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somenewnoob
02-21-2011, 02:32 PM
I haven't unlocked any races yet, so I'm just choosing from the basic ones.

Was thinking maybe halfling, +2 dex for a little better AC and good rogue bonuses?

Thoughts?

sacredguyver
02-21-2011, 02:40 PM
If you haven't started your wiz/rogue yet, use the character you have now to run up 400 favor and unlock Drow, which seems to be the most commonly used race for Wiz/Rogues. Whether you can do that or not, I don't know, but the INT bonus is more important than DEX bonus (Disable Device and Search are INT-based skills, Open Locks is DEX-based).

Only other 2 races I've seen for Wiz/Rogues are Warforged (P2P-only) and Human (Bonus feat and skill points).

yawumpus
02-21-2011, 03:28 PM
Human.

The best for 20 wizard is easily warforged (warforged at 18/2 is also excellent, but humans might be even better). Since you don't have warforged, I would go human. Dump dexterity, then take insightful reflexes to make the reflex save issue moot. Normally you want human for rogue splashes (human versatility boost goes a long way, but your intelligence should make it a moot point), but you might want to look into elf (note CON is critical, and DEX useless to you. You are only in it for DC bonuses and spell penetration. My guess is that they didn't make elf worth it).

Judging by your comment, I suspect you are new to DDO. Dex is pretty pointless for [advanced] rogues. They need a certain dexterity to allow them to use two weapons, the rest is irrelevant [you have no interest in two weapon fighting]. You want intelligence to find/remove traps. I am not sure if you need intelligence to open locks as well, but the "knock" spell will give you enough of an advantage to make it a moot point. The important thing about rogue skills is to keep them maximized (you have plenty of skill points due to intelligence) and wear the appropriate googles (the rescue the sacrifice victims should give you an early set, and keep buying them on the auction house as you level up). You can likely afford to buy less than clean (i.e. googles of disabling +7/weather detection +3), but try to keep them current. Expect to be wearing goggles of the eagle to spot the trap, switch to goggles of minute seeing to find the trap, then goggles of disabling to remove the trap. Finally put your spotting (of the eagle) goggles back on (possibly goggles of insight from Korthos if you are still swinging your axe [see below].

To make this build, take an 18 in intelligence, 14 (at least) into constitution, and put the rest (if any) into strength. You should wind up with something like 18/16/10 int/con/str (or possibly 18/14/14 if you want to make it easy on yourself to start). You will need to take your first level of rogue first (you *always* take the level with the most skill points first), and grab the skills you need. Take toughness and insightful reflexes (the catch is you can't take spell based feats, these are the two non-magic ones you need). Once you get your second level, look up the wizards handbook for spell selection. You want to pick as many spells that can't be bought in shops. Take extend as your wizard's feat.

Playing a low level wizard. This is where it gets weird (for old D&D hands and swords & sorcery in general). Expect to play like a crazed axe-swinging barbarian. You can memorize a spell called "master's touch" that will give you proficiency in any non-exotic weapon you are carrying. Pick up a great-axe, cast master's touch, mage armor, shield, and go to town (mage armor and shield can be had in cheap wands, pick those up and memorize some more useful spells). You will also want to buy some bull's strength wands (possibly off the auction house, they can be steep for a 2nd level toon, cheap for everybody else). Expect to use the human versatility more to boost your "to hit" bonus at first, then later to help with trap finding/removal.

Make sure you pick up the archivist's necklace after miseries peak (you can't get more than one end reward from that quest). You might be temped to get the anger's set, but your axe won't be your primary weapon much longer. Look for greataxes of lesser reptile bane, fire/ice/shock, or better yet [and won't be available till at least 4th level] holy. Also start looking for items of power: hit your buffs with the power weapon, switch to a superior freeze 1 clicky, then switch to your axe for master's touch.

My best guess for taking your second level of rogue would be somewhere around 9th (after you have 7 levels of wizard and are firewalling everything in sight). Firewall should mean you are overpowered for level, and things are looking dangerous for you as well: better pick of evasion now.

