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PwnHammer40K
02-14-2011, 12:02 PM
Just pitching in with a suggestion for the Epic loot system:

Let us receive an Epic Scroll by using the base item in the Altar of Epic Rituals along with a sufficiently high number of Epic Tokens (20 should be fine as with everything else.) Here's the catch: The base item should be lost in the process.


For example: say I wanted a Scroll of the Bloodstone.
I'd place an actual Bloodstone into the Epic Altar, along with 20 Epic Tokens, and receive a Bloodstone Scroll but lose the Bloodstone itself.


Having to grind for the actual item all over again should offset the grievances of any players who might view this exchange system as an "easy button" while still softening the frustration for the less fortunate. Most importantly, it would give everyone a clearly visible goal to press our effort towards, instead of shambling on for the 100th run of an Epic quest not knowing whether or not we'd finally get lucky THIS time. :rolleyes:


If it's STILL too easy for the more masochistic among us, then maybe for items that're more easily acquired, like the sets from the Chronoscope or Red Fens, you would need to feed a larger number of Tokens, say 30 for a Claw of Vulkoor scroll, or 10 RAID Tokens for a Hellstroke Greataxe scroll.


On a side note, I really like what Turbine did with the Droaam crafting system: you can either grind for the Marks or just purchase them with Astral Diamonds. maybe they could implement something similar for Epic crafting as well, i.e. have an option to substitute Tokens in my suggestion with Diamonds, if you had the TP to spare.


and while we're at it, please let us break down 1 Epic Raid Token to 2 Epic Dungeon Tokens as well :)

stoolcannon
02-14-2011, 12:06 PM
lol you start with a great idea and then just throw turds all over it.

Sorry but no one is ever going to put their SOS in an altar and destroy it for a scroll. Not to mention the fact that people would now loot it, turn it into the scroll and sell it. No more rolling on it in chest. Bad idea.

Token Turn in + DEstroy item = /Not Signed

Token Turn in = /Signed

doubledge
02-14-2011, 12:09 PM
lol you start with a great idea and then just throw turds all over it.

Sorry but no one is ever going to put their SOS in an altar and destroy it for a scroll. Not to mention the fact that people would now loot it, turn it into the scroll and sell it. No more rolling on it in chest. Bad idea.

Token Turn in + DEstroy item = /Not Signed

Token Turn in = /Signed

what he said

Unreliable
02-14-2011, 12:10 PM
You can already get 1 epic dungeon token for 1 raid token, asking for 2:1 is greedy.

stoolcannon
02-14-2011, 12:11 PM
You can already get 1 epic dungeon token for 1 raid token, asking for 2:1 is greedy.

OMG I did not know this and I have like 75 epic raid tokens ::serious hardcore blush::

Is that really true?

Unreliable
02-14-2011, 12:12 PM
OMG I did not know this and I have like 75 epic raid tokens ::serious hardcore blush::

Is that really true?

Yes put your stack of tokens in a stone of change and crunch. It changes 1 raid into 1 dungeon at a time, but it works.

stoolcannon
02-14-2011, 12:12 PM
OMG I did not know this and I have like 75 epic raid tokens ::serious hardcore blush::

Is that really true?

ahahahahah it is true. DAG NABBIT!!!!! lol

stoolcannon
02-14-2011, 12:13 PM
Yes put your stack of tokens in a stone of change and crunch. It changes 1 raid into 1 dungeon at a time, but it works.

DUde, I've been sitting on these forever thinking *** am I going to do with these? And to top it off I need like 60 regular tokens right now.

You made my day. Lots o reps.

PwnHammer40K
02-14-2011, 12:14 PM
lol you start with a great idea and then just throw turds all over it.

