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View Full Version : We need "Vow of Poverty" feat/abilities



GentlemanAndAScholar
02-14-2011, 10:10 AM
One of the things I miss the most about PnP was the "Vow of Poverty" feat. For those unfamiliar, Vow of Poverty basically gives your character several powerful at-will abilities (which could be implemented as enhancements in DDO) so long as you are minimally equipped and and remain poor.

In DDO this could be implemented as putting a hard cap on how much possessions you can have. For instance, 10K plat including currency, items and everything in your character inventory and character bank (ignores TR and account stash and AH prices of items) just equipment and currency face value of course. In turn, for example, you could buy a few extra toughness enhancements for a few AP, more mana enhancements, more dmg, etc all purchasable with APs and enhancements unlocking several powerful at-will abilities. This would, in turn, move away from the gross itemization currently in the game. And it gives a chance to be competitive based on build and player skill and less about how many epic items you're wearing.

I ask of fellow forumites that instead of /signed or /not signed please put forth the effort and opinion in the matter.

Cam_Neely
02-14-2011, 10:12 AM
The main issue I see is that stuff that has low 'value' per NPC price can have a crazy high value in trade. So with a shared bank, you could have one toon that keeps the purse, and feeds quality, low value weapons the the toon that took the VoP Feat.

Calebro
02-14-2011, 10:13 AM
lol, I'll take my custom made Greensteel and tons of other awesome gear over VoP any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
VoP was a trap in PnP, it would be the single stupidest character choice one could make in DDO.

You don't happen to play a Mechanic or a Deepwoods Sniper as well, do you?

AMDarkwolf
02-14-2011, 10:18 AM
lol, I'll take my custom made Greensteel and tons of other awesome gear over VoP any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
VoP was a trap in PnP, it would be the single stupidest character choice one could make in DDO.

You don't happen to play a Mechanic or a Deepwoods Sniper as well, do you?

wow. Harsh. But i'd tend to agree.

Calebro
02-14-2011, 10:21 AM
wow. Harsh. But i'd tend to agree.

I just call 'em like I see 'em.

bryanmeerkat
02-14-2011, 10:28 AM
One of the things I miss the most about PnP was the "Vow of Poverty" feat. For those unfamiliar, Vow of Poverty basically gives your character several powerful at-will abilities (which could be implemented as enhancements in DDO) so long as you are minimally equipped and and remain poor.

In DDO this could be implemented as putting a hard cap on how much possessions you can have. For instance, 10K plat including currency, items and everything in your character inventory and character bank (ignores TR and account stash and AH prices of items) just equipment and currency face value of course. In turn, for example, you could buy a few extra toughness enhancements for a few AP, more mana enhancements, more dmg, etc all purchasable with APs and enhancements unlocking several powerful at-will abilities. This would, in turn, move away from the gross itemization currently in the game. And it gives a chance to be competitive based on build and player skill and less about how many epic items you're wearing.

I ask of fellow forumites that instead of /signed or /not signed please put forth the effort and opinion in the matter.

One of the undelying enjoyments in ddo is gearing up .

And poverty means poor , not got a million stashed in account

Rent a flat above a shop
Cut your hair and get a job
Smoke some **** and play some pool
Pretend you never went to school
But still you'll never get it right
'cause when you're laid in bed at night
watching roaches climb the wall
if you called your dad he could stop it all
yeah

GentlemanAndAScholar
02-14-2011, 10:30 AM
lol, I'll take my custom made Greensteel and tons of other awesome gear over VoP any day of the week and twice on Sunday.
VoP was a trap in PnP, it would be the single stupidest character choice one could make in DDO.

You don't happen to play a Mechanic or a Deepwoods Sniper as well, do you?

Really? Hmmmm a lot of DMs wouldn't allow it because they thought it was overpowered. And just because you wouldn't take it, doesn't mean a lot other people wouldn't.

GentlemanAndAScholar
02-14-2011, 10:32 AM
One of the undelying enjoyments in ddo is gearing up .

And poverty means poor , not got a million stashed in account
h

And one of the beauties in PnP was variety of choices.

Memnir
02-14-2011, 10:36 AM
Vow of Poverty is a great source of roll playing potential at the gaming table, and it gives a player there a very cool alternate path to follow, but I don't think it'd be a good fit for DDO. With each and every new update, they'd need to kick in something else to the VoP folks so they don't get further and further behind.

DDO is a Monty Haul campaign, and there is just no getting around that.


/not signed

Calebro
02-14-2011, 10:51 AM
Really? Hmmmm a lot of DMs wouldn't allow it because they thought it was overpowered. And just because you wouldn't take it, doesn't mean a lot other people wouldn't.

It was only considered OP in low levels, or with certain very specific builds.
DDO is not a low level game, nor do any of those builds exist here.