This is a pretty detailed list from someone who hasn't gotten a wiz/rogue past 4/1, but I've leveled a wizard since then and found a few of my mistakes. It should at least get you pointed at endgame without any gaping holes (just read up on regular wizard and plan accordingly). [Note: I have capped a rogue splashed ranger. The bits about the goggles/rogue skills are known to be correct.]

stille_nacht
02-21-2011, 03:33 PM
yeah ,human is definitely best for wiz/ rogue if you only have free races.

rogue level 1, 2-8 wizard, rogue level 9

max out the umd points on both rogue levels, dont bother with them on non rogue levels before rogue level 9.

you dont need dex, int is your trap abilities and your reflex save, use the knock spell for locks. (see insightful reflexes feat, you have to take it for an evasion wiz)

Phidius
02-21-2011, 03:34 PM
I also recommend human.

Extra feat, more skills, healing amp, more toughness enhancements, +1 Con, +1 Int, and they look better than those stinking Drow :D

Although the Drow SR is mighty tempting, I'd still go w/ human.

yawumpus
02-21-2011, 03:41 PM
It might be popular, but I don't see the point. What you are mainly getting out of it is a point higher intelligence, but [two points to start with, but humans can get one from enhancements] you lose your mighty human versatility. You also lose a feat, but wizards have plenty of them (you will still want both toughness and insightful reflexes).

Best way to get to drow is by building a pure wizard much as mentioned, but loading with higher strength. Possibly 18/14/14 int/con/str to wind up with a still-usable wizard. I've gone all the way to 14/14/18 int/con/str on a throw-away zerg-to-drow build [he absolutely rocked from 1st to 8th level. If I kept playing him I expect to run into a solid wall around level 12].

The extra dexterity, once you take insightful reflexes, is pointless. The extra intelligence is one point (a bit of a help, and there are enough ways to even out values to make it count) matters. The two less constitution points are worse. Furthermore, you can pick up another point of constitution [and 10 more hit points thorugh racial toughness level] through enhancements. Go human.

Teech
02-21-2011, 04:18 PM
Does int affect spell points?
Not sure on that.

I went Drow because the extra int basically means +1 DC for all your spell schools, which is pretty nice and which I personally rate higher than the extra feat and slightly extra HP you get as a human...

I'm pretty newb though so don't take my word for it. Just throwing it up for discussion.

doubledge
02-21-2011, 04:20 PM
you should go pale master if you plan on melee, due to self healing and extra damage on hits.

EKKM
02-21-2011, 04:26 PM
Does int affect spell points?
Not sure on that.

I went Drow because the extra int basically means +1 DC for all your spell schools, which is pretty nice and which I personally rate higher than the extra feat and slightly extra HP you get as a human...

I'm pretty newb though so don't take my word for it. Just throwing it up for discussion.

Yes INT does ad to spell points but it isnt very much.

To the OP, human is a good choice from the free races. Free skill point, feat and human versatility.

Halfling has its pluses as well, better innate trap skils and enhancements. You may be able to save the insightful reflexes feat if you get your dex high enough.

licho
02-21-2011, 04:32 PM
Humans:
Extra feat, some con/int boost, HV if you feel so, also Skill point, which is not a problem for wiz, but hey its useful.

Halfings just do not have much interesting things to offer, since most of the halfing stuff are better saves, throwing weapons, and sneak attack. None of this is important for wiz/rog.

Drow... is there single enchantment in drow which you want to take (apart RT)?

Also do not think of you wiz/rog as a rogue, more like wizzard with evasion and trapsolving.

AFAIK: each ability point increase SP pool by 5, whats more interesting if you MC you get 5SP for each casting class.

doubledge
02-21-2011, 04:36 PM
Humans:
Extra feat, some con/int boost, HV if you feel so, also Skill point, which is not a problem for wiz, but hey its useful.

Halfings just do not have much interesting things to offer, since most of the halfing stuff are better saves, throwing weapons, and sneak attack. None of this is important for wiz/rog.

Drow... is there single enchantment in drow which you want to take (apart RT)?

no enhancements whatsoever, more space for spell proficencies.

yawumpus
02-21-2011, 08:58 PM
This is why I mentioned elves

There really isn't any reason to take halfling. A wizard will start with int of 18 (20 if drow), and will pump it as high as it can go. Since that is what you need to find and remove traps, you already can remove any trap in the game (with cheap, but level appropriate gear). Spot may be a little trickier, but hopefully someone else can take point (wizzys are too squishy for point). Locks will pop open with a little skill, and a knock spell.

