf. That was a fix. There's a big difference between the two.

ToD was originally released as a single strike. There was no off hand attack with it. That single strike broke your attack chain, and that's exactly what was intended.
The changes to the combat system which introduced a % chance to hit with your off hand on every attack nullified the mechanism that made it a single strike.
It was broken.
The bug that allowed even more strikes with it was a completely separate and unrelated issue form that fact that it was never meant to strike more than once.
That specific bug only amplified the issue at hand.

So it went from working as intended --> to broken --> to broken and bugged --> to fixed.

Should he use the bugged... and also at the time broken... example to clarify his point?
No.
Should you attempt to play it down as a huge nerf in which you lost everything and became gimped at the same time, and then use that as your basis for argument to strengthen your own point?
No.

If you're going to call him out for using a poor example, then you should be clear about what happened as well.

Furthermore, yes he should lump ninja spies and ToD together. Sure, the two could hypothetically be taken independently of one another. But the fact remains that Ninja Spy is the dark monk's PrE, and ToD is the dark monk's attack. They hypothetically *could* be taken independent of each other, but they *never* are. Thus, they certainly can be lumped together.

Tirisha
02-25-2011, 12:16 PM
A little more DPS? A little?

You do realize that the shroud speed records were set by groups full of dark monks with a healer and a caster, right? I dont think we are talking about a_little_bit_more DPS, heh.

Dark is significantly higher DPS than light. Light is the enabler of stun auto crit damage and utility PRE.

Most people will contend that a pure monk should only go handwraps. No other weapon compares. Adding short swords really didnt help but it didnt change anything either.

I think instead of making TOD work with short sword they should get some ability that ONLY works with short sword. It would be more of a choice then and not the best of both worlds all the time.

Well a little I admit is relative, it's certainly not that much more anymore and on devil bosses I'd contend that light monks are better dps with the right wraps. But I still contend that's it's insignificant compared too what the light punch and finishing moves provide.

the ability that they give Shortsword only would have to be extremely powerful to even consider using shortswords, even if TOD worked on shortswords you would be gimping yourself by using them at all.

Tirisha
02-25-2011, 12:23 PM
Not to split hairs, but that wasn't a nerf. That was a fix. There's a big difference between the two.

ToD was originally released as a single strike. There was no off hand attack with it. That single strike broke your attack chain, and that's exactly what was intended.
The changes to the combat system which introduced a % chance to hit with your off hand on every attack nullified the mechanism that made it a single strike.
It was broken.
The bug that allowed even more strikes with it was a completely separate and unrelated issue form that fact that it was never meant to strike more than once.
That specific bug only amplified the issue at hand.



Hmmm before the TWF nerf TOD did proc with your off hand and didn't break my attack chain when I used it. I'm curious were you got your information on that.

Calebro
02-25-2011, 12:25 PM
Hmmm before the TWF nerf TOD did proc with your off hand and didn't break my attack chain when I used it. I'm curious were you got your information on that.

No it didn't.

Tirisha
02-25-2011, 12:26 PM
They are the batman :)

Correction.

Batman is the Ninja:p

HellsChaos
02-25-2011, 12:28 PM
while I agree that there was not enough outcry for light monks being gimped for the longest time, what we are seeing here is all those who went dark (bc light was not at par) realizing that dark path has some major flaws..and uselessness.
I agree with some of the additions suggested such as:
1. remove walk on water.
2. add wisdom damage bonuses
3. add shuriken specialization...that was an awesome suggestion and completely relevant to the concept of being a ninja
4. add additional sneak attack OR make a one hit 'coup de gras', which is something ninjas are good at (or something that doesnt require building way to much key and way over complicated to produce).

Anyway, thats just MHO.
On a side note, I am not very pleased with having to do combos in the first place...i think that if you got the required ki, just be able to use the ability...now this, of course, would reduce the effectiveness...but I would think that this trade off would make playing a monk more enjoyable and less crippling to the fingers! Arthritis is something I would like to avoid ;)

Tirisha
02-25-2011, 12:30 PM
No it didn't.

Hmm.... maybe I'm getting my Us mixed up can anybody else verify this?

Calebro
02-25-2011, 12:38 PM
Hmm.... maybe I'm getting my Us mixed up can anybody else verify this?

Prior to U5 it was a single strike that interrupted your chain.
Post U5, when the off hand mechanics were changed, was when you were seeing multiple procs. Shortly thereafter the bug was noticed. It was recreatable at any time you wished to produce up to 3 procs fairly consistently, sometimes going as high as 5 if you were lucky and timed it just right.
Prior to the bug, it was a fun little broken toy that, while not WAI, wasn't game breaking enough to warrant Dev attention immediately.
Once the bug became more commonly known and widespread, it became time for the Devs to step in and fix it with what you all called a nerf.

It wasn't a nerf. It was a fix.

Soleran
02-25-2011, 01:27 PM
Not to split hairs, but that wasn't a nerf. That was a fix. There's a big difference between the two.



You're right there is no splitting of hairs, the nerf was the change to resists for ToD not the number of strikes which was obviously not correct.

Calebro
02-25-2011, 04:52 PM
You're right there is no splitting of hairs, the nerf was the change to resists for ToD not the number of strikes which was obviously not correct.

And that was put in place to create a situation where the strike would deal 500, 750, or 1000 damage.
Previously, it would deal 500 damage, period.
You still won out on the deal.
It's not a nerf if you end up better off than you started.

Veriden
02-25-2011, 05:01 PM
True to ninja form, ninja spy 3 is out..you just can't see it.

nebogloee
02-26-2011, 01:44 PM
I had one of these threads up a while back - check it out: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300166

Here was on of the best observations from the thread:




Personally, I’d like the set bonus to become +1 Ki generation (So I could ditch the Oremi’s set) and Sneak Attack +5 (So I could ditch Tharne’s Goggles for something better.)

As for the PrE:

No more idiotic prereqs Cause that seems to be Turbine’s downfall with their PrE designs.
Enhanced Quivering Palm: Costs the same, counts as a dark move, shares timer with the QP feat, DC is now 10 + Monk Level + WIS mod, does the single strike animation. Does 30 points of negative energy damage per monk level if mob is warded from insta death spells.
Enhanced Sneak Attack Damage: +3d6 for a total of +6d6 damage.
Improved ki generation on Sneak Attacks: Should probably be divided up over the 3 tiers but it would be nice to finally break the ******** Oremi’s + Elegant Crane chokehold on decent ki generation.


I really want Wis modifier to damage or hit - give another incentive for dark path not to dump wis. Improved ki gen would be great - after those big boss battles light monks have a full bar of ki and dark monks are fresh out - give us a good reason to dump the oremi/crane setup for something more path specific.

Shortswords will never be a better option than HW. Not without making them OP. We will never see SF or ToD work with swords. You ever seen a stunning +10 shortsword? We are blunt objects of destruction, 2d10 with full offhand, Shortswords are for xclassing. Give me an extra 6d6, heck 8d6 with SW and I will still use HW. Please stop with the SW suggestions - they will just water down an already watered down pre. Oh and Turbine, fix the tod set already!

Calebro
02-26-2011, 02:08 PM
I had one of these threads up a while back - check it out: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=300166

Here was on of the best observations from the thread:




Personally, I’d like the set bonus to become +1 Ki generation (So I could ditch the Oremi’s set) and Sneak Attack +5 (So I could ditch Tharne’s Goggles for something better.)

As for the PrE:

* No more idiotic prereqs Cause that seems to be Turbine’s downfall with their PrE designs.
* Enhanced Quivering Palm: Costs the same, counts as a dark move, shares timer with the QP feat, DC is now 10 + Monk Level + WIS mod, does the single strike animation. Does 30 points of negative energy damage per monk level if mob is warded from insta death spells.
* Enhanced Sneak Attack Damage: +3d6 for a total of +6d6 damage.
* Improved ki generation on Sneak Attacks: Should probably be divided up over the 3 tiers but it would be nice to finally break the ******** Oremi’s + Elegant Crane chokehold on decent ki generation.


I really want Wis modifier to damage or hit - give another incentive for dark path not to dump wis. Improved ki gen would be great - after those big boss battles light monks have a full bar of ki and dark monks are fresh out - give us a good reason to dump the oremi/crane setup for something more path specific.

Shortswords will never be a better option than HW. Not without making them OP. We will never see SF or ToD work with swords. You ever seen a stunning +10 shortsword? We are blunt objects of destruction, 2d10 with full offhand, Shortswords are for xclassing. Give me an extra 6d6, heck 8d6 with SW and I will still use HW. Please stop with the SW suggestions - they will just water down an already watered down pre. Oh and Turbine, fix the tod set already!

You call *that* one of the best observations from the thread? They aren't even good ideas, let alone what anyone should consider the best. I'll take them in order here.

* A small amount of idiotic prereqs are a good thing. They force you to choose between taking a PrE and optimizing 100% without consequence.

* Enhanced quivering palm idea isn't terrible, but it shouldn't do anywhere NEAR as much damage as suggested.

* As stated earlier, 6d6 sneak attack damage is way too much. Most monks would have the equivalent of an 11th level rogue's sneak attack, but at a higher attack speed, which would skew the actual SA damage into a higher proximity than the psuedo-eleven levels would appear. Half-elf monks would have the equivalent of a 17th level rogue's sneak attack, with the extra attack speed, this means that their pseudo-sneak attack damage would be higher than a non-assassin rogue with the first capstone. MORE sneak attack damage than a capped rogue. That's just WAY too much. Anyone that thinks this is a good idea is delusional. **see below

* The reason that dark monks struggle with ki generation is because ToD is so expensive. ToD is so expensive because it's extremely powerful. Struggling to continue to power an ability that is extremely powerful and can be used consistently is called balance. Casters have to use their mana wisely. Dark monks have to manage their ki wisely. The reason that light monks have less problems with this is because their abilites aren't as powerful.

* Wis mod to damage? Sorry, but if rogue's can't have the Shadow Blade feat, then why should monks get Wis to damage? At least there's a D&D counterpart to the rogue's claim. No such ability exists in D&D for Wis to damage that I'm aware of.

** Anyone curious how I came by that:
A non-assassin capped rogue with the first capstone gets 216 attacks per minute, at 10d6 sneak attack dice each attack.
218*10 = 2180 d6 sneak attack dice over one minute.
An monk gets 262 attacks per minute. An half elven monk with rogue dilittante, under the extra 3d6 sneak attack suggested for tier 3 for a total of 9d6 sneak attack dice would get:
262*9 = 2358 d6 sneak attack dice over that same minute.

A monk should never, under ANY circumstances, receive more sneak attack dice in any certain length of combat than a rogue gets. That's the reason an extra 3d6 would be overpowered.

Soleran
02-26-2011, 02:56 PM
** Anyone curious how I came by that:
A non-assassin capped rogue with the first capstone gets 216 attacks per minute, at 10d6 sneak attack dice each attack.
218*10 = 2180 d6 sneak attack dice over one minute.
An monk gets 262 attacks per minute. An half elven monk with rogue dilittante, under the extra 3d6 sneak attack suggested for tier 3 for a total of 9d6 sneak attack dice would get:
262*9 = 2358 d6 sneak attack dice over that same minute.

A monk should never, under ANY circumstances, receive more sneak attack dice in any certain length of combat than a rogue gets. That's the reason an extra 3d6 would be overpowered.

You don't balance a class by the abilities of ONE race with ONE specific build or when are we going to see the HOrc nerfs across the board, that's a seriously fail point. Rogues have THE highest dps in game on non fort mobs by such a huge amount it won't even matter, aside from that 3d6 tier 3 ninja pre whatever good for dark monks.



And that was put in place to create a situation where the strike would deal 500, 750, or 1000 damage.
Previously, it would deal 500 damage, period.
You still won out on the deal.
It's not a nerf if you end up better off than you started.

Man you like to marginalize, it was also given negative energy so certain mobs are immune as well as given saves. It was nerfed, you may like to dance and sing and say this and that however it doesn't change the fact Eladrin had said WAI then not only changed the resists to it but also made it negative energy instead of untyped. It's called a nerf from where it was in game, the only non nerf was the change to the number of strikes.

Calebro
02-26-2011, 03:09 PM
You don't balance a class by the abilities of ONE race with ONE specific build or when are we going to see the HOrc nerfs across the board, that's a seriously fail point. Rogues have THE highest dps in game on non fort mobs by such a huge amount it won't even matter, aside from that 3d6 tier 3 ninja pre whatever good for dark monks.
Yes you certainly can.
There is no situation where a monk should receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue. This is not something that should need to be argued. If there is ever any situation where a monk receives more sneak attack dice than a rogue, there is a very serious problem.
Adding 3d6 sneak attack dice at tier 3 would create a situation where a monk could receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue, and it is therefore a HORRIBLE idea.


Man you like to marginalize, it was also given negative energy so certain mobs are immune as well as given saves. It was nerfed, you may like to dance and sing and say this and that however it doesn't change the fact Eladrin had said WAI then not only changed the resists to it but also made it negative energy instead of untyped. It's called a nerf from where it was in game, the only non nerf was the change to the number of strikes.

We disagreed last year when we discussed it, and we disagree here.
No amount of debating the issue will change either of our minds, so there is no more reason to discuss it.

nebogloee
02-26-2011, 03:11 PM
You call *that* one of the best observations from the thread? They aren't even good ideas, let alone what anyone should consider the best. I'll take them in order here.

* A small amount of idiotic prereqs are a good thing. They force you to choose between taking a PrE and optimizing 100% without consequence.

So the "idiotic" small 4 debuffs that no one uses is a sign of good design? If they are not going to make them relevant, toss em out, because as of right now, ToD is one of the most expensive AP lines in the game. Without it, no one would roll a dark monk, with it, most darks cannot fit the void line. So that leaves light with all its goodies and reasonable AP access to the void line.


* Enhanced quivering palm idea isn't terrible, but it shouldn't do anywhere NEAR as much damage as suggested.

Yeah, some balance on the amount may have to be considered.


* As stated earlier, 6d6 sneak attack damage is way too much. Most monks would have the equivalent of an 11th level rogue's sneak attack, but at a higher attack speed, which would skew the actual SA damage into a higher proximity than the psuedo-eleven levels would appear. Half-elf monks would have the equivalent of a 17th level rogue's sneak attack, with the extra attack speed, this means that their pseudo-sneak attack damage would be higher than a non-assassin rogue with the first capstone. MORE sneak attack damage than a capped rogue. That's just WAY too much. Anyone that thinks this is a good idea is delusional. **see below

Seems like you forget that a rouge can use the helf dilly too. And the mechanic/thief acro are not supposed to be top sneakers. Why compare a helf dark monk to a non helf non assassin? Apples to Apples Please.


* The reason that dark monks struggle with ki generation is because ToD is so expensive. ToD is so expensive because it's extremely powerful. Struggling to continue to power an ability that is extremely powerful and can be used consistently is called balance. Casters have to use their mana wisely. Dark monks have to manage their ki wisely. The reason that light monks have less problems with this is because their abilites aren't as powerful.

Dark ki generation requirements for bosses can only met with oremis/crane/fire. You need all of them to keep tod,2 earth, 1 elect, iron first, earth finisher (or more) on timer. Even if they rework the tod set, without compensation for the loss of oremis, most darks will not switch.


* Wis mod to damage? Sorry, but if rogue's can't have the Shadow Blade feat, then why should monks get Wis to damage? At least there's a D&D counterpart to the rogue's claim. No such ability exists in D&D for Wis to damage that I'm aware of.

Yeah, I believe some ability did exist for wis to hit, but damage would be nice. But if the rougues haven't got it, then no one should.

One thing that people forget in the dark monk to rouge comparison is that dark monks, a la ToD, tend to pull agro. The sneak dice they get is by no means the largest part of their damage, ToD is. And that gets mobs/bosses attention, not to mention its hard to keep the threat down on a dark monk. I like a lot of the suggestions I have seen thrown around: flavor, dps, uniqueness - these are all things that make the game more fun, hopefully turbine can give us some more info on the pre's (new and old) as update 8.2/9 approaches over the next couple of months. Just keep the suggestions rolling and the new threads appearing, maybe Turbine will take notice :)

Calebro
02-26-2011, 03:16 PM
Seems like you forget that a rouge can use the helf dilly too. And the mechanic/thief acro are not supposed to be top sneakers. Why compare a helf dark monk to a non helf non assassin? Apples to Apples Please.

Wrong.
The half elf dilly does not apply if you have levels in the class that the dilly simulates. IE: They do not stack.
So a half elf rogue can't also have the rogue dilly.
Well, he can have it, but it's wasted and doesn't stack.