Sorry but no one is ever going to put their SOS in an altar and destroy it for a scroll.And no one has to. Yeah you missed that part didn't you? :rolleyes:


The idea as presented above could only open up more OPTIONS for everyone:

1. Keep trudging on in a blind grind for Scrolls via kills, as per the status quo.

OR

2. Grind for another copy of the item itself so you can buy the Scroll with Tokens. This option provides you with 2 more ways to go about it:

2a. If you already have the number of Tokens required to buy a scroll, you can grind for a duplicate item in the normal (non-Epic) versions of the quests that it drops in.

OR

2b. If you do NOT have enough Tokens for a Scroll, you can grind for a duplicate item in the Epic versions of the quests that it drops in. Doing the Epic versions will of course give you a chance to get a Scroll in the usual way, by kills, so if you're lucky you might get a scroll anyway without having to spend any tokens or give up the item itself.


Either way, it's just more ways for everyone to enjoy their time with this game as they see fit. No one should have any problem with that.



and hey, in a way, the Epic system already requires you to make a compromise by losing the use of an upgraded item before Level 20 in your next life. :)

PwnHammer40K
02-14-2011, 12:15 PM
You can already get 1 epic dungeon token for 1 raid token, asking for 2:1 is greedy.WOW :eek: I really didn't know this. Oh nevermind, 1:1 is fine enough :D

dkyle
02-14-2011, 12:24 PM
I think it's the seed of a decent idea. The problem with pure token turn-ins is that they're generic. You could get a scroll without spending anything you earned from the content the scroll is supposed to come from. This encourages farming the highest token/min content, instead of running the content the item is from.

The biggest problem with your suggestion, though, is the wide disparity in base item rarity. For example, most EChrono items are completely trivial to get, whereas a Torc can evade a caster for 60 or more runs.

I think it would be a better idea to allow transmutation of the other components, scroll, seal, and shard, into each other by spending tokens, rather than turning in the base item.

Also, any scrolls gotten by trading in BtA items, should themselves be BtA.

Darsith
02-14-2011, 12:28 PM
I like the mechanic of

item + tokens = scroll (keep item) this would put a limit to scroll collection. (scrolls this way should also end up bta)

the item + tokens = scroll (item lost) is a bad idea. Maybe if we had a special loot list every 5/10 runs.

Off topic

What if the mechanic was:

item + token = new property added to item that replaces scroll in epicing an item

http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/Xellosthefifth/DDO/epicscrollidea.jpg
http://i265.photobucket.com/albums/ii226/Xellosthefifth/DDO/epicscrollidea.jpg

This would prevent misuse of the scroll function to make plat and would provide what we actually want, a more efficient way to obtain the scrolls.

PwnHammer40K
02-14-2011, 12:30 PM
I think it's the seed of a decent idea. The problem with pure token turn-ins is that they're generic. You could get a scroll without spending anything you earned from the content the scroll is supposed to come from. This encourages farming the highest token/min content, instead of running the content the item is from...you'd still need to run the relevant content for two copies of the actual item (one to sacrifice for the scroll and another to actually upgrade and use) and the Seals and Shards etc. :)


The biggest problem with your suggestion, though, is the wide disparity in base item rarity. For example, most EChrono items are completely trivial to get, whereas a Torc can evade a caster for 60 or more runs.That's why I said different items could require a different number of Tokens for their scroll. It could also be based on the Minimum Level or the "+plus" value of the actual item, kind of like how you spend different number of Eberron Dragonshard Fragements to Bind & Attune a generic item in the Stone of Change now.

stoolcannon
02-14-2011, 12:34 PM
I think it's the seed of a decent idea. The problem with pure token turn-ins is that they're generic. You could get a scroll without spending anything you earned from the content the scroll is supposed to come from. This encourages farming the highest token/min content, instead of running the content the item is from.

The biggest problem with your suggestion, though, is the wide disparity in base item rarity. For example, most EChrono items are completely trivial to get, whereas a Torc can evade a caster for 60 or more runs.

I think it would be a better idea to allow transmutation of the other components, scroll, seal, and shard, into each other by spending tokens, rather than turning in the base item.

