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GotSomeQuestions
02-18-2011, 01:19 PM
It would be really awesome if there was some way to drop a marker or waypoint somewhere in a dungeon, and have Dimension Door lead there, instead of always leading back to the entrance. Make it so that the caster has to physically place the waypoint, so that you can't jump ahead, and only allow one at a time (or even one per dungeon). Thoughts?

bryanmeerkat
02-18-2011, 01:25 PM
It would be really awesome if there was some way to drop a marker or waypoint somewhere in a dungeon, and have Dimension Door lead there, instead of always leading back to the entrance. Make it so that the caster has to physically place the waypoint, so that you can't jump ahead, and only allow one at a time (or even one per dungeon). Thoughts?

It sounds like a good idea , and can encourage some creativity but I worry if it has the ability to be over abused .

GotSomeQuestions
02-18-2011, 02:24 PM
Mostly I was annoyed at having to sneak around in Slavers of the Shrieking Mines so much every time I wanted to go back to the shrine.

I'm not sure how you'd abuse it, though. You can't make a shortcut for the rest of the party, because if you move ahead and drop a waypoint while they wait at entrance, you can't ddoor back to the entrance anymore, only to the waypoint. You could walk all the way back to them and cast ddoor from there, but if you can get back, then surely they can get to where you are.

There might be some quests where it gives a big advantage, though. Not sure what those would be.

edit: the biggest problem might be in quests like Path of Inspiration, where you can't get back to the "asleep" area after you wake up. Could just make it so that you can't drop waypoints there, I guess.

sacredguyver
02-18-2011, 02:26 PM
Sounds good. Best use for this I could think of is to place the marker at a shrine, particularly in a long quest with shrines few and far between.

Bunker
02-18-2011, 02:32 PM
I'm not sure how you'd abuse it, though.

For every 1 player that does not seen the exploit, there are 5 players in the process of exploiting.

Interesting suggestion......However not wise.

Lorz
02-18-2011, 02:35 PM
I tend to think that part of the challenge is in resource management....
And this is just an easy button for those who do not manage them well.

/not signed.

//and yes i can think of plenty of exploits for this.

Templarion
02-18-2011, 02:44 PM
I like.

/signed



I'm not sure how you'd abuse it, though.Oh, I know. But I'm not saying anything just in case they would implement this one day so I could cheat myself through all space and time. ;)

Lorien_the_First_One
02-18-2011, 02:47 PM
The suggestion is perfectly sound and the suggested behavior is of course less powerful than the spell is supposed to be:

From the SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dimensionDoor.htm

Dimension Door
Conjuration (Teleportation)
Level: Brd 4, Sor/Wiz 4, Travel 4
Components: V
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Target: You and touched objects or other touched willing creatures
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None and Will negates (object)
Spell Resistance: No and Yes (object)

You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desired—whether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn’t exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.

If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.

GotSomeQuestions
02-18-2011, 03:24 PM
How many of these "exploits" go away if we can't use Waypoints in raids? That should be easy to add as a restriction.

Impaqt
02-18-2011, 03:38 PM
How many of these "exploits" go away if we can't use Waypoints in raids? That should be easy to add as a restriction.

WHy would it be OK for a spell to become completely useless in a raid?

How would it work with Scrolls?


the single largest exploit I can think of would be that many quests can be "Stealth-ed" through by a Single character pretty easily. sneak to Chest, set waypoint, sneak back. Put up ddoor. now everyone gets a free chest.

WirelessJoe
02-18-2011, 03:50 PM
Mostly I was annoyed at having to sneak around in Slavers of the Shrieking Mines so much every time I wanted to go back to the shrine.

I'm not sure how you'd abuse it, though. You can't make a shortcut for the rest of the party, because if you move ahead and drop a waypoint while they wait at entrance, you can't ddoor back to the entrance anymore, only to the waypoint. You could walk all the way back to them and cast ddoor from there, but if you can get back, then surely they can get to where you are.

There might be some quests where it gives a big advantage, though. Not sure what those would be.

edit: the biggest problem might be in quests like Path of Inspiration, where you can't get back to the "asleep" area after you wake up. Could just make it so that you can't drop waypoints there, I guess.

