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View Full Version : Tubine Marketing: Let the players play Gianthold Tor Epic



Shade
01-21-2011, 08:39 AM
Over a year ago I played and completed this quest. It was a blast. Well designed, very challenging and the loot from the compedium looks to be (mostly) great.

Check out my original thread about it for some screenshots and info:
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=224283

So yea. It's complete. It even went to the live servers. People ran it on live.

However, Turbine marketing decided on that first day of the patch.. That we were not allowed to play it as it wasn't "planned". So after being available for a day or so, they shut down the quest (Entirely, not caring about the fact no one could run the quest on any difficulty or flag for reaver)

So what's the deal? Still haven't found the best timing to release it to make the most money?

Perhaps there were some issues where the epic recipes or something weren't complete or soemthing.. But they had a year now to fix that.

So yea. Unlock the content. Let other players check it out.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-21-2011, 08:48 AM
Maybe Tor was all that was done and they want to Epicify the whole thing?
Or that it was Epically buggy and they decided to work on new stuff instead of bothing to fix old modules?

I dunno... I have also been waiting ever since your first press release about Epic Tor.

mws2970
01-21-2011, 08:51 AM
Unlock epic Tor!

/signed

Shade
01-21-2011, 08:58 AM
There were no bugs other then misssing trash loot - which really anyone who runs epic often doesn't care about. Every switch, trigger, trap and section of the quest worked fine and seemed to be well polished.

Rest of gianthold epic:
Yea I ran some of the other giant hold epic and it wasn't complete like the TOR. But they had a freakin year to complete it if that was the marketing plan.

And I really can't imagine it taking very long being 95% of the mobs that are in the main quests also appear in gianthold tor, so it's simple matter of finishing the few leftover unique monsters, then doing the loot.

But the 3 key big quests is all I think they would do since other quests have no named loot, and I tested them.. They were all partially done:
Madstone/Prison/Crucible - Every monster scaled correctly except the monsters unique to that quest - infected minotaurs and bosses. Loot likely wasn't done.

Here's a screenshot of madstone epic with correctly scaled ogres and trolls:
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3603/screenshot02675.jpg

Lorien_the_First_One
01-21-2011, 09:11 AM
Yeah, the really does make you wonder. Considering GH was one of the most popular mods ever released, you'd think there would be some good market value in putting it out epic...

Or maybe that's it, because GH is popular enough everyone already buys it so they diverted their attention to new areas that they can make money selling.

Shade
01-21-2011, 09:16 AM
Whatever the reason, it obviously had to do with money, and not development time since the thing was already done and released by the devs.

Probably related to the same reason they broke their promise about epic in general: IE - From update 4 on the plan was always to include an epic version of all new adventure packs released.

And they kept the promise for 4, 5 and 6. Then 7 and 8 show up lacking the option.

Something is obviously planned. And Turbines lack of communication on the subject is as disapointing as ever.

FuzzyDuck81
01-21-2011, 09:34 AM
/signed

My favoured soul's standard weapon is his still his trusty cloudburst, i'd like to see what it can do when epicified :)

grodon9999
01-21-2011, 09:40 AM
Something is obviously planned. And Turbines lack of communication on the subject is as disapointing as ever.

Epic is being "rebooted" whatever that means. Whether it's the change to the loot or the combat dynamics who knows as no details have been released as to what the "reboot" entails. This is why the Lordsmarch quest don't have epic versions, my guess is we won't see anything new in epic until the reboot.

Samiusbot
01-21-2011, 09:42 AM
Hasn't Turbine said they were talking a look at epic and until they have done so there was an hold on epic content?

Or maybe I was reading between the lines some place.

grodon9999
01-21-2011, 09:43 AM
Hasn't Turbine said they were talking a look at epic and until they have done so there was an hold on epic content?

Or maybe I was reading between the lines some place.

I'll not believe to find a quote but I believe you are correct, no new epics until the reboot.

Cam_Neely
01-21-2011, 09:46 AM
My guess is that Epic GH will be the first Epic Rebooted released, and the others will be changed in waves. So what you saw monster wise is probably not what is going to be released, hence the delay. The might be waiting to release other Rebooted Epics at the same time, hence more delay

Junts
01-21-2011, 10:02 AM
There were no bugs other then misssing trash loot - which really anyone who runs epic often doesn't care about. Every switch, trigger, trap and section of the quest worked fine and seemed to be well polished.

Rest of gianthold epic:
Yea I ran some of the other giant hold epic and it wasn't complete like the TOR. But they had a freakin year to complete it if that was the marketing plan.

And I really can't imagine it taking very long being 95% of the mobs that are in the main quests also appear in gianthold tor, so it's simple matter of finishing the few leftover unique monsters, then doing the loot.

But the 3 key big quests is all I think they would do since other quests have no named loot, and I tested them.. They were all partially done:
Madstone/Prison/Crucible - Every monster scaled correctly except the monsters unique to that quest - infected minotaurs and bosses. Loot likely wasn't done.

Here's a screenshot of madstone epic with correctly scaled ogres and trolls:
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3603/screenshot02675.jpg

When we were informed that the update 7 and 8 questchain would not have epic mode, the developers commented that they did not intend to release more epic mode until they had revisited it and adjusted some of the things they feel are problematic with it.

One of the areas where epic is most widely felt to not be working is the desert, where the odds of getting specific scrolls and shards can be incredibly poor. Every epic content released after epic dragon (which doesnt have this problem due to having 1/4 the loot) has addressed these potential problems in different ways (guaranteed shard chests, seals in other endchests, etc), some of which have been more effective than others and seem clearly like Turbine attempts to find workable ways to avoid the desert problem in the future.

However, Gianthold is very similar to the desert in that it has a cosmic ton of items. It's my personal opinion (and this is certainly unconfirmed) that Turbine has chosen not to release epic gianthold until they can find a way to distribute the loot that does not contribute to the frustrations involve in desert explorer shards. Gianthold tor alone has more named loot than any other epic module besides the desert, to say nothing of what happens after you include the flagging quests and the raid.

