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EllisDee37
02-22-2011, 03:24 PM
From what I can tell, the key to DPS is critical range and critical multiplier, so any weapon with a better crit signature is the better overall weapon for maximizing DPS. The numbers are pretty clear for khopesh vs bastard and kukri vs handaxe, but I'm not entirely convinced about falchion vs greatsword.

By my calculations, the crit advantage of the falchion doesn't break even with a greatsword until +21 damage per hit (+6d6) with a 10 to hit roll. The 10 to hit roll is just randomly selected; other discussions I've had seem to imply that when DPS is crucial -- like against big bosses -- partymembers will be there to buff your to-hit so that only a 1 will miss. With a 2 to hit, the falchion doesn't break even with a greatsword until +37 damage per hit. That's over 10d6 damage bonus every single roll, which I'm thinking is approaching the limit. And that's the break even point; anything less than that and the greatsword is mathematically better.

At the extreme end of maxing out DPS at all costs, it seems to me that the falchion will perform slightly better than the greatsword, but the difference would be mostly negligible. At all other times the greatsword would deal out noticeably more damage. So IMO that makes the greatsword the weapon of choice for two-handed fighting.

Just to toss it out there, at those same levels (2 to hit, +37 damage per roll) the khopesh does better base damage (954.5) than the greatsword and falchion (924.0) which is amazing. The two-handers also deal out splash damage so probably come out ahead of a sword & shield khopesh fighter, but geez, at very high levels dual-wield khopeshes dish out unreal damage.

Are my conclusions off? I see references to falchions being the best two-handed weapon, but greatswords look better to me. Then again, I'm still pretty new (first time I ever played was a few weeks ago) so I could be vastly underestimating the damage bonuses at the highest levels. I'll say one thing: the damage bonuses are per hit, so any damage boost clickie that has a 3-second cooldown is only going to apply a fraction of that bonus on a per-hit basis.

stille_nacht
02-22-2011, 03:27 PM
lets see... assuming improved crit

Falchion 18-20
2-14 = 1 per str increase
15-20 = 2 per str

Greatsword 19-20
2-16= 1 per str increase
17-20= 2 per increase

so, thats 13 + 12 divided by 20 (25/20) vs. 15+8 divided by 20 (23/20)

means its got 2/ 20 over the Gsword, which is = .1 more per str bonus, which means that the Falchion is better at 20 bonus (str, enhancement, etc.) (because it looks cooler than a GS :])

however, then you factor in bursting effects.

5.5 (1d10) on 15-20 vs. 5.5 (1d10) on 17-20
falchion comes ahead a good 33/20 vs. 22/20, 11/20 more per bursting effect (.55 more damage per hit per burst)

PopeJual
02-22-2011, 03:31 PM
Just had this discussion very recently.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=302377

If you are going to be weilding a two handed weapon, then Falchion will beat the Greatsword if you have a significant bonus to damage (i.e. if you're playing a melee character that isn't a complete failure at melee).

In situations where you get a critical on every hit (e.g. Stunning Blow, Stunning Fist, Hold Person, Hold Monster, Mass Hold Monster, stat damage taking a stat down to 0, etc.), the Greataxe will outperform both the Falchion and the Greatsword.

The Epic Sword of Shadow will outperform everything.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Sword_of_Shadow

jwdaniels
02-22-2011, 03:35 PM
Just had this discussion very recently.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=302377

If you are going to be weilding a two handed weapon, then Falchion will beat the Greatsword if you have a significant bonus to damage (i.e. if you're playing a melee character that isn't a complete failure at melee).

In situations where you get a critical on every hit (e.g. Stunning Blow, Stunning Fist, Hold Person, Hold Monster, Mass Hold Monster, stat damage taking a stat down to 0, etc.), the Greataxe will outperform both the Falchion and the Greatsword.

The Epic Sword of Shadow will outperform everything.
http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Sword_of_Shadow

If you throw crit-immunity/fortification into the mix, you will find that the falchion very quickly loses out on some of it's advantages.

If you look at great axe vs. great sword vs. falchion, you will find that the falchion is best when the great sword is worse, and vice versa. The great sword is pretty much always in the middle of the other two.

The three weapons are fairly well balanced, which is why there isn't a definitive best option for all situations (other than Epic SoS, which isn't the typical). It's too bad that other weapon choices weren't this balanced...

stille_nacht
02-22-2011, 03:39 PM
yeah, but in general terms, falchion is better. on mobs with % fort, it takes a larger amount for Falchion to pull ahead though...

Also, autocrit damage should not be considered as to much of a reason to make a choice because A: if its held, its going to die reallly fast anyway and B: heavy pick is best in autocrit situations compared to anything.

PopeJual
02-22-2011, 03:43 PM
If you throw crit-immunity/fortification into the mix, you will find that the falchion very quickly loses out on some of it's advantages.

If you look at great axe vs. great sword vs. falchion, you will find that the falchion is best when the great sword is worse, and vice versa. The great sword is pretty much always in the middle of the other two.

The three weapons are fairly well balanced, which is why there isn't a definitive best option for all situations (other than Epic SoS, which isn't the typical). It's too bad that other weapon choices weren't this balanced...

I mostly agree with you. The Greataxe and the Greatsword are *very* close in DPS against non-autocrit enemies wiht 0% fortification, 50% fortification and 100% fortification for a variety of characters and gear setups. The Greataxe is leaps and bounds ahead of the Greatsword when your enemy is in an autocrit situaiton (even if your enemy has 100% fort if you have any kind of Burst or Blast effect on the weapon).

The Falchion is also significantly ahead of the Greatsword at 0% and 50% fortification if you have a decent strength and other bonuses to damage. It's only at 100% fortification that a Greatsword is better and it's not that much better even then. The only significant enemies that you fight like that are Elementals, Constructs and Undead. In all three of those cases, the prefix and suffix are going to matter more than the weapon type unless you need a specific weapon type to get past their DR (e.g. Quarterstaff, Greatclub or Maul vs. Skeletons and some Golems).

And at low levels, it mostly doesn't matter what you swing. Once you get your hands on a Carnifex, then swing that (even if you're a Tempest Ranger) up to around level 10ish. Otherwise, swing a single weapon and wear a shield with nice armor for near invulnerability to melee attacks or just swing any old two handed weapon that you happen to find lying around.

jwdaniels
02-22-2011, 03:47 PM
yeah, but in general terms, falchion is better. on mobs with % fort, it takes a larger amount for Falchion to pull ahead though...

Also, autocrit damage should not be considered as to much of a reason to make a choice because A: if its held, its going to die reallly fast anyway and B: heavy pick is best in autocrit situations compared to anything.

Not entirely true - since strength bonus is multiplied x1.5 and power-attack bonus is multiplied x2 with the two-handed weapon and the base damage on a great axe is higher, depending upon the character it is possible to do more damage with a great axe than a heavy pick, particularly when considering a toon that has the THF enhancements. Just about anyone that would be choosing between falchion, great sword and great axe falls into this situation.

Chai
02-22-2011, 03:48 PM
+37 damage mod isnt hard to hit, even for a first life newb who rolled up a balanced PnP toon and didnt realize this game was designed with min maxing in mind.

On a 2 hander that means 58 str + regular power attack. This is with NO other additions from gear or feats.

For a half orc THF barbarian, their PA is 11 (+22 with 2 hander) That means you would need a whopping +15 damage mod from str and at str x 1.5 thats a 30 str (10 mod x 1.5)

A min maxed barbarian will have more str before any rages or buffs. A fighter who gains alot of damage mod from weapon spec + 3 tiers of kensai could dump str and still reach that mod, heh.

PopeJual
02-22-2011, 03:48 PM
yeah, but in general terms, falchion is better. on mobs with % fort, it takes a larger amount for Falchion to pull ahead though...

Also, autocrit damage should not be considered as to much of a reason to make a choice because A: if its held, its going to die reallly fast anyway and B: heavy pick is best in autocrit situations compared to anything.

If you're playing a character that is built for Two Handed Fighting, then you're going to lose a lot of your melee strength to pick up that x4 crit. Especially when you consider that you're losing glancing blows, double Power Attack, 1.5x Strength bonus and only getting a 20% offhand attack proc rate. When you add in the fact that most melee types are already going to be swinging a Greataxe or a Maul in that circumstance, I really don't think that a Heavy Pick or two is the way for most THF melee types to go.

I put together a Maiming Rocksplitter for my FvS and picked up a Seeker +10 Khopesh for his offhand and it certainly is nice damage during an autocrit, but it's not anything like the vast improvement over his MinII Greatsword that I expected to see. I'm sure that it would be more significant for a "real" melee, but a "real" melee would be swinging a Greataxe instead of a Greatsword in that case anyway.