And as I stated in my last post while you were posting, it doesn't matter what kind of a rogue we compare. There is NO SITUATION where ANY monk should receive more sneak attack dice than ANY rogue.
Sneak attack is the staple of the rogue, but some pure monks are better at it than some pure rogues?
That's ridiculous.

nebogloee
02-26-2011, 03:36 PM
Wrong.
The half elf dilly does not apply if you have levels in the class that the dilly simulates. IE: They do not stack.
So a half elf rogue can't also have the rogue dilly.
Well, he can have it, but it's wasted and doesn't stack.

And as I stated in my last post while you were posting, it doesn't matter what kind of a rogue we compare. There is NO SITUATION where ANY monk should receive more sneak attack dice than ANY rogue.
Sneak attack is the staple of the rogue, but some pure monks are better at it than some pure rogues?
That's ridiculous.
Sorry, forgots about that.

Easy fix: make the helf rouge dilly not stack with NS sneak attack.

But imho, this is the nature of the racial creep. As a helf rouge dilly, you are part rogue, and with the right class, feat, enhancement line, why not be competitive with the lesser sneak rouges? They have other things that are supposed to make up for the lack of top rouge sneak dps (not to mention thier choice of helf dillies). But again this is weird comparison, to make an analogy: barbs should have the most strength of any build. But that may not be the case with a horc fighter vs a half barb. Does that mean the fighter or halfling are broken? The newest couple of the races change the balance quite a bit, there are definitely better races for certain classes. Have we tried comparing a halfling cunning/guile rouge sneak to the predicted helf dark monk sneak?

Calebro
02-26-2011, 03:44 PM
As a helf rouge dilly, you are part rogue, and with the right class, feat, enhancement line, why not be competitive with the lesser sneak rouges?
<snip>
Have we tried comparing a halfling cunning/guile rouge sneak to the predicted helf dark monk sneak?
Competitive is fine. Superior is the problem.
And no, I haven't done that comparison, because that comparison doesn't matter.
The best monk should have less sneak attack than the worst rogue, so the optimal halfling rogue is inconsequential. It doesn't have to be a lot less, but it should surely be less.

Soleran
02-26-2011, 03:47 PM
Yes you certainly can.
There is no situation where a monk should receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue. This is not something that should need to be argued. If there is ever any situation where a monk receives more sneak attack dice than a rogue, there is a very serious problem.
Adding 3d6 sneak attack dice at tier 3 would create a situation where a monk could receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue, and it is therefore a HORRIBLE idea.

That's clearly your opinion, so one race, pre, class can beat a non sa focused rogue who didn't take assassin for more SA damage, there is no problem with that. You're math is off from what's been shown recently for monk attack speed so your math debate holds zero value http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144&highlight=swing+speed will give you an idea of what you should formulate to create your next sa dps discussion.


We disagreed last year when we discussed it, and we disagree here.
No amount of debating the issue will change either of our minds, so there is no more reason to discuss it.

I'm not debating, I'm correcting you. I stated facts you presented half truth/information until I brought up those facts which you attempted to make value statements for, I wasn't here to debate or talk about benefits just correcting your information presented.


As a helf rouge dilly, you are part rogue, and with the right class, feat, enhancement line, why not be competitive with the lesser sneak rouges?
<snip>
Have we tried comparing a halfling cunning/guile rouge sneak to the predicted helf dark monk sneak?

Halflings can get as high as 8 sa damage per strike , Helf's get 3d6 or about 10.5 damage per swing, this is of course before fort is applied.

Calebro
02-26-2011, 03:52 PM
I'm not debating, I'm correcting you. I stated facts you presented half truth/information until I brought up those facts which you attempted to make value statements for, I wasn't here to debate or talk about benefits just correcting your information presented.

Your "corrections" are based on a misinterpretation of Eladrin's [or Tolero's, I forget which] words.
Every time the two of us have any sort of contact we end up arguing about something. It's tiring. I'll be adding you to my ignore list because I don't like to constantly argue about the same things with the same people all of the time.

edit:
And just so we're clear, as I've already told you in the past:
The question that was asked of Eladrin was something to the effect of "how is ToD going to work under the new system?"
When Eladrin stated that ToD would have a chance to proc on off hand attacks, he was answering the question as it was posed.
As ToD was created as a single strike, there was no question whether or not a second strike was intended when it was created. It was not intended.
The new mechanics changed the way that ToD worked, but they did not change what was intended when the strike was created.
The implied question was whether or not this would be considered WAI. Eladrin did not answer the question that was implied, because that question was never asked. He simply answered the question as it was posed.

But all the monks assumed he answered the implied question and use that implication for their arguments.
Don't assume. Just read the question as it was asked, and read the answer as it was given.

So your "correction" is simply wrong.

nebogloee
02-26-2011, 03:58 PM
These seems to happen in so many class forums. Most people argue with a bias. I myself am biased. My main is a monk, and hes the funnest thing to play imo,so I argue with that in mind. But I have seen it on the ranger forums, rogue forums, and others. Someone with a pet class does everything possible to protect their class's superiority by tainting good discussions on other class threads. Bring dps calcs proper, make reasonable comparisons, or complain about the gimp nature of a specific build in that class's forums.

Soleran
02-26-2011, 04:00 PM
These seems to happen in so many class forums. Most people argue with a bias. I myself am biased. My main is a monk, and hes the funnest thing to play imo,so I argue with that in mind. But I have seen it on the ranger forums, rogue forums, and others. Someone with a pet class does everything possible to protect their class's superiority by tainting good discussions on other class threads. Bring dps calcs proper, make reasonable comparisons, or complain about the gimp nature of a specific build in that class's forums.

I agree with you, it would just be nice if the opposing side was at least accurate in the information they used to attempt to bash posts or suggestions.

Calebro
02-26-2011, 04:16 PM
Oh, and the numbers are wrong are they?
Look at the left of that chart. It says Swing Animations Per Minute.
Animations is the key word. Animations applies to main hand. So add 80% for off hand, and then add % chance for doublestrike. If anything, my numbers are low for the monk.

Soleran
02-26-2011, 08:09 PM
Oh, and the numbers are wrong are they?
Look at the left of that chart. It says Swing Animations Per Minute.
Animations is the key word. Animations applies to main hand. So add 80% for off hand, and then add % chance for doublestrike. If anything, my numbers are low for the monk.


93.2 unarmed vs 86.7 twf unhasted of course.

waterboytkd
02-26-2011, 08:57 PM
And as I stated in my last post while you were posting, it doesn't matter what kind of a rogue we compare. There is NO SITUATION where ANY monk should receive more sneak attack dice than ANY rogue.
Sneak attack is the staple of the rogue, but some pure monks are better at it than some pure rogues?
That's ridiculous.

This is the basis of your argument for why Ninja Spy III should not at 3d6 Sneak Attack. If this were true, your arguments would hold a lot of water. This isn't true.

Just because Sneak Attack is the main way that rogues deal damage does not mean that a rogue who completely neglects their Sneak Attack should be doing better Sneak Attack than any non-Rogue. That was not 3rd edition. One of the best aspects of third edition was that classes were incredibly customizable and a Rogue was not the same as a Rogue, not every Fighter looked the same, and even very linear classes like Barbarian could play very differently.

So, a monk that takes a PrE that is supposed to make it more like a Rogue (Sneak Attack-wise) AND takes a race that makes it more like a rogue (again, Sneak Attack-wise) should, in fact, compete with a Rogue Sneak Attack-wise. And it definately should surpass a Rogue who does absolutely nothing to improve their Sneak Attack at all.

I believe the example was made: a Barbarian's "staple" is his high strength score. So a Barbarian who in no way takes any feats/enhancements to boost his strength should have a higher strength than any other non-barbarian build? Even ones taking Horc? I mean, that's just stupid. And, it completely destroys the customizable aspect to the 3rd edition building process.

PS Someone mentioned that they didn't like that now, with Helf, when they think about getting the most Sneak Attack, they cringe because Helfs beat Halflings. I just wanted to point out: Helf Rogues do not take Helf Dilly Rogue. If they did, they screwed up. That Dilly Sneak Attack won't stack with Rogue Sneak Attack. Halfling Rogues (especially ones that take the Assassin PrE and the Capstone for +4d6) are the absolute kings of Sneak Attack. And against any critter without fort, are commonly believed to be the absolute kings of dps.

Calebro
02-27-2011, 05:41 AM
So, a monk that takes a PrE that is supposed to make it more like a Rogue (Sneak Attack-wise) AND takes a race that makes it more like a rogue (again, Sneak Attack-wise) should, in fact, compete with a Rogue Sneak Attack-wise. And it definately should surpass a Rogue who does absolutely nothing to improve their Sneak Attack at all.

I believe the example was made: a Barbarian's "staple" is his high strength score. So a Barbarian who in no way takes any feats/enhancements to boost his strength should have a higher strength than any other non-barbarian build? Even ones taking Horc? I mean, that's just stupid. And, it completely destroys the customizable aspect to the 3rd edition building process.

This is where we absolutely disagree.
A pure rogue who does absolutely nothing to increase his sneak attack should absolutely do more sneak attack dice over any given period of time than anyone of any other class, no matter how that player built his character. Race and PrE included.
The trade off that a rogue makes to be top of the DPS charts is squishiness factor and lack of defenses. That's called balance.
The trade off that a monk makes to receive all of his defensive goodies and general survivability is lower base DPS. That's called balance.
Giving any monk the ability to surpass a rogue's sneak attack dice absolutely destroys any semblance of balance of the class.
Giving 3d6 more SA at tier 3 will break the class in the same way that ToD broke the class before it was fixed. We saw no dark monks before because dark monks sucked. Then they added ToD and we saw many more dark monks because it was balanced again. Then ToD broke and we saw nothing BUT dark monks. Then they fixed ToD and we saw less dark monks, but still a lot. Now if they add 3d6 more sneak attack, we will see nothing BUT dark monks again because they will be survivable DPS leaders. Survivable and DPS Leaders should be mutually exclusive.

There is literally not a SINGLE level wherein a monk does not receive some sort of defensive or utility ability to make him more survivable as a granted class ability. Not one single level.
Adding 3d6 more sneak attack at tier 3 and making dark monks top tier DPS again would be a mistake.

The example of a Barbarian's Str score was a poor one. Barbs favor Con. Barbs only have a higher Str when raged. When not raged, a Ftr has a higher Str.

Soleran
02-27-2011, 06:23 AM
This is where we absolutely disagree.
A pure rogue who does absolutely nothing to increase his sneak attack should absolutely do more sneak attack dice over any given period of time than anyone of any other class, no matter how that player built his character. Race and PrE included.
The trade off that a rogue makes to be top of the DPS charts is squishiness factor and lack of defenses. That's called balance.
The trade off that a monk makes to receive all of his defensive goodies and general survivability is lower base DPS. That's called balance.
Giving any monk the ability to surpass a rogue's sneak attack dice absolutely destroys any semblance of balance of the class.
Giving 3d6 more SA at tier 3 will break the class in the same way that ToD broke the class before it was fixed. We saw no dark monks before because dark monks sucked. Then they added ToD and we saw many more dark monks because it was balanced again. Then ToD broke and we saw nothing BUT dark monks. Then they fixed ToD and we saw less dark monks, but still a lot. Now if they add 3d6 more sneak attack, we will see nothing BUT dark monks again because they will be survivable DPS leaders. Survivable and DPS Leaders should be mutually exclusive.

There is literally not a SINGLE level wherein a monk does not receive some sort of defensive or utility ability to make him more survivable as a granted class ability. Not one single level.
Adding 3d6 more sneak attack at tier 3 and making dark monks top tier DPS again would be a mistake.

The example of a Barbarian's Str score was a poor one. Barbs favor Con. Barbs only have a higher Str when raged. When not raged, a Ftr has a higher Str.

Terrible, just terrible, you hit that little rogue haste button that stacks with caster haste and u have the highest DPS in game on non fort and 50% fort mobs (99%) of games, monks never have that option.

Rogues have umd , huge umd, heal scrolls, stone skin, teleport, rez in general much better crits just stop your rambling, it's terrible and so poorly issued, you have no math to back your numbers, you have little to say other then bash ideas.

Strength monks have no armor to speak of, rogues dominate with umd, sa, crit, haste, traps etc etc etc you are out of your range here.

Blank_Zero
02-28-2011, 10:37 AM
Walk on Water would be better if it were

1. Cheaper (20 ki? really)
2. Viable (only useful in Abbot)
3. Not Broken

Shuriken specialties? I have a +1 Holy Silver of Improved Precise Shot, so YESPLZ

Using ToD and Stun with Short Swords? YEs. Makes sense too. Think of a Ninja using a Sai. You can flip it up and use the palm of your hand still.

3d6 SA added would make sense and be linear. To the Rogue complainers, you get SA regardless of the PrE you take. Monks only get it as a certain path. Yours is free, ours definitely isn't.

I'd like something that make Shortswords more viable though, apart from the ToD/Stun idea. Maybe increase crit multiplier, added dmg die steps to the base dmg (2d10 vs. 1d6 is silly), etc.

Also, I REALLY liked the DDoor-type ability. It made me lol.

Edit: I just LR'd my Dark Monk into a Stunner Shintao and atm, I miss ToD. Pray for me :(

Blank_Zero
02-28-2011, 10:46 AM
This is where we absolutely disagree.
A pure rogue who does absolutely nothing to increase his sneak attack should absolutely do more sneak attack dice over any given period of time than anyone of any other class, no matter how that player built his character. Race and PrE included.
The trade off that a rogue makes to be top of the DPS charts is squishiness factor and lack of defenses. That's called balance.
The trade off that a monk makes to receive all of his defensive goodies and general survivability is lower base DPS. That's called balance.
Giving any monk the ability to surpass a rogue's sneak attack dice absolutely destroys any semblance of balance of the class.
Giving 3d6 more SA at tier 3 will break the class in the same way that ToD broke the class before it was fixed. We saw no dark monks before because dark monks sucked. Then they added ToD and we saw many more dark monks because it was balanced again. Then ToD broke and we saw nothing BUT dark monks. Then they fixed ToD and we saw less dark monks, but still a lot. Now if they add 3d6 more sneak attack, we will see nothing BUT dark monks again because they will be survivable DPS leaders. Survivable and DPS Leaders should be mutually exclusive.

There is literally not a SINGLE level wherein a monk does not receive some sort of defensive or utility ability to make him more survivable as a granted class ability. Not one single level.
Adding 3d6 more sneak attack at tier 3 and making dark monks top tier DPS again would be a mistake.

The example of a Barbarian's Str score was a poor one. Barbs favor Con. Barbs only have a higher Str when raged. When not raged, a Ftr has a higher Str.

Cale, you know me. So please here me out.

First read my above post on how Rogues get their enhanced SA for free.

6d6 SA is not broken. Not one bit. Especially when it takes 18 levels in a very splashable class to get. Yes, Monks are survivable, but a well played Rogue in any group is also awesome. Even on character creation, Rogues are listed as difficult under solo ability. Monks are listed as a good choice. Pallys are a survivable class as well, as I know you know.

Also, no Barb favors CON over STR. Ever, ever, ever. No Barb will brag about a 90 CON, cuz they can't GET it. Strength is a Barbs best friend. CON is a close second.

Fighters and unRaged Barbs are simliar in STR comparisons, as they use a LOT of the same gear choices.

You're swinging blind bud.

Also, this:

There is literally not a SINGLE level wherein a monk does not receive some sort of defensive or utility ability to make him more survivable as a granted class ability. Not one single level.


Double Checked the Wiki.
Unless you're counting Slow Fall as a more-survivable ability, 14 and 18 aren't that good, except that 18 gives another Feat and Shintao 3/*maybe* Ninja 3

Calebro
02-28-2011, 11:20 AM
6d6 SA is not broken. Not one bit. Especially when it takes 18 levels in a very splashable class to get. Yes, Monks are survivable, but a well played Rogue in any group is also awesome. Even on character creation, Rogues are listed as difficult under solo ability. Monks are listed as a good choice. Pallys are a survivable class as well, as I know you know.

Also, no Barb favors CON over STR. Ever, ever, ever. No Barb will brag about a 90 CON, cuz they can't GET it. Strength is a Barbs best friend. CON is a close second.

Fighters and unRaged Barbs are simliar in STR comparisons, as they use a LOT of the same gear choices.

You're swinging blind bud.

