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simsiim
02-15-2011, 04:56 AM
tonight was a strange night, the image shows what most of my adventures were like.

I cannot see why I would be missing so much, so I took a screenshot of the combat log (from combat chat) with my character sheet and maybe someone could explain or see why I miss so much.

here is the image (http://img812.imageshack.us/f/toomanymisses.jpg/)

Other info -
Quest: Garrison’s Missing Pack
Difficulty: Elite
Mobs were CR5
there was no negative effects on me, Level 4 Dwarf Rogue , Weapons equipped +1 Dwarven Axe of lesser Reptilian Band & +1 Dwarven Axe, Starter Leather Armor

thank you if you can explain to me what I cannot see

AndyD47
02-15-2011, 05:03 AM
Sounds like you are using two large weapons you aren't proficient with on a 3/4 bab class.
That's a -4 penalty for the weapons,another penalty for having a large off hand weapon,for a small chance at an offhand hit with a +1 weapon.
You'd better better off with a rapier and a shield really,or a quarterstaff,or really any of a large number of one handed options instead.

Don't forget to use some self buffs too,its always kind of rough starting out.
Things like heroism potions,bull strength potions,rage potions, divine power clickies/scrolls, the korthos attack bonus goggles...theres a +2 to hit set bonus you can get off of korthos stuff too.

ReaperAlexEU
02-15-2011, 05:07 AM
check the feat tab on your character sheet, if you dont have Two Weapon Fighting, put one of the axes away. if you dont have Oversized Two Weapon Fighting put the left hand dwarven axe down and pick up a hand axe instead.

using two weapons needs specific training, and using a full sized weapon in each hand needs further training. also at very early levels the penalty for TWF even with training can be significant on elite vs some mobs, so its best to have a single weapon close to hand if you find your missing too much.

be wary of moving in combat as there as a penalty for attacking while moving. that penalty can be well worth taking if it means you dont get surrounded, but when there are only a few monsters you probably want to avoid that penalty.

elujin
02-15-2011, 05:12 AM
even with the feats low level twf misses plenty

also as a rog make sure you don't have aggro (rogs do it from behind :D )

wolfy42
02-15-2011, 05:16 AM
I think I may be able to help.


A +5 or +6 chance to hit is very low (I think you have like a +10 base...but when you move you get a 4 point penalty to hit). I'm guessing you are not using light weapons with weapon finess which means you have just +3 to hit from strength bonus.

Quests on elite boost the enemies AC a decent amount...requiring you to do the same to your AB if you want to hit regularly. Normal is MUCH easier then elite especially if solo or in a small party.

You may be wielding 2 weapons....don't.

Seriously don't wield two weapons till much later (at least till you get improved two weapon combat) it's not worth the penalty to hit you get until then.

Back at korthos island you really want to get either the pathfinders set or the angers wrath set. Both give +2 to hit on top of other bonuses. It's better then the nimble grasp set (only +1 to hit and +2 sneak attack damage) etc.

On korthos island there is a nice pair of insight googles that will give you +1 more to hit.

On korthos island you can get a pair of bracers that cast aid...giving +1 more to hit.

That is +4 to hit right there. Add in your base 3 attack bonus and your 3 bonus from strength and your base attack bonus is already 10.

Now get a +3 weapon of some kind (a staff works pretty nice for a rogue at your level..and at level 6 you can even go acrobat for a nice speed boost). That boosts your base attack bonus up to 13.

Check the AH or run house pharlan quests to get the nice bulls strength buff for 30 minutes. That will pump your damage up a bit more and give you +2 more to hit (15 base).

Try and join at least a mid 20 level guild. That should give you about +2 more to hit (17 base).

Consider taking a weapon focus (you can always switch it out later) for another +1. (18 base).

That should get you a high enough attack bonus to hit just fine in elite level quests early on. In fact even with power attack going you should still hit just fine (with power attack at your level you'd still have a 15 base attack bonus...and 6 extra damage per hit).

As a dwarf btw you can also take the dwarf axe enhancement so when using an axe you'll get another +1 to hit (19 base...or 16 with PA on). I think rogues can use hand axes although it's been awhile so I'm not sure on that (if not you would get a 4 point penalty to ab for using a weapon your not proficient with).

Big things to look out for that might be hurting your AB (besides not having the above bonuses):

Wielding 1 or more weapons (or wearing equipment) you are not proficient with. Don't wear platemail for instance and don't wield a great axe. Also don't use a tower shield (get a not proficient penalty AND -2 to attack on top of that from the tower shield.

