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View Full Version : Replace "Kill Count" with "Damage Count"



stille_nacht
01-17-2011, 09:33 AM
It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.

I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.

I also think that this would be a relatively easy coding change, as there is already a combat log telling me everything that is happening, and a change to program that just adds that damage up doesnt seem too complex. I may be wrong though. (if this is a complex coding change, then it isnt really worth it)

Aussir
01-17-2011, 09:44 AM
/not signed

We don't need more sources of griefing and segregation.

If you want to know your damage, use the filters for the combat window and leave only what you want to appear there.

stille_nacht
01-17-2011, 09:47 AM
/not signed

We don't need more sources of griefing and segregation.

If you want to know your damage, use the filters for the combat window and leave only what you want to appear there.


how would it affect griefing and segregation? o-o. Dont really understand how you can grief someone if it is actually true that they did, say, half the damage you did as the same class...

also, how do i delete this thread? i have just realized i already suggested this a while back

Aussir
01-17-2011, 09:54 AM
how would it affect griefing and segregation? o-o. Dont really understand how you can grief someone if it is actually true that they did, say, half the damage you did as the same class...

also, how do i delete this thread? i have just realized i already suggested this a while back

Simple... not everyone has top notch equipment, min/max builds, epic items, raid items, GS items, etc, etc.
So, that difference in damage can be from a lot of things, from different builds to different items equipped.
This would lead to people assuming that X person is doing less damage because "they suck" and pull them into DNG lists or just grill them because they don't have "super duper sayan goku god of everything build" that he/she "should have!!111ONEONE".

Do you really want this to happen? It's bad as it is already with MyDDO (and all the idiots that don't realize it's broken on top of it).
Do you really want "LULZ! You only did <insert damage>! You n00bz! You suxorz!!11ONEONELEVEN.

Again, /not signed.

rokes
01-17-2011, 09:54 AM
how would it affect griefing and segregation? o-o. Dont really understand how you can grief someone if it is actually true that they did, say, half the damage you did as the same class...

also, how do i delete this thread? i have just realized i already suggested this a while back

Ohhh I can almost see the twelve-year-old "Omg I did twice the dmg than you lolololol"

so, /not signed

pasterqb
01-17-2011, 09:55 AM
I was all for getting rid of it or changing it but then i realized they need to change it all. Conquest is 25% xp. Assuming Vorpals on IQ Elite or Devs making wrong assumptions on how much dmg should = Conquest would you want to risk losing all that xp?

/not signed

Lord_WC
01-17-2011, 09:57 AM
I would totally sign if you could see your own damage count or better yet your dps. Those spreadsheets are painful, why can't we have such an important figure easily?

krud
01-17-2011, 10:01 AM
Since we are copying and rehashing old threads again:

I think a better idea would be to make our character's head size grow with damage count. It could inflate just a little bit with each hp of damage. No need to check the quest log, you can see it progress as you play. By the end of the quest the one with the biggest head wins.

FuzzyDuck81
01-17-2011, 10:02 AM
Hypothetical scenario: barbarian zergs ahead into a room, gathering a massive crowd of enemies & manages to cut down a couple through his admittedly massive dps capabilities before being splatted. A minute later, a cleric & wizard follow behind playing more sensibly enter the room with that crowd of mobs, and kill everything in about 5secs flat with a combination of wail & implosion. Result: the barbarian still comes out top of the chart because they actually did physical damage. Because everything was instakilled through death effects, wizard & cleric are supposedly useless as they did no damage.

The way the game works, individual contribution is a tricky one to put precise measurement on because of the number of various skills, abilities etc. available to the different classes & builds. Whos contributed more - the dual greensteel lit2 dps fighter type who hits things fast & kills lots of things.. or the monk & wizard who instead of concentrating on damage instead flip round between different enemies, stunning/holding them to provide autocrits to LET the fighter to tear them down quickly? Or the healer who keeps everyone alive to keep doing all that?

Probably the only part of the xp stats screen that really reflects an individuals contribution in a straightforward way is traps disabled - only someone with rogue levels can disable traps, therefore if traps have been disabled (including the bonus xp associated with it) that rogue-capable person has made a measurable contribution in a way that only THEY are capable of.

Lord_WC
01-17-2011, 10:02 AM
Since we are copying and rehashing old threads again:

I think a better idea would be to make our character's head size grow with damage count. It could inflate just a little bit with each hp of damage. No need to check the quest log, you can see it progress as you play. By the end of the quest the one with the biggest head wins.

Not working, half orcs get a ... head start :D

Aussir
01-17-2011, 10:02 AM
I would totally sign if you could see your own damage count or better yet your dps. Those spreadsheets are painful, why can't we have such an important figure easily?

Try using the filters on the combat window. I have no problem seeing how much damage I'm dishing out per hit after I filtered out a lot of unnecessary blurb that was appearing there.

Aussir
01-17-2011, 10:03 AM
I think a better idea would be to make our character's head size grow with damage count.
Which head are we talking about here? :D

Oh, and at the end of the quest, the biggest head gets this:

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a205/alexisdorian/epeen.jpg

Iaga
01-17-2011, 10:04 AM
It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.


I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.

How is the first quote different from the second - both of them are simply waving epeen around.

I'd love to see how you justify to the guy who healed a raid or caster who cc'd an epic that because their damage count was low they didn't "help the party ... " :rolleyes:

Lord_WC
01-17-2011, 10:05 AM
Try using the filters on the combat window. I have no problem seeing how much damage I'm dishing out per hit after I filtered out a lot of unnecessary blurb that was appearing there.