Double Checked the Wiki.
Unless you're counting Slow Fall as a more-survivable ability, 14 and 18 aren't that good, except that 18 gives another Feat and Shintao 3/*maybe* Ninja 3

Rogues are indeed difficult to solo, while monks are much easier. The reason that rogues are difficult to solo is because the majority of their damage comes from a source that they often lose while solo. This same ability makes them great in groups.
This same ability is the reason that they are squishy. To make them less squishy is to break the balance of the class.
Monks are indeed easier to solo. This is because of all of their defensive attributes, coupled with a higher base damage die.
Taking the thing that makes rogues great in groups, but also designates them as squishies, and giving that ability in FULL EFFECT to a more defensive, less squishy class.... certainly does break balance.

Barb: What ability does their class enhancement raise? Con is the favored ability for barbs. Just because they aren't generally built with Con as their main stat doesn't change that fact.

Monk's defenses: Read what you quoted. and think about slow fall. Slow fall reduces damage taken from a fall. That's a utility ability designed to enhance survivability. My point still stands. There is not one single level that doesn't offer some sort of survivability boost to a monk. Not one.
And even if you don't count 14 & 18, then 18/20 levels applies. Giving sneak attack in full effect [half-elves get MORE sneak attack dice than non-assassin rogues with the first capstone, that's full effect] to such a defensive class is a huge mistake.

Question:
Do you think it's OK for any class, any build, any character to get more sneak attack dice than a rogue, under any circumstances?
Remember, rogues are the ONLY class that gets sneak attack dice of their own accord.
Sneak attack is *their thing* and no one else's.
For anyone else that doesn't even have a single level of rogue to surpass that amount of sneak attack dice, for any reason, is a huge game balance issue.

Tirisha
02-28-2011, 11:39 AM
I must admit that I always thought it was kinda odd that the ninja spy got 3D6 sneak in 2 tiers and the assassin only gets 3 in 3 Tiers. I think an obvious progression would have been 1 2 3 but they already screwed that up so we'll have to wait and see. Though I do think the ninja spy would need love if they choose not to increase their dps, They get a lot of useless abilities, ie tier 2 would be a sad tier without 2d6 sneak. Water-walk would at least be cool if it actually WORKED! faster sneak is cool but only useful in one quest in the game (epic claw). Shortswords only work situationally till the vale after which they just clog up inv space.

waterboytkd
02-28-2011, 01:29 PM
Rogues are indeed difficult to solo, while monks are much easier. The reason that rogues are difficult to solo is because the majority of their damage comes from a source that they often lose while solo. This same ability makes them great in groups.
This same ability is the reason that they are squishy. To make them less squishy is to break the balance of the class.
Monks are indeed easier to solo. This is because of all of their defensive attributes, coupled with a higher base damage die.
Taking the thing that makes rogues great in groups, but also designates them as squishies, and giving that ability in FULL EFFECT to a more defensive, less squishy class.... certainly does break balance.

Slow down there. We're talking about a helf dark monk. How good of soloers do you think they are? They're going to have 1 ability to heal themselves (wholeness of body), and otherwise have to rely on pots. Also, they, too, will lose sneak attack when soloing, making them not nearly so good when by themselves. Rogues, meanwhile, have UMD. That's the best skill in the game. Possibly even broken (I do believe some game imbalance is due to that skill). With it, Rogues are nowhere near squishy (thanks to buff wands/scrolls), and have access to Heal. Sure, monks can cross-class that skill, but they can't get anywhere near the levels of Rogue, and can never no fail the most useful stuff.

As for rogues, your argument that they are squishy is weird. I regularly group with a few good rogues, and they are not squishy. They typically have the same hp as my Dex/Wis monk that had a starting Con of 16 so he could get the full earth stance line. Also, they can compete, if not surpass, monks for AC. Rogues have way more options with their gear, and in a race to see who can get the best AC without gimping dps, rogue wins (access to both +4 Dodge and +4 Insight, access to Chattering Ring, easy use of Shield wands). Also, the best ability that monks have to make them more survivable is Improved Evasion. Guess what, Rogues have that, too.

What do Monks get that Rogues don't? Slow fall (easily remedied with FF item), innate SR, immunity to Poison and Disease (remedy is just a potion away), and DR 10/Epic (again, Rogues can just Stoneskin themselves for DR 10/adamantine). The only awesome ability that Monks get that Rogues can't duplicate is Abundant Step.

And for DPS, Rogues aren't hurting even when they aren't Sneak Attacking. Strength-based Rogues are still dealing high amounts of damage, and have access to much better weapons than a Monk (khopesh*, rapier). They also get access to GS crafting, which is a very big deal. As an avid monk player, I would trade my unique use of ToD rings for GS handwraps in a heartbeat. Also, on the topic of GS, Rogues can, and usually do, craft a Radiance II weapon. Hey, look at that, sneak attack is back...
*Yes, Rogues need to take a feat to use them (like everyone else), but that's a viable option for Rogues. It is not viable for Monks.

So, saying a Rogue should never be beaten by anything in terms of Sneak Attack, despite not enhancing it at all, because they have nothing else is just wrong. They have a lot going for em.

As for Barbs and their Con...seriously? It doesn't seem obvious that the devs made Con their enhancement line because if it were Strength, pure Fighters would have almost nothing left going for them (Kensai would be it). In fact, this gives me an idea for a new thread...

But let's spin this around. Clearly, a Monk's "thing" is his survivability. I mean, he sacrifices dps for it. Therefore, a Monk who does nothing to enhance is own survivability should not be less survivable than any other class/race/enhancement/feat/skill combination...right...

Chai
02-28-2011, 01:47 PM
For anyone else that doesn't even have a single level of rogue to surpass that amount of sneak attack dice, for any reason, is a huge game balance issue.

/agree.

If I play a rogue and I want a monk benefit I have to sacrifice DPS to take monk levels. If they give much more SA to this PRE, we will see half elf dilly dark monks with ~10d6 SA. Since the rogue SA doesnt stack with hElf dilly, they will have 10d6 as well without a PRE /capstone. Once they take the assassin PRE and the capstone they will gain 7d6 more SA, but if a rogue goes 19/1 accrobat / anything else, they would have the same SA as a hElf dark monk. /facepalm.

Rogues have a number of issues to contend with already. Survivability -vs- heavy hitting melee, to-hit, aggro management, low DPS -vs- crit immune SA immune mobs, etc, and the one good thing they do have is being handed out to other classes now as class abilities, race abilities, and item abilities.

Giving monks this much SA is like giving rogues a kukan-do like ability based on rogue level with a high DC, immunity to poison and disease, and DR 10/epic.

waterboytkd
02-28-2011, 02:18 PM
the one good thing they do have is being handed out to other classes now as class abilities, race abilities, and item abilities.

The one good thing? Considering that no one really splashes rogue for their sneak attack, but for the Evasion at level 2 and, oh yeah, UMD, I would say their Sneak Attack isn't their "one good thing".

And dark monks weren't getting 10d6 Sneak Attack. The proposed idea was +3d6 Sneak Attack at tier 3, which would give 6d6, 9d6 with helf rogue dilly.

It should be pointed out, though, I'm not arguing whether that's fair or broken. What I'm arguing is that the notion that a Mechanic Rogue dwarf who doesn't take haste boost and takes the first capstone should never be beaten in Sneak Attack dice per minute by a non-Rogue by virtue that Sneak Attack is the only thing he's got going on for him. If that were true, why isn't every single Rogue an Assassin with the second capstone? It's because a Rogue has got a lot more going on for them besides Sneak Attack, and if you choose to focus in one of those other areas, then you aren't going to be king of Sneak Attack. That's called balance.

Again, if Rogues should be the kings of Sneak Attack without putting any resources into it, then other classes should be the king of their features without effort. And if that were the case, there would be no customization within classes. Boring. And let's not forget, either, that the PrCs in PnP were (in)famous for blurring the lines between classes. It stands to reason that the PrE's in DDO can do the same. Not every PrE needs to be a specialization within that class. Ninja Spy is like the Monk/Rogue PrE (bonuses to Hide/Move Silently, Sneak Attack dice, turning invisible).

Also
If I play a rogue and I want a monk benefit I have to sacrifice DPS to take monk levels.

Incorrect. If you want Improved Evasion, a monk benefit, you can simply take it with one of your Rogue feats. Uh-oh, but Improved Evasion is also a Rogue benefit? Well, Sneak Attack is also a dark monk Ninja Spy benefit.

Calebro
02-28-2011, 04:40 PM
If I play a rogue and I want a monk benefit I have to sacrifice DPS to take monk levels.
Incorrect. If you want Improved Evasion, a monk benefit, you can simply take it with one of your Rogue feats. Uh-oh, but Improved Evasion is also a Rogue benefit? Well, Sneak Attack is also a dark monk Ninja Spy benefit.

I'm not even going to get into how much I disagree with the rest of your post, because I'd simply be repeating myself.

But on this point quoted above, your comprehension = fail.
I think it's fairly obvious that he was speaking of any ability *unique* to monks. And yes, you'd have to splash to get any ability unique to a monk, and in doing so you'd sacrifice DPS.
He was speaking that way because, until Ninja Spy, sneak attacks were *unique* to rogues. But if 3d6 more SA is added to NS3, then half-elf monks without a single level of rogue will be superior to some rogues in SA ability. That's just utterly ridiculous.

Hecore
02-28-2011, 05:02 PM
But if 3d6 more SA is added to NS3, then half-elf monks without a single level of rogue will be superior to some rogues in SA ability. That's just utterly ridiculous.

Only poorly played Rogues -- people seem to love not including the +12 to sneak attack damage Rogues get access to through enhancements, or just about 3 1/2 more dice. And even though the Monks in your examples take Half-Elf solely for the sneak attack enhancements, the Rogue would never take Halfling for their stacking chain.

Any half competent Rogue will outclass any tier 3 Half-Elf Ninja Spy, regardless of race.

Robi3.0
02-28-2011, 05:14 PM
If I remember correctly the 3.5 base class Ninja which this PrE is most likely based on had comparable Sudden strike dice to that of a rogues sneak attack dice. Sudden strike was an ability that was slightly more restrictive then Sneak attack, those difference don't apply in DDO, so ninja should and could have sneak dice similar to rogues.

There are several classes that have abilities similar to Sneak Attack the differences again would most likely not apply to DDO. As DDO grows rogues should get used to the fact that they will not been the only ones doing damage via sneak attacks.

Even if Ninja spy 3 gets 3d6 sneak dice an Assassin 3 halflings with the none lame capstone will still be the best sneak DPS in the game even compared to helf ninja spy 3's.

PS if your rogue is squishy that is your fault not game design.

Calebro
02-28-2011, 05:21 PM
If I remember correctly the 3.5 base class Ninja which this PrE is most likely based on had comparable Sudden strike dice to that of a rogues sneak attack dice. Sudden strike was an ability that was slightly more restrictive then Sneak attack, those difference don't apply in DDO, so ninja should and could have sneak dice similar to rogues.

Actually, this Ninja Spy is taken from the Oriental Adventures book. There is a Prestige Class named Ninja Spy within, and it gains 3d6 sneak attack dice over it's progression, as well as the ability to walk on water and Hide in Plain Sight [which has been improved in this case to Shadow Fade].


Even if Ninja spy 3 gets 3d6 sneak dice an Assassin 3 halflings with the none lame capstone will still be the best sneak DPS in the game even compared to helf ninja spy 3's.
I'm not comparing an optimal rogue to a ninja spy. I'm comparing a non-optimal rogue to a ninja spy. The worst rogue in the game should do more SA dice than a pure monk. That's my point.

Robi3.0
02-28-2011, 05:34 PM
Actually, this Ninja Spy is taken from the Oriental Adventures book. There is a Prestige Class named Ninja Spy within, and it gains 3d6 sneak attack dice over it's progression, as well as the ability to walk on water and Hide in Plain Sight [which has been improved in this case to Shadow Fade].
Okay, never read that book. The Ninja base class from The Complete Adventurer has very similar abilities so adding that to the game would be pointless. There is no reason Turbine couldn't mass the to ideas together.

My point still stands Sneak attack like damage was not exclusive to rogues in PnP and shouldn't be expected to be exclusive to rogues in DDO.



I'm not comparing an optimal rogue to a ninja spy. I'm comparing a non-optimal rogue to a ninja spy. The worst rogue in the game should do more SA dice than a pure monk. That's my point.

Comparing an optimal build to a non optimal build is hardly a fair and balance comparison.

Monk's best case scenario of 9d6 sneak dice is hardly game breaking when compared to Rogue's base case scenario of 17d6+20

Calebro
02-28-2011, 05:39 PM
Okay, never read that book. The Ninja base class from The Complete Adventurer has very similar abilities so adding that to the game would be pointless. There is no reason Turbine couldn't mass the to ideas together.

My point still stands Sneak attack like damage was not exclusive to rogues in PnP and shouldn't be expected to be exclusive to rogues in DDO.

Monk's best case scenario of 9d6 sneak dice is hardly game breaking when compared to Rogue's base case scenario of 17d6+20

Once again, I'm not comparing an optimized rogue. Ignore the 17d6. I'm comparing a non-optimzed rogue.
There is no situation where any class should receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue, even a non-optimzed one.
In case you missed this from the last page:

As stated earlier, 6d6 sneak attack damage is way too much. Most monks would have the equivalent of an 11th level rogue's sneak attack, but at a higher attack speed, which would skew the actual SA damage into a higher proximity than the psuedo-eleven levels would appear. Half-elf monks would have the equivalent of a 17th level rogue's sneak attack, with the extra attack speed, this means that their pseudo-sneak attack damage would be higher than a non-assassin rogue with the first capstone. MORE sneak attack damage than a capped rogue. That's just WAY too much. Anyone that thinks this is a good idea is delusional. **see below

<snip>

** Anyone curious how I came by that:
A non-assassin capped rogue with the first capstone gets 216 attacks per minute, at 10d6 sneak attack dice each attack.
218*10 = 2180 d6 sneak attack dice over one minute.
An monk gets 262 attacks per minute. An half elven monk with rogue dilittante, under the extra 3d6 sneak attack suggested for tier 3 for a total of 9d6 sneak attack dice would get:
262*9 = 2358 d6 sneak attack dice over that same minute.

A monk should never, under ANY circumstances, receive more sneak attack dice in any certain length of combat than a rogue gets. That's the reason an extra 3d6 would be overpowered.

An extra 3d6 at tier 3 would create a situation where a pure monk gets more SA dice over the same period of time. This would be a huge error and a huge break in game balance.

An equivalent comparison would be to offer a PrE for rogues that gave them Flurry of Blows and unarmed attacks at 2d12 each. It would completely invalidate monks.
The opposite will happen if another 3d6 is added at t3. It will invalidate rogues.
It would simply be bad for the game.

Robi3.0
02-28-2011, 05:49 PM
Once again, I'm not comparing an optimized rogue. Ignore the 17d6. I'm comparing a non-optimzed rogue.
There is no situation where any class should receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue, even a non-optimzed one.
In case you missed this from the last page:
.

A pure rogue gets 10d6 if that rogue cares about sneak dice they can spend 2 Ap to get 4d6 more grand total 14d6. Even if that rogue doesn't then they would still get 10d6 which last time I checked was more then 6d6 or 9d6 in the case of a helf.

There is no rule anywhere that a rogue should have the most sneak dice that is a believe of yours and not a rule of game design.

Turbine should reward people that optimize not protect players that don't.

Bodic
02-28-2011, 05:52 PM
if they add +3d6 SA a lvl 18 non assassin would have the same SA dice as a lvl 18 dark Ninja if they were to take the rogue Helf dilly that is overpower'd.

no non full rogue should ever be able to have more SA dice than a rogue. now true the base + SA on a halfing rogue would still be better(if barely) due to enhancements.

Calebro
02-28-2011, 05:59 PM
1. A pure rogue gets 10d6 if that rogue cares about sneak dice they can spend 2 Ap to get 4d6 more grand total 14d6. Even if that rogue doesn't then they would still get 10d6 which last time I checked was more then 6d6 or 9d6 in the case of a helf.

2. There is no rule anywhere that a rogue should have the most sneak dice that is a believe of yours and not a rule of game design.

Turbine should reward people that optimize not protect players that don't.

1. You obviously didn't read the post you quoted. 9d6 > 10d6 when that 9d6 happens at a faster rate.

2. Every class in the game has one thing that it does better than anyone else. For rogues that one thing is sneak attacking. As a matter of fact, thgey are the only ones that can even do it innately. For the possibility of a completely different class to be superior at it than they are is just ridiculous.
To have the class that surpasses them at it be a class that excels where a rogue is weak is just foolish, and balance breaking.