Even a lowly set of Goggles of Insight that you get in Korthos would be unavailable, let alone the host of situational gear we have.
DR breakers? Only if you're a monk, and even then only for certain monsters.
Rogues? Good luck finding the trap with 23 ranks and a +4 modifier, because you don't have any gear to help.
Want to drop a Wall of Fire? Have fun dropping the same FW at cap that any 7th level wiz could do with a little gear.

VoP would be utterly and completely gimp in DDO. Period.

flynnjsw
02-14-2011, 10:51 AM
My suggestion would be to join a static group on a seperate account with no twinking allowed, or go strictly Perma-Death. Those are really the only way you are going to be able to enjoy something like that.

samthedagger
02-14-2011, 10:54 AM
Memnir is correct, as usual. DDO is a Monty Hall game. Break down the door and take the loot, but which door?

If VoP were allowed much of the point of the game would be gone. One of the ways devs keep us playing is by grinding content for rare loot and ingredients. Without equipment, one could easily get bored of the game since so much of the game is focused on obtaining it. Devs would have to instead include "virtual" equipment to keep VoP characters interested. And isn't that really just a different flavor of ice cream?

Sorry, I just don't see this working in DDO.

Entelech
02-14-2011, 10:56 AM
Not /signed.

Vow of Poverty, as presented in the Book of Exalted Deeds, was a not well-balanced or well-thought-out option.

Also, implementation in an MMORPG setting would be incredibly problematic.

voodoogroves
02-14-2011, 10:58 AM
Not /signed.

Vow of Poverty, as presented in the Book of Exalted Deeds, was a not well-balanced or well-thought-out option.

Also, implementation in an MMORPG setting would be incredibly problematic.

OMG RAID LOOT DRAMA


VoP was / is in 3.5 PNP
- A funky path for groups that can handle the RP-restriction
- A way for optimizers to obtain the Saint template and begin stacking WIS to AC multiple times and do other crazy things


I can't imagine how this would work with chests, named loot, raid loot, etc.

Calebro
02-14-2011, 11:01 AM
Vow of Poverty, as presented in the Book of Exalted Deeds, was a not well-balanced or well-thought-out option.

The problem wasn't that it was not well balanced. The problem was that every campaign and every DM were different, but VoP made no adjustments to allow for that.
In a low magic campaign, VoP was horribly OP.
In a medium magic campaign, it was about right.
In a high magic campaign, it was terribly gimp.
But there were no rules to adjust it for any individual campaign, and unless you knew what kind of a campaign it was going to be ahead of time, it wasn't worth the risk.
If you did know what kind of campaign it would be ahead of time, you could plan accordingly and be more prepared than if you had taken VoP.

In DDO, since we're in a high magic campaign, and since we have the knowledge of what's coming, VoP would be gimp.

Cyr
02-14-2011, 11:10 AM
Is it even possible to implement a feat such as this that is not at least one of the following highly undesirable things....

a) Good enough that you don't miss your raid loot...so why they heck run any end game content...

b) Gimped enough that it is not a viable option...

c) Great at low levels, but horrible at high levels due to increased reliance on loot...of course leading to the no brainer get it while leveling then respec out of it....

Honestly this really sounds like a disaster.

Memnir
02-14-2011, 11:21 AM
OMG RAID LOOT DRAMA

I can't imagine how this would work with chests, named loot, raid loot, etc.I can see it going as one of two ways:

VoP Player:
"C'mon guys - I need to hand this stuff off so I can keep my abilities! Who can I assign these Pork Rinds to? Somebody's gotta take em! I litterally can't keep em! Guys? Guys, c'mon - stop recalling!!!"



Other Players:
"Some jerk VoP dude got a Torc - and just left it! Left it, because he said he couldn't use it!!! Change this now!!!"

sephiroth1084
02-14-2011, 11:34 AM
Really? Hmmmm a lot of DMs wouldn't allow it because they thought it was overpowered. And just because you wouldn't take it, doesn't mean a lot other people wouldn't.
It was only OP if you were playing a relatively low-magic game.

DDO is not a low-magic game. It's not even a high-magic game. It's a gonzo-bonkers-insane-magic game!

There is no way for Vow to be competitive in DDO at all. There is simply too much gear it would have to account for with too many wildly varying effects.

Remember, in PnP you get about enough gold to buy something like one +7 weapon, one +6 armor, two or three +6 stat items and a couple of other oddments before you're fully spent, according to the DMG for level 20. It may even be less than that. Vow can compete with that, but not with the golfbag full of weapons for every situation, and Christmas Tree of epic and raid gear that defines our endgame.

voodoogroves
02-14-2011, 11:37 AM
It was only OP if you were playing a relatively low-magic game.

Or something like a monk-druid. Any wis-based caster w/ or w/o a monk splash, for instance. The VoP War Troll Saint can be very, very brutal. Very.

NeutronStar
02-14-2011, 11:47 AM
Really? Hmmmm a lot of DMs wouldn't allow it because they thought it was overpowered. And just because you wouldn't take it, doesn't mean a lot other people wouldn't.

