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View Full Version : Fix Dungeon Scaling or get rid of it



Cyr
01-25-2011, 03:27 PM
Dungeon Scaling is the single worst change to this game in it's history (including DA).

This is due to it's game play altering design that not only makes solo play more achievable, but actually easier in many cases then grouping.

This is bad for the game.

By creating a disincentive to group the game starts losing out on one of the major reasons why MMO's can keep people playing longer then the old console games...social interaction. MMO's are only as strong as their communities and sub-communities. DDO has traditionally had a strong community based upon it's original game design that encouraged grouping. This forced people to play with other players and make friends along the way. This also helps a companies bottom line with increased renewal rates. Players who feel a tie to other players in game stay with the game longer.

Turbine changed this dynamic with dungeon scaling. Instead of making solo play a little easier then it was before while still maintaining a clear and strong advantage to grouping at all level ranges the system instead created a reason not to take along someone.

As it stands dungeon scaling has one huge flaw and a few smaller flaws.

The huge flaw is the extent of scaling that occurs. This flaw is a flaw of magnitude. Somewhere along the way Turbine made dungeon scaling scaled to new players with bad gear and bad build. By setting the bar so low for what solo play was scaled for it created the uphill climb required to justify adding people to your party steeper. This means that the quality of play/build expected to make another person in the party better then running without that person goes up. This is in stark contrast to the pre-DA system where unless a quest had a specific mechanic that a player could screw up for the whole party there was no real reason not to have more people in the party. So due to the extent of scaling in dungeon scaling the bar to make another party member valuable goes up.

As the main flaw with dungeon scaling is one of magnitude it's fix is simple. Scale the magnitude of dungeon scaling dramatically downward. It should be a no brainer for a new player or a veteran to get another person in the party.

The secondary flaws of dungeon scaling have to do with implementation that would mostly be solved by a dramatic reduction in the scaling factor as such I will not mention them here beyond the brief note that class based scaling is inherently flawed due to the dramatically different builds in DDO and certain gear differentiations between builds of the same class.

bobbryan2
01-25-2011, 03:30 PM
So.. ignore me

jwdaniels
01-25-2011, 03:35 PM
And so you are ignored...

Phidius
01-25-2011, 03:37 PM
I agree with your assessment of the impact Dungeon Scaling has had on my motivation to group for non-raid activities.

I prefer to be the one to set the difficulty of the quest, rather than the game trying to figure out what level of challenge I can handle. Now that we have the "Casual" setting, what do we gain from Dungeon Scaling other than creating an incentive to not group?

Lorien_the_First_One
01-25-2011, 03:46 PM
I used to group 100% of the time while levelling. I didn't like soloing, seemed against the MMO spirit.

While I still do group at times for company, I frequently solo while levelling now because its easier to solo a quest than do it in a group. Also, with the advent of the 10% bonus for no deaths, someone else's mistake won't cost me 10%. In a group you have to assume a death so you work harder for less xp. Basically you are stupid to group now.

FastTaco
01-25-2011, 03:47 PM
One example is gianthold, out there solo they hit for 5-10 points. With a full party they are hitting for 20-30 points. Stupidly simple solo but with a full party added it requires many players to need teamwork, while vets will still not be challenged zerging apart from each other.

Hokiewa
01-25-2011, 03:51 PM
I used to group 100% of the time while levelling. I didn't like soloing, seemed against the MMO spirit.

While I still do group at times for company, I frequently solo while levelling now because its easier to solo a quest than do it in a group. Also, with the advent of the 10% bonus for no deaths, someone else's mistake won't cost me 10%. In a group you have to assume a death so you work harder for less xp. Basically you are stupid to group now.

Ironically, I did the reverse for the longest time. Back when the cap was 16, I would solo to 10 then group with guildies. Now....it's so cake, I'd rather group with a bunch of new players just in the off chance something exciting might happen...lol...

Krag
01-25-2011, 04:32 PM
I used to group 100% of the time while levelling. I didn't like soloing, seemed against the MMO spirit.

While I still do group at times for company, I frequently solo while levelling now because its easier to solo a quest than do it in a group. Also, with the advent of the 10% bonus for no deaths, someone else's mistake won't cost me 10%. In a group you have to assume a death so you work harder for less xp. Basically you are stupid to group now.

Main culprit colored. Make 10% bonus/penalty individual.

NXPlasmid
01-25-2011, 04:38 PM
Dungeon Scaling is the single worst change to this game in it's history (including DA).

This is due to it's game play altering design that not only makes solo play more achievable, but actually easier in many cases then grouping.

This is bad for the game.


Hey! this should be my post, well actually you are wrong. Soloing is the least efficient slowest way to complete a quest. Every additional good player reduces the total time and effort to get done. Deemphasis on grouping is a problem with dungeon scaling, with that I agree... T

Trillea
01-25-2011, 04:48 PM
Main culprit colored. Make 10% bonus/penalty individual.

/signed x1000!

Kriogen
01-25-2011, 04:50 PM
...
This is bad for the game.
...
No it is not.

I'm not saying dungeon scaling is perfect, but it's good for a game. It 'sells' more accounts, it makes game more accesible for not so perfect players or those that have frequent RL interupts and so on. Pre-DS this game was near death.

People that want to group will group. Those that do not want will not. And if they cant play game because of that, they will leave. If they leave, no money for Turbine. No money, no DDO. MMOs run on money.

doubledge
01-25-2011, 04:54 PM
Main culprit colored. Make 10% bonus/penalty individual.

/signed

signedsignedsignedsignedsignedsignedsignedsigned

Xezno
01-25-2011, 04:59 PM
Scaling is a nice mechanic for quests lover than level 5, so the new people dont get scared off. After level 5 they should take away dungeon scaling though. I even think they should include an xp bonus for completing a quest with more than one member - something like 5% per member for a total of 25% with a full party. That way the old vet players would be encouraged to fill their parties even with puggers. Also the no death bonus is just silly - make it individual atleast.

I think that new people are more disappointed if they cant find a group than if they get killed a few times trying to solo a quest.

redraider
01-25-2011, 05:08 PM
/not signed. I have no issue at all with DS. Your right, DS make quests too easy to solo on your 4 time TR Kensai/Monk uber toon. Think of the new players which are DDO long term lifeblood.

For us vets, simply run every quest elite - solo or in grp though lvl 15. Try it, it works and many are still challenges. You can get a first TR to 15 without ever farming and 3000 favor is a nice thing to see.

DA needs some work as the harried feature always has sucked.

Zirun
01-25-2011, 05:19 PM
As a primarily solo player, I like Dungeon Scaling, obviously. It's nice to not have to twink my characters, min/max, or otherwise do as much as possible just to do quests on Normal or Hard. I think, without twinking or min/maxing, the difficulty of the quests is fairly appropriate.

From what I've played, most of the low-level quests can be done solo by just about any character that can swing a stick, and I think it should be that way. In the mid-level quests, things start to get a lot more difficult. I found myself needing to take a hireling into a quest just to do it one-below on Normal, and would struggle through some higher level quests on Casual, because some of the monsters (beholders especially, although mummies are pretty brutal too) or other features of higher level quests (traps that I could actually fail reflex saves on, instant death spells, etc.) made it so that I couldn't solo without having either a billion death ward/restoration clickies/pots on hand or a divine hireling to back me up and make sure I didn't get negative leveled or disintegrated into oblivion. Now, I wasn't playing a caster (that was a monk), and I haven't gotten a divine caster to a high level (and I was wholly unimpressed by the supposed auto-win button that is Wall of Fire :P), so I imagine it might be a little different with Blade Barrier or something like that.

I don't think nerfing solo players in order to force others to group is an appropriate way to go. There should either be more low-mid level quests that are extremely difficult solo (like a level 6 version of Church and the Cult, vampire included), or monsters should be buffed (but NOT in HP, AC, attack, or anything like that, I'm talking higher reflex save + evasion kind of thing) to make soloing past the low levels more challenging for casters, since, unless I'm mistaken, melee characters are already in pretty tough when it comes to soloing mid-late levels.

The game's already hard enough when I take my Rogue 3/Monk 1 quarterstaff-wielder through the Catacombs and die once in the Crypt of Gerard Dryden and almost die to Arkasic Dryden on Normal. If it gets any harder, it would be basically unsoloable except for casters past the first couple of levels, but would simply adding more HP to monsters really make it harder for them when they can just BB and run around?

Adding larger variety to monsters in low-level quests, adding more boss fights a la Church and the Cult, or making it tougher for casters to one-spell their way through quests would make the game a lot more palatable to a wider variety of people than simply making everything that exists already stronger.

Kind of all over the place with this post... hope my point doesn't get lost in a jumble of incoherent rambling, lol.

Cathalo
01-25-2011, 05:26 PM
Dungeon Scaling is the single worst change to this game in it's history (including DA).

This is due to it's game play altering design that not only makes solo play more achievable, but actually easier in many cases then grouping.

This is bad for the game.

By creating a disincentive to group the game starts losing out on one of the major reasons why MMO's can keep people playing longer then the old console games...social interaction. MMO's are only as strong as their communities and sub-communities. DDO has traditionally had a strong community based upon it's original game design that encouraged grouping. This forced people to play with other players and make friends along the way. This also helps a companies bottom line with increased renewal rates. Players who feel a tie to other players in game stay with the game longer.

Turbine changed this dynamic with dungeon scaling. Instead of making solo play a little easier then it was before while still maintaining a clear and strong advantage to grouping at all level ranges the system instead created a reason not to take along someone.

As it stands dungeon scaling has one huge flaw and a few smaller flaws.

The huge flaw is the extent of scaling that occurs. This flaw is a flaw of magnitude. Somewhere along the way Turbine made dungeon scaling scaled to new players with bad gear and bad build. By setting the bar so low for what solo play was scaled for it created the uphill climb required to justify adding people to your party steeper. This means that the quality of play/build expected to make another person in the party better then running without that person goes up. This is in stark contrast to the pre-DA system where unless a quest had a specific mechanic that a player could screw up for the whole party there was no real reason not to have more people in the party. So due to the extent of scaling in dungeon scaling the bar to make another party member valuable goes up.

As the main flaw with dungeon scaling is one of magnitude it's fix is simple. Scale the magnitude of dungeon scaling dramatically downward. It should be a no brainer for a new player or a veteran to get another person in the party.

The secondary flaws of dungeon scaling have to do with implementation that would mostly be solved by a dramatic reduction in the scaling factor as such I will not mention them here beyond the brief note that class based scaling is inherently flawed due to the dramatically different builds in DDO and certain gear differentiations between builds of the same class.

I prefer soloing for a few basic reasons.

1. It allows me to run a quest on my own terms. If I have to go afk for 15 minutes in order to tend to wife or child it won't ruin someone elses day (or in the case of your average DDOer, someones life).

2. It allows me to log in and immediately start playing the game. On some days I may only have 15 to 30 minutes to actually sit down and play the game, looking for group on specific quests (especially ones that arent geared for fast xp or loot farming) can be extremely challening to do in that time frame.

3. I hate it when people zerg. Soloing allows me to play a quest at my own pace without ****ing anyone else off.

4. I play permadeath on two of my main characters right now so that tends to limit the people that are available to group with me. As such, I never pug with those characters.

In recent years I have become more fond of soloing than I use to be in the early stages of my gaming career, mostly because real life prevents me from grouping more often than not. Its not that I do not enjoy grouping or that im against it, im not and never have been. But I probably spend around 85% of my time soloing, and if soloing was not a valid or viable method of play I would probably not be playing at all.

Phidius
01-25-2011, 05:38 PM
...People that want to group will group. Those that do not want will not...

And some people who want to group will decide to not group because they know it will just make the quest harder.


As a primarily solo player, I like Dungeon Scaling, obviously. It's nice to not have to twink my characters, min/max, or otherwise do as much as possible just to do quests on Normal or Hard. I think, without twinking or min/maxing, the difficulty of the quests is fairly appropriate.

From what I've played, most of the low-level quests can be done solo by just about any character that can swing a stick, and I think it should be that way. In the mid-level quests, things start to get a lot more difficult...

Ah, the old bait-and-switch... not my preference, but I guess it's used so much because it works.

I still would rather that the game lets me choose my difficulty level rather than try to deduce what I can handle... I don't have a lot of faith in its accuracy.

Phidius
01-25-2011, 05:47 PM
I prefer soloing for a few basic reasons...

The OP isn't against soloing, but rather against the way that Turbine made it easier to solo.


...Turbine changed this dynamic with dungeon scaling. Instead of making solo play a little easier then it was before while still maintaining a clear and strong advantage to grouping at all level ranges the system instead created a reason not to take along someone...

It's possible to make a game solo-friendly without making it group-unfriendly. Here's a couple of things they did right.

1. Casual difficulty setting
2. Hirelings

All they gotta do is remove the Dungeon Scaling, and they're golden (IMHO).

Don't get me started on the bugs, Dungeon Alert, and grinding...

Impaqt
01-25-2011, 05:53 PM
So people dont like to group because its too hard?

Sounds like its working fine.

Getting rid of dungeon scaling wont magically make people better players.

Narmolanya
01-25-2011, 06:15 PM
I have to agree with what others have said, the 10% loss to the whole party is the factor killing PUGs. It's not really that much harder to run a full party because of scaling. When I can solo the quest without death why would I risk losing 10% taking a chance on someone I don't know?

Before the penalty came to be I would solo about 40% of the time, even when we had the severe individual death penalty. Now I solo more like 80% because I just want to get it done and not lose out on any xp.

In believe Turbine needs to revisit some of the changes made over the last couple years as I don't believe they are having the effect the anticipated. I think the 10% group penalty was put in to encourage players to work together and help each other. The individual death penalty was removed to have dieing not be so harsh. In the end all it has done is kill PUGs.

Emili
01-25-2011, 08:03 PM
So people dont like to group because its too hard?

Sounds like its working fine.

Getting rid of dungeon scaling wont magically make people better players.

Or so tell why?

Headstrongh in my guild ... ...

Had a benchmark for character build - "Kolbold's New Ringleader". His benchmark - every new character he rolled ... at level three run it on elite and should he beat that ogre and complete = the character good enough to keep, If not = Reroll... a test of his playstyle early on the character but assured him less disappointment latter. His second benchmark lay at level 8 Threnal east part one ... elite alone.

Now then, I used to assume he crazy... I never had any issue with the habor quests nor threnals before DS and I had often made mistakes in builds in the past but played my character around such...

... and then it happened, I decided to TR my main and ended up pretty much soloing the Habor to regain the favour am used to.

I was so excited about TR'ing, God to replay those quests again I was looking to recapture some of the struggle and found myself disappointed.

I.E. I was in "Kolbold's New Ringleader" a level 3 fighter ... alone, all I had was a crummy +1 Khopesh and some Krothos gear. As I cleared the area seemed mundane. I should have been clued by that but everyone knows kolbolds are just well kolbolds. I was prepping for that ogre, my blood pumping, anxiety, nervous... as I stood in front of that last door swinging my weapon before I got near it. All of a sudden *SMASH!* he come crashing thru and into my weapon "Crit for 71" he lay dead and I not a scratch throughout the whole bloody quest.

Speak about disenchantment and anti-climactic. Get off me, bloody roll over and go to sleep already... There is no excitement in DDO in low and mid levels at all, There are no challenges and no discoveries,

What's worse? The new-players start reaching upper level quests, raids, epics... and then they find out they're not the build they thought they were nor any idea how to play within the team environment... they solo'd throughout all these bloody low and mid level quests and never even learned how to use hotbars, certain movements or even where their build was undergeared or weak... they had no challenge either, and now we tell them they must learn the game at levels 17–20 where such exist.

I know Milton said in the past we mainly learned our game at the various caps ... yes but not entirely... we learned enough about strategy, teamwork, and the differences in various mob, quests at low level.

People ask me why I do not TR again and to be honest, I cringe, why would anyone care to bore the **** out of themselves for a few weeks?

Want my real opinion ... I look at quests I used to love... Swiped Signet, Tears, Threnal East, XC, Von 3 all went to pot, Turbine RUINED all those low/mid level quests I once loved are no bloody challenges in them any more. They are no fun at all.

Solo should not be only an option ... but it should be a challenge.

Kriogen
01-26-2011, 04:42 AM
And some people who want to group will decide to not group because they know it will just make the quest harder.
...
Yes, group is harder then solo. But this has nothing to do with dungeon scaling.

Group is harder then solo because others can make mistakes. More people in group, higher chance of someone making that fatal mistake.

A group that works as a team is another story. But thats as rare as Bloodstone.

Devs can "fix" drop rate of Bloodstone, but can do nothing about good teams.


...
What's worse? The new-players start reaching upper level quests, raids, epics... and then they find out they're not the build they thought they were nor any idea how to play within the team environment... they solo'd throughout all these bloody low and mid level quests and never even learned how to use hotbars, certain movements or even where their build was undergeared or weak... they had no challenge either, and now we tell them they must learn the game at levels 17–20 where such exist.
You can do that in a group, go through lvl 1-20, always grouping and never learn anything. It's easier to do that in a group then solo. If you solo, even with DS, you must do atleast something right. If nothing else you don't type "share plz" (no response if you are alone :p ), you atlest know where quest is.

"I was so excited about TR'ing, God to replay those quests again I was looking to recapture some of the struggle and found myself disappointed."
You can not "recapture some of the struggles" with TR. You are too good. You have TR char, twink and whats the most important, you know those quests.

On Elite there is next to zero dungeon scaling. Add one hireling, park it at start and it's zero scaling. If you say that that Elite run was easy, then it was not because of DS, but because of you. You are too powerful for that quest. And if you where on Normal, then do it on Elite.


Getting rid of dungeon scaling wont magically make people better players.
Correct.

Postumus
01-26-2011, 04:55 AM
Basically you are stupid to group now.

No.


You will always be able to run a quest more quickly and thoroughly (ransack, conquest, ingenious, etc bonuses) with a good group than you can by yourself. A group of players can split and cover two or three times as much ground as one player.


Which begs the question, is the 10% death penalty really that big a deal if you can farm a quest in half the time it would take if you soloed? I don't think it is.

Postumus
01-26-2011, 04:57 AM
Main culprit colored. Make 10% bonus/penalty individual.

I think 10% is barely noticeable. Make dying a 50% individual penalty.

pHo3nix
01-26-2011, 04:59 AM
No.


You will always be able to run a quest more quickly and thoroughly (ransack, conquest, ingenious, etc bonuses) with a good group than you can by yourself. A group of players can split and cover two or three times as much ground as one player.



Yes, with a GOOD group, which basically excludes almost every pug; so you group with people that you know and are good :)

The problem of dungeon scaling is it disincentives pugs, not grouping in general..

Therilith
01-26-2011, 05:03 AM
I agree completely.

Now that they've added casual there's really no reason not to get rid of dungeon scaling completely.

Postumus
01-26-2011, 05:14 AM
I was so excited about TR'ing, God to replay those quests again I was looking to recapture some of the struggle and found myself disappointed.

I.E. I was in "Kolbold's New Ringleader" a level 3 fighter ... alone, all I had was a crummy +1 Khopesh and some Krothos gear. As I cleared the area seemed mundane. I should have been clued by that but everyone knows kolbolds are just well kolbolds. I was prepping for that ogre, my blood pumping, anxiety, nervous... as I stood in front of that last door swinging my weapon before I got near it. All of a sudden *SMASH!* he come crashing thru and into my weapon "Crit for 71" he lay dead and I not a scratch throughout the whole bloody quest.



3rd level fighter with Korthos gear didn't get hit once the entire quest? Wow that set the B S alarms wailing.


Soloing at level is a joke. Especially when soloing with a health battery (pocket cleric) constantly boosting your red bar.

Krag
01-26-2011, 05:15 AM
I think 10% is barely noticeable. Make dying a 50% individual penalty.

10% is barely noticeable on your first life which is fine. Just because a player is new to the game and makes mistakes does not mean he deserves only half of the exp for his efforts.

It's 2-nd+ TR where the 10% bonus matters. When you run zerg LotD or Monastery 8 times on normal to squeeze every last bit of exp from the quest you don't want to get punished for some axer-style barbarian exploring traps with his butt. Bad enough that you take penalties for extreme repetition.

pHo3nix
01-26-2011, 05:17 AM
3rd level fighter with Korthos gear didn't get hit once the entire quest? Wow that set the B S alarms wailing.


Soloing at level is a joke. Especially when soloing with a health battery (pocket cleric) constantly boosting your red bar.

It's a joke cause of dungeon scaling..and on a TR it's not a good idea to solo quests above your level, cause you wouldn't get enough xp at end game and you would end up farming slayers..if they at least put some incentive in doing quests above your level it would bring some challenge.

Postumus
01-26-2011, 05:22 AM
Yes, with a GOOD group, which basically excludes almost every pug; so you group with people that you know and are good :)

The problem of dungeon scaling is it disincentives pugs, not grouping in general..


Well I have to disagree again. Some PUGs (maybe 10-15%) are just amazing with one or two superlative players who more than compensate for the shortcomings of the others. Most PUGs are average, but IMO hardly horrible - and if the majority of the people are average or at least competent players, then the PUGs still complete quests much faster than soloing.

Of course sometimes (10-15% of the time) you get the PUG like I had last night where a lvl 4, two lvl 3s, and a lvl 2 (I was lvl 5) thought they could handle Irestone on hard. I had my doubts. My doubts were confirmed.

Postumus
01-26-2011, 05:27 AM
It's a joke cause of dungeon scaling..and on a TR it's not a good idea to solo quests above your level, cause you wouldn't get enough xp at end game and you would end up farming slayers..if they at least put some incentive in doing quests above your level it would bring some challenge.


So just solo everything on elite - at level (i.e your lvl 5, run a 3rd lvl on elite), that pretty much negates the dungeon scaling doesn't it?


But I don't think farming xps and challenge are very compatible since it seems most xp grinders don't want any speed bumps between them and their xp/min.

Dinglebarry
01-26-2011, 05:39 AM
Trying to read between the lines, if you feel the problem is that players are not grouping (also due to the the 10% loss).

Why not encourage grouping by giving a bonus to XP if you are in a full(er) group?

For example:
+0 % 1 person
+0 % 2 people
+2 % 3 people
+4 % 4 people
+6 % 5 people
+8 % 6 people

Krag
01-26-2011, 05:41 AM
But I don't think farming xps and challenge are very compatible since it seems most xp grinders don't want any speed bumps between them and their xp/min.

100% correct. Where there is challenge exp/time ratio tends to sink terrybly low.

sirgog
01-26-2011, 06:06 AM
Hey! this should be my post, well actually you are wrong. Soloing is the least efficient slowest way to complete a quest. Every additional good player reduces the total time and effort to get done. Deemphasis on grouping is a problem with dungeon scaling, with that I agree... T

Depends upon the quest.

Most Gianthold walkups (the ones full of low Will save humanoids, like Cabal) are much faster solo. Run until orange alert, jump, turn, Mass Suggestion, keep running. In a PUG group, you won't survive the damage those mobs do. Even good players slow you down there.

Not to mention the old 'AFK 3 min'.

I'm levelling a 36 point build at the moment. Prior to the Vale, Archmage Chain Missiles one-shot most mobs on Normal difficulty solo (the mobs I don't want to charm, at least). Because of scaling and the 10% penalty for accepting someone that dies, grouping at those levels was really disruptive.

In the Vale I've grouped except for Coalessence Chamber, but it's been close to the first time.

pHo3nix
01-26-2011, 06:06 AM
Well I have to disagree again. Some PUGs (maybe 10-15%) are just amazing with one or two superlative players who more than compensate for the shortcomings of the others. Most PUGs are average, but IMO hardly horrible - and if the majority of the people are average or at least competent players, then the PUGs still complete quests much faster than soloing.

Of course sometimes (10-15% of the time) you get the PUG like I had last night where a lvl 4, two lvl 3s, and a lvl 2 (I was lvl 5) thought they could handle Irestone on hard. I had my doubts. My doubts were confirmed.

I said almost every pug, not all of them..and more often than not they start complaining about how fast you're going, about the orange/red DA and then they start dieing..in the rare occasion you find out 5 competent people you can do quests a lot faster, but it's the exception to the rule..

And yes, for a tr it is the xp/min ratio that counts, but if you get 2x or 3x xp for doing a quest above your level that represents a challenge, the xp/min ratio would be fine anyway and you would also have some fun :)

sirgog
01-26-2011, 06:14 AM
And yes, for a tr it is the xp/min ratio that counts, but if you get 2x or 3x xp for doing a quest above your level that represents a challenge, the xp/min ratio would be fine anyway and you would also have some fun :)

/signed.

Running Madstone on Hard or Elite on totally ungeared, freshly rolled 13-16s is fun, especially if some are experimental builds.

Running Madstone Elite on geared-to-the-max, min-maxxed 17th level triple-TRed toons is boring grind.

Running Madstone Elite on massively geared multi-TR'ed level 12s would be a blast, but the price you pay for having that fun is getting to level 19 and having nothing except slayers left for XP. Grinding Vale slayers is bad enough, adding the Subterrane and Battlefield into that is a real recipe to make you want to /wrists.

SiliconShadow
01-26-2011, 06:21 AM
First off you will now sneer at me... Leave dungeon scaling as it is.

BUT

Scale the experience gained for having a party as well, this is what I would like to see:

Leave the group exp penalty for a death as it is!

-10% for everyone in the party (-5% for a hireling) under 4 players and +10% over 4 players (double for raids)

Party/raid:
1 player = -15% (1~2 people for raid)
2 players = -10% (3~4 people for a raid)
3 players = -5% (5~6 people for a raid)
4 players = +/-0% (7~8 people for a raid)
5 players = +10% (9~10 people for a raid)
6 players = +20% (11~12 people for a raid)

Hirelings count as a half player so:
1 ~ 4 players -5% per hireling
5 players ~ +/-0% for filling the last slot with a hireling

Lleren
01-26-2011, 06:24 AM
I used to group 100% of the time while levelling. I didn't like soloing, seemed against the MMO spirit.

While I still do group at times for company, I frequently solo while levelling now because its easier to solo a quest than do it in a group. Also, with the advent of the 10% bonus for no deaths, someone else's mistake won't cost me 10%. In a group you have to assume a death so you work harder for less xp. Basically you are stupid to group now.

Easier while solo, and 10% exp bonus for no deaths groupwide is a Strong one two punch combination.

Encourages me to not to open up the quests I am running to puggles.

I would encourage bonus experience for extra group members to help offset this effect. with a large bonus for a full party of players, and a smaller bonus for a group of 3 with hirelings ;)


Trying to read between the lines, if you feel the problem is that players are not grouping (also due to the the 10% loss).

Why not encourage grouping by giving a bonus to XP if you are in a full(er) group?

For example:
+0 % 1 person
+0 % 2 people
+2 % 3 people
+4 % 4 people
+6 % 5 people
+8 % 6 people

I see someone already had this idea. I will say that these numbers would not be high enough to encourage me to group with puggles.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-26-2011, 06:33 AM
No.


You will always be able to run a quest more quickly and thoroughly (ransack, conquest, ingenious, etc bonuses) with a good group than you can by yourself. A group of players can split and cover two or three times as much ground as one player.


Which begs the question, is the 10% death penalty really that big a deal if you can farm a quest in half the time it would take if you soloed? I don't think it is.

Hi, and welcome to the game.

After a year of experiencing the joy of grouping under DS I can say with certainty that the majorty of time I can farm low to mid level quest faster myself than with a group.

The 10% penalty is a big deal because you do lose it in at least half of the groups and the groups are not even 10% faster on average, they are slower.

Yes, there is the odd group that the split for quick completion works with, but there are few quests where the quest is not linear and half the time the other half the party dies and you have to go save them anyway.


3rd level fighter with Korthos gear didn't get hit once the entire quest? Wow that set the B S alarms wailing.


Soloing at level is a joke. Especially when soloing with a health battery (pocket cleric) constantly boosting your red bar.

First you argue there is no problem, now you point out the problem. I know you are new but you need to understand that soloing didn't used to be a joke, DS is the problem that makes it a joke. And of course we didn't have the overpowered twink Korthos gear then either.

Ungood
01-26-2011, 06:59 AM
I agree with most of what is said.

But I have a possible solution.

Give a +2% Exp Bonus for every player beyond the first in the group (to balance out the scaling) and not to give a solo player an exp boon. and an extra +2% exp if you have a full group. Thus a 5 person group gives +8% exp, but a 6 person group gives +12% exp.

Remove the 10% exp loss, and replace it would a -1% exp loss for every player that dies in the group, with a -4% exp loss for a party wipe (everyone dies) but this loss would be subtracted.

Thus: If you soloed, and died, you would loose 5% exp from the total of the dungeon. But if you were in a group of 6, and someone died, you still at +11% for the dungeon. Thus, even if everyone died (at one time or another -6% (-1% per player that died)with a -4% for a total group death) you would still be at +2% exp gain, just for having a full group.

If 3 people died in a 6 person group, you are still at 9% gain, so, it would make it so you are more willing to take a new player along, and be accepting of deaths in the group, because just having them there would give you a +1% exp, even if they died around every corner (assuming of course they don't get the whole party killed in the process).

Yes, I realize that a group of 5 with everyone dying would at -1%,for the dungeon, so it is not a perfect system, but it would be a step in the right direction.

And the exp gain would not apply to raids. Just have raids be a +12 for completing (flat) with a -1% per death (flat) no total wipe losses and things like that. While this could be applied to small groups, this would still show favoritism to the solo player again, as they would only loose -1% if they died, which means they get +11% no matter what. Which is exactly what is trying to be prevented.

But this is just my two bits.

knockcocker
01-26-2011, 08:09 AM
/signed.

Running Madstone on Hard or Elite on totally ungeared, freshly rolled 13-16s is fun, especially if some are experimental builds.

Running Madstone Elite on geared-to-the-max, min-maxxed 17th level triple-TRed toons is boring grind.

Running Madstone Elite on massively geared multi-TR'ed level 12s would be a blast, but the price you pay for having that fun is getting to level 19 and having nothing except slayers left for XP. Grinding Vale slayers is bad enough, adding the Subterrane and Battlefield into that is a real recipe to make you want to /wrists.

I kind of agree with this. With ~4.4 million XP required for TR2, it's a grind no matter what they do. I'm grateful
for DS as it makes that grind more tolerable. I'd be OK with tweaks to dungeon scaling if they also tweaked the
ridiculous XP requirements of TR2.

Palantyr
01-26-2011, 08:26 AM
If you enjoy grouping, the 10% loss from someone dieing is not a big deal. There is plenty of XP leftover without using pots on a 2nd TR that you don't need to ever get the 10%. My last 4.37m TR was only in the 2800s for favor, with IQ and Amrath barely touched. I grouped almost the whole time on that TR taking whoever wanted to join, used no pots, and frequently lost the 10% to someone's death. Did it take a bit longer, sure, a day or two. Everytime I hear the crying about the XP needed and loss, I have to wonder why are you still playing this game? Are you having fun still, or has it just become a bad habit you can't shake?

krud
01-26-2011, 08:30 AM
Or so tell why?

Headstrongh in my guild ... ...

Had a benchmark for character build - "Kolbold's New Ringleader". His benchmark - every new character he rolled ... at level three run it on elite and should he beat that ogre and complete = the character good enough to keep, If not = Reroll... a test of his playstyle early on the character but assured him less disappointment latter. His second benchmark lay at level 8 Threnal east part one ... elite alone.

but i thought there was little to no dungeon scaling on elite. Dungeons are supposed scale less on hard and even less on elite. At least that's what I remember when they released DS.

Removing scaling will not make better players. The only thing that'll make better players is simply time spent playing the game. It's what made us better, not some super difficult encounter (that people usually figure out how to beat by taking advantage of poor AI).

btw - i don't care about the loss of xp if someone dies. I TR or reroll to get away from the boring upper level loot grind, not to get right back into it again.

Maybe if there were a way to encourage TRs to run the lesser run content (or quests they skipped before) then maybe it wouldn't seem like such a boring grind running the same old stuff over and over again. A TR xp bonus for quests they never did their first time around, or maybe give an XP bonus to a character for attaining very high favor. Might encourage people to run more varied content again.

patang01
01-26-2011, 08:45 AM
Nothing stops anyone from grouping up. I personally don't solo because it's 'easier' with or without a group; I do it because I need to run the quest and I don't have time to wait for a whole group to form.

The scaling is irrelevant. Soloing a new invasion (example) always takes longer than with a whole group (provided everyone are similarly geared and know what they're doing). Yet I solo it because I know that I will be able to complete it in shorter time than waiting for a whole group even thought I could probably save some time in the overall run.

There's also another reason to group up; greater chance to pull named loot with a chance that it'll be up for roll. I rather group a prey run than solo it, even though I can do both with ease. Now when you see the rune up front there's a much greater chance to be able to trade for the one you want.

Dartwick
01-26-2011, 08:47 AM
Scaling should be based on the number toons the number of hirelings and their levels - NOTHING ELSE.

EDIT:
There should be no scaling at all of elite.
And casual - who cares just make it super easy with the crappy end rewards.

Frotz
01-26-2011, 09:06 AM
One annoying thing about dungeon scaling is that you can't know beforehand how difficult a dungeon will be in a full party by soloing it yourself. Just running it on a higher difficulty isn't the same because more than just scaling changes as well. I'm not for forcing everyone to group to get anything done, but I would agree soloing can leave one unprepared for grouping, and thus also reluctant to group if one is aware of this potential deficiency. The risk/reward for grouping (and thus relatively for soloing) does seem off. Right now it seems like the reasons to group are you're sure it'll go quicker, you don't care if it's a waste of time because you just like grouping, or you can't solo it. Although maybe I've just been scarred by some of the more dismal PUG failures or in general more risk-adverse. :)

Reducing or eliminating scaling wouldn't necessarily make everyone more capable, but I'd at least be able to tell if I were suffciently capable myself given the ability to scout-out what the unscaled quest would actually be like. Although without some additional reward, say treat it as a higher level quest for XP/loot purposes, I don't know that I'd be motivated to use a solo/duo w/o scaling option (don't take away my hireling either :) ).

Cyr
01-26-2011, 09:14 AM
Glad to see this got some discussion going couple of things since I had not looked at this post all night...

1) I am most certainly not against soloing. Having the game mechanics as discouraging group play instead of encouraging it is what I am against with the reasons stated pretty clearly in my original OP.

2) I see lots of discussion about the 10% xp penalty. That would be my number (3) on the list of worst changes to the game. I 100% agree that it also discourages group play and in combination with dungeon scaling creates an even stronger reason for people not to group.

3) Grouping does make certain quests easier and faster. However, those are generally ones that a split up and kill style is used. It is also important to note that in these cases any random pug has as much of a chance to be afk at the entrance or in someone's bag for most of the quest in the low to mid level range. Grouping is preferrable, but only with moderately known quantities ie guildies or other players you know. In a game with the expanded new player base that DDO has this is no longer the majority of the player base.

4) There are certainly game mechanics that still encourage grouping for sure. These include good named loot (not relevant in the vast majority of content below the cap), epic mode (where scaling if it happens is much less pronounced), and elite mode (where scaling from all data I have seen does still exist but to a much lesser degree then on normal). You will note that two of those points are really mostly relevant at end game and that elite mode is generally not favored for the xp/min ratios it rewards (ignoring grouping time and such).

5) patang01 has a very interesting post in thread. They state that scaling is irrelevent to their decision to solo a new invasion because time to find a group is what makes that decision for them. The time to find a competent group (they specify this) is indeed a strong barrier to grouping, however in the past most people at near end game bothered finding these groups because soloing was much harder and less rewarding xp/min. This also drove down time to create competent groups because more competent players were looking for groups since soloing was much less efficient. Basically the idea here is that dungeon scaling made completion time for soloing (and ease of doing so) drop dramatically and this then competes with the completion time for a group and the time it takes to form that group.

Finally, for those responding here (who have been with the game a while) I would like you to consider one thing before posting...

Do you solo more now then you did prior to dungeon scaling being implemented?

Emili
01-26-2011, 09:21 AM
On Elite there is next to zero dungeon scaling. Add one hireling, park it at start and it's zero scaling. If you say that that Elite run was easy, then it was not because of DS, but because of you. You are too powerful for that quest. And if you where on Normal, then do it on Elite.

It was elite (making it a level 4 quest) and on a level 2 character.


but i thought there was little to no dungeon scaling on elite. Dungeons are supposed scale less on hard and even less on elite. At least that's what I remember when they released DS.

They had already adjusted these quests and toned them all down before even adding DS ... All quest's mob had an adjustment prior to any dungeon scaling. Then add DS on top of it?

Today's characters are better geared, better built, more flexible and the quests were all tappered back as compensation for twf nerf, etc... the original design on those quests were challenging and the mob more hp. PC's were all 28 points and with but four enhancements, a +1 or 2 weapon and had you some element you were uber... people used to think an ogre formidable, or the kolbold caster in the low road a challenge for their level 1 or 2... and this carried all the way through-out the entire game. WW, the necromancer, threnal south, TS, Bam were all in many ways much like ToD ... the challenge matched your character. Consistency in DDO is something the dev's lost...



Finally, for those responding here (who have been with the game a while) I would like you to consider one thing before posting...

Do you solo more now then you did prior to dungeon scaling being implemented?

... Four years ago I saved up some pp and bought numerous potions a lowly level eight pure fighter and stepped into Von 3 elite - alone - was before silver flame necklaces, and even optic nerves all which served me a +5 threnal longsword, a hammer of pg and a anarchic ga... the quest took me some time as my most important weapon was strategy. Yes I solo'd from time to time but it was to take on a personal "challenge."

This is my TR's favour ...

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t92/bflat01/DDo/LatestEmiFavour.jpg

She is two quests from favour cap. I'd say 85% of it was done at level. Funny thing here is that out of the current 3600 favour she has I'd have to say little over 1000 of it was done in group (50-60% of those groups nothing more than duo) and not until the higher levels was a group actually desired to meet my goals...


DS is not "the reason" most people solo. No, most people solo because it's just that much quicker to get it done yourself... no LFM and waiting, no teaching someone new involved and no real heavy strategy is needed in 90% of the quests - which in the past it used to be... but DS is a "contributor" to solo. The quests had been dumbed down already, challenges removed, and even further watered by DS.

Kza
01-26-2011, 09:25 AM
I like dungeon scaling, Only thing i would like to add is better loot/xp on elite (that has no dungeon scaling) so it is more sense of doing harder runs if you have strength for it. (Last content with higher chanse of named drops on elite are perfect imho, i would like to throw in 1-2 nameds that only can drop in highest difficulty also).

pHo3nix
01-26-2011, 12:39 PM
The scaling is irrelevant. Soloing a new invasion (example) always takes longer than with a whole group (provided everyone are similarly geared and know what they're doing).



It's not only how people are geared that counts, but also how they play..and it also depends on what class are you playing with..on my fvs if i don't know the other people i usually avoid grouping in amrath, even on normal..if it's with guildies or people i know i got no problem running them on elite and healing cause they use their brains while playing (and if not at least they won't yell at me asking for heals if they do something stupid) :)

DS is bad: you have to wait for other people and they will probably make your life harder :)

fuzzy1guy
01-26-2011, 10:15 PM
For me DS really stands out in one quest... sins hard.

Solo: Run thru on with a caster that has moderate ac. Most likely wont die unless i space out. This is damm good loot/time/resources used!

Duo: Heck still no problem. A couple of toons with moderate ac and i can scroll heal right thru it with no worries. Still damm good loot/time/resources used.

Add a 3rd player: Ok.. these guys are starting to hurt. Need a few more buffs. Take it a little slower overall. Still pretty good loot/time/resources used. Just a little more challenge.

Make it a full 6 person party: OW! these guys are tearing the **** out of all of us. And holy hell those traps hurt bad! Fallback to being a buffbot more than anything. Loot/time/resources used is looking pretty sad... This isnt fun or profitable.. I don't wanna do this again.

Why the heck did i bring these other people along?

It would be different if the scale changed the loot maybe... 1 person. normal crud loot. 3 people. crud loot +1 6 people. crud loot +2!

Right now you're better off keeping the group as small as possible. Kinda aginst the spirit of dnd.

FlyingTurtle
01-27-2011, 12:09 AM
I think the basic agreement is that all quests should be soloable but grouping should have significant rewards given the additional cost of coordination and dealing with other party members. Right now grouping heavily penalizes the best players in the group.

There's a really easy fix. Remove the artificial penalties (dungeon scaling) and buff the PLAYER SELECTABLE solo/small group difficulty option (but not so much that it also becomes more desirable than grouping). This opens up player choice. Those who want to solo, play solo difficulty because they prefer that experience. Those who group, group because they prefer that experience, and neither side is relatively crippled by any artificial mechanic.

I'd say most of the players posting on the DDO forum are above average players. So many of them support removing DS. Listen to these guys turbine, they want to help out the community and have fun, but feel they're being penalized for doing so. Fix it before they get sick of it.