Blank_Zero
02-28-2011, 06:00 PM
Pure monks can't do traps.

Pure monks can't get awesome UMD.

Pure monks can only get marginally close to the stealth that a Pure Rogue Assassin can achieve.

Pure monks get one insta-death ability, and it really isn't all that good.


1. You obviously didn't read the post you quoted. 9d6 > 10d6 when that 9d6 happens at a faster rate.

This is a bit skewed bud. Air 4 Stance gives the same speed as Haste, and as far as I can tell, doesn't stack. Rogues can get the same AND Rogue Haste 4.

waterboytkd
02-28-2011, 06:11 PM
I'm still waiting to hear how monks are more survivable than rogues. Other than (most likely) having a better Fort and Will save, I'm pretty sure rogues will be better survivors than monks. Still waiting to hear how this is wrong.

Robi3.0
02-28-2011, 06:12 PM
1. You obviously didn't read the post you quoted. 9d6 > 10d6 when that 9d6 happens at a faster rate.

2. Every class in the game has one thing that it does better than anyone else. For rogues that one thing is sneak attacking. As a matter of fact, thgey are the only ones that can even do it innately. For the possibility of a completely different class to be superior at it than they are is just ridiculous.
To have the class that surpasses them at it be a class that excels where a rogue is weak is just foolish, and balance breaking.

I am sorry that you have an overly simplistic view of game design. A class is the some total of its abilities, and can not be defined by one individual ability.

Bodic
02-28-2011, 06:18 PM
I'm still waiting to hear how monks are more survivable than rogues.

natural non item/ehancement
1.HP
2.Saves
3.DR
4.Immunities
5.DR breaking
6.Attack/Movement speed

Requiro
02-28-2011, 06:21 PM
(...)
There is no situation where any class should receive more sneak attack dice than a rogue, even a non-optimzed one.
(...)


Idk about others, but I really don’t understand why Rogue who don’t want to improve his unique ability (and refuse to use it) should be still better then Monk who sacrifice a lot (like ugly face.. :) )to be master of the shadow?

waterboytkd
02-28-2011, 06:57 PM
natural non item/ehancement
1.HP
2.Saves
3.DR
4.Immunities
5.DR breaking
6.Attack/Movement speed

Sure, without gear or enhancements, that's true (though not sure how the last 2 really make one more survivable; does the Barb become more survivable when he makes a MinII maul?).

BUT, I'm also going to say it's misleading to ignore gear and items and definitely enhancements. Have you ever played a character without gear or enhancements? Those play a massive role in your character's abilities. And as soon as you consider gear, a rogue gains a lot of survivability via UMD.

Rogues are nowhere near as one-dimensional as some have argued in this thread. And I've got to be done with this thread, now. It's going nowhere fast, and just raising my blood pressure.

Requiro
02-28-2011, 07:38 PM
6.(...)Movement speed

(...)though not sure how the last 2 really make one more survivable(...)

You can run away faster then others if you see big ugly monster coming to you :)

Blank_Zero
02-28-2011, 07:40 PM
5.DR breaking


Not on a Ninja Spy.

Bodic
02-28-2011, 09:49 PM
adamantine/lawful fist so yes DR breaking

BlackSteel
02-28-2011, 09:53 PM
I'm not understanding the relevance of comparing a rogue who refuses to specialize in sneak damage (no enhancements, no capstone, no assassin, no halfling) versus a monk that does specialize in it (ninja spy & half elf).

Ganak
02-28-2011, 10:12 PM
Poison use, gaseous form, blindsight, always sneaky, ethereal jaunt.

DethTrip
03-01-2011, 02:21 PM
I was hoping for more ideas than complaining but this is kinda what I expected. There are going to be racial and class overlap in this game. Happens a lot. Sorc, Wiz, and Bard. Cleric, Favored Soul, Ranger, Bard and Paladin. Monk, Ranger, and Rogue. Half Orc and Warforged. Half Elf and Human. Etc... They all have skills, feats and/or enhancements that cross. Can a wizard that takes all the archmage and energy enhancements approach the spell points of a sorc that takes none? Sure. But they spend a lot of APs on enhancements to do so.

Now you have some crossover with monks and rogues with sneak attack. Why is it off base to think a ninja could sneak attack close to as well as a rogue? I honestly think they should sneak attack at least as well. Especially if you are spending a bunch of APs to do so. I still believe 7d6 sneak attack is well within reason and should potentially be higher. The complaint of a proposed helf ninja spy III monk being able to get near or equal a capped rogue with the ROGUE dilly is a poor complaint since the reason they get the extra 3d6 SA is because they are considered part rogue!! It has nothing to do with a monk.

Some of you came up with some nice ideas. Thanks for trying to keep things on track.

I do not like the ideas of doing anything with short swords. I personally would like to see that part of the pre removed for something more useful and relevant. I would say add shuriken abilities instead. I can picture a shuriken hitting a troll in the eye and it falling to the ground dead. Maybe make a special shuriken instant death type attack. That is very interesting and sounds like a lot of fun.

I love the energy drain idea. Maybe when in Greater Shadow Fade (or shadow fade if they do not implement greater shadow fade), your unarmed critical strikes drain 1-3 levels, like the woowoo sticks. It's an existing ability that you would think wouldn't be too hard to implement. Picture shadow fade as a negative energy field around you that drains their life force on critical strikes.

I also like the idea for a longer shadow fade, if they do not create a greater shadow fade. 1 minute is way too short.

Adding to the critical multiplier and/or range is a nice idea. This only adds more dps and not much flavor though, but I like dps =-D

I LOVE the ddoor idea. Make it work like the potions you drink in the birthday event. You click on the skill, which costs ki of course, and it ddoors you back to the beginning of the quest. Excellent idea that really goes along with the ninja imo.

Another interesting idea is creating a mist. You see it in movies where they throw the explosive ball on the ground creating a mist and then they disappear. Would be kinda cool.

I really appreciate the replies that are hopefully giving the devs enough interesting ideas to bring ninja spy III to life. I will add them to the OP. Keep the ideas rolling.

Blank_Zero
03-01-2011, 02:59 PM
I have a few suggestions for ninja spy III. Any one or combination of these would be great.

1. Add another 4d6 sneak attack damage.
2. Decrease the cooldown of touch of death.
3. Add wisdom modifier to damage.
4. +1 enhanced ki generation.
5. An instant death assassin type strike that is better than quivering palm.
6. Greater Shadow Fade (50% incorporeality that lasts 2 minutes).
7. While in Greater Shadow Fade (or shadow fade) your critical unarmed attacks drain 1-3 levels from your target.
8. Replace short swords on spy II with shuriken abilities.
9. Create an instant death shuriken attack for spy II
10. Lengthen shadow fade duration (if not creating greater shadow fade)
11. Add to the threat and/or multiplier of a critical hit.
12. Add a ddoor ki skill.
13. Add a mist creating ki skill.

And please fix the TOD ring sets! Make the ninja spy set do something cool and relevant.

I will try to think up some others. If you have some non-abusive on topic suggestions, please feel free to reply. Thanks.

1. 3d6 is plenty for NS3 adding
2. Reduced to 6 seconds would be a bit OP, but awesome =D
3. WIS to dmg mod? Awesome thought
4. +1 when sneaking? or all the time?
5. Yes
6. I wouldn't mind the 1 minute if I could stay invised for longer or stay stealthed through doors, etc.
7. A little OP, considering Assassin 3 Rogues only get this with ToD set.
8. Don't replace, just add Shurikens in as well.
9. Vorpal Shuriken? Give a bit more on this maybe?
10. Definitely
11. Increased Multiplier is ok, but increasing threat? How about decrease?
12. DDoor is good.
13. Solid Fog? or Obscuring Mist?



I LOVE the ddoor idea. Make it work like the potions you drink in the birthday event. You click on the skill, which costs ki of course, and it ddoors you back to the beginning of the quest. Excellent idea that really goes along with the ninja imo.

AND

Another interesting idea is creating a mist. You see it in movies where they throw the explosive ball on the ground creating a mist and then they disappear. Would be kinda cool.

How about combining this? Call it Smoke Bomb, and have a cool graphic as you teleport back to the entrance.

jkm
03-01-2011, 03:02 PM
Idk about others, but I really don’t understand why Rogue who don’t want to improve his unique ability (and refuse to use it) should be still better then Monk who sacrifice a lot (like ugly face.. :) )to be master of the shadow?

uh, how about you sacrafice 2 prestige classes? that is the point of calebro's post. he's comparing a non-assassin to your 6d6 sneak attack.

now lets look closely at the ROGUE sneak attack prestige class assassin

oh wait, we just got 1d6 per tier when they INTRODUCED ninja spy. in other words, ninja spy in 2 levels has the same sneak attack as assassin in 3.

if you can't see that 6d6 will mean a total revamping of the 3 rogue PrE's then you are blind as a bat. i want Eladrin working on new PrEs not constantly having to go back and fix others because he overpowered a comparable one in a different class.

jkm
03-01-2011, 03:25 PM
Now you have some crossover with monks and rogues with sneak attack. Why is it off base to think a ninja could sneak attack close to as well as a rogue? I honestly think they should sneak attack at least as well. Especially if you are spending a bunch of APs to do so. I still believe 7d6 sneak attack is well within reason and should potentially be higher. The complaint of a proposed helf ninja spy III monk being able to get near or equal a capped rogue with the ROGUE dilly is a poor complaint since the reason they get the extra 3d6 SA is because they are considered part rogue!! It has nothing to do with a monk.

6d6 sneak attack damage would be the equivalent of 20 monk/11 rogue. now compare this with an assassin who gets 3d6 sneak attack for an equivalence of 25 rogue.

do you see where the problem is here? so don't you think that 1d6 per tier would seem right at 20 monk/5 rogue?


assassin 3 gets 3d6 sneak attack and 3 abilities that don't work on a ton of mobs in end game.

ninja spy 3 would get 6d6 sneak attack and at least 1 ability (shadow fade) that would work at end game.

and yes, i have both a rogue and a ToD dark monk.

Calebro
03-01-2011, 03:34 PM
and yes, i have both a rogue and a ToD dark monk.

Give it up dude.
Robi's last response made me realize that they were never going to listen to reason.

I am sorry that you have an overly simplistic view of game design. A class is the some total of its abilities, and can not be defined by one individual ability.
The sum total of it's abilities?
You do realize that we're talking about the sum totals of a monks' abilities vs. the sum totals of a rogue's abilities, don't you? Monk's get WAY more abilities than rogues do. To give them a LARGE portion of a rogue's ability is exactly the problem that I'm speaking of.

But you guys are never going to see that, as evidenced by the edited list. Most of the items listed there would be OP for tier three by themselves when taken into consideration with what already exists, and you'll undoubtedly be asking for more than one.
It's "I want, I want, I want" with no thought of consequence as to how that will affect the balance of the class.

I'm finished commenting in this thread. I'll just watch, shake my head, and giggle to myself.

BlackSteel
03-01-2011, 03:54 PM
what does a halfling rogue compared to a half elf ninja look like? comparing a butt knaked rogue to a highly specialized ninja doesnt make any sense.

the specced halfling is what? 16d6 + 22 at cap? versus 9d6 of the H-E ninja spy? nope not seeing a problem here. Both the PrE and the racial are supposed to mimic a rogue's abilities, and the monk is still getting less than half of what the rogue is. Sure, its only agaisnt the halfling, but everyone is up in arms about the half elf monk as well.

dozkal-mo
03-01-2011, 04:24 PM
Extra sneak dice will be nice. I'm definitely in favor or using the Wis mod for damage. I'd like to see a passive ability that decreases hate so I can actually keep using my SA when I drop a ToD.

I've found the shortsword from the pirate event particularly useful, and they have their uses.

And as for walking on water...I love it. You're also supposed to be able to run across lava, but it's still rather glitchy since it doesn't work on all water/lava surfaces. Regardless, I've found it useful at times.

Shuleagh
03-01-2011, 05:13 PM
Speaking as someone who TR'ed from a barb to a monk because monks are so good. Its pretty much a done deal that ninja spy 3 will be +3d6 sneak atk and a random buff. The random buff won't be amazing. It might deal with shortswords again. Expecting it to be anything more is setting yourself up for a letdown.

As far as Ninja Spy having a lot of sneak attack. Duh? Its a ninja. Ninjas and rogues have a whole hell of a lot in common so its to be expected.

jkm
03-01-2011, 05:25 PM
what does a halfling rogue compared to a half elf ninja look like? comparing a butt knaked rogue to a highly specialized ninja doesnt make any sense.

the specced halfling is what? 16d6 + 22 at cap? versus 9d6 of the H-E ninja spy? nope not seeing a problem here. Both the PrE and the racial are supposed to mimic a rogue's abilities, and the monk is still getting less than half of what the rogue is. Sure, its only agaisnt the halfling, but everyone is up in arms about the half elf monk as well.

you'd have roughly 1/2 the sneak attack damage of a full blown halfling (assuming 218 and 262 are right) [wind stance IV and opportunist included]

218 * (3.5 * 17 + 18 [HG4]) * 1.03 = 17850.93
262 * (3.5 * 6 + 8 [HG4]) * 1.10 = 8357.8
262 * (3.5 * 9) * 1.10 = 9078.3

seriously, don't you think that is just a little overpowered?

the 1/2 elf is roughly equivalent to a 20th level rogue with cheat death and 2 ranks of sneak attack training and just slightly under a 20th level acrobat with the 4d6 capstone (and no opportunist).

jkm
03-01-2011, 05:28 PM
Speaking as someone who TR'ed from a barb to a monk because monks are so good. Its pretty much a done deal that ninja spy 3 will be +3d6 sneak atk and a random buff. The random buff won't be amazing. It might deal with shortswords again. Expecting it to be anything more is setting yourself up for a letdown.

As far as Ninja Spy having a lot of sneak attack. Duh? Its a ninja. Ninjas and rogues have a whole hell of a lot in common so its to be expected.

all right then, this is how we handle this. the sneak attacks work ONLY with shortswords. then you can have your 6d6 because it would be balanced.

nebogloee
03-01-2011, 07:16 PM
all right then, this is how we handle this. the sneak attacks work ONLY with shortswords. then you can have your 6d6 because it would be balanced.

And would ANY dark monk give up bursting rings,tod,SF,weighted HW, etc. for the extra shortsword 3d6? I content they will not. NS3 would just be another useless pre. Shortswords are not the way for the dark monk. Not without better bab, crit range, multiplier and the ability to use SF and Tod with them. But as I have said before, have you ever seen a blunt SW? (for the stunning +10 bonus) I don't know any monks that would give up the best parts of the class to wield an underwhelming weapon such as short sword (especially when all the good dps/cc/bab comes from HW).

EDIT:
PS. Why isn't anyone complaining about the uberness of a halfling dark monk. They are only behind the Helf by aprox 2 points of sneak damage. This seems to be just a lot of smoke, mirrors, and monk hate. But hey, whats new, they have been on the wrong side of the joke for years now.

Soleran
03-01-2011, 07:50 PM
The reason that rogues are difficult to solo is because the majority of their damage comes from a source that they often lose while solo. .

Radiance dt armor and gs weapons, SA achieved.

UMD to heal, rez, stoneskin, invis, shield spell, teleport, fireshield, poison pots, cure disease wands etc etc etc

Higher crit weapons , better crit range weapons, 12 sa achieved without any dice just by virtue of AP, stackable 30% haste and additional boosts to action clickies to improve the number between shrines.

I've linked weapon swing comparisons that show how hugely off some of the math is used to misrepresent information regarding a potential change to provide ninja spy 3 with an additional 3d6 sa.

In addition comparisons made are with the lowest assumed dps rogue vs the highest monk, terrible. Apples to apples then go from there otherwise its a whine fest.

I don't think adding wisdom bonus to damage would be ninja that sounds more henshin but neat idea, 6d6 sa on a ninja for 3 tiers of ninja pre is hardly overpowering.

jkm
03-01-2011, 08:10 PM
Radiance dt armor and gs weapons, SA achieved.

UMD to heal, rez, stoneskin, invis, shield spell, teleport, fireshield, poison pots, cure disease wands etc etc etc

Higher crit weapons , better crit range weapons, 12 sa achieved without any dice just by virtue of AP, stackable 30% haste and additional boosts to action clickies to improve the number between shrines.

I've linked weapon swing comparisons that show how hugely off some of the math is used to misrepresent information regarding a potential change to provide ninja spy 3 with an additional 3d6 sa.

In addition comparisons made are with the lowest assumed dps rogue vs the highest monk, terrible. Apples to apples then go from there otherwise its a whine fest.