Maybe a UMD Rogue sneaking through a good part of the quest, setting the waypoint, and sneaking back to ddoor the rest of the party there?

Edit: Oops, didn't see Impaqt's reply.

Lorien_the_First_One
02-18-2011, 03:53 PM
WHy would it be OK for a spell to become completely useless in a raid?

How would it work with Scrolls?


the single largest exploit I can think of would be that many quests can be "Stealth-ed" through by a Single character pretty easily. sneak to Chest, set waypoint, sneak back. Put up ddoor. now everyone gets a free chest.

I actually don't see a problem with that. That would be in keeping with the original use of the spell.

Impaqt
02-18-2011, 03:55 PM
I actually don't see a problem with that. That would be in keeping with the original use of the spell.
oh, I dont either.. but turbine? we're talking about the devs that put up a bunch of glowy red barriers n Monstarty... and theres nothing good in there....

pie2655
02-18-2011, 03:55 PM
/signed
good idea! especially in s/r/e areas where ddoor doesnt work right....

Lorz
02-18-2011, 03:58 PM
/signed
good idea! especially in s/r/e areas where ddoor doesnt work right....

Please explain how it does not work correctly?

I think you do not understand....take Orchard...you go into Vol say to do the quest or just to visit the shrine upon re-entry to the Orchard if you DD you go to Vol entrance....because....this is where you ENTERED the explorer area....i think what you want is that it take you to the previous point before Vol where you entered the Orchard...and that would not make sense....each instance can have multiple entry points.....and DD works like it should returning you to the one you entered the instance from.....

Doxmaster
02-18-2011, 04:09 PM
the single largest exploit I can think of would be that many quests can be "Stealth-ed" through by a Single character pretty easily. sneak to Chest, set waypoint, sneak back. Put up ddoor. now everyone gets a free chest.

That would actually be amazingly good. It would inspire teamwork, soloing skills, stealth technique and many things lost to the game now...and it would be a niche thing. Think about it...say it takes 5 minutes to fight to the chest. Thats maybe 7 minutes to stealth there, and another 7 minutes to stealth back. Even if you can get to the chest, only using stealth, in 5 minutes, you have to make a round trip so it will at least take 10 minutes to do.

So, we either bring stealth back into the game, or get people to waste time doing much more work for less gain. Win-Win, in my book.

Impaqt
02-18-2011, 04:14 PM
That would actually be amazingly good. It would inspire teamwork, soloing skills, stealth technique and many things lost to the game now...and it would be a niche thing. Think about it...say it takes 5 minutes to fight to the chest. Thats maybe 7 minutes to stealth there, and another 7 minutes to stealth back. Even if you can get to the chest, only using stealth, in 5 minutes, you have to make a round trip so it will at least take 10 minutes to do.

So, we either bring stealth back into the game, or get people to waste time doing much more work for less gain. Win-Win, in my book.

Or maybe it takes a total of 1 minutes round trip stealthed and 10-15 minutes if you fight everything...(many epics come to mind.....)

floating
02-18-2011, 04:15 PM
Gosh an easier method to get all the sins bosses without running through the quest repeatedly? Ingenious.

donfilibuster
02-18-2011, 05:12 PM
As revised as such idea would need to be, the teleportation magic can use a revamp as is important part of d&d.

Technical problems and quest design aside, there's in-character ways to deal with etherealness.
The most important is monster placement. The villain surrounds himself with minions so he is never caught off guard.

Lets not just point out how you'd bypass every quest, it's clear they weren't designed with this in mind.

Brennie
02-18-2011, 05:47 PM
While i think this is a cool idea, i see several big problems with it.

First is the stealth exploit, already talked about.

Second is that there are several quests with several areas that get "Locked off" after you have gone through them. Undermine is a good example, where you have to go through several fights and several destroyable boulders just to come full-circle to a place you've already been. Infact, any quest that doubles back on itself, with additional barriers/enemies/encounters/trap etc would have this problem. Also, several quests that close off behind you might get "broken" if you DDored to a spot prior to the close-off (Although this may be a problem DDoor already faces, i don't know).

Until a suggestion (Other than mass dimensional anchoring on quests with these issues) comes along to account for the problem areas, I'm going to have to say "Interesting idea, i like it, but mechanically unsound."