Postumus
01-27-2011, 01:23 AM
Hi, and welcome to the game.



Reported.

Postumus
01-27-2011, 01:44 AM
3) Grouping does make certain quests easier and faster. However, those are generally ones that a split up and kill style is used. It is also important to note that in these cases any random pug has as much of a chance to be afk at the entrance or in someone's bag for most of the quest in the low to mid level range. Grouping is preferrable, but only with moderately known quantities ie guildies or other players you know. In a game with the expanded new player base that DDO has this is no longer the majority of the player base.




Yes, depending on the quest and the group (or class if solo), grouping is MUCH faster than soloing.

Yes groups seem to take more breaks than when soloing, but if you all break together, or take breaks when others sell, etc, the actual amount of time spent in front of the screen earning xps is less.


I just ran the Delera's chain the other day with a fourth level sorc with one guildie and four random players (some of whom left and were replaced). We went through the chain three times, and in almost the same amount of time it would have taken me to solo it with my sorc once.


Even with the ONE 10% death penalty, I earned MORE than three times the experience in the same amount of time I would have earned had my sorc soloed it since 1) I wouldn't have got all the optionals and bonuses solo - specifically the traps, and 2) I ran the chain 3 times faster with the group than I could have solo.

FlyingTurtle
01-27-2011, 10:10 AM
I just ran the Delera's chain the other day with a fourth level sorc with one guildie and four random players (some of whom left and were replaced). We went through the chain three times, and in almost the same amount of time it would have taken me to solo it with my sorc once.


Delera's chain is average level 6-7, you're playing a level 4 Sorc, so you don't even have Fireball, of course you'd run it faster in a group, dungeon scaling or not.

Of course doing quests underlevel is better with a group. Anything that presents a challenge increases the incentive to group. It's basically the whole point we're getting at.

protokon
01-27-2011, 10:12 AM
Dungeon Alert is the single worst change to this game in it's history


Fixed the OP :D

knockcocker
01-27-2011, 12:47 PM
Of course doing quests underlevel is better with a group. Anything that presents a challenge increases the incentive to group. It's basically the whole point we're getting at.

I don't agree DS is entirely responsible for this though. Even without DS, TR toons with twink gear from Korthos,
Chronoscope etc. would blow through 'old' normal without an issue. It's really normal that we're talking about
(though H and E do scale). If you want more of a challenge tick H or E. We all seem to be mis-remembering
normal as something much tougher than it ever was. At lot of that perceived difficulty was down to spells like
curse and blindness being permanent, ability damage and level drain not 'wearing off' over time, RoE lasting 5
minutes etc.etc. Basically, a lot things were made less debilitating which are not directly related to dungeon scaling.
I realize spell durations and damage do scale but these were still nerf'ed outside of scaling.

What this discussion seems to be boiling down to is: Make it worthwhile to group. You can't do that by removing
DS without re-introducing the problem that DS was implemented to solve (new players quitting the game because
they couldn't finish quests without a group). Grouping could be incentivised without removing scaling. TR2 is
so onerous on XP that if they made acquiring it any less efficient then I'd be, essentially, done with that and
probably done with the game.

EDIT: completely forgot to mention guild buffs as well...

Falco_Easts
01-27-2011, 08:17 PM
Now that they've added casual there's really no reason not to get rid of dungeon scaling completely.

I know right, because people never want to solo run anything beyond casual right?
/sarcasm off

I fail to see what casual difficulty has to do wtih DS? Maybe I just need another coffee.

Keep DS but tone it back. It should not make it as easy as it does now. Start phasing it out at level 10 and gone altogther by 15.

FlyingTurtle
01-27-2011, 08:49 PM
I fail to see what casual difficulty has to do wtih DS? Maybe I just need another coffee.

It has to do with:


the problem that DS was implemented to solve (new players quitting the game because they couldn't finish quests without a group).

It is a real problem. Turbine needs customers.

DS = reduce difficulty because party is shortmanned and the average shortmanned party should still be allowed the option of a realistic odds of completion without having to wait for a full group.

Casual = reduce difficulty because player is new, less skilled, or undergeared, or is taking a break from 12 straight hours of studying, anything.

It's not so hard to combine the two. Currently both mechanics are borked (casual = way too little XP; DS = too much XP for a relatively much easier dungeon in terms of completion time). Taking the midpoint of these two allows one mechanic to serve both purposes: e.g., Let casual have something like 75% XP, and be noticeably easier than Normal, but only allow small groups to enter (so big groups don't just steamroller over the relatively easier quest). The idea is to allow for the XP/min for each difficulty level to be roughly comparable for the average player. This is game balance: for the player to be offered a range of feasible (thought not necessarily perfectly equally attractive) choices.

Zenako
01-27-2011, 09:08 PM
I and many others did extensive quantification of the effects of DS back when it first came out. Some of us argued long and hard to make sure that the effects on ELITE setting was minimal, and the developers for the most part listened.

Since ELITE was the benchmark for most dedicated solo players anyway, by leaving it almost untouched, that meant that those who could complete on ELITE while solo were still performing at those same benchmarks that they used to measure themselves by.

Scaling is large on Normal (perhaps even larger on Casual but not sure on that since those settings are so nerfed it hardly matters). While Solo on Normal, the mobs have about 50% of their normal HP, and their attacks are also nerfed by about a net 50% (combined lower to hit bonuses and lower damage dealth to lower their threat levels)

On Hard the reduction when solo was closer to 25-30% from full party strength, with reductions on both HP and offense/defense attributes.

On Elite there is almost no reduction, but some runs showed changes of perhaps 5% lower when solo than with full party. Also the definitition of a full party is sometimes taken as 4 and sometimes as 6, but once your group get 4 (or more) things should be smooth in any case.

DS does enable very part time / casual players to enter and experience many dungeons that they might otherwise be unable to beat. From a selling of DDO standpoint that is good. For players who crave the challenge (such as it is) run on ELITE settings. VIP can start right on ELITE now, so no need to waste time running a quest multiple times for favor anymore, if that was your driver.

Chai
01-28-2011, 06:25 AM
I dont see solo completing dungeons faster than a full group at the same normal and hard difficulty with the same gear and same knowledge level, so I have to disagree. I am not a big fan of dungeon scaling, but I dont believe its as bad for the game as the OP says it is.

I also like the fact that the "do it my way or else" crowd cant take grouping privy hostage with their blacklists and enforce their method of gaming on everyone else.

Dungeon Alert is the single worse thing that happened. Completely arbitrary game mechanics FTL.

Lleren
01-28-2011, 07:59 AM
I dont see solo completing dungeons faster than a full group at the same normal and hard difficulty with the same gear and same knowledge level, so I have to disagree. I am not a big fan of dungeon scaling, but I dont believe its as bad for the game as the OP says it is.

I also like the fact that the "do it my way or else" crowd cant take grouping privy hostage with their blacklists and enforce their method of gaming on everyone else.

Dungeon Alert is the single worse thing that happened. Completely arbitrary game mechanics FTL.

While I will agree that soloing is not faster then a good group...
Soloing Normal or Hard and even Elite is much faster then the average PuG, for me at least, even on my newest characters. Including all relevant time adders, such as breaks, and formation times. Often even without including the formation time and/or breaks. I tend to play melee though, perhaps someone who plays someone with a mana bar would have a different experience. Though with the power I hear about for them soloing, sounds like they can go even faster :)

Average PuG defined: as Me, a Hireling, and the first 4 joiners. I'm not waiting for, or expecting someone to play a healbot, so I tend to bring a Hireling. They don't mind.

DA also discourages Grouping.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-28-2011, 08:05 AM
Reported.

The new rules specifically said we may continue to say hi and welcome to welcome people to the game.

Only the phrase "Hi Welcome" was banned.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-28-2011, 08:09 AM
I dont see solo completing dungeons faster than a full group at the same normal and hard difficulty with the same gear and same knowledge level, so I have to disagree. I am not a big fan of dungeon scaling, but I dont believe its as bad for the game as the OP says it is.

You are correct, for a good group. I never hesitate to group with guildies because I know what I'm getting.

Most low level PUGS are...average... in abiity and knowledge. I used to really like being in that group with 5 new people, now it makes me grumpy. In my personal experience, more than half the cases they slow you don't, having more doesn't help, it hurts you.



Dungeon Alert is the single worse thing that happened. Completely arbitrary game mechanics FTL.

I agree with this. SOMETHING should have been done within D&D rules, but the DA response is just annoying and non-D&D like. That however is a different thread.

pHo3nix
01-28-2011, 08:11 AM
While I will agree that soloing is not faster then a good group...
Soloing Normal or Hard and even Elite is much faster then the average PuG, for me at least, even on my newest characters. Including all relevant time adders, such as breaks, and formation times. Often even without including the formation time and/or breaks. I tend to play melee though, perhaps someone who plays someone with a mana bar would have a different experience. Though with the power I hear about for them soloing, sounds like they can go even faster :)

Average PuG defined: as Me, a Hireling, and the first 4 joiners. I'm not waiting for, or expecting someone to play a healbot, so I tend to bring a Hireling. They don't mind.

DA also discourages Grouping.

I guess noone could disagree that soloing is not faster then a good group: the problem is you get a bad group 90% of the times, so soloing is faster 90% of the times :)

DA is terrible, and in quests where it's bugged ( like bastion of power) it's the worst thing ever..

Sarnind
01-28-2011, 08:14 AM
/not signed
I hate noob s and prefer going quest in solo or with one or two friends

Krag
01-28-2011, 09:20 AM
I guess noone could disagree that soloing is not faster then a good group: the problem is you get a bad group 90% of the times, so soloing is faster 90% of the times :)

DA is terrible, and in quests where it's bugged ( like bastion of power) it's the worst thing ever..

I suppose for the 10% of players DA makes soloing faster than grouping with the rest of the population.

Don't see a reason to complain here.

Cyr
01-28-2011, 09:37 AM
Fixed the OP :D

No that would be #2 for me.

Broldin
01-28-2011, 09:37 AM
Forced grouping is not necessarily good for the game. I have known many people who quit playing a given MMO once they reached the point where they couldn't progress without grouping. Not everyone has 3+ hours of uninterupted time to dedicate to playing on a regular basis. Many of these people, rightly, prefer not to group unless they know they can stay and play through to completion.