I don't think adding wisdom bonus to damage would be ninja that sounds more henshin but neat idea, 6d6 sa on a ninja for 3 tiers of ninja pre is hardly overpowering.

no, the comparison should be between assassin and ninja spy. assassin gives d6 per tier, ninja escalates. this is the same problem that happened when dwarven toughness escalated (and then was nerfed).

Soleran
03-01-2011, 08:31 PM
no, the comparison should be between assassin and ninja spy. assassin gives d6 per tier, ninja escalates. this is the same problem that happened when dwarven toughness escalated (and then was nerfed).

Sure :

Assassin 1

Grants 1 to 6 additional sneak attack damage
plus the poison abilities

Ninja Spy 1

gain 1 to 6 sneak attack damage as if you were a rogue.
plus shadowfade.

Assassin 2

Grants an additional 1 to 6 sneak attack damage (for a total of 2 to 12)

Ninja Spy 2

additional 2 to 12 sneak attack damage (for a total of 3 to 18 sneak attack damage)

Assassin 3

Grants an additional 1 to 6 sneak attack damage (for a total of 3 to 18)

Ninja Spy 3

Who knows

Assassin also grants vorpal hits and instant death to mobs when hit from a sneak attack ninja spy effectively in combat provides shadowfade "You can expend ki to enter shadow form, becoming invisible and partially incorporeal" so 25% miss chance and invis.

In combat situations the Assassin owns the monk for abilities, if the monk were to recieve more SA and something regarding shortswords then the Assassin still owns the monk for combat abilities as SA is only done in sitations where no one has aggro in a held/stunned postition. The sum of the pre isn't in SA damage alone and the Rogue after pre tier 1 wins.

jkm
03-01-2011, 08:31 PM
Radiance dt armor and gs weapons, SA achieved.

UMD to heal, rez, stoneskin, invis, shield spell, teleport, fireshield, poison pots, cure disease wands etc etc etc

Higher crit weapons , better crit range weapons, 12 sa achieved without any dice just by virtue of AP, stackable 30% haste and additional boosts to action clickies to improve the number between shrines.

I've linked weapon swing comparisons that show how hugely off some of the math is used to misrepresent information regarding a potential change to provide ninja spy 3 with an additional 3d6 sa.

In addition comparisons made are with the lowest assumed dps rogue vs the highest monk, terrible. Apples to apples then go from there otherwise its a whine fest.

I don't think adding wisdom bonus to damage would be ninja that sounds more henshin but neat idea, 6d6 sa on a ninja for 3 tiers of ninja pre is hardly overpowering.

you keep getting stuck on class to class comparisons (even though you left out all the monk abilities). look at similar class PrE's. since ninja's are rogue like, they shouldn't be far and away better than the rogue ones. otherwise they'll have to revisit the rogue PrE's for the 4th time.

jkm
03-01-2011, 08:33 PM
Sure :

Assassin 1

Grants 1 to 6 additional sneak attack damage
plus the poison abilities

Ninja Spy 1

gain 1 to 6 sneak attack damage as if you were a rogue.
plus shadowfade.

Assassin 2

Grants an additional 1 to 6 sneak attack damage (for a total of 2 to 12)

Ninja Spy 2

additional 2 to 12 sneak attack damage (for a total of 3 to 18 sneak attack damage)

Assassin 3

Grants an additional 1 to 6 sneak attack damage (for a total of 3 to 18)

Ninja Spy 3

Who knows

Assassin also grants vorpal hits and instant death to mobs when hit from a sneak attack ninja spy effectively in combat provides shadowfade "You can expend ki to enter shadow form, becoming invisible and partially incorporeal" so 25% miss chance and invis.

In combat situations the Assassin owns the monk for abilities, if the monk were to recieve more SA and something regarding shortswords then the Assassin still owns the monk for combat abilities as SA is only done in sitations where no one has aggro in a held/stunned postition.

poisons are useless, the death attack is nigh useless, the vorpal attack doesn't work in epic. thus it comes down to sneak attack. if ninja is 1d6 per tier plus a death attack at the 3rd tier (which is blocked by deathward) then the 2 are practically the same.

Soleran
03-01-2011, 08:38 PM
poisons are useless, the death attack is nigh useless, the vorpal attack doesn't work in epic. thus it comes down to sneak attack. if ninja is 1d6 per tier plus a death attack at the 3rd tier (which is blocked by deathward) then the 2 are practically the same.

Now you're putting alot of buts in your discussion that has nothing to do with the entire game, rather a small part of the game, guess what is stopped by deathward also, TOD so there we have it.

That's hardly imbalanced seeing as rogues can drop some picks and go x4 crit and monks still use x2 in epics. Since you are wanting to make this more then just pre vs pre now pre vs pre and situations you are looking to nitpick.

If thats the case rogues still get 4d6 sa capstone, 12 sa vs enhancements and 30% haste that stacks with spell haste and 10% opportunity to bypass fort vs monk passive ki regen and 10 dr (hello no dps boost from monk capstone to speak of its like 2 shadowfades a minute which does no dps.)

Bodic
03-01-2011, 08:55 PM
and a monk can break
25% fort active ability not random chance.

the whole of it is you want to argue that monk needs more than a rogue when it comes to the SA ability that is a rogues PRIMARY class feature.

Monks are better than rogues in so many ways you want to steal the show on what they have that a monk doesnt

jkm
03-01-2011, 09:17 PM
Now you're putting alot of buts in your discussion that has nothing to do with the entire game, rather a small part of the game, guess what is stopped by deathward also, TOD so there we have it.

That's hardly imbalanced seeing as rogues can drop some picks and go x4 crit and monks still use x2 in epics. Since you are wanting to make this more then just pre vs pre now pre vs pre and situations you are looking to nitpick.

If thats the case rogues still get 4d6 sa capstone, 12 sa vs enhancements and 30% haste that stacks with spell haste and 10% opportunity to bypass fort vs monk passive ki regen and 10 dr (hello no dps boost from monk capstone to speak of its like 2 shadowfades a minute which does no dps.)

lets see you are comparing 6-7 18.8 second clickies vs 15% static unarmed attack speed boost? seriously?

Soleran
03-01-2011, 09:43 PM
lets see you are comparing 6-7 18.8 second clickies vs 15% static unarmed attack speed boost? seriously?

93.2 (unarmed)attacks vs 86.7 (twf weapons)

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=275144&highlight=swing+speed

The proof doesn't fall to me when you are the one saying it will unbalance things, you have to justify your position. Rogues get 30% haste that stacks with 15% haste, monks have nothing resembling that anywhere.

Monks and rogues don't generally solo epics as per your discussion earlier to justify your position so it's a strawman to attempt to stand on a position arguing it does.

~Tago_Bane
03-02-2011, 02:47 AM
and a monk can break
25% fort active ability not random chance.



you talking about the shintao ability? cause the dark monk finisher is a fort save that no boss will fail *or very very few*.

Ereshkigal
03-02-2011, 03:24 AM
Well, if you look at the Ninja class in the Complete Adventurer, from pnp d&d, it looks like they drew a lot of the stuff so far from it.

Some other features that they could take from that class could be:

more sneak attack ( this class had 9d6 at 20, but had 6d6 by 12 so...)
50% concealment clicky
hide-in-plain-sight
true seeing
poison usage
shadow-walk
ghost-touch effect applied to all attacks
more bonuses to jump & tumble


also the ninja-spy counted a kukri as a weapon they could use. that 18-20 crit would be nice now wouldn't it ;)

Gulnar13
03-02-2011, 04:15 AM
and a monk can break
25% fort active ability not random chance.

the whole of it is you want to argue that monk needs more than a rogue when it comes to the SA ability that is a rogues PRIMARY class feature.

Monks are better than rogues in so many ways you want to steal the show on what they have that a monk doesnt

Too bad we're all talking about ninja spy here, and not about Mr. Shintao. Mixing up classes (or pres) is just a sign that you don't know too well what you're talking about. And the dark-dark-dark inisher is simply impossible to land on anything past normal vale trash.

DethTrip
03-02-2011, 08:09 AM
12. DDoor is good.
13. Solid Fog? or Obscuring Mist?

How about combining this? Call it Smoke Bomb, and have a cool graphic as you teleport back to the entrance.

I thought about this but the problem is that the mist would be left behind and of little use when you are back at the beginning of the quest.


Well, if you look at the Ninja class in the Complete Adventurer, from pnp d&d, it looks like they drew a lot of the stuff so far from it.

Some other features that they could take from that class could be:

more sneak attack ( this class had 9d6 at 20, but had 6d6 by 12 so...)
50% concealment clicky
hide-in-plain-sight
true seeing
poison usage
shadow-walk
ghost-touch effect applied to all attacks
more bonuses to jump & tumble


also the ninja-spy counted a kukri as a weapon they could use. that 18-20 crit would be nice now wouldn't it ;)

So my idea of 7d6 sneak attack is actually lower than pnp. I still hold fast to my opinion that a ninja should be as deadly as ANY rogue.

The Greater Shadow Fade idea is pretty close. Of course the main differences is that concealment doesn't stack with blur or displacement and would not help against bosses with true seeing. I would still like to see 50% incorporeality. And it stacking with displacement would NOT give 100% miss chance. I'm pretty sure each has a separate check. It could be argued as being overpowered so testing would have to be done but the idea is quite similar to pnp.

Can you elaborate on how the hide-in-plain-sight ability works and how you might see it adapted to DDO?

True seeing and ghost touch are nice. For those dumping their tharnes goggles and spectral gloves, this would be very helpful.

The kukri is an interesting idea. It even sounds more like a ninja weapon than a shortsword.

Calebro
03-02-2011, 08:15 AM
So my idea of 7d6 sneak attack is actually lower than pnp. I still hold fast to my opinion that a ninja should be as deadly as ANY rogue.

Wrong.
I repeat: The Ninja Spy is not from the Complete Adventurer. That was the Ninja base class. The Ninja Spy Prestige Class was from Oriental Adventures. Ninja Spy received 3d6 SA over the course of it's progression, which is less than half of what you're asking.

DethTrip
03-02-2011, 08:31 AM
Wrong.
I repeat: The Ninja Spy is not from the Complete Adventurer. That was the Ninja base class. The Ninja Spy Prestige Class was from Oriental Adventures. Ninja Spy received 3d6 SA over the course of it's progression, which is less than half of what you're asking.

I apologize. I'm not familiar with pnp ninjas. I was going by what another posted. Regardless, my opinion still is that a ninja should sneak attack as well as an assassin because a ninja is an assassin, just a different type. That's just my opinion. Some want more sa, some want less. It's up to the devs to figure out how they want to balance things. I am simply trying to provide ideas. They will test and determine what the final product is. They know they are never going to make everyone happy. They take flack for everything they do. That's why they get paid the big bucks =-D

Calebro
03-02-2011, 08:37 AM
They know they are never going to make everyone happy. They take flack for everything they do. That's why they get paid the big bucks =-D

Their job is not to make everyone happy. Their job is to create a balanced game, which most of this thread runs counter to.

Bodic
03-02-2011, 08:43 AM
And the dark-dark-dark finisher is simply possible to land on anything FIXED

I was there to clarify an available ability of a DARK MONK its there it can be used its up to you to use it in an effective manner, and if I can/did land it on a lvl20TR WF wiz in PvP it can be used.

DethTrip
03-02-2011, 08:45 AM
Their job is not to make everyone happy. Their job is to create a balanced game, which most of this thread runs counter to.

Nah, you see it all wrong. This thread is about creating ideas for the ninja spy pre. The ideas will hopefully be read by the devs and they will determine how to best implement them in a balanced fashion. The amount of sa damage has been hotly contested but that doesn't mean the thread is against game balance. It just means people have a difference of opinion.

Bodic
03-02-2011, 08:51 AM
Would someone reading this thread be so kind as to link the NINJA SPY PrC from the Oriental Adventures. there is a base to work and cut away from as you understand you dont get near all of the abilities the fact that an Assassin has no BLUE bar or Spell like abilities is fact.
to the DDOR,FOM, & GREATER INVIS(game breaker so I understand) among others that an assassin doesnt receive.

LittleM
03-02-2011, 08:55 AM
Ninja Spy III:
+2 Balance, Hide, and Move Silently
+1d6 Sneak Attack (for a total of +4d6). You move an additional 10% faster while sneaking
increases the critical multiplier of your shortswords by 1

That would be my sugestion.

Calebro
03-02-2011, 09:04 AM
Would someone reading this thread be so kind as to link the NINJA SPY PrC from the Oriental Adventures. there is a base to work and cut away from as you understand you dont get near all of the abilities the fact that an Assassin has no BLUE bar or Spell like abilities is fact.
to the DDOR,FOM, & GREATER INVIS(game breaker so I understand) among others that an assassin doesnt receive.

Ninja Spy isn't OGC, so we can't describe it in detail, and any link would be a violation of the ToS as no legal link exists.

In short:
A Ninja Spy required Dodge, and earliest admittance was at level 8.
Ninja Spy used the monk's BaB progression and saves progression.
Ninja Spy received 3d6 SA over it's progression, and received a water walking ability at level 5 (CL 13, we have it at 12). Ninja Spy also received additional weapon proficiencies, one of which was the ninja-to (short sword), and Hide in Plain Sight (here improved to shadow fade).
Beyond that, most of a Ninja Spy's abilities duplicated a monk's, and thus continuing the monk's basic abilities in addition to the extras (which normally doesn't happen in PrCs. You normally give up progressing your base abilities to gain different ones instead), with the exception of a few things that do not exist in DDO (such as the ability to alter his appearance).

This is the reason that t3 is difficult. They already have everything from the PnP counterpart by t2. Had they simply made t2 1d6 instead of 2d6, they would need only to add a third d6 and another small addition for t3. By adding 2d6 at t3, they screwed it up and now have to do something unique.... but they need to do it without breaking it.

As for DDoor.... that's *exactly* what abundant step is in PnP, so you already have that ability in as close an approximation as you'll probably get.

edit:
To be perfectly honest, they should remove the lvl 9 reqs for ToD and make THAT the t3 ninja spy ability.

Gulnar13
03-02-2011, 09:05 AM
FIXED

I was there to clarify an available ability of a DARK MONK its there it can be used its up to you to use it in an effective manner, and if I can/did land it on a low saves class it can be used.

Fixed back. Because something work in pvp it doesn't mean it works in the pve part of the game. Also, landing a finisher on a caster-type class is one thing, landing it on a boss where it would be worth it (Like, Harry, Sally, Horot, any epic boss) is another thing.

Carpone
03-02-2011, 09:08 AM
I have a few suggestions for ninja spy III. Any one or combination of these would be great.

1. Add another 4d6 sneak attack damage
Way over the top. Rogues would rightfully cry a river.


2. Decrease the cooldown of touch of death
More realistically: Increase the DC of Touch of Death so the use interval remains the same, but you increase the damage you deal (fewer saves).


3. Add wisdom modifier to damage
That would be Shintao or Henshin Mystic, if it belongs anywhere.


4. +1 enhanced ki generation
That would be Henshin Mystic.


5. An instant death assassin type strike that is better than quivering palm
Or devs could actually make Quivering Palm worth a damn.


6. Greater Shadow Fade (50% incorporeality that lasts 2 minutes)
Garbage.


7. While in Greater Shadow Fade (or shadow fade) your critical unarmed attacks drain 1-3 levels from your target
Pretty silly. Use a Dreamspitter on a held mob.


8. Replace short swords on spy II with shuriken abilities
Shiruken are not that cool.


9. Create an instant death shuriken attack for spy II
Shiruken are not that cool.


10. Lengthen shadow fade duration (if not creating greater shadow fade)
No.


11. Add to the threat and/or multiplier of a critical hit
Edit: Oh, you mean increase the threat range of a weapon like Improved Critical. If we're following the flavor of Ninja Spy, then this would have to be limited to short swords. So it's lame. Improving the crit multipler of unarmed seems like a great Henshin Mystic ability.


12. Add a ddoor ki skill
Eh. It's definitely in the rules, but this is a Henshin Mystic ability if I ever saw one.


13. Add a mist creating ki skill
Like Solid Fog? Neat flavor, but seems subpar for a tier3 prestige effect.


14. Hide-in-plain-sight
Kinda like the Cloak of Shadows where you remain invisible for a short time while attacking? Yeah, I like that idea.


