View Full Version : Human Rogue enhancements: Human Improved Recovery II x Toughness III

02-15-2011, 05:44 AM
So, I've got this level 5 Human Rogue (going DEX assassin build) and I'm planning my enhancements.

I have two paths to take, besides getting the standard enhancements for the assassin (damage, sneaking etc):

1) Take Human Greater Adaptability Constitution/Toughness III/Improved Search I (Search if a leftover point)
2) Take Human Improved Recovery II (4 points left)

These 4 points left wouldn't be used for anything very important, it would probably be Human Versatility III/Improved Search I or Rogue Haste Boost III/Improved Search I.

So I am considering the usefulness of paths 1 and 2.

My thoughts: path 1 seems to be better for soloing, path 2 for parties.

So, I want to ask what is your opinions, is Improved Recovery a great enhancement or not? At endgame does it matter? I'm thinking that maybe I would be "overhealed" with such skill, and that I would help the healer more by having a bigger life pool that the extra CON point and Thoughness III would grant me. That's why I need experienced people that went through endgame to share their opinions.


02-15-2011, 06:20 AM
There's definitely more here to consider rather than just those two paths. Enhancements are a nice feature due to their ease of swapping, and while having a solid plan to run off of is nice, it won't always work out. Specifically, once ToD rings, GS, DT, epics with +7 stat, +3 and 4 tomes, etc come into the picture, you may find stats becoming unbalanced and find the need to drop perhaps a point of Dex from enhancements to balance out.

I personally also have a Human 20 Rogue (the one in my sig) though he's Str based rather than Dex based.

My enhancements ended up being:

Damage Boost II
Rogue Extra Action Boost II
Rogue Haste Boost IV
Rogue Deadly Shadow
Human Adaptability Constitution
Human Greater Adaptability Strength
Human Improved Recovery I
Human Versatility IV
Rogue Subtle Backstabbing II
Racial Toughness III
Rogue Assassin III
Rogue Sneak Attack Accuracy IV
Rogue Sneak Attack Training IV
Improved Hide II
Improved Move Silently II

This has yielded the best results for myself, though I find myself considering dropping Toughness III for Subtle Backstabbing III.

A few things to consider with the above, is that due to being Dex based and (I assumed) taking Rogue Dex III, you're using 12 more points compared to myself. If I were to find myself in such a situation, I'd prolly drop Rogue Extra Action Boost I and II, Toughness III, and my Greater Adaptability stat (or take that as Dex and drop the tier III of the Rogue Dex) to fit in the points needed. Not the most familiar with Dex based builds to be honest.

As far as the two paths you laid out, IMO, you have their rolls reversed. Typically, I find Healing Amp to be not so useful during groups due to healers Heal and Mass Heal spells over healing so much. While solo or low manning things though, every extra bit on a Silver Flame pot or Heal scroll is quite nice. As you said, the extra 30 HP (assuming the +1 Con gives you a bracket) will be the best route for groups. However, before settling on a route, I'd give consideration to where else your points are currently planned to be spent. Maxing Subtle Backstabbing for instance is nice prior to getting Tharne's/Epic Venom/Assassin's ToD set bonus, but once those are covered, dropping the tier IV is a nice AP saver.

As mentioned earlier concerning the stats gains that will come with endgame too, its important to be flexible in your setup so that you're able to balance out your stats, rather than find yourself at an odd Con, Str, or Dex. Enhancements are perfect for this, and tomes to a lesser degree as you'll typically want +2 or better.

Since you're planning your enhancements, may I ask if you've a gear plan in mind that you're aiming for, or even a rough idea of what to keep an eye out for? That'd definitely give some insight on the direction to go.

Edit: Forgot to mention, I see you brought up getting Haste Boost III with the extra APs. It'd be in your best interest if aiming for DPS to fit in Haste Boost IV if at all possible. Stacking it and Human Vers's +5 damage (if tier IV) is a very nice increase to DPS during that time period. As of note, the Rogue Extra Action Boost chain will increase the number of boost available from Human Vers too. During bosses and held trash in epics, its sickening how much additional damage these two combined will grant.

02-15-2011, 06:49 AM
At low levels like your current I would work on getting as many HP as possible, so that's option 1.

Improved Recovery is a great enhancement line however, and one of the points of picking human. Remember it does not only affect what others heal you, but also healing you do to yourself from pots, wands and scrolls etc. But maybe save it for a little later.

02-15-2011, 07:05 AM
I haven't thought about equipment since I'm new to the game and I have no idea about what to aim for. Your answer though, was the kind of comment I was expecting. I really liked this build, it fits the DEX rogue too if you change the CON/STR to DEX/CON enhancements.