Wielding 2 weapons especially if the offhand weapon is not light. This is bad early on because the chance to get an extra attack is 20% without TWF and 40% with it...but you drop your attack bonus significantly...so unless you have a HUGE AB you'll probably hit less often over all as a result.

Until you get ITWF (60% chance for offhand hit) it's generally better to use a 2 handed weapon or S&B then dual wield.

Good luck!

simsiim
02-15-2011, 05:22 AM
yes I do have TWF feat

there are no Negatives with the weapons Image of weapons (http://img130.imageshack.us/f/theaxes.jpg/)to show what thy are equipped, I took this SS too at the same time.

I was not moving unless turning is the same as running and swinging


even with the feats low level twf misses plenty

also as a rog make sure you don't have aggro (rogs do it from behind :D )
I didn't the 2 warriors and the one sentry were on my Hireling, you will notice when I finally did get a hit, it was an sneak attack.

I just never had that many misses before, mid way through it was getting me upset, because sometimes those misses was causing me to gain the aggro and I lose out on getting the SA

So it was just one of those bad days ? Maybe my Dwarf had one too many pints and still feeling the effects from that :D

MrWizard
02-15-2011, 05:38 AM
+10 at 4th level with a +1 weapon as a rogue...good job.

moving gives you minus 4.
Using just one axe instead of two would add +4 i think

look at your inventory and try the different weapons, one hand, two hand, moving, not moving, etc...and see how that attack bonus changes.

not sure how you got to +10 with two dwarven axes at 4th level..
3 BAB from rogue
1 from axe
3 from strenght
-2 from TWF
-2 for oversized offhand
----------------------
+3 total

Assuming no running, I would have to venture some buffs getting you up another 7.
However your combat log shows going from +11 down to +5 for 'to hit', big swing.

wish your buff bar and items were showing...

simsiim
02-15-2011, 05:47 AM
I think I may be able to help.

<removed to save space ;) >


Good luck!

Humph , I totally thought I had it covered, getting the dwarf axe enhancements, feats and such, but yet I would still be off, since they are not light weapons . . Bummers :(

So from the replies I am reading, if I insist on sticking with dwarven axes, then just never do elite at level.
I have no problems (issues) with using a 2h till I get ITWF, so if that's what I need to do, then that's what I'll do. This is just one of a couple side (ALT) character(s) to level up to take a break from my main, but I still want to get it right. I'll look for a decent Backstabbing 2h weapon.

Still, to be honest, I am still bewildered about the many misses, Still don't think I did any thing wrong to cause it to be that bad. :o

ReaperAlexEU
02-15-2011, 05:53 AM
turning on the spot wont trigger the movement penalty.

go to the harbour armour and weapons vendor, buy a cheap buckler (nothing bigger), pair the buckler with one of your axes and then try that quest again.

see if it makes the difference.

we can tell from your log that the kobbies AC was 21-25 (you missed on a 20 and hit on a 25). getting a +2 attack by not dual wielding will be a massive bonus and far better than the chance to miss even more with the off hand.

what i cant tell is why you had so many attacks at just +6, that does sound like your moving or suffering a non-proficiency penalty.

can you double check you have all 3 of the following feats:
Two weapon fighting
Oversized two weapon fighting
Exotic: dwarven axe

you will need all 3 of those to be fully trained in using two dwarven axes. note that a rogue (and a cleric) do not get training with the dwarven axe unlike a fighter or barbarain. this is because for dwarves the dwarven axe is a normal martial weapon, so every martial class has access to it. rogues and clerics are not martial classes and so they do not have training.

also ensure you are only wearing light armour, robes or an outfit.

Teech
02-15-2011, 05:59 AM
Looking at combat log, there are huge differences to your to-hit numbers, ranging from +5/6 to +10/11. Probably two main reasons.

1) Dwarven axe is not a light weapon and when wielded with offhand, causes a -4 penalty. Use a handaxe instead maybe.

2) When you're moving, you take another -4 penalty to your attack numbers.

Also note that when you have aggro (not sneak attacking), your to-hit as a rogue goes down by a lot. (Due to sneak attack enhancements and equipments).

Solution: Use a handaxe in offhand instead of dwarven axe. And stop to swing.
Alternative, go into elite quests with a shield. Doesn't matter that you're not proficient. You get better AC, and your to-hit will go up by about 3 or 4 I think...

Delt
02-15-2011, 06:01 AM
Still, to be honest, I am still bewildered about the many misses, Still don't think I did any thing wrong to cause it to be that bad. :o

I don't know why you are bewildered. You have a 3/4 bab class...at level 4...with martial weapons...+1's...oversized in both hands...with a 15 str...running elite.

You couldn't try harder to gimp your tohit (well, except maybe to not be proficient with the DAs...I assume you spent a feat. And moving around a lot).

THF is the way to go until level 8 or so. I find it works out a lot better that way.

simsiim
02-15-2011, 06:22 AM
wish your buff bar and items were showing...
only buff would had been from the FvS Hireling, which was Bless, I started with Vet status, so the set was Nimble hand, I do plan to run misery peak and get Anger set



turning on the spot wont trigger the movement penalty.

go to the harbour armour and weapons vendor, buy a cheap buckler (nothing bigger), pair the buckler with one of your axes and then try that quest again.

see if it makes the difference.
okay, I can give that a try, maybe tomorrow night, right now getting sleepy ;)


we can tell from your log that the kobbies AC was 21-25 (you missed on a 20 and hit on a 25). getting a +2 attack by not dual wielding will be a massive bonus and far better than the chance to miss even more with the off hand.

what i cant tell is why you had so many attacks at just +6, that does sound like your moving or suffering a non-proficiency penalty.
I am sure I took a few steps, so yeah I was probably not 100% stationary, but most of the time I just stand and turn facing the mob, I know I was not running in any circles, so it may had only been a step or 2


can you double check you have all 3 of the following feats:
Two weapon fighting
Oversized two weapon fighting
Exotic: dwarven axe

you will need all 3 of those to be fully trained in using two dwarven axes. note that a rogue (and a cleric) do not get training with the dwarven axe unlike a fighter or barbarain. this is because for dwarves the dwarven axe is a normal martial weapon, so every martial class has access to it. rogues and clerics are not martial classes and so they do not have training.

also ensure you are only wearing light armour, robes or an outfit.
yes I do have TWF and Dwarven Axe, but not Oversize
I have the vet rogue starter equipment, so the Armor is leather
I took this screen of the enhanecments [Image here] (http://img522.imageshack.us/f/redsenhancements.jpg/)
after garrisons I went into WW to find Arlos and Venn get the last EXP needed to ding lvl 5, so right now it's no longer the same. That image was taken same time I was in Garrison's, so I can recall what enhancements I had if Asked, Dwarven Tactics was just a filler at the time, I like triping at the early levels :D

ReaperAlexEU
02-15-2011, 06:27 AM
I am sure I took a few steps, so yeah I was probably not 100% stationary, but most of the time I just stand and turn facing the mob, I know I was not running in any circles, so it may had only been a step or 2


yes I do have TWF and Dwarven Axe, but not Oversize

great, then we have the answer for you!

shuffling a bit will trigger the -4 movement penalty, and its a real pain as those kobbies like to hop all over the place

you're also taking a hit from that second dwarven axe, so find a light weapon (hand axe ideally, http://ddowiki.com/page/Weapons_by_handedness for a full list of light weapons).

but still keep a 1 weapon only set to hand, as you might still want that extra +2 to hit at times. come end game the TWF penalty wont be significant, but right now it is.

Anarkius
02-15-2011, 06:33 AM
blah, blah, blah...

yes I do have TWF and Dwarven Axe, but not Oversize I have the vet rogue starter equipment, so the Armor is leather
I took this screen of the enhanecments [Image here] (http://img522.imageshack.us/f/redsenhancements.jpg/)
after garrisons I went into WW to find Arlos and Venn get the last EXP needed to ding lvl 5, so right now it's no longer the same. That image was taken same time I was in Garrison's, so I can recall what enhancements I had if Asked, Dwarven Tactics was just a filler at the time, I like triping at the early levels :D

That is the biggest issue right there - not having Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting. Try switching to a light off-hand weapon (like a hand axe mentioned by many others) and your hit ratio should come up dramatically. At least until you can take the Oversized feat. :D

wolfy42
02-15-2011, 06:49 AM
A bit more info on two weapon fighter.

It is crazy to fight with two weapons without this feat as the penalty is huge. With this feat you only suffer a -4/-4 penalty to hit with 2 normal weapons and only a -2/-2 if your offhand weapon is light.

OTWF will get rid of the penalty for using a full sized weapon in the offhand. Dwarves though can use a dwarven axe/hand axe just fine so it's not a big deal early on.


The question then becomes will 2 AB drop your chance to hit more then 40% (which is the bonus damage you get from offhand attacks with two weapon fighting only). Well it's a bit more complicated then that because you only get 1/2 strength bonus to your offhand etc....but thats close.

If you are only hitting 50% of the time already against your enemies.....then that makes a 2 ab drop fairly significant...but still less then 40%. (it's about 20% total probably......2 ab means 10% more misses......droping your hit rate to 40%....which is a net 20% less damage)

That being said you could use a two handed weapon instead and get 1.5x strength bonus for every hit...and double the power attack bonus. This is why it's generally better not to use two weapons early on.