Grouping should be encouraged through rewards, not by punishing those who need/want to solo.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-28-2011, 09:40 AM
Forced grouping is not necessarily good for the game. I have known many people who quit playing a given MMO once they reached the point where they couldn't progress without grouping. Not everyone has 3+ hours of uninterupted time to dedicate to playing on a regular basis. Many of these people, rightly, prefer not to group unless they know they can stay and play through to completion.

Grouping should be encouraged through rewards, not by punishing those who need/want to solo.

The nice thing about this game is that you don't need 3+ uninterupted hours. Sure, you can run a 3 hr raid train through all the raids and a smattering of epics, but you don't need to do that.

No quest takes longer than an hour. Most quests are less.

Available time is simply not a reason to group or not group in this game.

Chai
01-28-2011, 09:41 AM
While I will agree that soloing is not faster then a good group...
Soloing Normal or Hard and even Elite is much faster then the average PuG, for me at least, even on my newest characters. Including all relevant time adders, such as breaks, and formation times. Often even without including the formation time and/or breaks. I tend to play melee though, perhaps someone who plays someone with a mana bar would have a different experience. Though with the power I hear about for them soloing, sounds like they can go even faster :)

Average PuG defined: as Me, a Hireling, and the first 4 joiners. I'm not waiting for, or expecting someone to play a healbot, so I tend to bring a Hireling. They don't mind.

DA also discourages Grouping.

Elite doesnt scale.

Unless you are running quests with 4 people who have no idea whatsoever, you should be able to run the quest faster in the group than solo, especially if those 4 people have relatively similar gear / quest knowledge you do.

Unreliable
01-28-2011, 09:44 AM
I now find it that having 6 people in a quest now makes it 1/6 as slow instead of 6x quicker :P I solo all my chars to 20 without ever trying to join a group, just because its quicker and easier, and more reliable exp. The few times I have invited PuG's to my groups are when they walk in, die in less then 3 minutes, and then shout ''afk for a few'' and sit there afk for the rest of the quest while contributing to the DS system but not doing anything, oh and not to mention they lost 10 percent of my exp. So yeah, soloing all the way :P.

Cyr
01-28-2011, 09:46 AM
Forced grouping is not necessarily good for the game. I have known many people who quit playing a given MMO once they reached the point where they couldn't progress without grouping. Not everyone has 3+ hours of uninterupted time to dedicate to playing on a regular basis. Many of these people, rightly, prefer not to group unless they know they can stay and play through to completion.

Grouping should be encouraged through rewards, not by punishing those who need/want to solo.

a) Casual setting enabled solo play for anyone (without DS). It is an easier setting with lesser rewards exactly what you state in the last line of your post that you desire.

b) I'm not proposing forced grouping. I'm proposing that the incentives to group be larger then the incentives to solo/short man.

c) I can't tell you the number of times I have jumped on for 30 minutes and run a few quests. At end game I've ran more then a few epics in 3+ hours. The time requirement to group in DDO is not nearly as large as that in some other games. You don't need to be on for 3+ hours in DDO to run a quest in a group.

Kza
01-28-2011, 09:48 AM
I like it mucho, makes xping become faster. Can always xp smooth and easy on any gimped toon on normal even if hard find a group. Thats good in my book. make Elite and even hard give a tad better base xp so you ave bigger incentive to group that way wo ruining solo play is my idea of "cure". But i like it as it is.

Dendrix
01-28-2011, 09:49 AM
Scaling should be based on the number toons the number of hirelings and their levels - NOTHING ELSE.

That is a stupid suggestion.

Some classes are much better than others at soloing (vs most dungeons). Rogues are particularly BAD at soloing, as without someone to get aggro they lose sneak attack which is the majority of their damage. Some other classes are much better at soloing.

taking account of class seems to me to be very sensible.

Chai
01-28-2011, 09:51 AM
You are correct, for a good group. I never hesitate to group with guildies because I know what I'm getting.

Most low level PUGS are...average... in abiity and knowledge. I used to really like being in that group with 5 new people, now it makes me grumpy. In my personal experience, more than half the cases they slow you don't, having more doesn't help, it hurts you.

Sure but this is the worse case scenario - a veteran player who wants fast completion having to lead far lesser experienced, less knowledgable players, through a dungeon.

Selective grouping rules. I often times see TRs banding together with the same goal in mind - to plow each dungeon 5 times NNNHE style and get as much XP out of the place as possible. I think we can manage to find groups with like minded similarly skilled players without having to enforce grouping standards.


I agree with this. SOMETHING should have been done within D&D rules, but the DA response is just annoying and non-D&D like. That however is a different thread.

We should have been careful what we asked for when we moaned about lag for three years straight, heh :p

Who would have known that the two major things done to fix something that was harped on for three years would have been less favorable than the situation being harped on? On the upside, we no longer see these frequent "ZOMG fix the LAAAAAG!!!" threads we used to see weekly.

Thelmallen
01-28-2011, 10:22 AM
/not signed

I don't think dungeon scaling is the disincentive to grouping, it's the groups that are the disincentive to grouping. Have you pugged a low-level group lately?

I think DS gives us flexibility. I really enjoy blasting through stuff with a couple of guildies when leveling a TR but I'd rather run solo, take half-again as long and not have to group with a bunch of knuckleheads who hit me with a "shr plz" as soon as they pop into group, get lost four times on the way to the quest, die 5 minutes from the quest entrance then have to be rescued and taken to a shrine then zerg ahead and get killed multiple times when running the quest, costing resources and time. Anyone else have this experience? Five hundred times? At least?

If we're worried about the quests being too hard, you can jump right into elite rather than doing it on normal or casual.

GentlemanAndAScholar
01-28-2011, 10:23 AM
Dungeon Scaling is the single worst change to this game in it's history (including DA).

This is due to it's game play altering design that not only makes solo play more achievable, but actually easier in many cases then grouping.

This is bad for the game.

By creating a disincentive to group the game starts losing out on one of the major reasons why MMO's can keep people playing longer then the old console games...social interaction. MMO's are only as strong as their communities and sub-communities. DDO has traditionally had a strong community based upon it's original game design that encouraged grouping. This forced people to play with other players and make friends along the way. This also helps a companies bottom line with increased renewal rates. Players who feel a tie to other players in game stay with the game longer.

Turbine changed this dynamic with dungeon scaling. Instead of making solo play a little easier then it was before while still maintaining a clear and strong advantage to grouping at all level ranges the system instead created a reason not to take along someone.

As it stands dungeon scaling has one huge flaw and a few smaller flaws.

The huge flaw is the extent of scaling that occurs. This flaw is a flaw of magnitude. Somewhere along the way Turbine made dungeon scaling scaled to new players with bad gear and bad build. By setting the bar so low for what solo play was scaled for it created the uphill climb required to justify adding people to your party steeper. This means that the quality of play/build expected to make another person in the party better then running without that person goes up. This is in stark contrast to the pre-DA system where unless a quest had a specific mechanic that a player could screw up for the whole party there was no real reason not to have more people in the party. So due to the extent of scaling in dungeon scaling the bar to make another party member valuable goes up.

As the main flaw with dungeon scaling is one of magnitude it's fix is simple. Scale the magnitude of dungeon scaling dramatically downward. It should be a no brainer for a new player or a veteran to get another person in the party.

The secondary flaws of dungeon scaling have to do with implementation that would mostly be solved by a dramatic reduction in the scaling factor as such I will not mention them here beyond the brief note that class based scaling is inherently flawed due to the dramatically different builds in DDO and certain gear differentiations between builds of the same class.

/signed. Add to that the -10% XP bonus hit if said person is really newbie/ungeared and dies and there is very little incentive for me to group with anyone else outside my guild and friends. I would rather run without heals, or bard, or caster than to let someone unknown into party even if said class type would make certain quest much easier. Dungeon Scaling needs to go, IMO. You cannot fix something that's inherently broken.

Cyr
01-28-2011, 10:34 AM
I don't think dungeon scaling is the disincentive to grouping, it's the groups that are the disincentive to grouping.


What came first the chicken or the egg?

Without DS you might see more competent players actually bothering to group while leveling outside of guild. Before DS groups were much better on average.

With DS you are left with really the worst of the worst having a strong enough incentive to group (to make up for their slack). You pointed out a few classic bad player traits, but if you think about it they are also traits that make it so that those players have to group (don't learn, need someone else to rescue them).

Cyr
01-28-2011, 10:40 AM
Some classes are much better than others at soloing (vs most dungeons). Rogues are particularly BAD at soloing, as without someone to get aggro they lose sneak attack which is the majority of their damage. Some other classes are much better at soloing.

taking account of class seems to me to be very sensible.

It also seemed very sensible to the devs, but they were wrong.

Once a radiance rapier becomes equipped or stunning blow is aquired rogues are pretty dang impressive at soloing for example.

There are vast differences in different builds capabilities when it comes to short man play...even builds that share the same class icon...and that ignores gear differences which are even more dramatic.

If you would like to see some very good soloing builds of these sorts just look up some of the builds used by completionists. They figured out pretty quickly that a premium on solo capability trumped end game viability for these builds.

knockcocker
01-28-2011, 11:20 AM
I like it mucho, makes xping become faster. Can always xp smooth and easy on any gimped toon on normal even if hard find a group. Thats good in my book. make Elite and even hard give a tad better base xp so you ave bigger incentive to group that way wo ruining solo play is my idea of "cure". But i like it as it is.

This. Base XP should be considerably better on Hard and Elite than it is now.

~sumptingwong
01-28-2011, 11:25 AM
Dungeon Scaling is the single worst change to this game in it's history (including DA).

This is due to it's game play altering design that not only makes solo play more achievable, but actually easier in many cases then grouping.

This is bad for the game.

By creating a disincentive to group the game starts losing out on one of the major reasons why MMO's can keep people playing longer then the old console games...social interaction. MMO's are only as strong as their communities and sub-communities. DDO has traditionally had a strong community based upon it's original game design that encouraged grouping. This forced people to play with other players and make friends along the way. This also helps a companies bottom line with increased renewal rates. Players who feel a tie to other players in game stay with the game longer.

Turbine changed this dynamic with dungeon scaling. Instead of making solo play a little easier then it was before while still maintaining a clear and strong advantage to grouping at all level ranges the system instead created a reason not to take along someone.

As it stands dungeon scaling has one huge flaw and a few smaller flaws.