A DM that doesn't allow it in a normal-to-high magic game because he thinks it's OP doesn't know what he's doing. VoP is really only good in a low magic game.

I can see, however, disallowing the VoP because of the potential to create party dis-harmony.

Angelus_dead
02-14-2011, 11:48 AM
One of the things I miss the most about PnP was the "Vow of Poverty" feat.
Vow of Poverty was a mainly nonfunctional feat in D&D, and it'd be much worse in DDO.

The concept just can't work: A character opts-out of participating in loot progression in exchange for compensating extra abilities. One of two bad results will occur:
1. The Poverty character is overpowered compared to characters who haven't got much loot yet, which is bad for balance.
2. The Poverty character is underpowered compared to those who've gotten some decent loot, which is bad for balance.

(Note that related concepts also can't work, such as Monks not needing weapons).


And it gives a chance to be competitive based on build and player skill and less about how many epic items you're wearing.
That would be a really bad result. Just try rephrasing it: "I think a character should be able to have similar power to owning great items, but without having to go out and get great items"

It's only a minor exaggeration to say that "Loot progression is the game", and to allow some players to decide not to play the game would be counterproductive.

Twerpp
02-14-2011, 12:10 PM
I think not being able to loot a single high level chest, wear more than one item, or carry maxed stacks of components is a pretty fair trade off for some extra abilities. I would say also make a re-spec penalty. So lets say you decide that piece of raid loot is too good to pass up and you pull it. Now your VoP feat defaults to slicing blow feat, and now you need to wait three days to re-spec back into VoP with a dragonshard.

Angelus_dead
02-14-2011, 12:16 PM
I think not being able to loot a single high level chest, wear more than one item, or carry maxed stacks of components is a pretty fair trade off for some extra abilities.
Can you explain how that might be a fair trade off?

I think if you try to get into the details of exactly what benefits and penalties VOP would entail, you'll see how it doesn't work. Just look at how much power a level 20 character loses if he empties 9 body slots, try to come up with a feat benefit that could compensate, and then consider the implication of providing that benefit to people who didn't loot anything.

The only way to make VOP work is to implement it as "Loot By Another Name".

shores11
02-14-2011, 12:23 PM
One of the things I miss the most about PnP was the "Vow of Poverty" feat. For those unfamiliar, Vow of Poverty basically gives your character several powerful at-will abilities (which could be implemented as enhancements in DDO) so long as you are minimally equipped and and remain poor.

In DDO this could be implemented as putting a hard cap on how much possessions you can have. For instance, 10K plat including currency, items and everything in your character inventory and character bank (ignores TR and account stash and AH prices of items) just equipment and currency face value of course. In turn, for example, you could buy a few extra toughness enhancements for a few AP, more mana enhancements, more dmg, etc all purchasable with APs and enhancements unlocking several powerful at-will abilities. This would, in turn, move away from the gross itemization currently in the game. And it gives a chance to be competitive based on build and player skill and less about how many epic items you're wearing.

I ask of fellow forumites that instead of /signed or /not signed please put forth the effort and opinion in the matter.

/not signed

Monsters already drop like flies for non-geared characters. That is just using normal dropped items, feats & enhancements. There is absolutely no need to continue to empower the player character when the non-player character is so far behind and so easily dominated.

shameofthenation
02-14-2011, 12:35 PM
One of the undelying enjoyments in ddo is gearing up .

And poverty means poor , not got a million stashed in account

Rent a flat above a shop
Cut your hair and get a job
Smoke some **** and play some pool
Pretend you never went to school
But still you'll never get it right
'cause when you're laid in bed at night
watching roaches climb the wall
if you called your dad he could stop it all
yeah

my new cleric is called "jarvis cocker" but im afraid i will get banned for the name .
is the common people guild still around ?

GentlemanAndAScholar
02-14-2011, 01:59 PM
It was only OP if you were playing a relatively low-magic game.

DDO is not a low-magic game. It's not even a high-magic game. It's a gonzo-bonkers-insane-magic game!

There is no way for Vow to be competitive in DDO at all. There is simply too much gear it would have to account for with too many wildly varying effects.

Remember, in PnP you get about enough gold to buy something like one +7 weapon, one +6 armor, two or three +6 stat items and a couple of other oddments before you're fully spent, according to the DMG for level 20. It may even be less than that. Vow can compete with that, but not with the golfbag full of weapons for every situation, and Christmas Tree of epic and raid gear that defines our endgame.

You're right. I think this game is beyond hope in that sense. :(

I sometimes find myself baffled that people still ask for more powerful epic weapons. Perhaps those people aren't aware how overpowered (and awfully designed from the balance perspective) GS items/weaps are. IMO, GS items should be ML:17 and Weaps ML:18 but most people would probably disagree with that as well. BIG DMG NUMBERS!!!! We WANT BIGGER DMG NUMBERSSSS!!! :/

I really would like an alternate path that doesn't include items. Whether VoP or a different set of abilities. All I'm really asking is for an alternative to the rule, not asking to replace the rule.