I would not expect to see them release this content until they've found a solution for what they view as epic's overarching problems (in particular, extremely bad random distributions of loot and repetitive, stunning blow+masshold+nothing else play).

Shade
01-21-2011, 10:54 AM
When we were informed that the update 7 and 8 questchain would not have epic mode, the developers commented that they did not intend to release more epic mode until they had revisited it and adjusted some of the things they feel are problematic with it.

Hah, thats just makes me laugh. Stop working on content for epic players because you can't fix problems at the same time, what a backwards idea.

The "problem" with it, is they are not making enough money off of it.
Since very few people run it, very few people buy packs specificly because they have epic. The endgame epic players aren't making turbine their money, so their focus has always been more on the other crowds which generated a lot more revenue.

I'd bet "reboot" means figuring out a way to charge turbine points specificly for epic content.

Preventing us from playing content will never be for our benefit, no matter how twisted you try to argue otherwise. It's about money, and only money.

ckorik
01-21-2011, 11:06 AM
Hah, thats just makes me laugh. Stop working on content for epic players because you can't fix problems at the same time, what a backwards idea.

The "problem" with it, is they are not making enough money off of it.
Since very few people run it, very few people buy packs specificly because they have epic. The endgame epic players aren't making turbine their money, so their focus has always been more on the other crowds which generated a lot more revenue.

I'd bet "reboot" means figuring out a way to charge turbine points specificly for epic content.

Preventing us from playing content will never be for our benefit, no matter how twisted you try to argue otherwise. It's about money, and only money.

All of that is speculation - I could just as easy say that there are problems with the items in the dungeon that can corrupt your character to the point of needing to be deleted - it's just as valid a speculation and would be a decent reason and serious enough bug to *not* release the content.

A bug like the above is actually much more likely (IMO) than your argument as we already have had major (abbot deleting GS items?) bugs like this.

Other than the past month which I give them a break on due to holidays there isn't a *single* game out there that has as much dev interaction with it's playerbase - and I'm inclined to think they actually do care about our opinions.

grodon9999
01-21-2011, 02:24 PM
Hah, thats just makes me laugh. Stop working on content for epic players because you can't fix problems at the same time, what a backwards idea.

The "problem" with it, is they are not making enough money off of it.
Since very few people run it, very few people buy packs specificly because they have epic. The endgame epic players aren't making turbine their money, so their focus has always been more on the other crowds which generated a lot more revenue.

I'd bet "reboot" means figuring out a way to charge turbine points specificly for epic content.

Preventing us from playing content will never be for our benefit, no matter how twisted you try to argue otherwise. It's about money, and only money.

You're pretty much on about the being about money, but when only 5% play epic content and of that 5% most (guessing here based on the complain threads) think epic is an overly-grindy borefest it's for the long term good of the game that epic gets changed.

Junts
01-21-2011, 03:25 PM
Hah, thats just makes me laugh. Stop working on content for epic players because you can't fix problems at the same time, what a backwards idea.

The "problem" with it, is they are not making enough money off of it.
Since very few people run it, very few people buy packs specificly because they have epic. The endgame epic players aren't making turbine their money, so their focus has always been more on the other crowds which generated a lot more revenue.

I'd bet "reboot" means figuring out a way to charge turbine points specificly for epic content.

Preventing us from playing content will never be for our benefit, no matter how twisted you try to argue otherwise. It's about money, and only money.

Considering how much easier epic was than it was when you quit, I'd really be surprised if its that small a minority who run epic content, though I'd agree it is a minority. Easier epics, though, are achievable even by many of the very worst level 20s.

I suspect you may not appreciate how badly epics were nerfed in the update that lead to your leaving this summer. I had an old 28 pt cleric on my account that I hadn't touched since the level 16 cap. I leveled it up to have an extra character for dq/dragon shard collection. Running around with a (very pathetic) 34 wisdom, he lands spells quite reliably in most epic quests. Not that clerics have many good spells to land, mind you, but stuff like greater command and symbol of persuasion land better for him on most epic mobs than they do in Reaver's Refuge, much less Amrath.

Even the worst-geared arcanes can mass hold their way through most epic quests these days, with a few exceptions where saves are much higher (like von 4/5, and adq). They may not land every spell on every mob, but it's really more than enough. Stuff like snitch, partycrashers, last stand, von 1/2, etc, are run by a pretty wide range of players, as are both raids, which are, simply extremely easy now.

I agree that it is about money, and more than that it's about player retention: Epic mode has been the bone thrown to people who intend to play capped characters, an important demographic in any MMO, and that bone has had 3 major problems

1: It's frequently been too much harder than the next step down in content, if specific tactics aren't used
2: Actually making epic items is something that's far easier to do for people who play a ton or have many characters, and very difficult for people with smaller amounts of playtime. Its not uncommon to make no epic items for 2-4 weeks in a new set of epic content, and then readily become able to make 5-8 of them in a day or two due to how epic items are created.
3: In their quest to make epic content more challenging and to avoid cheesy tactics that avoid actually fighting monsters, epic content permits a fairly narrow range of successful strategies and even successful character builds, which further decreases people's desire to do it. More complaints are about how X or Y defining class feature is worthless in epic than there are about how hard epic items are to make!

This combines to make epic something that people generally do because its their only option to improve their characters or play them at a capped level. Very few epic quests are so legitimately fun on their own as to merit people's running them repeatedly just for kicks. Most people who have the epic items a quest offers stop running it, in part because "hold it, stun it, and then use picks or a greataxe" is incredibly repetitive, and in part because in order to get the items the quest offers, they've run it 75-100 times or more and are quite sick of the sight of it.

That's certainly an overarching problem that hits Turbine in the pocket, not just in terms of people buying adventure packs to run them on epic, but staying on the game at all since Epic is the only endgame content that exists right now. I think it's understandable that they appreciate a need to fix it.