For a dwarf lets take a dwarven axe/hand axe vs a great axe really quick.

At level 4 your Dwarven axe/hand axe would give:

1d10 dwarven axe damage (Avg 5 to be easy) every attack with +5 damage from strength and say +2 damage from enchanted weapon. You would get +3 damage from power attack as well and +1 from dwarven axe enhancement. That is 16 average damage per hit (not playing with crits here.

And

40% chance to get

1d6 hand axe damage + 2 from strength + 3 from power attack +2 weapon enchantment + 1 from dwarven axe enhancment. That is 11 damage total...so to make life easy say another 4 damage on average per attack.

Total damage on average then is 20........with a net penalty to hit of 2.

Meanwhile great axe has

1d12 base (Say 6) +2 weapon enhancement (although you could get a +3 greataxe for the cost of both +2 weapons), +7 from strength, +6 from power attack, +1 dwarven enhancement = 22 average damage (23 with a +3 weapon). So your damage average is higher...and you don't have a penalty to hit (2 bonus AB means you hit 10% more often..though it's not actually a 10% increase in average damage due to crit hits...you could still say it's another 2 damage on average advantage. That means your net damage per attack is 24-25 with a great axe vs the dwarven axe/hand axe twf combination (and thats without using a feat at all for the great axe....or factoring in glancing blows which you get even with no feats etc).

By the time you get ITWF you have higher bonuses on your weapons, elemental attacks and a higher AB that makes it not hurt so much and a 60% chance for an offhand attack...thats when it starts to pay off decently. In fact, i'd suggest that the only time it really pays to have TWF early on is for unarmed monk attacks (since the attacks are basically free with no penalty to AB and full strength bonus for both attacks it's a no brainer if your going that route.

So basically as a rogue....go with 2 handed weapons or a weapon and shield early on. If you plan on depending on sneak attack damage i'd say grab a nice medium shield a nice chain shirt (+3 at your level). If you can find one cheap at the AH grab a mithril Chain Shirt and use a cats grace buff as well and you'll be able to boost your AC significantly (especially with uncanny dodge) when you need it.

If you grab power attack the two handed weapon setup will be real nice. Without it....the 1 weapon and shield will probably be better. You get just as much sneak attack damage with a 1 handed weapon..and it might keep you from getting aggro.....and the bonus AC from your shield (5 ac with a medium shield +3) could certainly help (you can use shield spell clickies with a 2 handed weapon for almost the same effect though...and it stops magic missiles as well.

Missing_Minds
02-15-2011, 06:54 AM
I'm going to re iterate what the 2nd poster said. You are not proficient with your DA unless you took the feat for exotic weapon prof.

I NEVER trust what that inventory window says, but only what the dice roll says. Also if you have a ! In the top right, chances are you are taking the -4 non prof hit.

A DA also does glancing blows like a two handed weapon if you are prof, so at lvl 4, I"d be running with a shield instead.

Lastly, even if you do have TWF feat, that is only a... what... 40% chance you'll roll for an off hand hit.

Crann
02-15-2011, 07:12 AM
Lastly, even if you do have TWF feat, that is only a... what... 40% chance you'll roll for an off hand hit.

Alot of people miss that.

no TWF feats = 20% chance to swing off hand
TWF = 40%
ITWF= 60 %
GTWF= 80%

Animation still occurs, just no roll to hit. Should be considering 2 hander until you at least get ITWF.

Dozen_Black_Roses
02-15-2011, 07:22 AM
One other thing that I didnt notice suggested thus far...was there any kind of dungeon alert? The mobs have increased saves and ac with higher dungeon alert. I would assume if you were just running it with some hirelings, you did not, but I hate to assume anything.

LittleM
02-15-2011, 07:52 AM
As a lvl 4 rogue your attack modifiers are:
+3/+3/+8/+13 = basic attack bonuses, for the 4 attacks in the chain
-4 = penalty for using 2 dwarven axes
+3 = str bonus
+1 = Weapons bonus
+1 = lesser reptilian bane to hit bonus
+2 = other bonuses (buffs, sneak attack, flanking,...)