Also, any scrolls gotten by trading in BtA items, should themselves be BtA.

Again though: If you make the seals or SHards components of a turn in for a scroll you will NEVER get to roll on them again. The drop rates are abysmally low as it is, do you want to further decrease your shot at an SOS shard just because some guy is gonna go use it to crunch it to a scroll?

PwnHammer40K
02-14-2011, 12:36 PM
Again though: If you make the seals or SHards components of a turn in for a scroll you will NEVER get to roll on them again. The drop rates are abysmally low as it is, do you want to further decrease your shot at an SOS shard just because some guy is gonna go use it to crunch it to a scroll?Point, and a scary thought :eek:

dkyle
02-14-2011, 12:37 PM
That's why I said different items could require a different number of Tokens for their scroll. It could also be based on the Minimum Level/value of the actual item, kind of like how you spend different number of Eberron Dragonshard Fragements to Bind & Attune a generic item in the Stone of Change now.

The ML of the base item is meaningless. Among the most valuable scrolls in the game currently are EChrono item scrolls. The base Chrono items are trivial to get, meaning they should have the highest token costs.

Your suggestion would require the devs to individually price scrolls in terms of tokens to be remotely balanced. This would be very complicated to do given the fundamental differences between a generic item like tokens, and a specific item like a Torq. How many tokens represent the time it takes to get a Torq? Is that how many tokens a Charged Gauntlets scroll would cost, since the "cost" of the item itself is minuscule?

andbr22
02-14-2011, 12:39 PM
Well yeah.
Destroying item would be bad, because more loot drama.
I would allow for chosen scrolls for tokens but something great like: at least 50 tokens (for realy desperate people).
This same could go for seals and shards, but on other hand you should at least run of some content that you want to create epic item.

dkyle
02-14-2011, 12:47 PM
Alternative idea: have BtA "adventure pack"-specific parchment that can be used as any scroll, with enough numbers (thinking 20), that drop at a significantly higher rate than normal scrolls. On average, each player would expect to get around one parchment per completion.

You might have: Draconic Parchment for VoN, Demonic Parchment for Sands, Temporal Parchment for Chrono, etc.

This way, you can expect to get the item you want after a while with decent certainty, but a scroll is still a cool drop, as it means getting the item sooner.

Like getting the Raid loot you want from a chest instead of a 20th.

Impaqt
02-14-2011, 12:49 PM
There have been significantly better ideas presented in regards to scroll drops.

1: Simply increase the drop rate. 1% or whatever it is now is ridiculous.

2: Add Random scrolls to Epic End reward lists. The fact that these lists provide rewards for the base level of the quest is stupid.

3: Add scrolls to Chest loot table.


Any of these three would make the grind more bearable and not require you to destroy a valuable item.

Irinis
02-14-2011, 12:54 PM
I'd say just add a very rich scroll vendor who likes to plaster his house in epic scrolls and is happy to exchange say 5 of the lesser value ones for the one you want... because that'll cover more of his house and he doesn't care which scrolls he keeps... :D

stoolcannon
02-14-2011, 12:56 PM
I'd say just add a very rich scroll vendor who likes to plaster his house in epic scrolls and is happy to exchange say 5 of the lesser value ones for the one you want... because that'll cover more of his house and he doesn't care which scrolls he keeps... :D

Great idea.

PwnHammer40K
02-14-2011, 12:57 PM
I'd say just add a very rich scroll vendor who likes to plaster his house in epic scrolls and is happy to exchange say 5 of the lesser value ones for the one you want... because that'll cover more of his house and he doesn't care which scrolls he keeps... :D:lol:

yes please.

PwnHammer40K
02-14-2011, 12:59 PM
There have been significantly better ideas presented in regards to scroll drops.

1: Simply increase the drop rate. 1% or whatever it is now is ridiculous.

2: Add Random scrolls to Epic End reward lists. The fact that these lists provide rewards for the base level of the quest is stupid.