I'll note I wasn't defending the decision to keep gianthold from us until they fix it: Only that I suspect that is their reason, and for understandable ones - if epic gianthold came out and it is the epic desert again in terms of equipment acquisition and loot tables that have too many items on it, it will be extremely unpopular and frustrating as soon as 'at least it isn't the same damn quest' has worn off, which will be ..about a week. That's not a good recipe for them to sell the gianthold adventure pack, nor will it provide them good press and character retention.

For those of us who'll play anyway, it would be a boon, but for many who are looking to DDO's endgame to provide something different from what it has or an improvement on their complaints, it would be negative reinforcement. Those players are more important to Turbine's pocket than we are, primarily because there's a chance they may stop paying for DDO, whereas its quite unlikely you or I will stop doing so for reasons that have much to do with Turbine's behavior (and a lot more to do with our own, because we play so much we get burnt out and take breaks).

rest
01-21-2011, 03:37 PM
I'm inclined to think they actually do care about our opinions.

http://images.memegenerator.net/willy-wonka/ImageMacro/1800942/You-must-be-new-here.jpg

maddmatt70
01-21-2011, 03:38 PM
When we were informed that the update 7 and 8 questchain would not have epic mode, the developers commented that they did not intend to release more epic mode until they had revisited it and adjusted some of the things they feel are problematic with it.

One of the areas where epic is most widely felt to not be working is the desert, where the odds of getting specific scrolls and shards can be incredibly poor. Every epic content released after epic dragon (which doesnt have this problem due to having 1/4 the loot) has addressed these potential problems in different ways (guaranteed shard chests, seals in other endchests, etc), some of which have been more effective than others and seem clearly like Turbine attempts to find workable ways to avoid the desert problem in the future.

However, Gianthold is very similar to the desert in that it has a cosmic ton of items. It's my personal opinion (and this is certainly unconfirmed) that Turbine has chosen not to release epic gianthold until they can find a way to distribute the loot that does not contribute to the frustrations involve in desert explorer shards. Gianthold tor alone has more named loot than any other epic module besides the desert, to say nothing of what happens after you include the flagging quests and the raid.

I would not expect to see them release this content until they've found a solution for what they view as epic's overarching problems (in particular, extremely bad random distributions of loot and repetitive, stunning blow+masshold+nothing else play).

I do not think the loot is the major issue with epic to be honest although the people that play epic complain about the loot distribution (yet people like yourself still run it). The problem with epic is the way the combat is designed. Many people that no longer play ddo did not like the way the epic combat was designed. It is those people's input that matters not the people that are still playing the content but those that quit.

maddmatt70
01-21-2011, 03:51 PM
Whatever the reason, it obviously had to do with money, and not development time since the thing was already done and released by the devs.

Probably related to the same reason they broke their promise about epic in general: IE - From update 4 on the plan was always to include an epic version of all new adventure packs released.

And they kept the promise for 4, 5 and 6. Then 7 and 8 show up lacking the option.

Something is obviously planned. And Turbines lack of communication on the subject is as disapointing as ever.

There are hordes of people that levelled to 20 tried epics out and found it was lacking and then levelled a couple of more characters towards the end game, got bored, and quit.

Turbine kind of blew the release of DDO, not as bad as some other mmos, because they released it 6 months too early. The result of that mistake was a huge % of the population left the game in the first 6 months. If they would have held it back made more content and then released it DDO would have been better off then. DDO Unlimited was a much more well done successful release because in part they made sure they got it much more right. I remember suffering those last 3 months prior to it with the lack of content, but I agree with their decision then. The morale of that story is get it right because sometimes you will not get a second chance. This decision altering the end game is a major game change which I think they should get right before they release something shoddy which results in droves leaving DDO.

I disagree with your statement that Gianthold Tor is great because like all epic it is almost certainly done poorly and therefore wrong. It is the same old stun mob and/or create an inst crit chance for high dps melee that so many out there dislike. Like it or not people like insta kill spells, ac, different tactics, etc.. etc..

fuzzy1guy
01-21-2011, 04:01 PM
Granted i've only got a year here...

But honestly. Turbine comes off as a pretty bi-polar game company.

The devs largely seem to have no clue whats going on in game for real. Things they claim work fine on the test server work noplace else.. (ie fog slowing ect). Long standing well known bugs often get a 'oh we didnt know about that!' type reply.

They routinely break things that worked perfectly.

How about our armor sets that work like nobody wanted when we provided dozens of better ideas for free.

They break things and leave them broken if it doesnt provide us an advantage.. Those broken things that give us an advantage are fixed lightning fast.

Game managment and marketing here seems to be a pretty funny joke with little to no overlap with reality.

Heck this is a game company that banned several thousand people automatically and tried to cover it up right until an outside news site reported on it!

All in all.. Are you SUPRISED a nearly finished epic pack was shelved? Most likely for some insanely obtuse reason.

From what i've seen... I'm not suprised at all. I'd say its 'normal'.

EazyWeazy
01-21-2011, 04:12 PM
Gianthold as a module itself has always been my favorite. I just really love all the quests and have always found them to be very very fun. I'd love to see GH (all of it) released with Epic. I'd probably give epics in general another go if they did.

Junts
01-21-2011, 05:24 PM
I do not think the loot is the major issue with epic to be honest although the people that play epic complain about the loot distribution (yet people like yourself still run it). The problem with epic is the way the combat is designed. Many people that no longer play ddo did not like the way the epic combat was designed. It is those people's input that matters not the people that are still playing the content but those that quit.

The problem with loot isn't that I run something 150 times to make an item, because I do that.

Its all those people with level 20 characters who admit they don't run epic because they play their capped toon maybe 5 hours a week and think that means they can never make an epic item.

It doesn't even matter whether they can make an epic item - they don't think they can, and so they don't try.

Many people will never have the ingredients for multiple dual shard shroud items, either, but they still try for it because they think it might be possible, between trading and running the shroud when they can, to add up to it. They don't do the same with epic because they think they'll never pull the scroll.

maddmatt70
01-21-2011, 05:33 PM
The problem with loot isn't that I run something 150 times to make an item, because I do that.