Rogues are for sticky pointy objects in the backs of nasty critters. They can also handle traps, but if they try to do it as well as a rogue/wizard, they are just going to gimp themselves.

It looks like elf may well be the future (well update 9, who knows what will happen with update 11). Spell penetration is critical (and FOUR count 'em FOUR pluses: they might not all make it to game), and possibly worth all those hit points (the one DC really isn't).

Hit points should not be sneered at. We are discussing a wizard, and you can only expect 72 hit points from 18 levels of wizard (12 from 2 levels of rogue). You get 20 points free, another 20 points from CON 12. Toughness + 2 enhancements gives 20+10+10 more.
72+18+20+20+20+10+10=170 (drow)
72+18+20+20+20+10+10+30+10=210 (human) [I gave 10hp for 1 point of CON, not sure if half the players will locate either a +1 exceptional CON item, +3 tome, +7 epic CON item, etc.]
Endgame goal: 300 hp (You want *everybody* to exceed that).
Human still needs: 90 hp
Drow still needs: 170

You can get GFL and +6 CON from the AH. That is 90 right there, minos (assuming you have access to necro4) is a reasonably quick grind (20 more), eventually you get draconic vitality (10 more).

Human: 330
Drow: 290

It is starting to look up for drow, but now the big question. What do you do for greensteel? I assume that both will start with an accessory with +10 hp. The human will upgrade it to +50 sp (and then +100 sp when he has the larges, and can think about an exception int (or maybe that odd CON? who knows) weapon. He won't be making another accessory until 20 shroud completions.

The drow has to choose between +50 and +15 hp, then +100 sp and +20 hp.

In the end, those hit points matter. Wizards just don't get enough of them, and need to scramble for every one. Read some of the "gripes about noobs in the shroud" [it is an eternal thread on DDO forums]. 300 hp is openly declared "minimum for all toons in the shroud". Guess what, drow won't make it. You won't get the draconic vitality until you have enough raids and endgame content under your belt. Hopefully, you can slip in at 290. Even at 300, you will be running the shroud over, and over, and over, and over (one of my toons is here), just to get those 45 hp. Meanwhile, the human is running away with 150sp (at the same level of effort, and now just 5hp behind you).

I can't tell you if the hit points are worth +4 spell penetration or not (or even if elves will wind up with it), I can tell you the +1 intelligence is not worth it.

[

NaturalHazard
02-21-2011, 09:00 PM
Human?

drow isnt free to play but easy to unlock, but I think human is still better.

Doganpc
02-21-2011, 09:11 PM
I hate it when people bring math into my leisure time. Maybe if ya'll didn't play Drunken shroud so much you wouldn't absolutely need 300hp from a wizard either. Then again it must be nice to have the HP to play drunken shroud.

Dogan
It doesn't matter, just a waste of time.

Feithlin
02-21-2011, 10:08 PM
Mine is a human. WF would be better, but I don't have. However, I never had any issue with him (I have not been into Amrath though yet). I have been Archmage since they released it for added sp, but I plan to switch to PM soon.

yawumpus
02-21-2011, 11:12 PM
More notes:

Someone above suggested that the humans "extra skill point is no big deal".

Wrong (mostly, at least for any rogue splash).

You want the following skills absolutely maxed:

Concentration (this skill determines if you can cast spells at all while in combat)
UMD (use magical device. A bit of overkill for a wizard, but it remains the most powerful skill in DDO. Expect to use for healing wands/scrolls and other clerical tricks. Occasionally comes in handy to use other race/class specific
magic items).

Skill that really should be maxed, especially since you have points for it:
disable device (the one for removing traps)

Skill that should be maxed, but you might have to use your points elsewhere:
Locate traps

Skills that you would like to max, but will have trouble finding the skill points:
Spot
Balance
Open lock
Jump

Run though Ron's character generator a few times and try to find some way to balance these. You should be able to start all these (and a few more, look into the stealth ones) at 4 due to your rogue level. After that, you will be stuck with only enough points for the first 4. I would probably fill UMD no more than half the times leveling up to level 9, and scattering the skills around the critical ones below (ask someone who has leveled one of these further). Once you hit level 9 (the second rogue level), fill UMD as far as it will go, then start filling the rest (but make sure all the first 4 are filled first, and don't bother with jump: just use the spell). Since UMD isn't important at lower levels, this should help a bit.

locus
02-21-2011, 11:30 PM
Does int affect spell points?
Not sure on that.