-4 = movement penalty for to hit

The to hit bonus displayed in inventory screen is based on your last attack vs a mob. It can be either +3, +8 or +13 in your case, depending which swing in the chain was last used. Go in an inn and check your to hit bonus.

elujin
02-15-2011, 08:01 AM
don't know if this is addressed already but rogs don't get martial weapons and the exotic Daxes are only lowered to martial weapons by beeing a dwarf so your not proficient with them on a pure rog unless you take the feat exotic Daxes.
If your not proficient thats a extra -4

Missing_Minds
02-15-2011, 08:23 AM
don't know if this is addressed already but rogs don't get martial weapons and the exotic Daxes are only lowered to martial weapons by beeing a dwarf so your not proficient with them on a pure rog unless you take the feat exotic Daxes.
If your not proficient thats a extra -4


yes I do have TWF and Dwarven Axe, but not Oversize

I'd say he has it. So he didn't fall into that common trap.

Stitch78
02-15-2011, 08:34 AM
don't know if this is addressed already but rogs don't get martial weapons and the exotic Daxes are only lowered to martial weapons by beeing a dwarf so your not proficient with them on a pure rog unless you take the feat exotic Daxes.
If your not proficient thats a extra -4

^^This.

Taking the Exotic Weapon Prof: D. Axe on a class that does not have Martial Weapons proficiency will remove the non-proficiency penalty. HOWEVER, even though Dwarves are automatically "granted" this feat, not all Dwarves benefit from it. Sort of. Rogues only have martial weapons proficiency in rapiers, shortswords and shortbows. Because your Dwarf rogue is not proficient with marital weapons, you are still take the -4 penalty for using dwarven axes.

Look at it like this: Dwarves automatically treat dwarven axes as martial (not exotic) weapons.

So, as a level 4 Dwarf rogue, you have two feats that you have spent. I'm guessing one was on Two Weapon Fighting and the other was Toughness (based on your 57 hp at level 4). So on top of the penalties for moving, two-weapon-fighting, not having a light weapon in your off-hand and your 3/4 BAB, you are taking a -4 to each hand for the exotic weapon.

(Does anyone know if you take a -8 stacking penalty if you use exotic martial weps without proficiency?)

EDIT: Missing Minds above pointed out the feats issue, but I still think he must have taken Toughness, not Daxes.

EKKM
02-15-2011, 02:26 PM
[
great, then we have the answer for you!

shuffling a bit will trigger the -4 movement penalty, and its a real pain as those kobbies like to hop all over the place

you're also taking a hit from that second dwarven axe, so find a light weapon (hand axe ideally, http://ddowiki.com/page/Weapons_by_handedness for a full list of light weapons).

but still keep a 1 weapon only set to hand, as you might still want that extra +2 to hit at times. come end game the TWF penalty wont be significant, but right now it is.

You and a few others suggested a hand axe as a light off hand weapon. While a hand axe is a light weapon, it is also a martial weapon which he is not proficient in.

To avoid the to hit penalty he will need to use a light simple weapon such as a dagger or sickle; or a short sword (which rogues are proficient in).

Anarkius
02-15-2011, 02:50 PM
[

You and a few others suggested a hand axe as a light off hand weapon. While a hand axe is a light weapon, it is also a martial weapon which he is not proficient in.

To avoid the to hit penalty he will need to use a light simple weapon such as a dagger or sickle; or a short sword (which rogues are proficient in).

Good catch - unless the proficiency is taken, the hand axe is NOT an appropriate choice for a rogue. I did overlook that. ;)

Dragavon
02-15-2011, 02:58 PM
^^This.

Taking the Exotic Weapon Prof: D. Axe on a class that does not have Martial Weapons proficiency will remove the non-proficiency penalty. HOWEVER, even though Dwarves are automatically "granted" this feat, not all Dwarves benefit from it. Sort of. Rogues only have martial weapons proficiency in rapiers, shortswords and shortbows. Because your Dwarf rogue is not proficient with marital weapons, you are still take the -4 penalty for using dwarven axes.

You sir, do not have a clue what you are talking about.

If a dorf rogue takes the exotic weapons dorf axe feat, the dorf rogue suffers no penalty for using said axes.

yawumpus
02-15-2011, 03:27 PM
I think several posters have suggested using a two handed weapon. As far as I know, rogues are only proficient in quarterstaff. If you can score a +2 strength item (to get a +4 strength bonus), it might be worth it, but I can't see using a quarterstaff as a weapon (they barely work well as clickies).

I guess it depends on if your 4th level rogue can reliably cast master's voice from a UMDed scroll (for a greataxe).

ReaperAlexEU
02-15-2011, 03:39 PM
[

You and a few others suggested a hand axe as a light off hand weapon. While a hand axe is a light weapon, it is also a martial weapon which he is not proficient in.

