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Tobril
02-12-2011, 04:01 PM
This may be overpowered in some cases and underwhelming in others.

Anyhoo…


Half Elf Dilettante Skill Training (Automatic /w 1st level of Half Elf, Feat, Passive)

Pick a skill that is a class skill for your dilettante choice. That skill is now considered a class skill for you.

waterboytkd
02-12-2011, 04:19 PM
Honestly, I feel like this should have be part of the original dilletante feat that helves automatically get, not as a seperate feat. That way, there is a little customization in how your helf dabbled in the other class (and it'd make it much easier for my monk to get Intimidate to useful levels :P)

Tobril
02-12-2011, 04:21 PM
Honestly, I feel like this should have be part of the original dilletante feat that helves automatically get, not as a seperate feat. That way, there is a little customization in how your helf dabbled in the other class (and it'd make it much easier for my monk to get Intimidate to useful levels :P)

That was what I meant, OP is now corrected to hopefully make my crazy thoughts a little more clear.

Crazyfruit
02-12-2011, 04:44 PM
That'd make the bard dilettante pretty awesome (for a certain type of player) instead of, well, :) The only people I know who take that are already bards.

Though I do think UMD should probably be left out. That rogue dilettante is already extremely tempting without that

waterboytkd
02-12-2011, 10:20 PM
As for UMD, yeah, you're probably right. That one should get left out.

Of course, if they left it on, I'm sure sales in Helf would spike... :P

wax_on_wax_off
02-12-2011, 10:28 PM
This may be overpowered in some cases and underwhelming in others.

Anyhoo…


Half Elf Dilettante Skill Training (Automatic /w 1st level of Half Elf, Feat, Passive)

Pick a skill that is a class skill for your dilettante choice. That skill is now considered a class skill for you.

/signed. I would love to have intimidate on my monk, cleric or favoured soul. Not sure what other uses this idea would have besides intimidate though.

Victor_1
02-12-2011, 10:40 PM
/signed


/signed. I would love to have intimidate on my monk, cleric or favoured soul. Not sure what other uses this idea would have besides intimidate though.

Haggle Barb! :p

I think it would help building utility build such as Axesinger style multiclass. That would saves tons of skill point.

Hercanic
02-12-2011, 11:24 PM
To simplify and balance, how about the skill is pre-selected? So, Bard Dilettante could get UMD, making it much more attractive, while Rogue would get something else.

Barbarian = Intimidate
Bard = UMD
Cleric = Diplomacy
Favored Soul = Jump
Fighter = Intimidate
Monk = Balance
Paladin = Intimidate
Ranger = Spot
Rogue = Tumble (or Haggle)
Sorcerer = Bluff
Wizard = Repair

Yeah, Sorc and Wiz are fairly lame, but it's between those or Concentration, which any class that needs it already has it.

Perhaps as another balancing idea, the skill could instead be considered a cross-class class skill, which means you must still spent 2 points for 1 skill raise, but you can raise the skill to the same max as a class skill (as if you had multiclassed).

andbr22
02-12-2011, 11:39 PM
And how do you see it? First level you choose dilly and open some skill.
After a while you change dilly with feat swap what hapens to skill? You prety much can't change skills. Maybe some skills enchantment (not like someone will ever choose those anyway), and do we realy need to improve h-elve further...

Faelyndel
02-12-2011, 11:46 PM
Opening up a skill to a dilettante sounds like a really interesting idea and fits mechanically (within certain perameters, such as the aforementioned no UMD) and thematically. It might be easiest to implement as a preset Class X unlocks Skill Y like Hercanic suggested, however that would limit versatility, which is supposed to be one of the Half-Elves strong suits. Still better than the current system though, so it's something to consider.

I don't have enough experience, with half-elves or even with gameplay in general, to say whether the skills Hercanic proposed would be useful and balanced with the Dilettante abilities itself. But one suggestion I would have would be to have Perform as the skill for the Bard dilletante, rather than UMD, because UMD is such a powerful skill and anyone with a high enough Cha to unlock the Bard Dil could probably put that UMD to good use. Allowing players to access the Perform skill would allow them to improve the DC of the Fascinates provided by the Dilletante, giving them a reason to select the Bard Dil. As it stands, the Bard Dilletante is a bit weak, since the Fascinates have such a low DC they'll become irrelevant after a certain point and any other Dilletante that allows access to healing wands/scrolls has either a better spell selection, quicker progression or an extra bonus (ie +2 Cha modifier to saves from Paladin).

Hercanic
02-13-2011, 12:07 AM
Andbr22:
That's a pretty good point. If you were to swap your Dilettante feat at, say, level 10, and you had been investing in Balance, so it's at 13, you'd keep that but now could no longer increase the skill. Your new Dilettante feat would allow you to increase another skill instead.

If Dilettante provided the skill as a class skill, feat-swapping could be exploited to essentially increase your skill points, getting one skill up to 11 for 11 skill points, swapping to another skill and raising that to 11, giving you two skills at 11 when another race would be at 11 in one cross-class skill.

If Dilettante provided the skill as a cross-class class skill, the above expoit would not be possible. However, there is still an exploit, where you would take the Dilettante feat that gives you the skill you want, then at cap you swap to the Dilettante that gives the benefit you really want (for instance, taking Bard Dilettante to 19 for UMD, then swapping to Rogue for Sneak Attack damage).

If we can't change how the skill system works, then the only solution I foresee at this time would involve Enhancements, which you suggested. It'd be similar to racial skill enhancements.

waterboytkd
02-13-2011, 02:53 PM
If Dilettante provided the skill as a cross-class class skill, the above expoit would not be possible. However, there is still an exploit, where you would take the Dilettante feat that gives you the skill you want, then at cap you swap to the Dilettante that gives the benefit you really want (for instance, taking Bard Dilettante to 19 for UMD, then swapping to Rogue for Sneak Attack damage).

If we can't change how the skill system works, then the only solution I foresee at this time would involve Enhancements, which you suggested. It'd be similar to racial skill enhancements.

Keeping it cross class but allowing max ranks (23 at level 20) is probably a good idea. Also keeps the prereqs for the Improved Skill enhancements clean. However, I don't think it's worth worrying about the abuse with feat swapping. Skills are pretty bleh in this game anyways, with the exception of UMD (which is why I would just not have it an option), so it's not like you'll be breaking a character by doing it.

As for making it an assigned skill for the dilettante, that would make it easier to implement, but would really hurt the versatility of the idea. There would be a lot of class/dilettante combos that would be redundant. And a useless perk isn't a perk at all.

Musouka
02-13-2011, 09:00 PM
To simplify and balance, how about the skill is pre-selected? So, Bard Dilettante could get UMD, making it much more attractive, while Rogue would get something else.


I don't know why you'd make Bard Dilly get UMD, when they should very much get Perform to improve on their clicky.