15. True seeing
Tharnes Goggles and Epic Raven's Sight says this is lame.


16. Ghost touch
Sure, that's neat. Not a tier3 ability though, more like tier 1.

Monks have huge to-hit issues, especially in epics. The tier 3 prestige needs to address that in some fashion. My suggestions:

For a tier3 prestige, I'd prefer to see stacking Sneak Attack Bonus. So if you have SA +5 somewhere (like Tharnes Goggles), perhaps it's treated as SA +7 instead. Monks have huge to-hit issues, and this definitely fits the flavor of the ninja spy.

For the Ninja Spy ToD set: Sneak Attack Bonus +5 (non-stacking) if you have Ninja Spy III. That gives you the option of using something besides Tharnes Goggles, like Epic Raven's Sight set for the +4 to-hit bonus and exceptional saves/WIS. Or better yet: Change the set bonus to be SA +5, and have Ninja Spy III provide a stacking +1 Sneak Attack Bonus.

Carpone
03-02-2011, 09:10 AM
Ninja Spy III:
+2 Balance, Hide, and Move Silently
+1d6 Sneak Attack (for a total of +4d6). You move an additional 10% faster while sneaking
increases the critical multiplier of your shortswords by 1

That would be my sugestion.
Totally not worth taking Ninja Spy III for that.

Balthazar_No_Oni
03-02-2011, 09:34 AM
Give it up dude.
Robi's last response made me realize that they were never going to listen to reason.


As have all of your posts, guess what dude, its not "your way or the highway"

Rogues that neglect a skill or ability dont necessarily have to be better at it than another class that gets that ablity which then specializes in it. Not to mention if they go to the extent of taking a RACE just to specialize further in that ability.

Balthazar_No_Oni
03-02-2011, 09:37 AM
Ninja Spy III:
+2 Balance, Hide, and Move Silently
+1d6 Sneak Attack (for a total of +4d6). You move an additional 10% faster while sneaking
increases the critical multiplier of your shortswords by 1

That would be my sugestion.

That would be damn near totally useless. Why would any 18 monk use SS? Even with an increased multiplier Stunning Fist does not work with SS.

The only thing that is even GOOD is the 1d6 sneak.

Balthazar_No_Oni
03-02-2011, 09:40 AM
edit:
To be perfectly honest, they should remove the lvl 9 reqs for ToD and make THAT the t3 ninja spy ability.


LOL why dont you just admit you think dark monks are overpowered and want them nerfed to oblivion. This EDIT above proves that beyond a reasonable doubt!

Calebro
03-02-2011, 09:40 AM
As have all of your posts, guess what dude, its not "your way or the highway".

I never said it was "my way or the highway."
As a matter of fact, I never offered any suggestions until just a moment ago, so "my way" never existed.
All I said was that THAT WAY was not the way.


LOL why dont you just admit you think dark monks are overpowered and want them nerfed to oblivion. This EDIT above proves that beyond a reasonable doubt!
No, dark monks used to be overpowered. They fixed it. What I want is for them to simply not break them again.

Balthazar_No_Oni
03-02-2011, 09:46 AM
I never said it was "my way or the highway."
As a matter of fact, I never offered any suggestions until just a moment ago, so "my way" never existed.
All I said was that THAT WAY was not the way.


No, dark monk's used to be overpowered. They fixed it. What I want is for them to simply not break them again.

Actually you did, or am I mistaken that you said that no monk with SA should ever be better at SA than ANY ROGUE, even one that neglects SA?

So a monk would be spending 2 Feats and 10 or so AP's to get an SA equal to a Rogue that NEGLECTS TOTALLY SA.

You dont see a problem with your Logic?

Calebro
03-02-2011, 09:48 AM
Actually you did, or am I mistaken that you said that no monk with SA should ever be better at SA than ANY ROGUE, even one that neglects SA?

So a monk would be spending 2 Feats and 10 or so AP's to get an SA equal to a Rogue that NEGLECTS TOTALLY SA.

You dont see a problem with your Logic?

Arguing against someone else's suggestion and giving reasoning why is not a suggestion of it's own. So no, I didn't offer any suggestion until just a moment ago with the t3 ability being ToD.

Balthazar_No_Oni
03-02-2011, 10:01 AM
Arguing against someone else's suggestion and giving reasoning why is not a suggestion of it's own. So no, I didn't offer any suggestion until just a moment ago with the t3 ability being ToD.

You think your abolute isnt a "MY way or the Highway" type statement? Wow. Ill ask again.

Actually you did, or am I mistaken that you said that no monk with SA should ever be better at SA than ANY ROGUE, even one that neglects SA?
So a monk would be spending 2 Feats and 10 or so AP's to get an SA equal to a Rogue that NEGLECTS TOTALLY SA.

You dont see a problem with your Logic?

Calebro
03-02-2011, 10:04 AM
You think your abolute isnt a "MY way or the Highway" type statement? Wow. Ill ask again.

Actually you did, or am I mistaken that you said that no monk with SA should ever be better at SA than ANY ROGUE, even one that neglects SA?
So a monk would be spending 2 Feats and 10 or so AP's to get an SA equal to a Rogue that NEGLECTS TOTALLY SA.

You dont see a problem with your Logic?

Yes, and that is not a suggestion. That is an argument against a suggestion with reasoning given as to why.

I'm done speaking on the SA part. I've said all I have to say on the matter. Read the thread if you want to see a response to anything else.

Talias006
03-02-2011, 10:12 AM
oh wait, we just got 1d6 per tier when they INTRODUCED ninja spy. in other words, ninja spy in 2 levels has the same sneak attack as assassin in 3.

What I fail to comprehend is the comparison of SA dice at given levels. People constantly gripe about the massive numbers, when it's really not that massive. Unless you get to level 20, and then the massive SA bonus sides with the Rogue.

Assassin at 6 gets +4d6. Ninja Spy at 6 gets +1d6. +3d6 difference.
Assassin at 12 gets +8d6. Ninja Spy at 12 gets +3d6. +5d6 difference
Assassin at 18 gets +12d6. Ninja Spy at 18 (most likely) gets +6d6. +6d6 difference
So a level 20 Assassin with the capstone will get +17d6. A Ninja Spy 3 at 20 will only get +6d6. If that Spy is a half-elf, then it'll get +9d6. Either way, the Assassin still gets a large bonus to their combat bonus over the Spy, just in SA dice.
(edit: I realized that a plain run-of-the-mill Rogue that is not an Assassin nor took the capstone would only get +10d6. That's still +1d6 over a build that also utilized a specific race to gain more SA dice, and +4d6 over any non half-elf Ninja Spy.)

That's not taking into account the whole Rogue abilities vs Monk abilities. Monk's are not locksmiths or trap-monkeys. They do not get other Rogue skills as class skills, only cross class. Sneak Attack does not represent a LARGE portion of the Rogue's abilities. Sneak Attack is AN ability, unless you count each die as an ability. And even then the Assassin far outstrips what the Ninja Spy can produce.

More on topic, I think that Ninja Spy 3, if they continue with the SS implementation, should make SS work as though unarmed for attack skills such as Stunning Fist. Perhaps the ki-based fog cloud effect could be consistent with Mind Fog, or at least Solid Fog.

Erl
03-02-2011, 10:17 AM
Just wanted to say, Cale.. that comparing any race of rogue with a single race (half elf) of monk is just flawed reasoning. Sure, you could say... "for another 3d6 sneak EVERYBODY WILL BE HELF"... but if sneak was the only consideration all those same people would make halfling rogues, so you'd have to consider halfling sneak damage in your calculations.

But as I think somebody mentioned earlier... you can't base prestige balance on one race, and likewise your argument shouldn't be based on one race. Do your calculations with 6d6 sneak from ninja 3 for the monk, and the innate 9d6 a level 18 rogue would have. I'm eyeballing it, but I think I know whose is higher.

Balthazar_No_Oni
03-02-2011, 10:21 AM
Yes, and that is not a suggestion. That is an argument against a suggestion with reasoning given as to why.

I'm done speaking on the SA part. I've said all I have to say on the matter. Read the thread if you want to see a response to anything else.

I have read the thread, hence why I replied to your arrogant, hypocritical posts about "someone not getting it".

And you still havent answered the question.

Balthazar_No_Oni
03-02-2011, 10:50 AM
Just want to say for the record that I'm aganst an additional 3-4d6 SA for Ninja 3 as well, just not for some of the reasons listed here. I honestly think that 1d6 will be enough added as well as a few other small abilities.

Say:
+1d6 SA (or +2 dam per SA roll)
+1 Ki gen for a SA
maybe a 30 second increase of shadow form ability.
40 ki DDoor ability cooldown 3 min or so

jkm
03-02-2011, 10:55 AM
What I fail to comprehend is the comparison of SA dice at given levels. People constantly gripe about the massive numbers, when it's really not that massive. Unless you get to level 20, and then the massive SA bonus sides with the Rogue.

Assassin at 6 gets +4d6. Ninja Spy at 6 gets +1d6. +3d6 difference.
Assassin at 12 gets +8d6. Ninja Spy at 12 gets +3d6. +5d6 difference
Assassin at 18 gets +12d6. Ninja Spy at 18 (most likely) gets +6d6. +6d6 difference
So a level 20 Assassin with the capstone will get +17d6. A Ninja Spy 3 at 20 will only get +6d6. If that Spy is a half-elf, then it'll get +9d6. Either way, the Assassin still gets a large bonus to their combat bonus over the Spy, just in SA dice.
(edit: I realized that a plain run-of-the-mill Rogue that is not an Assassin nor took the capstone would only get +10d6. That's still +1d6 over a build that also utilized a specific race to gain more SA dice, and +4d6 over any non half-elf Ninja Spy.)

That's not taking into account the whole Rogue abilities vs Monk abilities.

yes it is. 1d6 per odd level is a rogue ability. it is entirely moot to the discussion of PrE vs PrE.

monks get escalating weapon damage as a class feature. monks get an alacrity bonus to unarmed that rogues don't get. monks get immunities, run speed, a natural insta-kill attack, 3 bonus feats that actually work right, blah blah blah. i've never once brought these into the comparison for sneak attack damage.

i've also not brought in other enhancements -> rogues don't get a 500/250 point attack. they don't get the ability to increase a stat by 4. they don't get the ability to do extra elemental/raw damage on an attack. they don't get healing amp. they don't get a death attack that bypasses epic ward (void 4).

what i've been arguing is that every 1d6 of sneak attack damage benefits a monk a lot more than a rogue because of a lot higher doublestrike chance and unarmed alacrity. by escalating that 1d6 through 3 tiers to 6d6 pushes it a lot higher than 100% over the 3d6 that the rogue gets.

dozkal-mo
03-02-2011, 11:44 AM
You know, there's actually a build floating around in the forums that's a shuriken-based monk build. It's pretty sick, actually. I wish I could find it.

And I thought of another idea. How about an increased crit range and/or multiplier on anything that qualifies as a SA?

Balthazar_No_Oni
03-02-2011, 11:49 AM
You know, there's actually a build floating around in the forums that's a shuriken-based monk build. It's pretty sick, actually. I wish I could find it.

And I thought of another idea. How about an increased crit range and/or multiplier on anything that qualifies as a SA?

Sick as in, sick like a 100 year old cancer patient, right?

Tirisha
03-02-2011, 07:56 PM
FIXED

I was there to clarify an available ability of a DARK MONK its there it can be used its up to you to use it in an effective manner, and if I can/did land it on a lvl20TR WF wiz in PvP it can be used.

Sure it can be used can it be used when it's actually useful(on a boss)? Well my Wis Build monk has found one instance in the game where that is the case In EDA the first boss Fire Ele has a low enough fort that I can land it on him long enough to benefit from the use of ki outside of that.... I use the ability religiously (on bosses) and have never even benefited from it (i got too try right?).

DethTrip
03-04-2011, 08:17 AM
Still looking for more suggestions. Thanks.

Jrstevenson07
03-04-2011, 08:53 AM
How about a ninja-ish teleport (thinking similar to orthons and devils)
Maybe a 10 second manyshot type shuriken ability (shuriken aint so worthless now eh?)

Also quit obsessing over the sneak attack comparison to assassin. AssasinII gives 1D6 but also poisons and assasinate. AssasinIII gives 1D6 and every vorpal strike is instakill. 3D6 for NinjaSpyIII doesnt even come close.

dozkal-mo
03-04-2011, 09:33 AM
Sick as in, sick like a 100 year old cancer patient, right?

No. And that comment was unnecessary.

Using a Min II Shuriken, the build was critting for around 100 and attacked 3-4 times a second.

DethTrip
03-04-2011, 09:44 AM
How about a ninja-ish teleport (thinking similar to orthons and devils)
Maybe a 10 second manyshot type shuriken ability (shuriken aint so worthless now eh?)

Also quit obsessing over the sneak attack comparison to assassin. AssasinII gives 1D6 but also poisons and assasinate. AssasinIII gives 1D6 and every vorpal strike is instakill. 3D6 for NinjaSpyIII doesnt even come close.

Very good ideas and very good point. Will add to the OP. Thanks.

DethTrip
03-07-2011, 10:19 AM
Please add more ideas. Thanks.

Carpone
03-07-2011, 01:36 PM
Quit reordering the items in the OP if you want to facilitate discussion. It's annoying as hell to figure out what you added/changed/whatever.


1. While in Greater Shadow Fade (or shadow fade) your critical unarmed attacks drain 1-3 levels from your target
Garbage in epics where you run into Death Ward (which stops level draining). I suspect you'll see alot more Death Ward in future epics to thwart Mass Hold Monster/Dreamspitter arcane soloing. There's already some of that in Chronoscope.

DethTrip
03-07-2011, 01:48 PM
Quit reordering the items in the OP if you want to facilitate discussion. It's annoying as hell to figure out what you added/changed/whatever.


Garbage in epics where you run into Death Ward (which stops level draining). I suspect you'll see alot more Death Ward in future epics to thwart Mass Hold Monster/Dreamspitter arcane soloing. There's already some of that in Chronoscope.

I've been updating the OP as more suggestions come in. Sorry if that confuses you.

Death Ward stops all negative energy effects, which includes touch of death. Still wouldn't call the idea garbage.

Thanks for your charming insight.

Calebro
03-07-2011, 02:09 PM
I've been updating the OP as more suggestions come in. Sorry if that confuses you.

Death Ward stops all negative energy effects, which includes touch of death. Still wouldn't call the idea garbage.

Thanks for your charming insight.

His complaint was that you keep reordering the OP, not that you're editing it. Add new items to the list, rather than reorganizing the list every time you add something.

As to your new list:

1. While in Greater Shadow Fade (or shadow fade) your critical unarmed attacks drain 1-3 levels from your target You just want to give dark monks the basic equivalent of a level 4 spell, that goes off automatically 10% of the time you strike?
2. +1 enhanced ki generation you get this at cap, and again while in sneak mode. That's not enough?
3. An instant death assassin type strike that is better than quivering palm quivering palm is fine if you didn't dump Wis. You know, wisdom, one of a monk's primary stats.... OIt's only weakness is that it targets Fort.... just like almost every other instadeath effect in the game.
4. Rolling a natural 20 does void IV effect minus the added damage and only on a sneak attack Yet another instadeath effect.
5. Decrease the cooldown of touch of death No. The cooldown timer offsets the fact that a monk can do this without end, unlike casters who have to manage SP.
6. Teleport to enemies like orthons and devils do abundant step
7. Greater Shadow Fade (50% incorporeality that lasts 2 minutes) Shadow Fade is fine as it is
8. Add another 3d6 or 4d6 sneak attack damage Too much
9. Add wisdom modifier to damage Not before Rogues get Shadow Blade feat. That feat actually exists in DnD, unlike what you're asking for.
10. Lengthen shadow fade duration (if not creating greater shadow fade) again, shadow fade is fine as it is
11. Replace short swords on spy I and II with shuriken abilities You want to offer a WORSE weapon instead? OK, sure....
12. Shuriken Manyshot skill that lasts for 10 or 20 seconds Ten Thousand Stars
13. Create an instant death shuriken attack for spy II Yet another instadeath effect, but you want this one at level 12. You already basically get one at level 9, which is NINE levels earlier than AAs get Slaying Arrows, and you want ANOTHER one?
14. Add to the threat and/or multiplier of a critical hit +1 threat range I might be OK with. +1 multiplier is too much as monks usually have many ways of creating autocrits
15. Add a ddoor ki skill abundant step
16. Add a mist creating ki skill shadow fade is close enough
17. Hide-in-plain-sight shadow fade is close enough
18. True seeing are you not wearing Tharne's Goggles on your Ninja? Why not?
19. Ghost touch Spectral Gloves, or second piece of the Tharne's set

Robi3.0
03-07-2011, 02:20 PM
His complaint was that you keep reordering the OP, not that you're editing it. Add new items to the list, rather than reorganizing the list every time you add something.