To avoid the to hit penalty he will need to use a light simple weapon such as a dagger or sickle; or a short sword (which rogues are proficient in).

good catch, and +1 for pointing it out :)

simsiim
02-15-2011, 11:20 PM
First off I’d like to say thank you

Thank you


reading all this is disheartening and liberating .
I had really thought I had it covered, to be able to use Dwarven Axes on a Rogue without the need to splash in Fighter. I might have something, just not recommended at the low levels.
I do want this Dwarf to fall in that Stereotypical looking role, of using Dwarven Axes, so it’s safe to say this is not your typical min/max build. Though not your stereotypical assassin weapon ;)
I also wanted to go Two-Weapon-Fighting, rather then a 2 hand.

The Dishearten part is , I’m just not going to get the results I feel I should be getting at low levels, the Liberating part, not all is a total loss, I just need to wait on a couple more feats.
I was almost going to just scrap the idea of TWF, and just use the free feat exchange and switch to THF, since THF would be cheaper and use less inventory space. But, I’m going to stay with TWF, and Dwarven Axes. So Until I get the feats to make Dwarven axes useful, I’ll grab me a decent 2h weapon, probably look for a good backstabbing Great Axe

Again thank you for spotting what I could not see and explaining to me why I was missing so much. I seem to have no problems with the current setup as long as I do normal and Hard, the misses are just a problem on Elites, so till I find that 2h weapon, I’ll avoid Elites

ReaperAlexEU
02-16-2011, 04:39 AM
dont forget that you wont have training with a martial 2-hander either. stick with the dorf axe, you have training in that now, pair it with a simple 1-hander (d'oh on the bad handaxe advice, sorry!) then get imp TWF, grt TWP and oversized TWF.

technically imp and grt TWF will benefit your character more in the lower levels than oversized will. but i think for fun take oversized first so you can get back to waving two proper sized axes about.

if you want to compare your idea of a dual dorf axe wielding rogue to other builds, look for ones that use two kopesh. there is bound to be a few that get it all working with the pesh, and the only difference between what they are doing and what you are doing is which exotic feat you took. the rest will be identical and you may decide to just follow a build with a few tweaks for race and weapon type

Stitch78
02-16-2011, 09:26 AM
You sir, do not have a clue what you are talking about.

If a dorf rogue takes the exotic weapons dorf axe feat, the dorf rogue suffers no penalty for using said axes.

Lol, I think you rolled a 1 on the Reading Comprehension skill check there. Everything I posted was absolutely true. Your second statement was also true.

1) If you aquire the feat, Exotic Wep Proficiency: Dwarven Axes, no matter what your race or class, you will be proficient with Daxes, period; and

2) If you have or acquire the feat Martial Wep Proficiency AND you are a Dwarf, you will be proficient with Daxes; and

3) If you have or acquire the feat Martial Wep Proficiency but are not a Dwarf, you need to TAKE the additional feat Exotic Wep Proficiency: Dwarven Axes or you will suffer the -4 non-proficiency penalty; therefore

4) If you are a Dwarf, but do not have or acuire the feat Martial Wep Proficiency OR Exotic Wep Proficiency: Dwarven Axes, you will suffer the -4 non-proficiency penalty.

OP is a level 4 Rogue who took as feats Toughness and Two Weapon Fighting. Rogues are not proficient with all martial weapons. OP did not take the feat Exotic Wep Proficiency: Dwarven Axes and there is no way to acquire that feat through spells or equipment, therefore OP is suffering the -4 non-proficiency penalty.

simsiim
02-16-2011, 04:51 PM
dont forget that you wont have training with a martial 2-hander either. stick with the dorf axe, you have training in that now, pair it with a simple 1-hander (d'oh on the bad handaxe advice, sorry!) then get imp TWF, grt TWP and oversized TWF.


well, what about a long or short sword, or even a Rapier in that off hand ? I could do that
just not the same damage dealing as if I was able to use 2 D-Axes



< not replying to this section that is removed>

OP is a level 4 Rogue who took as feats Toughness and Two Weapon Fighting. Rogues are not proficient with all martial weapons. OP did not take the feat Exotic Wep Proficiency: Dwarven Axes and there is no way to acquire that feat through spells or equipment, therefore OP is suffering the -4 non-proficiency penalty.

Well I can answer this, Guessing your using OP as me, since I was the one that started the post

I never said I took Toughness, But I have said I took TWF and the Dwarven Axe Feat.
I still don't have toughness, was counting on the Enhancement 'Dwarven Constitution I " to help out till I do get Toughness. I did know that I would had to skip on Toughness to not have a penalty if I want to use Two Dwarven Axes, what I didn't know was how my BAB effects this, It's hindsight now, and a lesson learned.
Also even though I could read it, I was not registering the fact that the TWF feat just gives me a 40% chance. That for having less misses, I would need ITWF.