Robi3.0
02-18-2011, 06:02 PM
I have thought about this to myself in the past. It has potential.

While technically as written in PnP Ddoor should already be able to do this, but I always thought Dimensional Anchor would be a great spell to implement that could be used to set way points and stop those pesky Devils for teleporting about.

GotSomeQuestions
02-18-2011, 06:22 PM
WHy would it be OK for a spell to become completely useless in a raid?

How would it work with Scrolls?
I was envisioning the Waypoint itself as a separate item that you drop in place, the way Ethereal Rest Shrines work. No Waypoint in the quest? Ddoor takes you back to the entrance. Got a Waypoint? Ddoors take you to the Waypoint.

So, in Raids, Dimension Door would work as normal, taking you back to the entrance. Only the Waypoint item itself would be unusable.

You could put the same "dimensional lock" in place for Epics (it wouldn't be the first spell to stop working in Epic), but really this "exploit" just illustrates how broken many Epics are. I obviously have no experience with epics, but if what people are saying is true, then a solo stealth character can complete the quest without fighting. A party of stealth characters can complete the quest without fighting. But it's not fair for a party with some stealth characters to complete the quest without fighting?

I'm not sure what the proper implementation would be for scrolls or multiple people who can cast DDoor. That's an interesting question. It would be pretty unfair for A to set a Waypoint and then have B get there by casting DDoor, so I guess a waypoint should only work for the person who sets it? But that allows multiple Waypoints in a single quest, if you have multiple people who can DDoor. If that's a problem, then maybe make it so that setting your Waypoint disrupts any Waypoints others have laid down, so that the group is also capped at one?

For Undermine in particular, you can just jump down, grab the explosive charges, and DDoor out right now. All my suggestion saves you is the long walk from the quest entrance back to where Kaboom collapsed the tunnel.

redoubt
02-18-2011, 06:27 PM
1. Teleport and G.Teleport need many more locations.

2. Let the DD thing happen, but you have to be able to cast it (i.e. not a scroll) in order to place the marker AND the marker only works for the person who cast it.

Now, I don't know what you would use it for other than going backwards (i.e. to a shrine), but I think that would reduce much of the exploit potential.

To me, the time spent stealthing there and back on a caster would be better spend just killing it all with the group...

donfilibuster
02-18-2011, 08:15 PM
Here's some tought. Ethereal travel already exists in ddo, you do that while walking dead in your ghostly form.
Can you bypass walls while being a ghost? No right? So if walls stop your ghost so can stop a dimension door.
Problem solved. No need to rework the boundaries, no need to redesign the quests, no exploiting shortcuts. Win.


PnP references as follows:
From the MotP, p 56. about Ethereal Solids, "You can create new types of ethereal solid if you like".
Also gives examples of heavy metals and plants blocking ethereal travel, such as walls made with mortar mixed with such material.
The DM can say the geology of X'endrik makes the stone be polluted in this way.


Back to the idea:
The spell will allow you to move through the corridors and open spaces, but not through walls and boundaries.
You won't be able to cross rooms, areas or holes, but still make good use of shorcuts in the same way of being invis or sneaky.
Isn't this a good middle point?

Rakian_Knight
02-18-2011, 10:00 PM
Or maybe it takes a total of 1 minutes round trip stealthed and 10-15 minutes if you fight everything...(many epics come to mind.....)

/rant
Epics already have this problem with stuff like, Jump and mass invis. for the house P epics so unless you want all them fixed as well, I really don't see a problem with it. You still can't get scrolls without fighting the mobs anyway so why sneak past them? Another thing you could do is simply have a high spot, listen npc with the group that they have to try taking out before they can sneak past everyone else. Since when was playing differently then the kill, kill, kill, zoom through dialog box to kill some more considered broken.

Also, if you haven't noticed, dimension door doesn't come in scrolls in any store or else my rogue and wizard would already be carrying them.

In my opinion more ways of playing are needed for all classes from knife throwing rogues, illusionist wizards, Bow master fighters, etc. Personally, it irritates me when people shout its broken when its looking at new strategies for an old quest.

/rant off

Anyway to the original post:

I love the idea and really wishes it would be implemented.