3: Add scrolls to Chest loot table.


Any of these three would make the grind more bearable and not require you to destroy a valuable item.Come now, don't be silly. Something so straightforward and intuitive will never get implemented, and we know it. :p



Alternative idea: have BtA "adventure pack"-specific parchment that can be used as any scroll, with enough numbers (thinking 20), that drop at a significantly higher rate than normal scrolls. On average, each player would expect to get around one parchment per completion.

You might have: Draconic Parchment for VoN, Demonic Parchment for Sands, Temporal Parchment for Chrono, etc.

This way, you can expect to get the item you want after a while with decent certainty, but a scroll is still a cool drop, as it means getting the item sooner.

Like getting the Raid loot you want from a chest instead of a 20th.
Now that's an actually great idea.

bendover
02-14-2011, 01:44 PM
For the most part (outside of Greensteel) Epic gear is the best end game equipment there is. This stuff should be this hard to get a hold of. That's what DDO is all about. It's a grind fest that's the intention of the game. If everything we wanted could be had easier and easier people wouldn't need to play as much to get what they wanted and that's clearly not a goal of Turbine.

Play time = money. Epic gear = top of the line end game. So the more difficult and time consuming this takes the more satisfaction one has when they finally do get said item which is what keeps (most of us) coming back for more. This stuff is epic for a reason it should be the most difficult stuff to obtain.

Us as players are constantly looking for the easy button to things. Granted there are always going to be problems and/or systems that are in need of improvement, but come on man this is epic it's "suppose" to be tough.

Irinis
02-14-2011, 07:22 PM
For the most part (outside of Greensteel) Epic gear is the best end game equipment there is. This stuff should be this hard to get a hold of. That's what DDO is all about. It's a grind fest that's the intention of the game. If everything we wanted could be had easier and easier people wouldn't need to play as much to get what they wanted and that's clearly not a goal of Turbine.

Play time = money. Epic gear = top of the line end game. So the more difficult and time consuming this takes the more satisfaction one has when they finally do get said item which is what keeps (most of us) coming back for more. This stuff is epic for a reason it should be the most difficult stuff to obtain.

Us as players are constantly looking for the easy button to things. Granted there are always going to be problems and/or systems that are in need of improvement, but come on man this is epic it's "suppose" to be tough.

I really hope the epic reboot makes it at least fun busywork instead of boring busywork. Shroud grind is bad enough. 6-12 months to get ings for ONE character? Then epics, you could play for years and not see anything completed unless you're lucky or well-liked enough that people pass you stuff in the chest... or even trade...

PwnHammer40K
02-15-2011, 03:33 AM
Your suggestion would require the devs to individually price scrolls in terms of tokens to be remotely balanced. This would be very complicated to do given the fundamental differences between a generic item like tokens, and a specific item like a Torq. How many tokens represent the time it takes to get a Torq? Is that how many tokens a Charged Gauntlets scroll would cost, since the "cost" of the item itself is minuscule?If we're going to start worrying about how "hard" it would be for the developers of this game to implement anything, then we better stop asking for any further improvements at all. :rolleyes:

Let's just put Brocolli Hats as the top priority :p

geoffhanna
02-15-2011, 05:58 AM
I think it's the seed of a decent idea. The problem with pure token turn-ins is that they're generic. You could get a scroll without spending anything you earned from the content the scroll is supposed to come from. This encourages farming the highest token/min content, instead of running the content the item is from.

The biggest problem with your suggestion, though, is the wide disparity in base item rarity. For example, most EChrono items are completely trivial to get, whereas a Torc can evade a caster for 60 or more runs.

I think it would be a better idea to allow transmutation of the other components, scroll, seal, and shard, into each other by spending tokens, rather than turning in the base item.

Also, any scrolls gotten by trading in BtA items, should themselves be BtA.