Kinerd
02-16-2011, 05:07 PM
well, what about a long or short sword, or even a Rapier in that off hand ? I could do that
just not the same damage dealing as if I was able to use 2 D-AxesThe idea is to use a light weapon in the off-hand. Short sword, dagger, light mace, or sickle are the light weapons you can use with proficiency.
Also even though I could read it, I was not registering the fact that the TWF feat just gives me a 40% chance. That for having less misses, I would need ITWFTWF gives you a 40% chance to process an off-hand attack roll at all, ITWF increases this chance to 60%. It has nothing to do with hitting or missing.

simsiim
02-16-2011, 05:17 PM
The idea is to use a light weapon in the off-hand. Short sword, dagger, light mace, or sickle are the light weapons you can use with proficiency.TWF gives you a 40% chance to process an off-hand attack roll at all, ITWF increases this chance to 60%. It has nothing to do with hitting or missing.
oh :o, seee I read into it wrong again, thank you

speaking of weapons, my plan for dealing with skeletons was to have one set of WarHammers, I cannot remember if I can use those. Guess I could just go to DDOWiki and look at the Dwarf & Rogue again.

Edit: I just took a look at DDOWiki, the Warhammer idea is not going to work, Ohh well now to think of a Plan B ... . hehe get it Plan b, B for Blunt to deal with skeletons . . hehe . .. ahh okay not so funny, just bored

Bahgs
02-16-2011, 06:13 PM
oh :o, seee I read into it wrong again, thank you

speaking of weapons, my plan for dealing with skeletons was to have one set of WarHammers, I cannot remember if I can use those. Guess I could just go to DDOWiki and look at the Dwarf & Rogue again.

Edit: I just took a look at DDOWiki, the Warhammer idea is not going to work, Ohh well now to think of a Plan B ... . hehe get it Plan b, B for Blunt to deal with skeletons . . hehe . .. ahh okay not so funny, just bored
Rogues should be proficient in mace / light mace, or so I recall.

Emyk
02-17-2011, 02:48 AM
The idea is to use a light weapon in the off-hand. Short sword, dagger, light mace, or sickle are the light weapons you can use with proficiency.TWF gives you a 40% chance to process an off-hand attack roll at all, ITWF increases this chance to 60%. It has nothing to do with hitting or missing.

I would like ask confirmation about what you said. I'm a human rogue going for the assassin DEX build (the standard rogue assassin posted in the forums) and I've been dual wielding a rapier and a short sword since level 2. Since I'm following that standard build, right now at level 6 I have TWF and OTWF and now I'm going to get 2 rapiers.

I've been reading that I should use a shield and a rapier until I get the ITWF feat because that is the reason my weapon can miss so much in certain circumstances.

If I understood right what you said, what these people claim is wrong, since those feats only improve the hit chance of the offhand weapon, and don't mess with the main hand weapon, so I am trading extra AC for the possibility of extra damage. Is that right?

So, I am right indeed for using two weapons as a rogue, unless I need more AC for a quest, then a shield wouldn't hurt.

This game can be confusing, if I didn't read the forums at level 2 I would probably be using 2 rapiers that time.

ReaperAlexEU
02-17-2011, 05:23 AM
as soon as you pick up a second weapon you get a to-hit penalty. with the right feats that penalty is greatly reduced, down to -2 if you get it right.

at the lower levels -2 is quite significant so its always worth having a single weapon close to hand if you find your self struggling to hit

the two weapon fighting feat is the basic training you need to reduce the harsh penalties, with that feat alone and a light off hand weapon you will have the best case -2 to hit. however with just that feat there is only a 40% chance of your character making an extra attack with the off hand. thats where the other two feats come in, improved and greater two weapon fighting. those 2 feats boost the chance of you making an off hand attack. remember that making an attack and hitting with it are 2 very different things. think of it as a percentage chance that you click the attack button in the first place, once clicked you still have to successfully hit.

oversized twf adds on top of all the other feats to allow you to swing a full sized 1-handed weapon in your off hand.

there is one exception to the -2 penalty, and thats the tempest ranger. a tempest ranger can eventually negate all penalties for dual wielding, and if that wasnt good enough they also only need 13 dex to do it, get the main TWF feats for free and also get a small bonus to the number of main hand attacks they do. if there was ever a newbie friendly class to dual wield with, the ranger is that class.

Kinerd
02-17-2011, 08:08 PM
I would like ask confirmation about what you said. I'm a human rogue going for the assassin DEX build (the standard rogue assassin posted in the forums) and I've been dual wielding a rapier and a short sword since level 2. Since I'm following that standard build, right now at level 6 I have TWF and OTWF and now I'm going to get 2 rapiers.