Its all those people with level 20 characters who admit they don't run epic because they play their capped toon maybe 5 hours a week and think that means they can never make an epic item.

It doesn't even matter whether they can make an epic item - they don't think they can, and so they don't try.

Many people will never have the ingredients for multiple dual shard shroud items, either, but they still try for it because they think it might be possible, between trading and running the shroud when they can, to add up to it. They don't do the same with epic because they think they'll never pull the scroll.

As I said before you are more speaking of yourself. Most people that dislike epic run it once or twice and find it boring or invalidates their character in someway (can't assasinate on a rogue for instance) and do not play it again.

EyeRekon
01-21-2011, 05:40 PM
The endgame epic players aren't making turbine their money, so their focus has always been more on the other crowds which generated a lot more revenue..

I disagree on that point. I believe Epic runners actually drive sales in things like SP pots, Res Cakes, & Shrines. I cannot imagine (m)any non-Epic quests that would motivate me to use any of those. So while I wouldn't think people would purchase adventure packs or VIP subs for Epics, I do think Epics fuel a great deal of microtransactions.

Solmage
01-21-2011, 05:47 PM
Or maybe that's it, because GH is popular enough everyone already buys it so they diverted their attention to new areas that they can make money selling.

::ding ding ding::

Why spend money into something that's already a best seller. It is NOT going to increase sales if they make this epic, and the player base will balk at any attempt to sell the epic portion separately from the regular pack. So, no cash incentive to do this.

Incidentally, I wouldn't be surprised if this is the reason they haven't gone ahead and re-polished the desert epics so it isn't such a cluster-shtuff of items all over the place and incredibly annoying and frustrating to farm epic items out of: It already sells well.

Solmage
01-21-2011, 05:48 PM
I disagree on that point. I believe Epic runners actually drive sales in things like SP pots, Res Cakes, & Shrines. I cannot imagine (m)any non-Epic quests that would motivate me to use any of those. So while I wouldn't think people would purchase adventure packs or VIP subs for Epics, I do think Epics fuel a great deal of microtransactions.

I think that the fact a given pack can be run again for good (sometimes excellent) loot once you're lvl 20 is nontheless an important factor when trying to decide if you're going to spend some hard earned turbine points into a lowbie area.

EyeRekon
01-21-2011, 07:08 PM
::ding ding ding::

Why spend money into something that's already a best seller. It is NOT going to increase sales if they make this epic, and the player base will balk at any attempt to sell the epic portion separately from the regular pack. So, no cash incentive to do this.

This is true now since TR arrived. Prior to TR, Epic were introduced explicitly for the purpose of revitalizing enjoyment of existing packs that are no longer level-appropriate for the ever-swelling population of capped toons.

So in the past, adding Epics to bestsellers was still a good idea. Now.. not so much. You're right.

knightgf
01-21-2011, 09:33 PM
If they redo epic, then maybe it would be worth considering getting gianthold for me, since I am mostly interested in epic content(Not too much the old though). As for the current epic if it were to be released like that, I wouldn't buy it for several reasons:



The stunning price. 995 TP for this? I thought it was bad enough I threw away points buying Necro IV, but even half off, it's pretty pricey for...what? Madstone boots, dreamsplitter and few other named loot that your not likely to get even if you grind it all to heck?
The legendary epic difficulty. I thought it was bad enough doing Wizard King on epic(Which I will NEVER do again because its the longest epic if not instance ever), but this would be even worse not just in length, but difficulty. I can't imagine what they would do to crucible on epic *Shudder*.
The low drop rates. If the epic versions of the current loot is actually good(Instead of being lame), then good luck! No seriously, good luck! The only people that are gonna see epic madstone boots or some of the other good loot is if they either kiss their guildmates behind, get so lucky they'd be able to shoot through 10 axes with a bow + arrow in real-life, or someone casts wish or miracle(Too bad it doesn't exist but still). As if the drop rates aren't bad enough already...

The only way I would even THINK about buying gianthold for epic is if they:



Redo the challenge. The idea of having to defeat many mobs with more HP than you could imagine is unbelievable. I say trim down the mobs by a LOT or add many weaker mobs instead that are a few levels below 20 and a few strong mobs. We shall call them 'fallowers' as they are lead by some of the epic mobs out there. It is somewhat reminiscent of PnP gameplay as well, having to fight many more weaker fallowers and a few strong leaders. In short, a epic chain of command or strength level would look something like this:


Raid monster
|
Boss Monster
|
Mini-Boss monster
|
Epic warded monster
|
Normal monster


A normal monster is a normal monster of its level, period. A epic-warded monster will be a few levels higher than a normal monster and includes the epic ward placed on it as well as a normal colored title above its head. The rest is self-explanatory.


Granted, my attempt to try suggesting how to redo epic challenges probably wasn't the best, but I tried. Moving right along:




Increase the drop rates. No seriously, we need to tone down how much of a grind epic gear is. I will admit, it should definately be a challenge to try getting epic gear, but it shouldn't be as long as walking across the nevada desert. The chance of getting a scroll should definately increase in a large percentage, while the end reward loot should be redone totally.

In a end reward loot for epic, the Minimum level for items must be level 19 for items and 20 for weapons and armor. Period. No 18 for weapons or lower. In addition, every time a epic is completed, at least 1-2 seals should be in the reward list, in order to give a better chance at obtaining epic components. If items or seals fail to impress, the bare minimum for renown should be a impressive trophy for increasing the motive to be of a higher level in gaining renown. Another perk to add for renown would be a new renown reward titled "Favor of the Gods."

The description for this favor would be "Even the gods have taken notice of your superhuman deeds, and decided to reward you with their blessings. This reward grants your guild 3000 renown." The amount of renown gained from this is indeed a powerful reward from the gods to give. Epic exclusive.





In short, gianthold would definitely not be ready for epic in its current version, but I would be more than happy to wait and see what the new version of epic would bring. If epic works well and is implemented in gianthold, then maybe...yes maybe...it would be 100% worth the 995 TP. It definitely wouldn't be the pack I would buy if I had only one choice due to its lack of content through 17-19, but it would be a pack worth investing in once one is ready for epic content. Let us hope for the best.