The huge flaw is the extent of scaling that occurs. This flaw is a flaw of magnitude. Somewhere along the way Turbine made dungeon scaling scaled to new players with bad gear and bad build. By setting the bar so low for what solo play was scaled for it created the uphill climb required to justify adding people to your party steeper. This means that the quality of play/build expected to make another person in the party better then running without that person goes up. This is in stark contrast to the pre-DA system where unless a quest had a specific mechanic that a player could screw up for the whole party there was no real reason not to have more people in the party. So due to the extent of scaling in dungeon scaling the bar to make another party member valuable goes up.

As the main flaw with dungeon scaling is one of magnitude it's fix is simple. Scale the magnitude of dungeon scaling dramatically downward. It should be a no brainer for a new player or a veteran to get another person in the party.

The secondary flaws of dungeon scaling have to do with implementation that would mostly be solved by a dramatic reduction in the scaling factor as such I will not mention them here beyond the brief note that class based scaling is inherently flawed due to the dramatically different builds in DDO and certain gear differentiations between builds of the same class.

Dungeon Scaling is fine how it is, are you saying all quests In GH should always do 5-10damage or 20-30? if your soloing you should be taking less damage, and if you want to save the PUGs and want to be social all for it and then good for you. I have basically solo'd and guild run to level 10 on a Tr (double) and everything is fine, the only thing need improving is... Dungeon Alert, Glancing blows, and The Loot tables, stop winning and go Solo to 20 like what other experienced players do. I figured ever since this quest gone F2p anyways PUGing is not worth it due to more and more idiots, complain if you want but face it... Turbine probably won't "FIX" it...

Broldin
01-28-2011, 11:33 AM
The nice thing about this game is that you don't need 3+ uninterupted hours. Sure, you can run a 3 hr raid train through all the raids and a smattering of epics, but you don't need to do that.

No quest takes longer than an hour. Most quests are less.

Available time is simply not a reason to group or not group in this game.

Really? My 3 year old and wife disagree with you. I appreciate when others only join my groups if the can commit to finishing it. I try to do the same.

eonfreon
01-28-2011, 11:34 AM
Dungeon Scaling is fine how it is, are you saying all quests In GH should always do 5-10damage or 20-30? if your soloing you should be taking less damage, and if you want to save the PUGs and want to be social all for it and then good for you. I have basically solo'd and guild run to level 10 on a Tr (double) and everything is fine, the only thing need improving is... Dungeon Alert, Glancing blows, and The Loot tables, stop winning and go Solo to 20 like what other experienced players do. I figured ever since this quest gone F2p anyways PUGing is not worth it due to more and more idiots, complain if you want but face it... Turbine probably won't "FIX" it...

While I know that Scaling is supposed to lower damage, I have to ask why you think that by the simple virtue of going in "solo" that you should be taking less damage. Just wondering what the reasoning is.

Just because you're one guy the Mobs should hit for less? Why?

I understand you just want to rush through the content since you're TRing and all, but I would just like to know the logic behind "since I'm in this Dungeon alone, everything should be weaker to compensate". Is it just because you want it to be easier and thus faster? Or is there more to your reasoning?

Broldin
01-28-2011, 11:38 AM
Something else those of you crying for the good old days, when everything was hard mode, need to remember... DDO had one foot in the grave.

Accessibility, F2P and solo/noob friendly play, is the only reason this game is still around. If it's too easy, play elite and stop twinking your toons.

~sumptingwong
01-28-2011, 11:39 AM
While I know that Scaling is supposed to lower damage, I have to ask why you think that by the simple virtue of going in "solo" that you should be taking less damage. Just wondering what the reasoning is.

Just because you're one guy the Mobs should hit for less? Why?

I understand you just want to rush through the content since you're TRing and all, but I would just like to know the logic behind "since I'm in this Dungeon alone, everything should be weaker to compensate". Is it just because you want it to be easier and thus faster? Or is there more to your reasoning?

There is absolutely no logic involved in Turbines Dungeon Scaling method. But let me ask this, if you get hurt the same as if soloing, then soloing should also have it so the soloer gets X6 the loot, there are many flaws in DDO but then why do we play it? It is because it is a game made rather well and if you really care about flaws that much then... Just Quit...

eonfreon
01-28-2011, 11:48 AM
Something else those of you crying for the good old days, when everything was hard mode, need to remember... DDO had one foot in the grave.

Accessibility, F2P and solo/noob friendly play, is the only reason this game is still around. If it's too easy, play elite and stop twinking your toons.

You do have a rather good point. From low level to high level there is no shortage of LFMs for groups. People are learning and improving. Or they are doing their own thing and advancing as they like, either by themselves or with a small group of friends.

That's how I started. Just me and two friends. They played less and less so I grouped more and more and created more characters.

I guess my only real problem is when I see people complain about the difficulty of the quests on the forums and wanting it made even easier. But you know, that's not a real big problem either. If "bad" players were truly interferring with my game time constantly, then I suppose it would be a problem. But I see little evidence of this really. In any given group there are good players and bad players, or rather just more inexperienced, like a S&B Fighter in a high-level quest.

The truly "bad" and "disuptive" players, sure there are more because the game has a f2p aspect, but most can't really reach high level without getting some clue. Sure some can, but they do get weeded out from better groups. It does seem like more people complain about subpar playersw, but that's mostly because there are more players. More players is a good thing for the health of the game.

I suppose if some people want the quests even easier, then more power to them. It'll just make me look even better when I group up with them ;). And if you're really into a challenge, there is truly no challenge greater than keeping a bad player alive. It's also kind of fun letting them die and then finishing the quest with them in your pocket.

hermespan
01-28-2011, 11:49 AM
DS is handy for when you start a group to do a quest and 20 minutes later there's still no one hitting the lfm.

Some will say "well casual fills that need" but it really doesn't, especially when you are doing vale quests for ingredients. They don't drop on casual.

I also prefer to solo let sleeping dust lie for funk since pugs kill too many spiders about half the time, leading to fail.

As someone else noted, I also have limited time to play. Sometimes I don't have time to wait 20 minutes then mess around with pikers and AH junkies that still aren't at quest entrance 10 minutes after group filled.

/not signed

eonfreon
01-28-2011, 11:52 AM
There is absolutely no logic involved in Turbines Dungeon Scaling method. But let me ask this, if you get hurt the same as if soloing, then soloing should also have it so the soloer gets X6 the loot, there are many flaws in DDO but then why do we play it? It is because it is a game made rather well and if you really care about flaws that much then... Just Quit...

Hmmm. Good point on the loot. I mean it's not like you actually get 6x the loot because you have 6 other players that get their loot, but a quest with the same level of monsters should in theory have the same loot.

I guess it should be one or the other. Since Turbine isn't about to multiply the loot since experienced players would have no trouble anyway and thus increase their already overstuffed loot bags, I guess there is logic to making the dungeon easier instead.

pHo3nix
01-28-2011, 12:10 PM
Dungeon Scaling is fine how it is, are you saying all quests In GH should always do 5-10damage or 20-30? if your soloing you should be taking less damage, and if you want to save the PUGs and want to be social all for it and then good for you. I have basically solo'd and guild run to level 10 on a Tr (double) and everything is fine, the only thing need improving is... Dungeon Alert, Glancing blows, and The Loot tables, stop winning and go Solo to 20 like what other experienced players do. I figured ever since this quest gone F2p anyways PUGing is not worth it due to more and more idiots, complain if you want but face it... Turbine probably won't "FIX" it...

If you are ready for the content you want to run you shouldn't have any problem soloing a quest without DS. I don't get why every single character with 8 starting CON (6 if drow/elf) MUST reach the cap soloing and then find out he's useless cause 200 hp at cap are not enough, even if you are a "uber" wiz/sorc or rogue that stays out of the fight.

If they get rid of DS people that are good can solo their way to 20 anyway if they want. For the others who are not that good they can solo on casual, that stupid difficulty is there for a reason, isn't it? Or we need more people that flag for ToD on casual dieing 20 times and then got 1 shotted if horoth look at them?

And i love soloing when it's a challenge, but for 99% of the game it's not a challenge.

GentlemanAndAScholar
01-28-2011, 12:27 PM
There is absolutely no logic involved in Turbines Dungeon Scaling method. But let me ask this, if you get hurt the same as if soloing, then soloing should also have it so the soloer gets X6 the loot, there are many flaws in DDO but then why do we play it? It is because it is a game made rather well and if you really care about flaws that much then... Just Quit...

People used to solo thing WAY before DS was put in place as an accomplishment thing. For instance, back in the days of GH max lvl14 (Greensteel was not even in our wettest dreams yet, +2 tomes used to be the bees-knees, etc.) soloing those quests (no-exploits, fair-and-square) was an accomplishment. Heck, folks soloing Enter the Kobold on elite (when we all were lvl16s) was such an accomplishment and hard to believe that it -- sadly -- torn apart a bunch of people who used to be good ING friends. DS takes the accomplishment away almost entirely. More so because there is circumstantial and anecdotal evidence that DS is applying on elite and raid instances (even though it is officially stated such isn't the case).

knockcocker
01-28-2011, 12:37 PM
If you are ready for the content you want to run you shouldn't have any problem soloing a quest without DS. I don't get why every single character with 8 starting CON (6 if drow/elf) MUST reach the cap soloing and then find out he's useless cause 200 hp at cap are not enough, even if you are a "uber" wiz/sorc or rogue that stays out of the fight.


Intentionally or not, you've presented that as a false dichotomy. The issue isn't really whether it's too 'easy' or
that it produces capped toons which are useless nor that players 'for' DS couldn't complete on harder difficulties
solo. The assertion in the OP was that DS positively encourages solo play as it's, generally, smoother and faster
than grouping - specifically a pick-up group. The fundamental problem is that you can't make the challenge too
stiff as to require grouping again as that re-introduces the problem they spent a lot of time trying to fix with
DS. They need to provide incentives to group without penalties to those who, for whatever reason, prefer to
run solo. It shouldn't be either/or. Besides, good players will still be able to solo regardless - if they so choose.
Removing DS will just increase the 'talent' pool of less able players IMO.




If they get rid of DS people that are good can solo their way to 20 anyway if they want. For the others who are not that good they can solo on casual, that stupid difficulty is there for a reason, isn't it? Or we need more people that flag for ToD on casual dieing 20 times and then got 1 shotted if horoth look at them?


Again, I think you have a point though I'm not sure how many players with really bad builds solo to 20 rather
than pike.