++

dkyle
02-15-2011, 06:57 AM
If we're going to start worrying about how "hard" it would be for the developers of this game to implement anything, then we better stop asking for any further improvements at all. :rolleyes:

The developers don't have unlimited time. The effort required to implement a suggestion is absolutely an essential consideration of the feasibility of a suggestion.

And what's more, "hard" doesn't just mean time. It means skill. And quite frankly, considering the huge number of "epic fail" items, I don't think the developers understand their own game well enough to assign balanced prices to all epic items by hand.

Dendrix
02-15-2011, 07:24 AM
Allow 25 Astral Diamonds to replace any one of the (Scroll, Seal, Shard) components in an Epic Crafting ritual.

So any of the four rituals below would be viable.

Base + Scroll + Seal + Shard = Epic Item
Base + Scroll + Seal + 25 Astral Diamonds = Epic Item
Base + Scroll + 25 Astral Diamonds + Shard = Epic Item
Base + 25 Astral Diamonds + Seal + Shard = Epic Item


Dragon Scale + 5 Astral Diamonds + Red Paint = Red Dragon Scale :)

Astraghal
02-15-2011, 07:50 AM
The idea of the OP is overcomplicating things.

This is how it should be.

Once you have run the quest/raid that the item you are interested in is associated with on Epic difficulty, you should be able to turn in Epic Dugeon Tokens to an NPC for your choice of a Shard, Seal or Scroll.

Each should cost 30 Epic Dungeon Tokens.

Upon Completing an Epic difficulty quest 30 times you get a choice of (perhaps all) of the seals from that quest.

Upon completing any Epic difficulty end of chain quest or raid 20 times, you get a choice of (perhaps all) of the shards from that series.

This would fix Epic.

PwnHammer40K
02-15-2011, 07:59 AM
Allow 25 Astral Diamonds to replace any one of the (Scroll, Seal, Shard) components in an Epic Crafting ritual.

So any of the four rituals below would be viable.

Base + Scroll + Seal + Shard = Epic Item
Base + Scroll + Seal + 25 Astral Diamonds = Epic Item
Base + Scroll + 25 Astral Diamonds + Shard = Epic Item
Base + 25 Astral Diamonds + Seal + Shard = Epic Item


Dragon Scale + 5 Astral Diamonds + Red Paint = Red Dragon Scale :)That'd work too.

Best to just have a system like the Cauldron of Sora Katra, where you input an item + some Astral Diamonds, and choose an output from the following list:

Seal of Item
Shard of Item
Scroll of Item

each requiring a varying number of Astrals ofc. (Seals might take 5 Diamonds, like the Marks of Sheshka etc. currently do, Shards 10, and Scrolls 15 to 25)

dkyle
02-15-2011, 08:17 AM
Allow 25 Astral Diamonds to replace any one of the (Scroll, Seal, Shard) components in an Epic Crafting ritual.

Please no. Drop rates on these are insanely low. This would amount to buying endgame loot with real-world cash.

If this game goes there, that will be the beginning of the descent into the same old F2P "pay-for-power" BS DDO currently differentiates itself from. I wasn't interested in playing those games, and I wouldn't be interested in playing DDO anymore if it turned into them.

sweez
02-15-2011, 08:24 AM
You can already purchase scrolls. Outside of Chrono, scrolls are mostly the easiest part of epic crafting.

Hendrik
02-15-2011, 08:39 AM
For the most part (outside of Greensteel) Epic gear is the best end game equipment there is. This stuff should be this hard to get a hold of. That's what DDO is all about. It's a grind fest that's the intention of the game. If everything we wanted could be had easier and easier people wouldn't need to play as much to get what they wanted and that's clearly not a goal of Turbine.

Play time = money. Epic gear = top of the line end game. So the more difficult and time consuming this takes the more satisfaction one has when they finally do get said item which is what keeps (most of us) coming back for more. This stuff is epic for a reason it should be the most difficult stuff to obtain.