EllisDee37
02-22-2011, 03:56 PM
lets see... assuming improved crit

Falchion 18-20
2-14 = 1 per str increase
15-20 = 2 per str

Greatsword 19-20
2-16= 1 per str increase
17-20= 2 per increase

so, thats 13 + 12 divided by 20 (25/20) vs. 15+8 divided by 20 (23/20)

means its got 2/ 20 over the Gsword, which is = .1 more per str bonus, which means that the Falchion is better at 20 bonus (str, enhancement, etc.) (because it looks cooler than a GS :])This is all based on the premise that they do the same base damage, but the greatsword does noticeably more base damage.

25/20 * f is better than 23/20 * g when f and g are equal, sure, but f is 5 and g is 7.

25/20 * 5 = 6.25 for the falchion
23/20 * 7 = 8.05 for the greatsword

At all low levels the greatsword will noticeably outperform the falchion, especially with anything that scales base damage. It's only when you apply very large static damage bonuses that the better crit range of the falchion catches up to the greatsword's superior base damage.

kernal42
02-22-2011, 04:04 PM
the falchion doesn't break even with a greatsword until +37 damage per hit. That's over 10d6 damage bonus every single roll, which I'm thinking is approaching the limit. And that's the break even point; anything less than that and the greatsword is mathematically better.

At the extreme end of maxing out DPS at all costs, it seems to me that the falchion will perform slightly better than the greatsword, but the difference would be mostly negligible.

My level 12 rogue has a +45 to damage. It becomes very easy to get large +damage numbers with 2-handed weapons with any decent melee, as PopeJual mentions.

However, your analysis does not convince me to stop using a quarterstaff! ^_^

Cheers,
Kernal

wonkey
02-22-2011, 04:12 PM
OP, I think you have it backwards. For most of the range (hit on 18 or less) the falchion compares better the harder it is to hit.

base stats are GS: 2d6 (19-20 x2), Falc: 2d4 (18-20 x2)

Let's call X your damage bonus above base that is multiplied by crits (anything not multiplied cancels out).

Assuming you hit at least on an 18, lets call Y the amount of hits you get out of 20 beyond 3.

using avg of base, and assuming you confirm every crit, damage for GS = (7 + X)(Y+5), for falch = (5+X)(Y+6)

This is a bit simplistic, but it shows the basics.

If you hit on a 10, Y = 8.
For break even, (7+X)(13) = (5+X)(14)
X=21
So, hitting on a 10, you need 21 or more crittable, non-base damage to make the falchion worth it.

It gets a bit better if you have keen or Improved critical.
Then (7+X)(15)=(5+X)(17)
X=10
Since most melees have the feat, and 10 is an easy number to reach, Falchion would be better in this case.
It'll be closer b/c you won't confirm half your crits, but still, it shows the point.

If you need 14 to-hit, its not even a competition. Falchion gets all crits, carrying it to almost GS using just base (7+X)(10) vs (5+X)(12), X is less than 1.

Worst case for falchion is hitting on a 2. Assuming you have improved crit,
(7+X)(23)=(5+X)(25)
X=18

If you can hit 18 crittable damage above base or more, go for the Falchion.

PopeJual
02-22-2011, 04:28 PM
This is all based on the premise that they do the same base damage, but the greatsword does noticeably more base damage.

25/20 * f is better than 23/20 * g when f and g are equal, sure, but f is 5 and g is 7.

25/20 * 5 = 6.25 for the falchion
23/20 * 7 = 8.05 for the greatsword

At all low levels the greatsword will noticeably outperform the falchion, especially with anything that scales base damage. It's only when you apply very large static damage bonuses that the better crit range of the falchion catches up to the greatsword's superior base damage.

The problem that you're running into is that you can't use 25 * 5 for Falchion and 23 * 5 for Greatsword. You need to use 25 * (5 + x) for Falchion and 23 * (7 + x) for Greatsword. DDO does allow (and actively encourages!) very large damage bonuses that are multiplied by critical hits.

Even at low levels, that X should be around +10 and if it's less than +30 at level 12+, then you're doing something seriously wrong.


25* (5 + 10) = 375
23 * (7 + 10) = 391

25 * (5 + 30) = 875
23 * (7 + 30) = 851


By the way, the Carnifex (ML 4 Greataxe end reward from Delera's Tomb) has a 17-20/x3 crit profile. That works out to
27 * (6.5 + 10) = 445.5 for the "+10" damage and
27 * (6.5 + 30) = 985.5 for the "+30" damage.

If you see one as your end reward in Delera's Tomb, TAKE IT.
Even if you don't yet have your Voice of the Master.