As to your new list:

1. While in Greater Shadow Fade (or shadow fade) your critical unarmed attacks drain 1-3 levels from your target You just want to give dark monks the basic equivalent of a level 4 spell, that goes off automatically 10% of the time you strike?
2. +1 enhanced ki generation you get this at cap, and again while in sneak mode. That's not enough?
3. An instant death assassin type strike that is better than quivering palm quivering palm is fine if you didn't dump Wis. You know, wisdom, one of a monk's primary stats.... OIt's only weakness is that it targets Fort.... just like almost every other instadeath effect in the game.
4. Rolling a natural 20 does void IV effect minus the added damage and only on a sneak attack Yet another instadeath effect.
5. Decrease the cooldown of touch of death No. The cooldown timer offsets the fact that a monk can do this without end, unlike casters who have to manage SP.
6. Teleport to enemies like orthons and devils do abundant step
7. Greater Shadow Fade (50% incorporeality that lasts 2 minutes) Shadow Fade is fine as it is
8. Add another 3d6 or 4d6 sneak attack damage Too much
9. Add wisdom modifier to damage Not before Rogues get Shadow Blade feat. That feat actually exists in DnD, unlike what you're asking for.
10. Lengthen shadow fade duration (if not creating greater shadow fade) again, shadow fade is fine as it is
11. Replace short swords on spy I and II with shuriken abilities You want to offer a WORSE weapon instead? OK, sure....
12. Shuriken Manyshot skill that lasts for 10 or 20 seconds Ten Thousand Stars
13. Create an instant death shuriken attack for spy II Yet another instadeath effect, but you want this one at level 12. You already basically get one at level 9, which is NINE levels earlier than AAs get Slaying Arrows, and you want ANOTHER one?
14. Add to the threat and/or multiplier of a critical hit +1 threat range I might be OK with. +1 multiplier is too much as monks usually have many ways of creating autocrits
15. Add a ddoor ki skill abundant step
16. Add a mist creating ki skill shadow fade is close enough
17. Hide-in-plain-sight shadow fade is close enough
18. True seeing are you not wearing Tharne's Goggles on your Ninja? Why not?
19. Ghost touch Spectral Gloves, or second piece of the Tharne's set

Oh great and mighty ever knowledgeable Calebro what should Ninja Spy 3 look like, or do you think the PrE is just fine with only 2 tiers?

Calebro
03-07-2011, 02:24 PM
Oh great and mighty ever knowledgeable Calebro what should Ninja Spy 3 look like, or do you think the PrE is just fine with only 2 tiers?

I've already answered that.
Ninja Spy 2 should have added 1d6 SA instead of 2d6, along with the water walking.
Ninja 3 should add a third d6 and offer Touch of Death as it's PrE ability, removing it from lvl9, and changing it back to it's original piercing.
That would have been the right way to implement Ninja Spy IMO.

Robi3.0
03-07-2011, 02:28 PM
I've already answered that.
Ninja Spy 2 should have added 1d6 SA instead of 2d6, along with the water walking.
Ninja 3 should add a third d6 and offer Touch of Death as it's PrE ability, removing it from lvl9, and changing it back to it's original piercing.

LOL, So basically you think that the Ninja Spy PrE not only doesn't need anything else, but also needs nerfed by spreading abilities currently granted over 12 level over 18 levels instead.

Interesting and completely silly thought.

Calebro
03-07-2011, 02:34 PM
LOL, So basically you think that the Ninja Spy PrE not only doesn't need anything else, but also needs nerfed by spreading abilities currently granted over 12 level over 18 levels instead.

Interesting and completely silly thought.

ToD was overpowered at level 9. Especially considering AAs get a similar ability at level 18. Slotting it in at tier 3 makes much more sense, and always has.
Changing it back to piercing would allow it on DW'd mobs as well.
Granting it at t3 would also free up those AP spent on prereqs for other things.

And no, I don't think it needs anything else. I think it got too much too fast, and it is basically complete at tier 2, which is exactly the problem with trying to find something for t3 that isn't overpowered or redundant.

Zorack00
03-07-2011, 02:51 PM
His complaint was that you keep reordering the OP, not that you're editing it. Add new items to the list, rather than reorganizing the list every time you add something.

As to your new list:

1. While in Greater Shadow Fade (or shadow fade) your critical unarmed attacks drain 1-3 levels from your target You just want to give dark monks the basic equivalent of a level 4 spell, that goes off automatically 10% of the time you strike?
2. +1 enhanced ki generation you get this at cap, and again while in sneak mode. That's not enough?
3. An instant death assassin type strike that is better than quivering palm quivering palm is fine if you didn't dump Wis. You know, wisdom, one of a monk's primary stats.... OIt's only weakness is that it targets Fort.... just like almost every other instadeath effect in the game.
4. Rolling a natural 20 does void IV effect minus the added damage and only on a sneak attack Yet another instadeath effect.
5. Decrease the cooldown of touch of death No. The cooldown timer offsets the fact that a monk can do this without end, unlike casters who have to manage SP.
6. Teleport to enemies like orthons and devils do abundant step
7. Greater Shadow Fade (50% incorporeality that lasts 2 minutes) Shadow Fade is fine as it is
8. Add another 3d6 or 4d6 sneak attack damage Too much
9. Add wisdom modifier to damage Not before Rogues get Shadow Blade feat. That feat actually exists in DnD, unlike what you're asking for.
10. Lengthen shadow fade duration (if not creating greater shadow fade) again, shadow fade is fine as it is
11. Replace short swords on spy I and II with shuriken abilities You want to offer a WORSE weapon instead? OK, sure....
12. Shuriken Manyshot skill that lasts for 10 or 20 seconds Ten Thousand Stars
13. Create an instant death shuriken attack for spy II Yet another instadeath effect, but you want this one at level 12. You already basically get one at level 9, which is NINE levels earlier than AAs get Slaying Arrows, and you want ANOTHER one?
14. Add to the threat and/or multiplier of a critical hit +1 threat range I might be OK with. +1 multiplier is too much as monks usually have many ways of creating autocrits
15. Add a ddoor ki skill abundant step
16. Add a mist creating ki skill shadow fade is close enough
17. Hide-in-plain-sight shadow fade is close enough
18. True seeing are you not wearing Tharne's Goggles on your Ninja? Why not?
19. Ghost touch Spectral Gloves, or second piece of the Tharne's set


How about we just make a Ninja Spy III that says

LOL NO, Calebro disapproves!

Seriously.

NeutronStar
03-07-2011, 02:56 PM
ToD was overpowered at level 9. Especially considering AAs get a similar ability at level 18. Slotting it in at tier 3 makes much more sense, and always has.
Changing it back to piercing would allow it on DW'd mobs as well.
Granting it at t3 would also free up those AP spent on prereqs for other things.

And no, I don't think it needs anything else. I think it got too much too fast, and it is basically complete at tier 2, which is exactly the problem with trying to find something for t3 that isn't overpowered or redundant.

Ok, I get moving ToD back to a level 18 ability like the AA Slayer Arrows. That makes sense. How about making ToD Untyped damage again but with a save? Aren't the AA Slayer Arrows that way?

Robi3.0
03-07-2011, 02:57 PM
On a serious note.

An ability that allows Ninja's to make currently unarmed only strikes while wielding short swords would be cool. ei... ToD strike while fighting with a short sword, or stunning fist while fighting with a short sword.

Calebro
03-07-2011, 02:58 PM
Ok, I get moving ToD back to a level 18 ability like the AA Slayer Arrows. That makes sense. How about making ToD Untyped damage again but with a save? Aren't the AA Slayer Arrows that way?

It was never untyped. It was piercing, which is why I said it should change back to piercing.

On a serious note.

An ability that allows Ninja's to make currently unarmed only strikes while wielding short swords would be cool. ei... ToD strike while fighting with a short sword, or stunning fist while fighting with a short sword.

I agree. Every monk strike should be available with every monk weapon. If you are centered, you should be able to use anything in your arsenal. Touch of Death would bring some arguments with this, as would Quivering Palm, but I've always agreed that they should be available.

Robi3.0
03-07-2011, 03:06 PM
I agree. Every monk strike should be available with every monk weapon. If you are centered, you should be able to use anything in your arsenal. Touch of Death would bring some arguments with this, as would Quivering Palm, but I've always agreed that they should be available.

Not really much to argue about there are weapon enchantments in PnP that allow for just what I have suggested, at includes abilities like Quivering Palm and ToD if it existed in PnP


Ki Focus: The magic weapon serves as a channel for the wielder’s ki, allowing her to use her special ki attacks through the weapon as if they were unarmed attacks. These attacks include the monk’s stunning attack, ki strike, and quivering palm, as well as the Stunning Fist feat. Only melee weapons can have the ki focus ability.

NeutronStar
03-07-2011, 03:15 PM
It was never untyped. It was piercing, which is why I said it should change back to piercing.

Ok, I'm with you then Calebro.

It should also provide a Saving Throw for half damage if the AA Slayer Arrows do.

Calebro
03-07-2011, 03:38 PM
I don't want to be the guy that calls for a nerf, which is why you don't see me starting a thread about this. But you asked me what I thought ns3 should look like, and there it is. If they want to get it right, they need to retro-fit it, which unfortunately would call for a nerf of TOD from lvl 9 [purchase] to lvl18 [granted with the PrE].

As I said, the difficulty with finding something appropriate for t3 is that the PrE is basically complete at t2, so anything added will either be OP or redundant.

The solution would be a nerf in most people's eyes.

NeutronStar
03-07-2011, 03:41 PM
The solution would be a nerf in most people's eyes.

I'm with you. I think you're right.

Robi3.0
03-07-2011, 04:18 PM
I don't want to be the guy that calls for a nerf, which is why you don't see me starting a thread about this. But you asked me what I thought ns3 should look like, and there it is. If they want to get it right, they need to retro-fit it, which unfortunately would call for a nerf of TOD from lvl 9 [purchase] to lvl18 [granted with the PrE].

As I said, the difficulty with finding something appropriate for t3 is that the PrE is basically complete at t2, so anything added will either be OP or redundant.

The solution would be a nerf in most people's eyes.

Offering "redundant" abilities on top off rearranging thing would be better then to hardcore nerf you suggested.

So what if you can get True Seeing on Tharn's goggles give it to ninja allowing them the chance to put Sneak damage on the 5th birthday hat and GS goggles or what ever on their monks. Better yet allow Tier 3 Ninja Spy to unlock set bonus of equal(or better) sneak damage on the Ninja Amarath set So that it not completely useless.

Give them ghost touch and allow them to take off their spectral gloves switching them for something else. Spec gloves aren't irreplaceable until they are epic'd

Ddoor and Abundant step are not similar in DDO so I am not sure way that suggest is redundant. (to be clear I don't think Ddoor is a fitting ability for ninja's)

Giving giving player's something even if it can be gotten with gear is better then just beating them senseless with a nerf bat. Then telling them they should have seen it coming.

Cyr
03-07-2011, 04:20 PM
ToD was overpowered at level 9. Especially considering AAs get a similar ability at level 18. Slotting it in at tier 3 makes much more sense, and always has.
Changing it back to piercing would allow it on DW'd mobs as well.
Granting it at t3 would also free up those AP spent on prereqs for other things.

And no, I don't think it needs anything else. I think it got too much too fast, and it is basically complete at tier 2, which is exactly the problem with trying to find something for t3 that isn't overpowered or redundant.

So you want to change an existing ability to hurt one build type (splash dark monks) to help a different built type (pure dark monks).

Can't say I can ever agree with a suggestion that does that.

Calebro
03-07-2011, 04:23 PM
Offering "redundant" abilities on top off rearranging thing would be better then to hardcore nerf you suggested.

So what if you can get True Seeing on Tharn's goggles give it to ninja allowing them the chance to put Sneak damage on the 5th birthday hat and GS goggles or what ever on their monks. Better yet allow Tier 3 Ninja Spy to unlock set bonus of equal(or better) sneak damage on the Ninja Amarath set So that it not completely useless.

Give them ghost touch and allow them to take off their spectral gloves switching them for something else. Spec gloves aren't irreplaceable until they are epic'd

Ddoor and Abundant step are not similar in DDO so I am not sure way that suggest is redundant. (to be clear I don't think Ddoor is a fitting ability for ninja's)

Giving giving player's something even if it can be gotten with gear is better then just beating them senseless with a nerf bat. Then telling them they should have seen it coming.
Monks already have many class abilities which allow them to not need gear for things that everyone else needs gear for.
Featherfall, poison immunity, etc. I see offering even more of this as too much. Why should monks be the only class that gets everything for free, so they can wear only DPS gear, even moreso than now?

Ddoor and abundant step are *exactly* the same thing from a PnP standpoint. Abundant step was simply altered for DDO. So they already have the Ddoor ability that they're going to get, and it was changed.

Calebro
03-07-2011, 04:25 PM
So you want to change an existing ability to hurt one build type (splash dark monks) to help a different built type (pure dark monks).

Can't say I can ever agree with a suggestion that does that.

I didn't say I wanted to. I said that's what should have been done to begin with. There's a difference.
You'll notice that I specifically said that I didn't want to ask for a nerf.
Do I think one is warranted? Yes.
Do I think that would be the solution to the ns3 issue? Yes.
Am I asking for one? No.
I was asked what I thought, and I answered.

DnD3
03-07-2011, 04:52 PM
I remember seeing one of the dev say that the ToD nerf hit monks harder than they would like and that they would make up for it, so I can only assume that Ninja 3 will be good rather than rebalance to ToD to lets say have a will save instead of fort save and make the skill gain damage and capping at 500 at level 20, and 6d6 sneack attack at level 18 seems like a given due to the progression of NS enhancement.

I do have to say that the posts complaining that 6d6 being overkill because with Half elf you can get a extra 3d6 pretty ridicolous. Yes its pretty close to what an "unoptimised" rogue w/o the capstone and Assassin enhancements get at level 20 and yes 9d6 is a better than 10d6 thanks to the ninjas faster attack speed and double strike, but why should the rest of the shadows monks suffer because some of you guys dislike Half elves dilletante getting an extra 3d6? godforbid there are shadow monks that aren't Half-Elf, while were here lets also remove Kensais Power surge because they can get strength very similar to unoptimised Barbarians.

waterboytkd
03-07-2011, 10:42 PM
I could actually get behind shifting ToD to NS3 instead of where it is, as the power level seems more appropriate for that level. The only tricks are then:

1) ToD would need to be replaced in that chain. Really, that whole chain of dark/elemental attacks that lead up to ToD needs to be redone. Honestly, both sides (light and dark) of those chains that culminated in Rise of the Phoenix/ToD should be redone. This thread (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=296606) has some rough ideas I had a while ago.

2) Well, this more or less rides on 1 as, when Henshin comes out (which is supposed to be the neutral monk), there needs to be a reason to take dark over light, and light over dark. Currently, Henshin will be dark (mostly) because access to ToD is better than Rise of the Phoenix or Grasp the Earth Dragon. If ToD became part of NS3, there would be no reason to be dark Henshin anymore. So, really, this is just 1 again. Those enhancement chains need to be redone and given some actual love.

DethTrip
03-08-2011, 08:33 AM
His complaint was that you keep reordering the OP, not that you're editing it. Add new items to the list, rather than reorganizing the list every time you add something.