I went Drow because the extra int basically means +1 DC for all your spell schools, which is pretty nice and which I personally rate higher than the extra feat and slightly extra HP you get as a human...

I'm pretty newb though so don't take my word for it. Just throwing it up for discussion.
This is a fine reason to go drow (and imo the best one) but moreso for pure wizards/pale masters. That +1 DC is pretty important especially as a new (and therefore undergeared) player. I agree with everything else (but the drow point) that yawumpus said - max int, con, rest into str. Why do so many players put high dex in wizards? It's baffling.

Human's your best non WF choice, as the extra feat is invaluable and will make your feat lineup less annoying (you won't have to cut anything crucial).




Concentration (this skill determines if you can cast spells at all while in combat)
UMD (use magical device. A bit of overkill for a wizard, but it remains the most powerful skill in DDO. Expect to use for healing wands/scrolls and other clerical tricks. Occasionally comes in handy to use other race/class specific
magic items).

Skill that really should be maxed, especially since you have points for it:
disable device (the one for removing traps)

Skill that should be maxed, but you might have to use your points elsewhere:
Locate traps

On a properly built wiz/rogue (that is, maxed int, and two rogue levels, not one) you can easily max UMD, concentration, disable device, and search. You will also have half ranks (or a bit over half ranks) leftover for open lock, which actually you can afford to not max, so you have all the bases covered. The extra skillpoints from human will be fairly handy for balance, which imo is next in importance (not spot or jump - you can nearly max jump on yourself at any time). Then again the extra skill point is balanced exactly by having a drow with 20 int, instead of a human with 18, so the skill point reason to go human is a wash. (The above's not using anything more than +1 tome, and even that's marginal, by the way, so it just goes up from there).

Irinis
02-22-2011, 01:09 AM
For FTP, I'd go Human for the extra feat (important on a rogue splash) and the extra skillpoints (again, important on a rogue splash) in addition to equal DC as Drow when geared well AND more hp.

But I'd also go Pale Master and not Archmage. The feats fit a little better, you have the self-healing to help make up for not being WF, and it's just a little tougher to gear out.

wax_on_wax_off
02-22-2011, 01:37 AM
The real trick to having a good wizard is to build in some self healing. This is what makes warforged so amazing however there are other ways to do it.
1. Human Archmage with maximum healing amp and enough UMD for cure wands and a bunch of cure pots.
2. Drow Palemaster (this gives self healing after level 12).

Either is compatible with a rogue splash and both get considerable advantages from the rogue splash (UMD and evasion).

Consider if you really need the rogue splash, I'd tend not to want to splash.

unbongwah
02-22-2011, 12:08 PM
Did anyone mention "human" yet? In the past, a halfling rogue 2 / wizard 18 w/DMs for self-heals was also a good combo, IMHO. However, that was before the wizard PrEs came out; now that they're here, it's tough to squeeze in the DMs as well as the metafeats you need for PM or AM plus all the other metas a good wizard ought to have.

Therigar
02-22-2011, 12:27 PM
Let me add my voice to the ones recommending human.

If I were F2P and only had the basic races to choose from I would select human for a wizard/rogue as a first time player.

Reasons have been explained fully.

Note, however, that I completely agree with the advice to unlock drow with 400 favor. Getting to 400 favor is not that difficult and the 2 point bonus to INT and DEX makes drow a better choice than human. It seems to me that a player without drow probably doesn't have 32 point builds available. Since drow are effectively 32 point builds (due to the +2 in 3 stats and -2 in only 1) they make a better option.

Working with the 28 point builds drow will give higher INT and doesn't need as much DEX due to DEX enhancements. Presuming that OP isn't planning to melee extensively it isn't necessary to have the TWF line and, as has been pointed out, DEX is important to OL -- which a wizard/rogue should be Knocking instead.

A drow with 18 INT, 14 CON and 14 STR still has 2 build points remaining. If planning to use feats for Insightful Reflexes then DEX is a dump stat. But the 2 build points could reasonably go there or into WIS (to boost Spot slightly).