Shade
01-21-2011, 10:08 PM
Getting off topic but oh well, here's my thoughts on the whole epic isssue:

The major problem I see with epic is the mis-classification of what it is. And Turbines failed attempts at trying to make it what everyone wants it to be.

Epic can't be what everyone wants it to be.
Because some players like myself enjoy an insane challenge and a long dungeon.

Others (such as knightgf) Want short quests and a low challenge, but at least something interested they can run on their level20 that was a bit tougher then the lower levels)

We as players should both be equally important. But if epic is only 1 thing, it can't please us both.

And the thing is, Epic isn't that.
Epic was primarily a difficulty setting. A setting beyond elite, that is per the description writing by Turbine "for the best of the best'

The best of the best. That is by it's defintion a very small subset of players. Such a small subset of players infact that no head of marketing in his right mind would dedicated development time towards.
Thats why epic is broken. Not because of issues with immunities or monsters hitpoints.. Because it is (was) designed as a difficulty setting, and not a level scaling.

What epic should have been:

A level scaling setting.

Check the box, you get the dungeon scaled to level 20 (well CR25, but designed for level20s)
But you still have your normal hard and elite settings.

Epic Normal - Would be a bit easier then it is now. Youd still see the very low saves on monsters.. But perhaps less immunities and a lot less hitpoints.
Epic Hard - Would be similar to it is now, but epic minion is -5 saves and not -10
Epic Elite - Would be as the original epic was designed. Hard as balls, insane saves, insanely hard boss fights, what the crazy hard cores want.

Far as the loot goes.. Well like it or not - Endgame MMOs = Grind. Massive Grind. They have to be. If there's nothing to grind, the players get bored and quit. Grind is a nessesary evil.

So the loot would need to take a long time to get. I'd recommend a more consistant and less random apporach, but a similar time of 1+ month of farming for your first epic. Just add a token turn in system to get the exact scroll/seal/shard your missing for a fairly high token cost (balanced against the rarity/strength of said item)

Reasons to run Epic hard and Epic Elite?

It can't be loot. Designing 3 sets of loot would be too much work. And giving much higher droprates would just lead to too many complaints from the more casual players.

I'd set it up as something more ambitious:

Quests completed on epic hard or epic elite grant "Epic Renown" (Epic Elite would grant twice as much renown per run)

After a player has acquired say 100 epic renonwn, he can then unlock the ultimate challenge: A legendary raid.

A raid with difficulty beyond the original levels of the abbot or the titan. Something it takes the most hard core group months to figure out how to even begin to beat.

This raid could only be accessed once a month per leader, and failure would mean a week long timer for all - but that player could take along anyone he wanted that had say at least 25 epic renown to spend. If the raid was completed - the raid would be locked out for the entire server for 1 week and a massive global message would go out to the entire server stating the victory. (actually perhaps 6 days, giving another group a shot at the raid while the first group is still all on timer)

Win or lose the epic renown would be lost (100 for the leader, 25 for everyone else), to encourage those players to keep running Epic hard/elite, and not epic normal, and add a massive penalty for failure as there should be for the highest difficulty setting.

It would be mostly for bragging rights.. But there would also be legendary loot. Not a ton better then what people who just run "epic normal" would have, perhaps exactly the same stats but come in completed forms - and just have unique appearances. So thoses players can show off that they are the insane hardcore players in appearance, if not in power.

Perhaps unique titles could be given out too for fun.

sirgog
01-22-2011, 05:20 AM
/signed to the OP. At least get the existing Tor onto Lamannia for serious testing (there may be bugs that weren't apparent in Shade's run - IIRC he only fought the black dragon and didn't experience the white or blue dragon encounters, and it's possible that the White Dragon's giant has a bugged spell that seriously corrupts 28 point build characters, or something like that.



When we were informed that the update 7 and 8 questchain would not have epic mode, the developers commented that they did not intend to release more epic mode until they had revisited it and adjusted some of the things they feel are problematic with it.

One of the areas where epic is most widely felt to not be working is the desert, where the odds of getting specific scrolls and shards can be incredibly poor. Every epic content released after epic dragon (which doesnt have this problem due to having 1/4 the loot) has addressed these potential problems in different ways (guaranteed shard chests, seals in other endchests, etc), some of which have been more effective than others and seem clearly like Turbine attempts to find workable ways to avoid the desert problem in the future.

However, Gianthold is very similar to the desert in that it has a cosmic ton of items. It's my personal opinion (and this is certainly unconfirmed) that Turbine has chosen not to release epic gianthold until they can find a way to distribute the loot that does not contribute to the frustrations involve in desert explorer shards. Gianthold tor alone has more named loot than any other epic module besides the desert, to say nothing of what happens after you include the flagging quests and the raid.

I would not expect to see them release this content until they've found a solution for what they view as epic's overarching problems (in particular, extremely bad random distributions of loot and repetitive, stunning blow+masshold+nothing else play).

If just the Tor was released, they could put eight shards in each dragon chest (one for each of the seven named items that drops in that chest, plus one Shard of the Blue Dragon, etc) and give each individual shard a 3% drop rate. Then put the seals for the 21 items, plus four premade min level 20 named items of a lower power level than the best epic items, in the Gatekeeper's chest (with each having a 2% drop rate).

Every run, players would have a sense of progress. They might not get a shard or seal, but they *will* (almost) always see a party member loot one.


As for the Mass Hold-based gameplay - easily solved. Reduce mob (i.e. everything with the Minion debuff) hitpoints by 30-50%, then alter the duration of all stun and hold effects to 50% of what it is now, and consider giving the mobs +25% Fortification. It's a quick and dirty fix, but it makes sure that Mass Hold remains a useful tool, but it no longer outclass every other strategy.