As to your new list:

1. While in Greater Shadow Fade (or shadow fade) your critical unarmed attacks drain 1-3 levels from your target You just want to give dark monks the basic equivalent of a level 4 spell, that goes off automatically 10% of the time you strike? Same ability that is on both woowoo sticks. And I think the one is lvl12. This would be a lvl18 ability so yes, I still believe this to be a good idea and probably my favorite one
2. +1 enhanced ki generation you get this at cap, and again while in sneak mode. That's not enough? Nope. Give us another stacking +1 ki gen on hit please
3. An instant death assassin type strike that is better than quivering palm quivering palm is fine if you didn't dump Wis. You know, wisdom, one of a monk's primary stats.... OIt's only weakness is that it targets Fort.... just like almost every other instadeath effect in the game. I suggest something comparable to what assassins get
4. Rolling a natural 20 does void IV effect minus the added damage and only on a sneak attack Yet another instadeath effect. I suppose I could combine this one with #3 but if this idea doesn't get in then revert back to #3
5. Decrease the cooldown of touch of death No. The cooldown timer offsets the fact that a monk can do this without end, unlike casters who have to manage SP. If not adding another instant death effect, then reducing the cooldown of TOD would be another option
6. Teleport to enemies like orthons and devils do abundant step No, I mean actually teleport to them, not run fast to them. There is a difference
7. Greater Shadow Fade (50% incorporeality that lasts 2 minutes) Shadow Fade is fine as it is My opinion is still that making shadow fade better in some way is a very good option for ns3
8. Add another 3d6 or 4d6 sneak attack damage Too much Still disagree with you here
9. Add wisdom modifier to damage Not before Rogues get Shadow Blade feat. That feat actually exists in DnD, unlike what you're asking for. Probably not the best idea for a dark monk but still something to ponder
10. Lengthen shadow fade duration (if not creating greater shadow fade) again, shadow fade is fine as it is I still believe making shadow fade better for ns3 is a good idea
11. Replace short swords on spy I and II with shuriken abilities You want to offer a WORSE weapon instead? OK, sure.... OK, sure
12. Shuriken Manyshot skill that lasts for 10 or 20 seconds Ten Thousand Stars I don't believe ten thousand stars lets you throw multiple stars at once. That's what makes this a different idea
13. Create an instant death shuriken attack for spy II Yet another instadeath effect, but you want this one at level 12. You already basically get one at level 9, which is NINE levels earlier than AAs get Slaying Arrows, and you want ANOTHER one? Yes, an instadeath shuriken attack fits in very well with a ninja's abilities. Never watched a ninja movie? They throw a star and it hits the person in the eye instantly killing them
14. Add to the threat and/or multiplier of a critical hit +1 threat range I might be OK with. +1 multiplier is too much as monks usually have many ways of creating autocrits Not a huge fan of this but it was suggested by others in this thread and I wouldn't say it's a bad idea
15. Add a ddoor ki skill abundant step Not the same
16. Add a mist creating ki skill shadow fade is close enough not the same. This would create a concealing mist that would help party members
17. Hide-in-plain-sight shadow fade is close enough Greater Shadow Fade would be close enough
18. True seeing are you not wearing Tharne's Goggles on your Ninja? Why not? Reduces gear dependency and fits the flavor
19. Ghost touch Spectral Gloves, or second piece of the Tharne's set Reduces gear dependency and fits the flavor

It's not that hard to read the list again after the its been altered. The list isn't that long.

Balthazar_No_Oni
03-08-2011, 07:57 PM
I've already answered that.
Ninja Spy 2 should have added 1d6 SA instead of 2d6, along with the water walking.
Ninja 3 should add a third d6 and offer Touch of Death as it's PrE ability, removing it from lvl9, and changing it back to it's original piercing.
That would have been the right way to implement Ninja Spy IMO.

Lol and again instead of trying to help the discussion you bust out your nerf bat and try to argue that Darks as a WHOLE need to be nerfed. You probably think that this is a good idea too.

Darks are arguably worse than the new lights as is, but thats not enough for you. No, you want to take away the only ability that even makes it worth being a dark AND ADD IT TO A PRE and to the tier 3 that they wont get till lvl 18, and a pre that some darks dont even take. Bravo master nerfer!

Maybe MAYBE if it was just a straight lvl 18 enhancement instead of tying it to a PRE you could be seen as unbiased. What did a dark monk steal too many of your kills when you were a newbie or something?

There would be very few dark monks at all if your changes got imped. Heck my original dark monk didnt even take ninja spy as i wanted the APs for void.

Calebro
03-08-2011, 08:34 PM
Lol and again instead of trying to help the discussion you bust out your nerf bat and try to argue that Darks as a WHOLE need to be nerfed. You probably think that this is a good idea too.

Darks are arguably worse than the new lights as is, but thats not enough for you. No, you want to take away the only ability that even makes it worth being a dark AND ADD IT TO A PRE and to the tier 3 that they wont get till lvl 18, and a pre that some darks dont even take. Bravo master nerfer!

Maybe MAYBE if it was just a straight lvl 18 enhancement instead of tying it to a PRE you could be seen as unbiased. What did a dark monk steal too many of your kills when you were a newbie or something?

There would be very few dark monks at all if your changes got imped. Heck my original dark monk didnt even take ninja spy as i wanted the APs for void.

Maybe MAYBE if you read the thread.... right above you.... you'd see that I didn't ask for a nerf. I was asked what I thouhgt Ninja should be. I answered. That's all. I didn't and I won't ask for a nerf.

NeutronStar
03-08-2011, 10:33 PM
Maybe MAYBE if you read the thread.... right above you.... you'd see that I didn't ask for a nerf. I was asked what I thouhgt Ninja should be. I answered. That's all. I didn't and I won't ask for a nerf.

Forget it Calebro. Reading comprehension seems to have gone the way of the Dodo these days. :(

butlerfamilywa
03-09-2011, 08:55 AM
Ok, so let me get this straight, 1d6 sa, 2d6 sa, 3d6 sa = 6d6 sa for those who are intelligent, and play a Warforged, Human, Halfling, or Half-Orc Monk. Who choses to play a Half-Elf? Maybe someone who wants a Halfling without all the ugly animations (flame away)

I personally still to this day play a Warforged Monk. I get good healing amp, as well as not being able to be level drained, which is a killer to a Monk.

3d6 SA damage is on Par with Ninja Spy I & II.


Monk Ninja Spy I: Passive Benefit: proficient in shortswords and treat them as Ki weapons. You gain +2 Balance, Hide, Move Silently and gain 1d6 sneak attack as if you were a rogue. While sneaking, you move 10% faster and your passive ki generation when centered is increased by 1. Active Benefit: enter shadow form, becoming invisible and partially insubstantial. Consumes 15 Ki.

Monk Ninja Spy II: Passive Benefit: you gain Improved Critical: Shortsword, an additional +2 Balance, Hide, and Move Silently, and an additional +2d6 Sneak Attack (for a total of +3d6). You move an additional 10% faster while sneaking. Active Benefit: enter the Dance of the Water Strider, running on liquids so long as you continue to move and maintain your concentration. Consumes 20 Ki.

***Suggestion***

Monk Ninja Spy III: Passive Benefit: heck if I know.. Weapon Specialization for Shortswords, or a % chance at proc'n Slicing Blow while wielding shortswords? An additional +2 Balance, Hide, and Move Silently, and an additional +3d6 Sneak Attack (for a total of +6d6). You move 10% faster while sneaking (for a total of 30%) and your passive ki generation when centered is increased by 1 (for a total of 2). Active Benefit: <Insert Catchy Ninja Power Type Name> allowing you to increase your critical threat range by 1 for 30 seconds (15 seconds maybe?). Consumes 25 Ki.

***End Suggestion***

So there you have it... looking at the gameplay, available feats, ect.. I can forsee adding Slicing Blow (it comes on the Tempest ToD Set so a static SB isn't unheard of).. call it barbed weapons if you will...

Total of 30% faster movement while sneaking, rogues aren't complaining about this? Hmm... very useful for me.

The extra 1 ki while centered will go a long way to help monks regain their ki.. granted its not a HUGE leap in ki regen, but it is helpful...

The increase in critical threat range makes sense, even when using unarmed strikes.. it's called pressure points, key areas on the body that martial arts professionals attack to cause the most damage in the shortest possible time.


I think that this would work well.. yes 6d6 sneak attack damage is nice... and no you cannot seclude a PRE bonus just because of 1 race.

Personally I would take Half-Elf over Halfling when it comes to a monk, just to take the Rogue Dillie feat, yes. However, I hate being level drained, even if I can self-scroll restore.. its a pain and a hassle and I'd rather stay Warforged because of it :)

jkm
03-09-2011, 01:42 PM
i just threw some things together about how i'd like to see this PrE put together. as always, all i care about is a variety of viable builds. as proven by archmage, even if you totally mess up one or 2 lines, for the most part the PrE will be successful. this means less flak on the dev team and only minor tweaking.


Ninja Spy 1
improve tumble/jump 2, inevitable darkness, dodge, one of the ToD attacks
2 AP

Ninja Spy Paths (1 AP, Choose only 1)

Ninja Spy 1 - Way of the Sword
You are considered proficient with Short Swords and they are considered a Ki Weapon

Ninja Spy 1 - Way of the Hand
You get +2 sneak attack damage to Unarmed Attacks

Ninja Spy 1 - Way of the Kama
You get +1 crit range with kamas (to 19-20x2)

Ninja Spy 1 - Way of the Shuriken (heh)
You get +1 crit range with Shuriken (to 19-20x2)

Ninja Spy 1 - Generalist
You gain +1 Ki generation per hit

Ninja Spy 1 - Optional Abilities (1 AP, Requires Ninja Spy 1, Choose Only 1)
1d6 Sneak Attack Damage
Shadow Fade
+10 Hide and MS
+10% movement rate while sneaking

Ninja Spy 2
Requires Animal Path 2, 1 AP

Ninja Spy Paths (1 AP, Choose Only 1)

Ninja Spy 2 - Way of the Sword
Requires Way of the Sword 1
You are granted IC:Pierce with Shortswords

Ninja Spy 2 - Way of the Hand
Requires Way of the Hand 1
You get +2 sneak attack damage to Unarmed Attacks (total of +4)

Ninja Spy 2 - Way of the Kama
Requires Way of the Kama 1
You are granted IC:Slash with Kamas

Ninja Spy 2 - Way of the Shuriken (heh)
requires one of the Way of:
You get 10% alacrity bonus with Shuriken (to 19-20x2)

Ninja Spy 2 - Generalist
Requires one of the Way of:
You gain +2 DC to Monk Abilities while Sneak Attacking

Ninja Spy 2 - Optional Abilities (1 AP, Requires Ninja Spy 2, Choose Only 1)
1d6 Sneak Attack Damage (for total of 2d6)
Hide in Plain Sight
10% Threat Reduction
10% Enhancement Bonus to Attack Speed (Requires one of Way of X 2) - does not stack with haste
+1 Ki Generation per hit

Ninja Spy 3
Requires Animal Path 4, 1 AP

Ninja Spy Paths (1 AP, Choose Only 1)

Ninja Spy 3 - Way of the Sword
Requires Way of the Sword 2
You are granted +1 Crit Modifier to Shortswords (17-20x3)

Ninja Spy 3 - Way of the Hand
Requires Way of the Hand 2
You get +2 sneak attack damage to Unarmed Attacks (total of +6)

Ninja Spy 3 - Way of the Kama
Requires Way of the Kama 2
You are granted 10% alacrity insight bonus for kamas

Ninja Spy 3 - Way of the Shuriken (heh)
requires one of the Way of Level 2:
You get a +2 bonus to Crit Modifier of Shuriken (to 19-20x4)

Ninja Spy 3 - Generalist
Requires one of the Way of Level 2:
You gain 10% insight bonus to run speed

Ninja Spy 3 - Optional Abilities (1 AP, Requires Ninja Spy 2, Choose Only 1)
1d6 Sneak Attack Damage (for total of 3d6)
Shadow of Vol - 5 Insight Bonus to Fire Resist + 10 points of Untyped Damage/2 points of Strength Damage on a Vorpal Strike

sorry, out of time to finish out the optional abilities.

Balthazar_No_Oni
03-10-2011, 12:11 PM
Maybe MAYBE if you read the thread.... right above you.... you'd see that I didn't ask for a nerf. I was asked what I thouhgt Ninja should be. I answered. That's all. I didn't and I won't ask for a nerf.

Maybe Maybe, if you werent so blinded by your subconcious need to totally bork the monk class you would see how BADLY your suggestion would do just that. Regardless how many time you say you "dont want to nerf them" all of your suggestions would DO JUST THAT.

Calebro
03-10-2011, 12:47 PM
Maybe Maybe, if you werent so blinded by your subconcious need to totally bork the monk class you would see how BADLY your suggestion would do just that. Regardless how many time you say you "dont want to nerf them" all of your suggestions would DO JUST THAT.

What you fail to understand is that my "suggestion" as you call it, wasn't a suggestion. It was an answer to a question that was asked of me.
I'm not saying that they should change it.
I'm saying that they should have done it that way to begin with.
I said that I don't want to ask for a nerf, and I said that the proper way to implement Ninja Spy was to nerf ToD.... ergo.... I'm not asking for my idea to be implemented. It was strictly an hypothetical envisioning of how Ninja Spy should have been.
It was an answer to the question of how I would have done Ninja Spy. Nothing more. Just like I have said numerous times.

Balthazar_No_Oni
03-11-2011, 09:21 PM
What you fail to understand is that my "suggestion" as you call it, wasn't a suggestion. It was an answer to a question that was asked of me.
I'm not saying that they should change it.
I'm saying that they should have done it that way to begin with.
I said that I don't want to ask for a nerf, and I said that the proper way to implement Ninja Spy was to nerf ToD.... ergo.... I'm not asking for my idea to be implemented. It was strictly an hypothetical envisioning of how Ninja Spy should have been.
It was an answer to the question of how I would have done Ninja Spy. Nothing more. Just like I have said numerous times.

So basically you wanted Dark monks to be useless unless they're ninja spy? Really you think thats the best way to go? Because dark monk dps is absolute crud without TOD. There is absolutly no reason to play one with how you think ninja spy should be. none.

QuantumFX
03-12-2011, 12:00 AM
You call *that* one of the best observations from the thread? They aren't even good ideas, let alone what anyone should consider the best. I'll take them in order here.

Neg repped and reported for trolling. Just because you don’t like my idea is no reason to single me out.

Edit: Toned it back. Read a really disturbing Failbook posts about trolling. While it applies to this guy, I'm not going to let it apply to me.

QuantumFX
03-12-2011, 02:42 AM
3. An instant death assassin type strike that is better than quivering palm quivering palm is fine if you didn't dump Wis. You know, wisdom, one of a monk's primary stats.... OIt's only weakness is that it targets Fort.... just like almost every other instadeath effect in the game. I suggest something comparable to what assassins get

It's not that hard to read the list again after the its been altered. The list isn't that long.

FYI: a lot of the thinking behind that suggestion is that a level 9 strike is *way* more powerful than a level 16 ability. Since the devs seem to be reluctant to address the problems with the level 9 ability the proposed solution is to bring the level 16 ability up and add in some flavor.

Calebro
03-12-2011, 04:40 AM
Neg repped and reported for trolling. Just because you don’t like my idea is no reason to single me out.

Edit: Toned it back. Read a really disturbing Failbook posts about trolling. While it applies to this guy, I'm not going to let it apply to me.

Reported for trolling?
How were my comments, which were in response to someone else's post [not yours] trolling?
Do I think your ideas were good? No.
Was I posting that to elicit a response from you? Hardly, considering you weren't even involved in the discussion until a moment ago. Just because I disagree with you doesn't mean I was trolling.
In fact, you are the one that's trolling in this situation.

QuantumFX
03-12-2011, 10:23 PM
Reported for trolling?

While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community. To this end you may not harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other members or Turbine staff. This includes, but is not limited to: Bringing disagreements with someone into unrelated threads or blog posts/comments

In bold.

And in what reality is "They aren't even good ideas, let alone what anyone should consider the best." *not* a trolling response to my post?

Calebro
03-12-2011, 10:40 PM
While participating on the Community Sites, you must respect the rights of others to participate in the community. To this end you may not harass, defraud, threaten or cause distress and/or unwanted attention to other members or Turbine staff. This includes, but is not limited to: Bringing disagreements with someone into unrelated threads or blog posts/comments

In bold.

And in what reality is "They aren't even good ideas, let alone what anyone should consider the best." *not* a trolling response to my post?

I highlighted the important word in red for you.
1. I didn't bring you into this conversation. Someone else did that. Therefore it is completely related.
2. I can disagree with it all I want to in this thread because someone posted it in this thread.
3. Troll: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29) In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into a desired emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.
This was not inflammatory. I didn't insult you in any way. I stated that the ideas were bad, which doesn't reflect on you at all. It reflects on your ideas.
This was not extraneous in any way. It was completely relevant to the topic at hand.
This was not posted to provoke any particular response, even though I knew what the response would likely be, which is exactly what it always is in monk threads. It was my opinion.
It was not disruptive, and in fact spurred on some good debate and a few good ideas.

Like it or not, but my disagreement with your idea doesn't make me a troll. Even if I say your ideas are ridiculous.
Or do you think I posted that two weeks ago, just HOPING that you'd come here and argue with me?

In point of fact, THIS is the post that is trolling here:

Read a really disturbing Failbook posts about trolling. While it applies to this guy, I'm not going to let it apply to me.
If you want to debate the ideas, feel free.
But now you're calling me out personally with negative connotations. That's inflammatory. That's trolling, my friend.
Instead of directly flaming me, you chose a passive-aggressive approach, but it's still flaming.