I'm only concerned about not picking up Rogue Dexterity in a DEX build like mine, so I might have to drop the Haste/Action Boost thing. Since the STR build already does more damage, I'm concerned that leaving the DEX enhancements behind might hurt my DPS.

But since I am not familiar with endgame, there could be some facts that will make your build work for me, like some kind of DEX cap that I can reach with the perfect equipment/tomes.

So, can I drop Rogue Dexterity I-III enhancements?

02-15-2011, 08:20 AM
So, can I drop Rogue Dexterity I-III enhancements?

IMO, if Dex based, then no.

Perhaps Draccus might hit up this post, he's far more knowledgeable than I concerning Dex based rogues, but by my understanding, the reasons to do so (other than multi class builds) are:

1: More base to-hit
2: More Reflex saves (possibly enough to drop Improved Evasion)
3: More AC (not particularly useful unless built for it)
4: Higher Dex based skills (tumble, hide, move silently, pick lock)

By higher base to-hit, I mean that if Dex based, you'll have a higher starting Dex than Str as well as all level ups into Dex. This puts you on par with Str based rogues, as far as to hit. The bonuses will come with racial and class bonuses. +2 base if Halfing (though you're Human), +2 racial enhancement if Halfling (+1 for Human), and +3 from Rogue enhancements, giving a Halfling a possible 7 higher Dex over a Str based users Str, which would be +3/4 hit, depending on if you were able to even the total out.

IMO, this breaks down with how buffs are currently in the game. There's really no unique buffs that boost your Dex, and there are plenty that will boost your Str. Titan Strength effect from the Titan Grip Gloves or cookie is +6 Str, Rage is +2, Abishai three piece set is +1 and +3 if epiced, Madstone Boots offer a clickie for +2 Str, and have an on attacked proc of an additional stacking +2 Str. To a Dex based rogue, all of these bonuses will be used anyways for your damage, however, IMO their use falters since you're using your Dex for to-hit, and at least to me, you're left paying a feat and additional APs to get a similar effect, except for the other three reasons I listed.

If Dex based, you're also left with a slimmer list of weapons to make use of, specifically, any light weapon and rapiers, where as Str based users are able to make use of anything, whether they spend that extra feat to take Khopesh, are Dwarves and splash a lvl of a martial class for Dwarven Axes and other martial weapons, make use of Master's Touch scrolls to use any martial weapon they so choose, etc.

Don't really want to break this down into a Dex based VS Str based discussion, as that's been done time and again and an answer is never really met in the eyes of either party. Its comes down to what you'd like out of the character. What exactly are you aiming for for your character? Max DPS? A mixed bag build to cover a lot of angles? Soloing? While many roles can and are filled by a straight up max DPS Assassin build, there's not much harm in wanting to branch out and try something different. Its what the forums are for, so others can give their experience and let you know what to expect. :D

Edit: Touching on a few more things.

I'm only concerned about not picking up Rogue Dexterity in a DEX build like mine, so I might have to drop the Haste/Action Boost thing. Since the STR build already does more damage, I'm concerned that leaving the DEX enhancements behind might hurt my DPS.

As you've said, Str based will be doing more damage at a base line than a Dex build (though only by typically 3-5 damage per hit, depending on build). Leaving the Dex enhancements off won't exactly harm your DPS, only your to-hit. At later lvls, really, to-hit is the least of anyone's worries. Typically, you'll want to be at or around +45 to hit after all mods for raids. Rogues get a 3/4 split with BAB, so you're looking at 15 there. +5 weapon for 20 total. +4 from SA enhancements for 24. +5 from a +5 Backstabbing weapon or item for 29. From there, if Dex based you'll prolly looking at in the neighborhood of 34 Dex or so that's easily obtainable, translating to +7 which gets you to 36. Dex can easily go higher once exceptional stat gains, +7, +3/4 tomes, etc are taken into account, but the same could be said of Str. Regardless, with that 36 you can tack on the +4 from GH for 40. Bard songs, Destruction effects, +2/4 hit items, +6 enhancement weapons, etc will carry you the rest of the way easily. As Str based however, you've got all of those same things, though with a lower Str score, say, 30ish that's easily obtainable. So while you've a lower Str to catch up with the Dex based, you're left gaining to-hit from Rage, Madstone Rage, Titans, ect, catching you back up.

Kind of a tangent there, but typically, to-hit won't be your issue. But leaving off those enhancements will sort of invalidate the reasoning for going Dex based.