And i love soloing when it's a challenge, but for 99% of the game it's not a challenge.

You don't have to select normal difficulty ;). Normal is for the TR XP grind.

Basically I think we have:

TR toons or everyone has a 32 point build.
Uber low level twink items from Korthos and the Chronoscope raid
Guild buffs.
DDO store items.

I think the above would make even the 'old' normal feel easy.

Roll up a 28 point character on a ftp account with no gear and see how easy Bloodknuckles is on that
toon! :-)

pHo3nix
01-28-2011, 12:54 PM
You don't have to select normal difficulty ;). Normal is for the TR XP grind.



Consider i never use guild buffs and i use ddo store only for Adventure packs and maybe some cosmetics :)
Anyway this is the problem: TR might be boring cause you have to farm quests on normal that are too easy for your geared toon; if i was able to run a quest 3-4 lvls higher than me and still reach the cap without having to farm slayers I would do it instead of running quests at lvl-1 to get the max xp possible.

eonfreon
01-28-2011, 12:55 PM
Roll up a 28 point character on a ftp account with no gear and see how easy Bloodknuckles is on that
toon! :-)

He's a pushover.

I haven't bought 32 pt builds. I have several TP farming toons on several servers that are 28 points.

But I do think you have a point. If you want a challenge, you do the quest on a more challenging difficulty.
Norm difficulty is mostly for XP, learning a quest, or just "having a little fun".

pHo3nix
01-28-2011, 01:01 PM
But I do think you have a point. If you want a challenge, you do the quest on a more challenging difficulty.
Norm difficulty is mostly for XP, learning a quest, or just "having a little fun".

Yes, but it would be nice if on a TR xp and challenge went together :) As it's now, they are 2 parallel lines :(

Cyr
01-28-2011, 01:01 PM
Again, I think you have a point though I'm not sure how many players with really bad builds solo to 20 rather
than pike.


Well this really is the issue with encouraging solo play over group play isn't it?

Both DS and the -10% death penalty act as a funnel which channels people into certain behaviors. These behaviors depend on the build and play quality of the players....

If the player is really at the bottom of gameplay (meaning they don't learn, don't want to learn, have bad builds, or just plain want to sit afk while others do the work) then as always there is a very strong incentive to group. Frankly these players don't want to do any work or think at all. This funnels these players into open lfms very strongly.

The new players and less skilled players are more split between grouping and not. They might have issues not soloing first time through something and it's easier to coast along, but they could handle it after the first time probably. These players are often still learning and might be insecure about grouping also leading to more solo play. This group is most split between grouping and not, but when they group they often run with other players of similar state or in open LFM's.

The average player who figures stuff out without their hand being held each step of the way and who is not brand new off the boat is more likely to group with those they know or solo. Soloing holds a strong pull because of the fear of the first two groups who dominate open lfms and because they can pull it off without real trouble. These players are not as likely to be in open LFM's then the first two groups due to their capabilities and the incentives.

The above average player is most likely to almost entirely run in guild/with friends or solo. This type of player knows that unless they know the person a 10% xp penalty is likely that they would not have otherwise. These players are least likely to be in open LFMs.

eonfreon
01-28-2011, 01:05 PM
Yes, but it would be nice if on a TR xp and challenge went together :) As it's now, they are 2 parallel lines :(

Understood. But you're a TR. You likely have twinked gear too. Normal quests, even before DS, are not much of a challenge. The challenge is maximizing the XP. Yes, I find it annoying too.

So either rush through Normal as fast as you can so that you can have some fun at higher difficulties, or "hamstring" yourself and use subpar equipment if possible.

The only other solution I could think of so that most people are happy is to alllow a checkbox or a sliding scale to lower or turn off DS.

Even then Normal won't be much of a challenge (you are likely doing a quest that you know like the back of your hand against Mobs that you know what works best on), but it'll be a decent boost in difficulty.

knockcocker
01-28-2011, 01:14 PM
Well this really is the issue with encouraging solo play over group play isn't it?

Both DS and the -10% death penalty act as a funnel which channels people into certain behaviors. These behaviors depend on the build and play quality of the players....

If the player is really at the bottom of gameplay (meaning they don't learn, don't want to learn, have bad builds, or just plain want to sit afk while others do the work) then as always there is a very strong incentive to group. Frankly these players don't want to do any work or think at all. This funnels these players into open lfms very strongly.

The new players and less skilled players are more split between grouping and not. They might have issues not soloing first time through something and it's easier to coast along, but they could handle it after the first time probably. These players are often still learning and might be insecure about grouping also leading to more solo play. This group is most split between grouping and not, but when they group they often run with other players of similar state or in open LFM's.

The average player who figures stuff out without their hand being held each step of the way and who is not brand new off the boat is more likely to group with those they know or solo. Soloing holds a strong pull because of the fear of the first two groups who dominate open lfms and because they can pull it off without real trouble. These players are not as likely to be in open LFM's then the first two groups due to their capabilities and the incentives.

The above average player is most likely to almost entirely run in guild/with friends or solo. This type of player knows that unless they know the person a 10% xp penalty is likely that they would not have otherwise. These players are least likely to be in open LFMs.

I understand what you're saying. However, we already know (well, turbine do) what the effect is of raising
the 'challenge' bar for normal completion. It's frustrated players leaving the game. I think it's dangerous
to assume that players will start grouping if normal is made more difficult as that is not supported by the
historical data. Grouping needs to me made more attractive, soloing not less. A good start would be
changing the -10%xp penalty to be per player rather than per group and increasing base XP for H and E.

Frotz
01-28-2011, 03:49 PM
The only other solution I could think of so that most people are happy is to alllow a checkbox or a sliding scale to lower or turn off DS.

Could also make that accessible by calling it (some adjective) Party Size. Have Auto (aka DS Classic and the default), and 2, 4, and 6 party size checkboxes. Depending on the implementation you might gray-out some of the sizes for Hard and Elite. That wouldn't actually limit the size of the party, but select the scaling applied. To keep the low-hanging fruit from being too easy and rewarding the scaling level could also affect rewards. Sure, you can run a full-group through on 2-man setting, but then you *should* be able to run on a higher difficulty or party size setting for more challenge and reward. If you want to solo, you can also fine-tune the difficulty/reward for yourself as well, or use it for "scouting out" what the difficulty of the fuller party settings actually are without the N/H/E system futzing up all the CRs on you.

It is a bit funky right now that if someone (or some group) is having trouble on Casual/Normal/Hard, they'll actually be even less effective individually if they get "help" by recruiting more members.

Lleren
01-28-2011, 09:14 PM
Elite doesnt scale.

Unless you are running quests with 4 people who have no idea whatsoever, you should be able to run the quest faster in the group than solo, especially if those 4 people have relatively similar gear / quest knowledge you do.

You'll have to point out where I said elite scales. Others folks have made that claim, I don't care.

My claim is that Soloing is often much faster then the average pug for me. I also defined my terms in case someone thinks I mean some whitelist grouping instead of the first few players that hit the lfm and start.

mystafyi
01-28-2011, 09:41 PM
dungeon scaling causes the best players to not group as much since solo/duo is easier and much faster then bothering with groups. (unless you have a group of great players that play well together)
until yer group can smash cows times i disagree with claims that grouping is faster.

infinidibulum
02-16-2011, 04:50 PM
Question:
I've been googling DS and I've not yet been able to find the specific mechanics of it. One poster in this thread was able to provide generalized mechanics but if there is a page out there that has a spreadsheet or list of specific multipliers/divisions/additions/subtractions to stats that occur due to dungeon scaling, I'd be interested to look at it. If anyone knows of such a link, please send it to me or post it here.

Commentary:
Learning about DS has helped me understand why my favorite group composition is 1-3 humans and 1-3 hirelings. It's only been recently that I had this revelation and it's been a rather disappointing one. It never occurred to me that my frustration with full groups could be in part due to being conditioned to believe that I was playing at the same level of difficulty in small groups.

Opinion of DS:
I think there are enough arguments in this thread to support DS in some form but I feel that it should be represented more by additional foes than by buffed foes. When a player sees the same Ogre in the same quest, at the same difficulty, it is not irrational for them to remember the last time they entered the quest solo and roundly thrashed the Ogre. When said Ogre obliterates the player, it is not irrational for that player to be confused and even a little upset.

Recently, I soloed in the Lair of Summoning and returned to it on the same day with a full group. The party got split up and three of us spent five minutes struggling to defeat a couple of Gargoyles (while other party members kept asking us where we were, rather than coming back to help). I had dealt with those Gargoyles handily, on my own and I was baffled as to why the would be so resilient. About half way through I realized, "This is why people hate dungeon scaling."

Still, I can see how it might be strange and even ineffective and perhaps equally upsetting to simply multiply the number of enemies by the number of players.

From what I've experienced and read here it seems that DS is arbitrarily harsh to groups of 5 or 6. A group of 3-4 can be very effective and I can understand why players might not feel disinclined to fill out their group, especially with a player who represents a wild card.

Suggestion for DS:
If Turbine does revisit the mechanics of DS (of which I am as yet somewhat uncertain) I'd like to see it narrowed somewhat narrowed. Drastically increasing (or decreasing) the power of a foe can condition players to underestimate them. As I said above, the focus should be somewhat more on adding minions to match the size of the party.

I suppose one drawback would be that someone would have to individually customize each quest for the size of each group and there would be complications if a group entered with 6 and then lost half of the players but I don't see why this would be insurmountable.

Point about Death Penalty:
As I understand it, the 10% xp is a bonus for all characters surviving. It seems to me that a player who joins a Pick Up Group should expect the xp that the quest offers normally and then be happy if the team works together well enough to keep everyone alive and receive the bonus. So, it's not actually a penalty, if you look at it from this perspective.

Epilogue:
I don't hate DS but I'm not in love with the way it works right now. I think it has encouraged me to solo more often and to play more often in smaller groups. I wasn't aware of it DS but found myself frequently frustrated when I participated in what I considered to be "complete" groups. It is counter-intuitive that entering a quest with a full company would be more difficult than with one friend and a couple of hirelings and there is nothing in the game to indicate to a player that they should be aware of this. Now that I understand the system (somewhat) I can proceed with greater caution in those circumstances and have a relatively good time but if I had known earlier on in my DDO experience, I would have had a little more fun and wouldn't have found myself cursing into my monitor nearly as often.