Edit: Here's an example of bonuses to damage that are just plain silly. If I put my Bloodstone and my RR: Warforged +6 Strength item on my level 12 Wizard, he can swing his Carnifex and get...
Str = 12 + 3 tome +6 item +2 ship buff +1 profane bonus (Might of the Abishai) = 24
+2 + 1d12 base damage from Carnifex
+6 damage (x3) on Critical hits from Seeker
+10d6 Electrical damage on a To Hit roll of 20
That's an average of 99.5 damage when he rolls a 20 to hit something.

...and my Wizard is NOT built for melee. No Power Attack, just 12 starting Strength, no Sneak Attack damage bonuses and all gear that he just borrowed from another character. Except for the Bloodstone and the +3 Strength tome, it's all easy to get.

EllisDee37
02-22-2011, 04:35 PM
OP, I think you have it backwards. For most of the range (hit on 18 or less) the falchion compares better the harder it is to hit.Oh yeah, absolutely, if it's hard to connect, the better crit range wins in a landslide. I was led to believe that when DPS matters most, like the bosses on the highest levels, you hit on everything except a 1. (I'm guessing due to buffs from your party? That part wasn't made clear; it was a throw-away explanation of why Power Critical isn't worth a feat slot, at least to a feat-starved melee, because any melee worth its salt will hit on a 2 or better.) EDIT: Then again, if it's hard to make contact, much of that crit advantage goes out the window, doesn't it?

Quick semi-related questions:

Two-handed is better than two-weapon for dealing with high-level mobs, right? It seems pretty obvious that it would have to be, but much of the late-game remains an enigma to me so I thought I'd ask.

At level 6 I've already settled on the greatsword and maul for slashing and bludgeoning, though being just plain +4 weapons they were both dirt cheap at the auctionhouse so I can easily switch the greatsword out for a falchion (or whatever) at higher levels. Is there any particular need for piercing? (Apart from the x4 multiplier?)

chodelord
02-22-2011, 04:55 PM
as far as I know the only mobs in the game with dr piercing are those crazy vale spiders and raksasha(piercing and good)

so when you hit vale have a piercer on you even you normally use 2 hander, the dr on the spiders is pretty sick

a heavy pick of pure good will cover both them and raksasha, or if you are neutral then flametouched heavy pick

Kinerd
02-22-2011, 05:55 PM
Two-handed is better than two-weapon for dealing with high-level mobs, right? It seems pretty obvious that it would have to be, but much of the late-game remains an enigma to me so I thought I'd ask.Characters in DDO end up having extremely high Strength bonuses and extremely high amounts of magic on their weapons. The first slightly favors THF (roughly 1.5 to 1.4) and the second strongly favors TWF (roughly 1.8 to 1.16), so TWF ends up being the way to go when you are comparing like to like. There is a particular THF weapon, the epic Sword of Shadows, that gets around this by ignoring magic sources of damage and simply having the best base damage and crit profile in the game, and even then it can be a pretty close run thing.

PopeJual
02-22-2011, 07:48 PM
Characters in DDO end up having extremely high Strength bonuses and extremely high amounts of magic on their weapons. The first slightly favors THF (roughly 1.5 to 1.4) and the second strongly favors TWF (roughly 1.8 to 1.16), so TWF ends up being the way to go when you are comparing like to like. There is a particular THF weapon, the epic Sword of Shadows, that gets around this by ignoring magic sources of damage and simply having the best base damage and crit profile in the game, and even then it can be a pretty close run thing.


Additionally, THF is better at dealing with some things and TWF are better at some other things. Effects that happen on every hit (Paralyzing, Disruption, Destruction, Improved Destruction, Cursespewing, stat damage like Wounding/Weakening/Bone Breaking, etc) and effects that have a chance to happen on every hit (Vorpal, Earthgrab, Smiting, Banishment, etc) are better when you have more raw hits. That favors TWF.


Effects that take away from each hit's damage like Damage Resistance are going to take more away from a TWF person than it will take away from a THF person just because the TWF gets its damage through more hits.

THF tends to have a longer reach on the weapons, so you can stand a little further away and still hit your opponent. This doesn't matter when everyone is standing still, but it can make a big difference if you're chasing something (or fleeing something) while you swing.

FuzzyDuck81
02-23-2011, 02:01 AM
I generally go with whatever i find that has the most useful effects in a given situation :) its typically greatsword, but mainly because i have a few of those banked from my 2 LOB FvS's, though i've found a bodyfeeder falchion of whatever can give some very nice survivability (great on my pally, using the temp HP to power many, many uses of divine sacrifice) & for bringing mobs to autocrit a weakening of enfeebling falchion rocks.