I've been reading that I should use a shield and a rapier until I get the ITWF feat because that is the reason my weapon can miss so much in certain circumstances.

If I understood right what you said, what these people claim is wrong, since those feats only improve the hit chance of the offhand weapon, and don't mess with the main hand weapon, so I am trading extra AC for the possibility of extra damage. Is that right?

So, I am right indeed for using two weapons as a rogue, unless I need more AC for a quest, then a shield wouldn't hurt.

This game can be confusing, if I didn't read the forums at level 2 I would probably be using 2 rapiers that time.As ReaperAlexEU says, fighting with two weapons at all causes a to-hit penalty. What I was talking about was that going from TWF to ITWF doesn't affect this penalty at all. If you missed with TWF, you would miss with ITWF exactly as much.

Crann
02-21-2011, 07:44 AM
I guess it depends on if your 4th level rogue can reliably cast master's voice from a UMDed scroll (for a greataxe).

Just keep in mind that the casting of Master's Touch only effects the weapon you are currently holding, not going to work with a 2 hander from scroll.


OP, take a level of fighter...it really seems to fit what you are trying to do here. You dont waste the feat on Exotic Weapon:D-Axe, and you gain another feat for the fighter level.

You can relatively inexpensively swap feats at lower levels, and you get one feat swap for free.

If you take this character to cap, and you really want to have the rogue capstone, then LR +1 back to pure rogue then, in the meantime you will benefit much more from the fighter level than by staying pure.

katz
02-21-2011, 08:59 AM
ok, granted, i didn't read every single post. if this question/concern has been addressed already, and i missed it, i'm sorry. however, there has been some confusion as to whether the OP actually has the dorf axe feat or not, due to concerns of what feats he has actually taken at level 4, seeing how, at 4th, he only has 2 feats to play with. did he take TWF and dwarf axe, or TWF and toughness, or something else entirely?

IF he has dwarf axe feat already, do as others have suggested, and pair it with a buckler, and all of a sudden, guess what, it's like you're using a 2-hander, 1-handed. you get the glancing hits just like a greatsword or greataxe at a tasty 1d10 x3 crit damage. :cool: you LOSE that benefit if you pair it with an off-hand weapon. :eek: and considering at the lower levels you aren't hitting with the off hand much anyway, you lose alot

even if you DON'T have the dwarf axe feat (took toughness and TWF instead) don't despair. the master's touch scroll is still a viable route, just not with a greataxe. hold your dwarf axe of choice, scroll cast master's touch. equip the shield, whoop up on some baddies. rinse and repeat until you are the level to have all the feats you need to do what you want.

yes, it's a bit easier to just throw a level of figher in there for not only all the weapon proficiencies, but also the extra feat, but it seems the OP wants to remain pure rogue.



TL;DL don't buy a 2 hander, you already have one (sorta). use a buckler in your offhand instead till you get moar feats.

Missing_Minds
02-21-2011, 09:26 AM
well, what about a long or short sword, or even a Rapier in that off hand ? I could do that
just not the same damage dealing as if I was able to use 2 D-Axes


A short sword would be fine, but long and rapiers are large weapons for the purpose of off hand.
Also, you can use a sycle as an off hander. Back in the day, there was high price demand for these as they are the only slicing (aka vorpal) light offhand weapons a rogue is prof with.

There is a special named rapier, Fell Rapier of Ice, that is considered a light weapons for the purpose of off hand fighting.
There is also the Sun Blade, which does BS/DA dice damage, but requires short sword prof which you'd have as a rogue. This is a fun weapon at the lower levels also.

SaneDitto
02-21-2011, 12:23 PM
Also, you can use a sycle as an off hander. Back in the day, there was high price demand for these as they are the only slicing (aka vorpal) light offhand weapons a rogue is prof with.

I think you meant "sickle"...right? :o

bartosy
02-21-2011, 01:32 PM
I think the +10 might be bugged too as you go through attacks the + hit goes up up up up then revers back to normal thats a normal atk pattern sometimes the numbers get stuck and you see a not real to hit.. but instead a to hit thats stuck on atk 2 3 4 or 5 wich gives a faulty to hit number. as a rogue and with 2 weapons even with the first twf feat and +1 weapons without ship buffs your to hit will be much much lower at 4..

these are also large weapons an d i doubt you get otwf wich incurs -2 to hit also so those +10 must be bugged unless you run around with major ship buffs.. and even then its a bit high for a lvl 4.

If you dont wanna miss so much you either have to use higher + weapons wich up your atk and damage.

get the to hit flanking bonus as halfling and rogue.

lvl up and get more twf feats

use 1 weapon and a shield untill you get itwf gtwf and beyond.