By comparison, a human would have the same 3 stats but w/o the remaining 2 build points.

Irinis
02-22-2011, 12:30 PM
If you go Drow, you have access to Rogue Skill Boost for temporary +2 to skills. If you go Human, you can take Human Versatility instead. IMO, first life 18/2 from just f2p races should go Human. Maybe second or third life once you've got a ton of great gear, go Drow.

Therigar
02-22-2011, 12:38 PM
If you go Drow, you have access to Rogue Skill Boost for temporary +2 to skills. If you go Human, you can take Human Versatility instead. IMO, first life 18/2 from just f2p races should go Human. Maybe second or third life once you've got a ton of great gear, go Drow.

Anyone needing a skill boost to handle traps with a wizard/rogue is gimped to begin with. Most rogues start with 14 INT or less. At 18 starting INT a wizard/rogue is already +2 ahead. 5 stat increases plus 3 enhancements into INT put a wizard/rogue another +4 ahead.

Effectively a wizard/rogue already has more than the max'd skill boost before even trying to disable a trap.

Irinis is correct that you'd get the full boost capability with Human Versatility. But, you should never need it.

wolfy42
02-22-2011, 12:57 PM
Why all the halfling hate? They do get some nice advantages.

Human is probably best...followed by drow...but halfling is pretty nice especially starting off as well.

For one thing halflings can snag the healing marks which work with maximize/empower and potency items to give pretty huge heals early on. This is very nice till you get high enough UMD to scroll heal yourself later on, and if your careful with feat selection you can snag that along with Archmage evocation (your MM's also get mazimized/empowered for free for 1 sp a pop). It can make for a pretty nice combo early on. The higher base dex, +1 to all saves and ability to boost reflex saves with enhancements saves you from needing to take insightful reflexes (while still giving you just as high of a save)...which negates humans 1 bonus feat.

The extra skill point is missed but your int should be decently high anyway. Human versatility is nice......but again your skills will be high enough anyway.


Dex btw can be VERY nice...people mentioned running up to 400 favor for drow...but another option is to just run up to a high enough level with this character to do a chronosphere run and get Nat Gan's staff.

The staff to hit and damage bonus is based on dexterity, not strength.....which can allow you to have quite decent melee abilities early on before your spells start to kick in better (and give you trash mob killing potential for a very long time).

Honestly it's best to make one with a 32 point build (which deals with many of the advantages a drow would have had) but you can always sacrifice con a bit initially and LR later on to make the character a 32 pointer when you open it up.


For this build I'd recommend:


Halfling wiz 18/rogue 2

Str 10 (04)
Dex 16 (06)
Con 13 (05)
Int 17 (13)
Wis 08 (00)
Cha 08 (00)

When you get a 32 point remake just add 1 to int and con (14 con/18 int starting)


I'd suggest going with least dragon mark at lvl 1 (rogue level).
Maximize at level 2 (wizard)
toughness at level 3
Empower and lesser dragon mark at 6

By level 6 that would give you some pretty serious backup healing on your character. Since you'd be able to take out trash mobs with your staff you could save your sp for the big fights and pound enemies with max/empower going.

You could ditch empower though and go with spell focus necromancy to qualify for Pale master at level 7....but honestly your not going to gain that much from it till level 13 anyway...so i'd hold off.

By level 13 you can go either Arch Mage (evocation/enchantement etc) or Pale master for even more healing options, extra hp etc.

So yeah, human has some good advantages don't get me wrong, but halfling works pretty well too, especially early on. Once you hit 13 you could ditch your least/lesser marks and replace them with spell focus necromancy or the pre-reqs for your archmage school. Halfling is a decent choice...and probably much easier in many ways for a new character. Who can argue with having a bunch of free large heals on your wizard? Heck with Wizards low base hp your least marks are practically full heals as well.

Therigar
02-22-2011, 07:29 PM
Why all the halfling hate?

I don't think there's any hate. As an earlier poster noted, halfling with the healing marks was very popular at one time.

I think it really comes down to what feats you will try to fit into the build. As was pointed out in that earlier post, the wizard PrE's are so good that spending feats on dragon marks is probably not a good choice.

Last point I would make is that soloing has new meaning now with hirelings. In the past I might have found a way to fit in the dragon marks on a halfling for the self healing. But, since the introduction of hirelings, this is no longer necessary and, in fact, is actually counter-productive considering how feat intensive the PrE's are.

QuantumFX
02-22-2011, 07:58 PM
Human. 14 STR/8 DEX/14 CON/18 INT/8 WIS/8 CHA. Put all your levelups into INT. Take your rogue levels at character level 1 and level 9. Pale Master or Archmage (Depending on your UMD.) Max your Concentration and UMD scores. Spread your other skill points across Disable/Search/Spot/Hide*/Move Silently*/Open Lock. (Your INT will be so rediculously high that, with gear and self buffs, you shouldn’t need a heavy skill point investment.) Feats: Insightful Reflexes, Toughness at level 1. Your other feats will be determined by your PrE choice.

At low levels:

- Master’s Touch + Bulls Str + Rage + Rogue Haste Boost + Human Damage Boost + meanest Two hander you can find = your gish mode.

- Around level 4 you will start feeling like a proper wizard. (See All levels advice)

Mid levels:

- Keep focusing on your damage boosting and toughness enhancements.

- Use haste sparingly. (Big fights)

- Learn pacing.

- Use Blur

Mid-high levels:

- Learn to use Ice Storm and Wall of Fire.

- Grab a shield for shield blocking when you use Wall of Fire in a group.

- If you’re a Pale Master learn how your forms work.

- Use Displacement sparingly

All levels:
Invest in Superior <damage type> Clickies and the best <damage type> Lore item you can find. (Superior specific element clickies are actually +75% damage despite what the in-game description says!) These plus your investment into the Wizard damage lines will make you a powerhouse.

* If you like being the sneaky bastard type. (No, invisibility will not replace these skills. Complement? Yes. Replace? No.)

Failedlegend
02-22-2011, 09:15 PM
Does int affect spell points?
Not sure on that.

I went Drow because the extra int basically means +1 DC for all your spell schools, which is pretty nice and which I personally rate higher than the extra feat and slightly extra HP you get as a human...

I'm pretty newb though so don't take my word for it. Just throwing it up for discussion.

In the end human and drow end up with the same dc..see:

human/helf: 18base+5lvl ups+7item+3ench+3exceptional+1human adap+1 litany+2 sorc capstone+4tome = 44 (+17Mod)

drow: 20base+5lvl ups+7item+3ench+3exceptional+1 litany+2 sorc capstone+4tome = 45 (+17mod)

So if your going drow ONLY for the extra int don't you much better off with Human...I won't get into H-Elf or WF since you asked for f2p only.

Also its not slightly higher HP on humans humans also get more hp enhancements than drow as well.

wax_on_wax_off
02-22-2011, 09:40 PM
In the end human and drow end up with the same dc..see:

human/helf: 18base+5lvl ups+7item+3ench+3exceptional+1human adap+1 litany+2 sorc capstone+4tome = 44 (+17Mod)

drow: 20base+5lvl ups+7item+3ench+3exceptional+1 litany+2 sorc capstone+4tome = 45 (+17mod)

So if your going drow ONLY for the extra int don't you much better off with Human...I won't get into H-Elf or WF since you asked for f2p only.

Also its not slightly higher HP on humans humans also get more hp enhancements than drow as well.

In 50% of gear setups the drow will have +1 DC (for instance, if you only have a +3 int tome which is very likely for a considerable amount of time).

Additionally, with 28 points on each, a human will have 20 HP more than the drow (considering maximum investment into con). After that, a human won't spend 4 AP for greater adaptability: con and another 3 for toughness III, there are much better enhancements. The outcome is 20 HP difference.

Still, the difference will come down to Prestige Enhancement choice. Pale Master perfectly makes up for the inherent weaknesses of drow (low HP) while human benefits less from pale master (no use for healing amp). Conversely, human and archmage balances well with the ability to use healing amp to boost usefulness of cure potions, wands and scrolls (human skill boost helps here too for UMD on heal scrolls).

In the end though, 32 point builds adds a lot to a wizard. You can drop toughness and push constitution up high as can be (on a warforged for instance). Freeing up a feat adds a lot.