After that quick and dirty improvement, the devs should ask for feedback from players. They should get it from the players that have 200+ epic tokens, and also the players that have tried Epic and decided it isn't for them, and also the majority of level 20s, who are somewhere in-between, and they should ask us to look at each individual quest and give feedback. Which mobs and bosses are too easy be entertaining (e.g. Crateos, Slomnuc)? Which are frustratingly difficult (a casual player might answer Turigulon, Raiyum, the Demon of the Frenzied Deep or the Sahauguin High Priestess). Which are just dull to fight (Crateos, Angog the Champion)?

karnokvolrath
01-22-2011, 05:37 AM
This may be my conspiracy theory nature but i wouldnt dobt if they have like 10 epic/new packs already done and just havnt released them because they want a backlog so they can always come though on there "new content every update" promise.

As far as the content goes id love to see all of GH epic, including the walkups. Id love to see all the items epic.

I love GH and there is so much that could be done, but i also fear you are right in that they could totally hose it over by making subpar items that dillutte and irritate the playerbase like the desert.

I would hate too see all those great GH items turned to **** where people only care about 3 of them regardless of class, playstyle, ext.

Then again this seems to be the problem with all epic items, there are a few that are AWSOME and the rest i wouldnt keep if they where standard raid loot.

Shade
02-13-2011, 02:33 AM
This may be my conspiracy theory nature but i wouldnt dobt if they have like 10 epic/new packs already done and just havnt released them because they want a backlog so they can always come though on there "new content every update" promise.


Most likely they do.

During the "play any quest on epic" bug on lamannia I checked out a lot of quests. Many of them featured a lot of correctly scaled monsters. Most of these were just copy/pastes of epic monsters from other quests to match the ones in said quest - but some I could not recognize from other epics, so it appeared they did work on lots of monster profiles, and put in some code to have them ready for any quest.. Just a matter of doing the loot.

Epic Red Willow was kinda fun.. The scorpions all scaled correctly and really kicked my butt heh. As did the odd goblin. some trolls and bugbears too, tho not all of them.
(Note gianthold tor was not part of the "play any quest on epic" bug. It was a fully completed dungeon release to live.)

Given this fact, I imagine they could release dozens if not hundreds of epic quests in the span of a month or 2 after the intial bit of work getting most of the generic profiles setup. Seems to be very little work to do so - simply scale up all generic foes (most being already done for many quests), then work on each quests named foes and loot. Only thing that remains is figuring out how to distribute loot for some of the original quests that lack adventure packs.

Epic Redwillow:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7008/redwillo.jpg

sirgog
02-13-2011, 03:06 AM
Most likely they do.

During the "play any quest on epic" bug on lamannia I checked out a lot of quests. Many of them featured a lot of correctly scaled monsters. Most of these were just copy/pastes of epic monsters from other quests to match the ones in said quest - but some I could not recognize from other epics, so it appeared they did work on lots of monster profiles, and put in some code to have them ready for any quest.. Just a matter of doing the loot.

Epic Red Willow was kinda fun.. The scorpions all scaled correctly and really kicked my butt heh. As did the odd goblin. some trolls and bugbears too, tho not all of them.
(Note gianthold tor was not part of the "play any quest on epic" bug. It was a fully completed dungeon release to live.)

Given this fact, I imagine they could release dozens if not hundreds of epic quests in the span of a month or 2 after the intial bit of work getting most of the generic profiles setup. Seems to be very little work to do so - simply scale up all generic foes (most being already done for many quests), then work on each quests named foes and loot. Only thing that remains is figuring out how to distribute loot for some of the original quests that lack adventure packs.

Epic Redwillow:
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/7008/redwillo.jpg

There's more to making epics than just scaling mob stats and giving casters Heighten and Maximize.

Here's a few other changes in epics:

Small other changes:
Claw of Vulkoor - replace Nesting Scorpions with Healing Scorpions
Into the Deep - remove option to get extra help in the Priestess fight

Big changes:
Wiz-King - Raiyum spawns wraiths that deal huge damage and inflict healing immunity curses
Devil Assault: Totally different bosses spawn on Epic (compared to Elite, which is otherwise similar to Epic, norm/hard have different mobs altogether)
VON1/2/3, ADQ1 - extra adds in boss fights (technically traps in ADQ1)

Then there's other things to consider - if mobs are scaled up by a formula only, there is a risk they could become invincible. Consider what Taeron Riemond (Running with the Devils) would be like if his healing amp was increased from 3x base (on norm to elite) up to, say, 45x. He'd probably be impossible. Likewise had they been made stun immune, even the Healing Scorps in Claw might have been unkillable if you clustered enough together.

Four20
02-13-2011, 03:14 AM
Rest of gianthold epic:
Yea I ran some of the other giant hold epic and it wasn't complete like the TOR. But they had a freakin year to complete it if that was the marketing plan.

1 year minus dev time to create and maintain the mabar festival, the new pirate festival, 2 new lordsmarch plaza packs.

It just seems that Turbine has Epics on the backburner. . .

/signed

I want moar epicS!

Four20
02-13-2011, 03:40 AM
1: It's frequently been too much harder than the next step down in content, if specific tactics aren't used
2: Actually making epic items is something that's far easier to do for people who play a ton or have many characters, and very difficult for people with smaller amounts of playtime. Its not uncommon to make no epic items for 2-4 weeks in a new set of epic content, and then readily become able to make 5-8 of them in a day or two due to how epic items are created.
3: In their quest to make epic content more challenging and to avoid cheesy tactics that avoid actually fighting monsters, epic content permits a fairly narrow range of successful strategies and even successful character builds, which further decreases people's desire to do it. More complaints are about how X or Y defining class feature is worthless in epic than there are about how hard epic items are to make!

Sooo, you're saying. . .
1 - It's too hard
2 - It takes too long
3 - It takes you out of your comfort zone

but. . .

1 - It's Epic!
2 - It's Epic!
3 - It's Epic!

No, Turbine will never hand out epic mats like free water. It's just not going to happen. You want the best gear in the game, you better bet it's going to be more of a grind than anything else in the game. ANYTHING. Whether you're grinding for shroud mats, +3/+4 tomes, etc. Expect to grind waaaaay more than you did for those.