Us as players are constantly looking for the easy button to things. Granted there are always going to be problems and/or systems that are in need of improvement, but come on man this is epic it's "suppose" to be tough.

QFT.

Adding the ability to 'buy' Epic crafting ingreds would push the power-curve so out of whack - nothing could fix the imbalance.

If I was only concerned with my loot, I'd be all for this. This would take me from 4-6 Epic Items each for six characters to eight or more each. So yea, to boost my e-peen, love this idea. But I am not only concerned with my loot, I am concerned with the sudden influx of Epic gear that tosses what 'balance' we have out of line...

Malithar45
02-15-2011, 09:04 AM
Play time = money. Epic gear = top of the line end game.

The largest majority of epic gear isn't created equally though. If EVERY epic item at least had something desirable or proved itself to be very useful in certain situations or against certain enemies, then I don't think we as a player base would be so split. Suddenly, when you loot that scroll of the Garos' Malice, or that seal of Mummy Wrappings, or that shard of the of the Raven's Talons, you'd sit back, and be content thinking 'oh wow, that'll be awesome on my *insert class*.' But, we're not. Epic items as a whole aren't very epic. The few that are are the one's we desire and pursue. Sure, I'm not saying everything needs to be on the level of eSoS, Marilith Chain, Claw set, Abishai pieces, etc. But the largest majority are on a level far, far below GS or raid gear thats YEARS old.

I agree fully that the best gear needs some of the hardest grinds, thats just how MMOs function. But a year+ in pursuit of a specific shard, seal, or scroll from say Sands (funny, thats where the majority of the complaints stem from) is too much. Make the other epics actually epic and usable, and maybe during that massive grind for the specific piece you're after, you'll get some nice things along the way that, while you weren't specifically after, do have a use.

Edit: And as for OT:


You can already purchase scrolls. Outside of Chrono, scrolls are mostly the easiest part of epic crafting.

Plenty of suggestions given concerning seals and shards, but I think scrolls are fine as is, except for possibly coming in the end reward list/optional chests.

Dragavon
02-15-2011, 11:54 AM
Just pitching in with a suggestion for the Epic loot system:

Let us receive an Epic Scroll by using the base item in the Altar of Epic Rituals along with a sufficiently high number of Epic Tokens (20 should be fine as with everything else.) Here's the catch: The base item should be lost in the process.


For example: say I wanted a Scroll of the Bloodstone.
I'd place an actual Bloodstone into the Epic Altar, along with 20 Epic Tokens, and receive a Bloodstone Scroll but lose the Bloodstone itself.

Great idea, if the scroll you get is BtC!

jydog100
02-15-2011, 11:59 AM
DUde, I've been sitting on these forever thinking *** am I going to do with these? And to top it off I need like 60 regular tokens right now.

You made my day. Lots o reps.

WOW....release notes???

elricken
02-15-2011, 02:07 PM
So people would be greed looting torcs and mari chains......

/not signed

steeven
02-15-2011, 04:15 PM
For example: say I wanted a Scroll of the Bloodstone.
I'd place an actual Bloodstone into the Epic Altar, along with 20 Epic Tokens, and receive a Bloodstone Scroll but lose the Bloodstone itself.


Having to grind for the actual item all over again should offset the grievances of any players who might view this exchange system as an "easy button" while still softening the frustration for the less fortunate. Most importantly, it would give everyone a clearly visible goal to press our effort towards, instead of shambling on for the 100th run of an Epic quest not knowing whether or not we'd finally get lucky THIS time. :rolleyes:

ok, i think this actually sounds great. not just on the whole lvl of destroying the item(which makes ALOT of sense) but i can only imagine...id be able to finally make something epic...

either that, or make my toon roll better. theres almost nothing worse than running your daily epics, only to find out, week by week, you cant get a scroll unless you solo kill a bunch of stuff. i roll high when i hit stuff, i roll high on saves... i roll high on everything except /roll:mad::(:mad: