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View Full Version : Appeal to stay in sneak when attacking: optional setting?



BrightAsh
02-19-2011, 05:09 AM
I dont realy remember wich update it has changed, but not too many updates ago it was possible as a rogue to sneak and attack and stay sneaked (hidden) until a creature attacked you or some other creature(s) spotted you. Then this changed to sneaking + attack = not in hidden anymore.

In my opinion this game style is based to much on endgame, where it is very usefull to just sneak attack once and then get out of sneak and have more attacks. Since aggro is propably on one of the tanks or the mobs are CC'd, you'll sneak attack anyway (e.g. very usefull in raidgroups and epics). However, i TR'd my rogue and this new system of sneaking is terrible when you try to enjoy the first 15 levels of the game as a rogue. When you try to kill a single creature that is a few yards away from a mob, i can kill it sneaked... but i will give away my cover to the rest of the mob because i automaticly go out of hiding when attacking. And a rogue isn't the best head-on fighter...

As mentioned this used to be different, wich made the game as a rogue on lower levels much more enjoyable. Right now i play with a friend of mine (monk) and feel rather useless. My BA is significantly lower, so i tend to hit less often. However when sneaking a rogue gets bonusses on To Hit, this benefit get´s rather useless in small party´s or solo because it only goes for 1 attack since you get out of hiding when you attack.

Long story short: The new system of sneak attack and hiding is very convenient for endgame. The old system is more fun for a lower level rogue in smaller party's. Isn't it possible to make it optional? So the player get's to choose if he or she stays in hiding when attacking (thus having less attacks, with more accuracy and damage), or just sneakattack once and automaticly get out of hiding (having more attacks but less to hit). That way playing a rogue is prone to different styles of playing. whereas now it is almost only usefull for 1 style of play at endgame.

I think it could really aprove the game as a rogue who is also interested in playing the lower levels of the game. Would it technicaly be possible to apply this option? for example having 2 "sneaking" options: 1 "endgame sneak" and 2 "try to stay hidden at all costs sneak"

ElfedLied4
02-19-2011, 05:22 AM
However when sneaking a rogue gets bonusses on To Hit, this benefit get´s rather useless in small party´s or solo because it only goes for 1 attack since you get out of hiding when you attack.

Long story short: The new system of sneak attack and hiding is very convenient for endgame. The old system is more fun for a lower level rogue in smaller party's. Isn't it possible to make it optional? So the player get's to choose if he or she stays in hiding when attacking (thus having less attacks, with more accuracy and damage), or just sneakattack once and automaticly get out of hiding (having more attacks but less to hit). That way playing a rogue is prone to different styles of playing. whereas now it is almost only usefull for 1 style of play at endgame.

I'm not aware of any bonus for attacking from stealth. Backstabbing items and enhancements work when you're getting Sneak Attacks, which have only the requirement of not having aggro. Sneaking =/= Sneak Attack

/edit: the wiki can explain it quite well http://ddowiki.com/page/Sneak_attack

shadowhop
02-19-2011, 07:35 AM
/signed and +1 for getting an old playstyle back that was not the most powerfull but a very fun way to play.

The Dev's did make a certain D&D playstyle more fun to play(trapmaking; and yes i know they do not much damage but it is fun to watch monster getting in the trap and then being attack by the rogue itself makes a fun way to play), but they changed the way the rogues could attack a lone guard and not being spot by his mates 10 meters away.

I do agree to make it an option because the old version is more for the flowersniffing people and the new way of sneaking is more for the people who want to finish as fast as possible.


I'm not aware of any bonus for attacking from stealth. Backstabbing items and enhancements work when you're getting Sneak Attacks, which have only the requirement of not having aggro. Sneaking =/= Sneak Attack

/edit: the wiki can explain it quite well http://ddowiki.com/page/Sneak_attack

It is all about being able to stay hidden for the others so you can sneak attack them also and to have the feel of playing a rogue and not a warrior who just does his damage an other way.

BrightAsh
02-19-2011, 08:29 AM
I'm not aware of any bonus for attacking from stealth. Backstabbing items and enhancements work when you're getting Sneak Attacks, which have only the requirement of not having aggro. Sneaking =/= Sneak Attack

/edit: the wiki can explain it quite well http://ddowiki.com/page/Sneak_attack

You are quite right about that, but as Shadowhop states correctly, i like flowesniffing in stead of hurrying to lvl 20. That way, i only get one attack that counts as a sneak attack after wich all these bonusses will drop, because all eyes are on me

TheDearLeader
02-19-2011, 08:32 AM
You are quite right about that, but as Shadowhop states correctly, i like flowesniffing in stead of hurrying to lvl 20. That way, i only get one attack that counts as a sneak attack after wich all these bonusses will drop, because all eyes are on me

Have someone bigger and meaner than you draw their attention?

Not that I care if they make this some toggle-able UI setting. After all, the NPCs get to go back into sneak mode while danced/held/etc.

varusso
02-19-2011, 08:46 AM
Solution: add a rogue feat that they automatically acquire, which allows the rogue to remain stealthed after an attack in increasing percentage increments (similar to how they currently receive increased sneak attack damage feats as they level. Barring that, an enhancement line that increases the likelihood of remaining stealthed by a percentage, as you invest more points in it. Cap it around 90% or so, so that it is not guaranteed, but still retains a high rate of success.

This allows for a simulation of the rogue's improving skill over time to be the sneaky bastid he is. Perhaps code it so the mob he is attacking can see him, so he cant just sneak attack a mob to death that cant figure out where he is to retaliate, but any OTHER nearby mobs must make normal spot checks to find him.

Brennie
02-19-2011, 06:35 PM
I dislike being the voice of dissension, but i feel I must disagree with the OP.

Being able to stay stealthed while attacking was a bug, or atleast a very poorly thought out mechanic. When you attack someone, you are exposing yourself. Its very difficult to remain unnoticed when you are hilt-deep in a hobgoblin's spleen. Sneak Attacking from stealth is all about the surprise attack... jumping from the shadows and landing an unexpected stab at a vital area. Normal sneak attacking is just taking advantage of the fact that your opponent is more concerned with the Halforcs and the giant greataxe than you, giving you opportunity to find a vital area to poke at.

I believe that in PnP there were feats or Prestiges that allowed you to either stay hidden or quickly re-hide in combat (Hide in Plain Sight, for example, which if it worked as it did in PnP I would fully support being added to the Assassin prestige line). However, outside of having to invest in feats or prestiges to gain sneak-while-in-combat, i find i cannot support this idea.

Antheal
02-19-2011, 07:07 PM
I dislike being the voice of dissension, but i feel I must disagree with the OP.

Being able to stay stealthed while attacking was a bug, or atleast a very poorly thought out mechanic. When you attack someone, you are exposing yourself. Its very difficult to remain unnoticed when you are hilt-deep in a hobgoblin's spleen. Sneak Attacking from stealth is all about the surprise attack... jumping from the shadows and landing an unexpected stab at a vital area. Normal sneak attacking is just taking advantage of the fact that your opponent is more concerned with the Halforcs and the giant greataxe than you, giving you opportunity to find a vital area to poke at.

I believe that in PnP there were feats or Prestiges that allowed you to either stay hidden or quickly re-hide in combat (Hide in Plain Sight, for example, which if it worked as it did in PnP I would fully support being added to the Assassin prestige line). However, outside of having to invest in feats or prestiges to gain sneak-while-in-combat, i find i cannot support this idea.

Just as it's silly to be able to "hide" in the middle of an empty room, yet anyone with a high enough skill can do it anyway.

Realism just doesn't apply in DDO.

Scraap
02-19-2011, 08:08 PM
I dislike being the voice of dissension, but i feel I must disagree with the OP.

Being able to stay stealthed while attacking was a bug, or atleast a very poorly thought out mechanic. When you attack someone, you are exposing yourself. Its very difficult to remain unnoticed when you are hilt-deep in a hobgoblin's spleen.

Well, yes and no. It seems the all or nothing fix was just as poorly thought out in terms of keeping incentives for skills around.

I for one would be all for having either:
a hide and move silently check (so full 5 attack chain gets you 10/20 chances to roll a 1 and pop out of concealment),
or
a hide + move silently check (so again with a full 5 attack chain, you're looking at a 25% chance to pop out).

Basically, the difference between difficult, and impossible. Difficult gives folks something to at least shoot for. Impossible just removes options.

BrightAsh
02-20-2011, 03:44 AM
Well, yes and no. It seems the all or nothing fix was just as poorly thought out in terms of keeping incentives for skills around.

I for one would be all for having either:
a hide and move silently check (so full 5 attack chain gets you 10/20 chances to roll a 1 and pop out of concealment),
or
a hide + move silently check (so again with a full 5 attack chain, you're looking at a 25% chance to pop out).

Basically, the difference between difficult, and impossible. Difficult gives folks something to at least shoot for. Impossible just removes options.

I realy like this idea. As Brennie states, it is not realistic (but what is in DDO?) to just scewer someone with a blade and stay hidden, but Scraap's idea actually puts some extra use to the skill, and adds some form of realism, excitement for the flowersniffers and (maybe with the feat suggested by Varusso) the option for those die hard end-gamers who dont want to stay in sneak.

shadowhop
02-21-2011, 04:26 AM
I really like the idea of having to make a dubble (listen and spot agains move silently and hide) check after an attack.

And if it would be to powerfull let you make less attacks (like it was) in sneak mode.

For the gamers who want to get out of sneak immediately you could make two sneak modes; sneak mode (one attack then out of sneak) and full sneak mode (only getting out of sneak mode when the opponents make a succesfull spot or listen check).

QuantumFX
02-21-2011, 04:42 AM
I’d rather have them change it to “You can enter sneak mode while a creature is bluffed and it acts like you actually disappeared in front of them. They will check out the area where you were but if they can’t detect you via their spot or listen scores they will not be able to follow you around. That allows you to sneak attack the target normally.”

You know, like the actual game system that DDO is supposedly based off of. It’s also not like they don’t already have most of the code necessary to do this. (Check out Mr. Cow's videos on sneaking through Sins of Attrition to see this at work.)

Linkage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm)

Creating a Diversion to Hide:
You can use the Bluff skill to help you hide. A successful Bluff check gives you the momentary diversion you need to attempt a Hide check while people are aware of you. This usage does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

Cause God forbid we implement some way for a rogue character to have fun in DDO.

shadowhop
02-21-2011, 04:56 AM
Cause God forbid we implement some way for a rogue character to have fun in DDO.

It would be good for a lot of people to have different ways to play the game.
Playing a rogue for me would be very fun to be able to go into hiding after a bluff, not to be spot when you attack and placing traps even if you would be faster if you just attack while not in hiding and without agro.

I think many that play this game also have played and like the different ways that D&D can be played. (i have also several characters that zerg throug everything which is fun, but also like to play a group slowly to have fun in an other way)