But since I am not familiar with endgame, there could be some facts that will make your build work for me, like some kind of DEX cap that I can reach with the perfect equipment/tomes.

Really no such thing as a cap, however max Dex (ignoring mutliclass builds) would be:

20 base (Halfling)
+5 lvl ups
+2 racial enhancement
+3 class enhancement
+7 item
+3 exceptional
+4 tome
+1 Litany of the Dead (Profane Bonus)

45 Total, though I'm probably missing something as I recall there being more, but nothing coming to mind...

Str would be...
20 base (H-Orc)
+5 lvl ups
+2 racial
+7 item
+3 exceptional
+4 tome
+3 3 piece Epic Abishai set (Profane bonus)

44 total. Now, that's only including gear. Adding in typical buffs (not all are 100% maintainable)...

+2 Rage
+2 Madstone Rage
+2 Madstone Clickie
+6 Titan's Strength

56 total now. Typically, Titan's isn't something you'll maintain 100% unless you have cookies of it to just click on quickly, as switching gear to use the effect can be quite a DPS loss, unless its inbetween fighting. Madstone clickie is for two minutes and only one click on each set of boots, though they're not unique. The proc effect can be continually triggered, though it may not always be up.

You'll also notice the profane bonuses above. Both can be invalidated by using these (http://ddowiki.com/page/Hezrou_Gingerbread_Cookie) which would provide a +4 profane bonus to Str, Dex, and Con, though they're a tad rare and only available from the Festivault winter event.

02-15-2011, 02:09 PM
I just want a classic rogue that can do his skills well, with the maximum DPS possible on the DEX build. I knew about the STR build and I dropped it in favor of being "classic".

Does anybody have a viable enhancement build for a DEX based? Even though I want to be a good skill user, I believe it's not wise to drop the DPS enhancement to take skill enhancements, that's why I like the build you posted.

02-15-2011, 04:12 PM
You should list out all your enhancements, as it's tough to know what you may have missed without seeing them all. But I can give you my thoughts on the basics.

The Assassin Prerequisites will take up a fair amount of your points, and those aren't up for debate. So what's left?

- Rogue Haste Boost is one of the best enhancement lines in the game. The DPS increase from that enhancement is ridiculous so you'll want to max it.
- Extra Action Boost is cheap and worth 2 APs for another haste boost.
- Subtle Backstabber can be a lifesaver. I have SBIII.
- Faster Sneaking is iffy. I have FSIII and love it but I do a lot of stealth soloing. If you don't see yourself soloing or using stealth a lot then there's no need for it.
- Healing Amp is fantastic and one of the best reasons to go human. Sure, you're going to be overhealed when some uber cleric hits you for an 1100 hp heal but that's not why you have healing amp. You have healing amp so your own heal scrolls do 132 healing instead of 110. You have healing amp so a cleric's aura heals you for 50 instead of 30...etc.
- The dex, strength, and con enhancements are always useful. Since you don't have a weapon line to use APs on (no halfling guile/cunning or drow melee or dwarven axe) these may be a good place for your APs. You can't have too much strength or dex or con.

As far as dex versus strength, either will work...to a point. A dex build that ignores strength completely is pretty gimpy. When people come to this board and criticize dex rogues, they are usually making the assumption that the dex rogue has 34 dex and 10 strength. Yes, that would relatively weak. Don't be that rogue! But what the dex rogue critics don't realize is that a good dex rogue has a strength in the high 20s-low 30s! I recently LR'd from dex to strength and gained a total of 7 points of strength. Earthshattering? Not even close. Better? Sure.

If you keep your strength as high as possible, a dex rogue is great.

02-17-2011, 02:34 AM
My build is this basic one: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=2782313&postcount=5

But the enhancements are not very well explained there, so I made this thread to learn about endgame rogues. I could not figure out a human build that could have high Haste/Human Recovery/Subtle Backstabbing while keeping the DEX bonuses or CON bonus/Toughness III.

It's really hard to figure out what would work better for an all around DEX build. In my last build scrap I decided to get only Haste 2 and Recovery I in favor of getting all the DEX bonuses and Toughness III, also Subtle Backstabbing II. I've got to figure out what would work out better for me, since I am not built to be "the DPS", but my STR aren't very low either.

Maybe I should focus on survivability and drop some DEX/DPS enhancements, at least while I am not a well geared and experienced level 20?

I've been trying to level up in groups since I'm starting to find most quests difficult to do them alone (haven't tried hirelings yet). I've been dying more often than I would like...