Everyone is begging Turbine for more Plat sinks to fix inflation, yet they complain and moan about Epics using up too many resources(this should be fixed by the whole party contributing plat/sp pots. . .not just the cleric).

skepticalsoul
02-13-2011, 03:53 AM
The problem with loot isn't that I run something 150 times to make an item, because I do that.

Its all those people with level 20 characters who admit they don't run epic because they play their capped toon maybe 5 hours a week and think that means they can never make an epic item.

It doesn't even matter whether they can make an epic item - they don't think they can, and so they don't try.

Many people will never have the ingredients for multiple dual shard shroud items, either, but they still try for it because they think it might be possible, between trading and running the shroud when they can, to add up to it. They don't do the same with epic because they think they'll never pull the scroll.

People who complain about epics are just bad players. Get better, we were all bad at one point.

Shade
02-13-2011, 08:34 AM
There's more to making epics than just scaling mob stats and giving casters Heighten and Maximize.


Tell that the devs that epic'd chronoscope. Has nothing to make it even resemble a high lvl raid, let alone an epic. No lock out. No tactics. No anything we're grown used to for high lvl raids.

While re-doing some mechanics to increse the challenge is the ideal way to make epics.. It's not always done, and not a neccesary thing, just an added bonus .

And the monsters weren't simple "formula scale up" but rather completed version, complete with new spells and special attacks. They have the basic template for most creatures in place. Special creatures like Eladrin do indeed need to be done - I actulaly ran running with the devils epic, and nothing much at all was scaled, save the air elemental and the devils.

Rapagun
02-13-2011, 08:39 AM
I d love to see epic GH !
/signed

stille_nacht
02-13-2011, 08:51 AM
Unlock epic Tor!

/signed

mmm epic blue dragonscale, epic black dragonscale :]

we only have to kill 3 epic dragons in a row....

Aeolwind
02-13-2011, 10:16 AM
People who complain about epics are just bad players. Get better, we were all bad at one point.

Not really, some of us don't put up with shoddy game mechanics delivered in a not fun box, wrapped with a grindy bow.

-I'm not a fan of 1 spell being the make/break for an entire subset of content. (Mass Hold)
-I'm not a fan of mobs having virtual or implicit blanket immunities to two subsets of a spell casters arsenal. (any spell that does damage or insta kills)
-I'm not a fan of having to repeat quests dozens of time and see no progress towards a goal. (Self explanatory)

Certainly a fight/encounter having a schtick that requires hold specifically would be acceptable. While other forms of CC might work, they are so far below par of hold in epics due to the hit points of the mobs that it is virtually a requirement. With a scant few exceptions. This is bad implementation of mechanics.

Mobs are virtually immune to spell caster damage output due to the qty of HP. I've heard dozens of casters lament this fact. When every mob has that many HP, the spell point recovery and rest mechanic of DDO just doesn't cut it. And they are flat immune to insta-death spells aside from TTS removing at least 8 other spells from the equation. This is bad mechanic design.

Even in raids that often yield 0 loot to anyone on elite (Piker's Fate for example), you still make a step towards your 20th and a small nugget of pixelated goodness. Not so much in epic. No loot? In 20 runs? Run it 20 more times, see if you get lucky! And we mean lottery ticket level of lucky. This is bad reward design.

All in all, while the brass rings are dope, the 2 mile wide lake of rubbing alcohol filled with razor wire and salt that I have to swim through to get that ring isn't worth it. I "play" to have "fun". And all of the above sounds like a bad job & frustration.

sirgog
02-13-2011, 10:46 AM
Not really, some of us don't put up with shoddy game mechanics delivered in a not fun box, wrapped with a grindy bow.

-I'm not a fan of 1 spell being the make/break for an entire subset of content. (Mass Hold)
-I'm not a fan of mobs having virtual or implicit blanket immunities to two subsets of a spell casters arsenal. (any spell that does damage or insta kills)
-I'm not a fan of having to repeat quests dozens of time and see no progress towards a goal. (Self explanatory)

Certainly a fight/encounter having a schtick that requires hold specifically would be acceptable. While other forms of CC might work, they are so far below par of hold in epics due to the hit points of the mobs that it is virtually a requirement. With a scant few exceptions. This is bad implementation of mechanics.

Mobs are virtually immune to spell caster damage output due to the qty of HP. I've heard dozens of casters lament this fact. When every mob has that many HP, the spell point recovery and rest mechanic of DDO just doesn't cut it. And they are flat immune to insta-death spells aside from TTS removing at least 8 other spells from the equation. This is bad mechanic design.

Even in raids that often yield 0 loot to anyone on elite (Piker's Fate for example), you still make a step towards your 20th and a small nugget of pixelated goodness. Not so much in epic. No loot? In 20 runs? Run it 20 more times, see if you get lucky! And we mean lottery ticket level of lucky. This is bad reward design.

All in all, while the brass rings are dope, the 2 mile wide lake of rubbing alcohol filled with razor wire and salt that I have to swim through to get that ring isn't worth it. I "play" to have "fun". And all of the above sounds like a bad job & frustration.


Anyone that thinks Mass Hold is the only viable tactic in Epics is just dead wrong.

It's the fastest way to kill things, yes. But Mass Suggestion/Symbol: Persuasion and ignoring both the charmed mobs and everything they are fighting works just as well. 3SP Resistable Dance neutralises any epic mob long enough to kill it at leisure, and Irresistable Dance can do the same. Even Hypnotism works (Hypno a mob, zerg past it), or Fascinate.

You can tell a mediocre caster by the fact that they flat-out refuse to run VON4 epic because their holds don't work there, or if they run it they pike. Decent casters are a powerhouse in that quest.

Noone really made any heavy use of Mass Hold in epics until the VON series was epic-ified. Hell, I led the server-first epic Devil Assault on Khyber and we did not use Mass Hold much at all (that was to conserve SP, now we do use Mass Hold more as casters are usually willing to drink a couple of mana pots to shave 10 minutes off the completion time).


I play to have fun too, which is why I run a LOT more Epics than I do Shrouds or TRs. Levelling a 36 point build really feels like a repetitive job. Running epics (other than the easiest ones) is different each time. Epics could be improved, but they are a hell of a lot more fun than beating down 15 12000hp portals that don't fight back, then surrounding a Pit Fiend, autoattacking and casting Mass Heals on cooldown, then getting a large bone for the trouble. (Part 2 can be entertaining at level)

k1ngp1n
02-13-2011, 11:09 AM
Anyone that thinks Mass Hold is the only viable tactic in Epics is just dead wrong.

It's the fastest way to kill things, yes. But Mass Suggestion/Symbol: Persuasion and ignoring both the charmed mobs and everything they are fighting works just as well. 3SP Resistable Dance neutralises any epic mob long enough to kill it at leisure, and Irresistable Dance can do the same. Even Hypnotism works (Hypno a mob, zerg past it), or Fascinate.

You can tell a mediocre caster by the fact that they flat-out refuse to run VON4 epic because their holds don't work there, or if they run it they pike. Decent casters are a powerhouse in that quest.

Noone really made any heavy use of Mass Hold in epics until the VON series was epic-ified. Hell, I led the server-first epic Devil Assault on Khyber and we did not use Mass Hold much at all (that was to conserve SP, now we do use Mass Hold more as casters are usually willing to drink a couple of mana pots to shave 10 minutes off the completion time).


Though, to also be fair, early on Stunning worked a lot differently and was a better option to achieve the same goal of auto-crit.

sirgog
02-13-2011, 11:28 AM
Though, to also be fair, early on Stunning worked a lot differently and was a better option to achieve the same goal of auto-crit.

It took players a while to realise the power of the old Weighted 5% weapons in epics, it was at least 3-4 weeks until the standard practice was to make heavy use of stunning and/or earthgrab effects. Prior to that groups would straight-up beatdown mobs and Irresistable Dance the more dangerous ones.

I miss those days, when mobs in epics really fought back.

Shade
03-23-2011, 09:49 PM
I miss those days, when mobs in epics really fought back.

me too.

Give us tor. Don't cut it's hp in half.

Give us original tor. Give us 10k hp tor.
We insane grizzled veterans deserve a bone. Toss us one.

The new players are getting there new "MORE EASY" more casaul epics..

Tor for us.

Please.

Purgatory
03-23-2011, 09:59 PM
Epic GH would be nice it keep me entertained for awhile instead of trying to collect one million desert tokens because im bored lol

Shade
08-31-2012, 05:43 AM
This topic seems relevant again, since Fernando said something

planning substantial changes and some nice surprises for when this is finally available to players

Maybe in another year from now I can say thanks for finally enabling it.

I mean, its only been 2 years, 7 months and 3 weeks since I beat tor epic. Must be getting close amiright?

Dexol
08-31-2012, 05:49 AM
This topic seems relevant again, since Fernando said something


Maybe in another year from now I can say thanks for finally enabling it.

I mean, its only been 2 years, 7 months and 3 weeks since I beat tor epic. Must be getting close amiright?

But the Timer on epic tor is 3 years, of course you could always pay to bypass.......:rolleyes:

silinteresting
08-31-2012, 06:36 AM
signed, signed and signed again. epic tor wow my mouth is watering at that prospect. op im jelous as hell youve run this. my only question would be how do they release it and make money(always the bottom line).

janave
09-01-2012, 04:37 AM
me too.

Give us tor. Don't cut it's hp in half.

Give us original tor. Give us 10k hp tor.
We insane grizzled veterans deserve a bone. Toss us one.

The new players are getting there new "MORE EASY" more casaul epics..

Tor for us.

Please.

Hmm, this is cool until our Wizards reach the *new* mark in Necro DCs. See, im running around with deathblock gear from lvl6-9 (depends), so dont even try to call a monster epic with 40CR and no Deathblock.

Interestingly enough most of the players crying for lack of challenge also play the most twinked out minmaxd DC casters with cheesy area of effect instantkills. Getting the highest tiers of powercreep and choosing the most powerful toons by class, will eliminate a big part of the challenge. In this case dungeon knowledge will help you too, so that should be accounted adjusting up the challenge.

We could have nice stuff if people would stop crying after their instantkills in epics, and maybe learn to play their class, other than using the single most cheesefest PRE in the game.

Im all for it btw. Bring it, up the monster encounter tho, redesign dungeon alert so we can fight hordes of really tough monsters that use tactics, formations, covers, buff and heal each other etc.

If they do it well enough 450-550TPs is all good for the upgrade.

janave
09-01-2012, 04:56 AM
Heres an idea how to make money from it :).

Put in a secret room, keyed access only. Key is a rare drop. 3-5% in the end chest. Also available in the store for 100-150pts.

Secret room is an Extreme Epic Challenge. You get the warning message, and an ominous song in the background.

The room contains a huge pile of treasure hoard with a dragon sleeping on it.

The dragon is the highest CR(50+) purple named enemy in the entire game. He summons undead armored skeleton hordes in waves to spread the love :). He also dominates yuanti archers with heavy acid dot arrows on ceirtain hard to reach high spots.

The fight:

I. Someone needs to walk up to the dragon and initiate a dialog. This one is better be beefy or just a party martir as out of 6 talk options 5 will trigger an auto aggro and a special breath attack for unsane(1,5k+) random elemental damage.
II. The dragon moves, and attacks freely, no cheesy stuck spot like in the Well quest.
III. The dragon has stacking rage ability, this allows him to get stronger the more damage he takes per second.
IV. He gets all the cruel stomping, and tail whipping abilities we seen so far, except they hit harder.
V. If a caster stacks dots on him the next huge cone aoe breath is centered on said caster.

Upon defeating the dragon you get 50%, yes 50% chance at a dragonscale. This dragonscale is vastly valuable and the best armor evar comes from it.