Sure, only problem:

- the combat window logs only a few hundred lines. For proper dps (and I mean damage per second) figure I really would like to hit stuff for an hour at least.
- combat log cannot be exported to have a script process it.
- I still don't know the exact swing/second while dynamically using haste boosts/buffs/getting debuffed. I want a field figure not a sterile number which actually does not say anything.

Hercanic
01-17-2011, 10:07 AM
Kill Count is directly related with the Conquest bonus, so I don't see it getting replaced.

I agree with the sentiment that a lot of responders have, that such information would be construed negatively and have a divisive impact on gaming comradery.

Instead, how about a Personal Scorecard only visible to you? It could contain a wide variety of statistics, from damage done, healing done, SP spent, health lost, hits avoided, damage reduced, potions quaffed, item damage incurred, distance ran, saves made/failed, enemy saves made/failed, etc.

You could use this information to see how well your character is improving over the levels or with new gear, how they stack against your other characters, or, if and only if you so choose to share this information with your party, how you measure up against others.

Aussir
01-17-2011, 10:10 AM
Sure, only problem:

- the combat window logs only a few hundred lines. For proper dps (and I mean damage per second) figure I really would like to hit stuff for an hour at least.
- combat log cannot be exported to have a script process it.
- I still don't know the exact swing/second while dynamically using haste boosts/buffs/getting debuffed. I want a field figure not a sterile number which actually does not say anything.

Have you tried calculators? Maybe it's what you're after.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=195421
http://www.afterlifeguild.org/Thott/ddo/
http://ddo.undefined.com/

Lord_WC
01-17-2011, 10:12 AM
Have you tried this calculator? Maybe it's what you're after.
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=195421

Yes, thanks for your help, but this is what I was meaning under sterile number. And i find it a bit confusing as well :)

Edit: checked the 3rd, and strangely it gives higher dps for 11 BAB compared to 16, I think its an error. Ill check the second, thanks for your help again!

Aussir
01-17-2011, 10:14 AM
Yes, thanks for your help, but this is what I was meaning under sterile number. And i find it a bit confusing as well :)

I updated the post with a couple more links.
Unfortunately it's the best that we can have. There have been several requests for exportable data but they all fell in deaf ears.

Phidius
01-17-2011, 10:15 AM
It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.
...

What is a barb doing to get kill count if they're not using DPS? Casters with Wall of Fire in the lower level quests aren't doing DPS?


...
I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless)
...

With this reasoning, the best party would be composed of 6-12 raging barbarians, correct? Who needs a healer, right?


how would it affect griefing and segregation? o-o. Dont really understand how you can grief someone if it is actually true that they did, say, half the damage you did as the same class...

Proving that you are correct with data does not remove the fact that something is griefing. Griefing has nothing to do with whether you are right or not.

Urvine
01-17-2011, 10:16 AM
I'd say scrap individual kill count all together. that's half the reason people run off and zerg. displaying damage would be no different and even more inaccurate save for low levels. if not that then simply credit the kill to the majority damage dealer, or insta killer. would make things a little more accurate but would still have people zerging off to raise their E-peen. so my vote is scrap it.

Irongutz2000
01-17-2011, 10:20 AM
/not signed

Kill count is useless an so would a new addtion to it, i would rather see them focus onn more content/fixing other bugs in the game, than working onn this.

Marcus-Hawkeye
01-17-2011, 10:22 AM
Instead, how about a Personal Scorecard only visible to you? It could contain a wide variety of statistics, from damage done, healing done, SP spent, health lost, hits avoided, damage reduced, potions quaffed, item damage incurred, distance ran, saves made/failed, enemy saves made/failed, etc.

This is a good idea, but a much better one would be if they just allowed logging the combat log to a file that someone could write a parser for, that way it's on us, as a community to develope our own tools.

Urvine
01-17-2011, 10:24 AM
What is a barb doing to get kill count if they're not using DPS? Casters with Wall of Fire in the lower level quests aren't doing DPS?



barbarians (2hf) hit for large sums of single blow damage so they're more likely to get a killing blow. casters tend to kill things before anyone else gets to them as well as dealing area of effect damage, increasing their killing blows. This in no way displays thier superior dps, simply their higher probability of a killing blow.

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 10:26 AM
I updated the post with a couple more links.
Unfortunately it's the best that we can have. There have been several requests for exportable data but they all fell in deaf ears.

It's not the best we could have...

We could have both a DPS meter and a DPS count. Simply filtering combat is a terrible solution.

I mean, how fun would it be to have a small number, much like your FPS rate that just showed your DPS spiking and falling.

Lord_WC
01-17-2011, 10:28 AM
barbarians (2hf) hit for large sums of single blow damage so they're more likely to get a killing blow. casters tend to kill things before anyone else gets to them as well as dealing area of effect damage, increasing their killing blows. This in no way displays thier superior dps, simply their higher probability of a killing blow.

In the long run because of the varying hp of mobs and your damage (to a lesser extent) only dps is a factor in landing the killing blow (if we are not talking about kill stealing). This is not a divison problem.

Aussir
01-17-2011, 10:28 AM
It's not the best we could have...

We could have both a DPS meter and a DPS count. Simply filtering combat is a terrible solution.

I mean, how fun would it be to have a small number, much like your FPS rate that just showed your DPS spiking and falling.

It's the best we can have since we have no other tools available. Of course that having data to export or even what you suggested would be better.

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 10:31 AM
It's the best we can have since we have no other tools available. Of course that having data to export or even what you suggested would be better.

So why /not sign it?

It's information, and more information is better. Any and everything will be a tool of segregation for some people. But don't design and code to the lowest common denominator.

If our tools are lacking, let's get better tools, not pooh pooh them.

Marcus-Hawkeye
01-17-2011, 10:33 AM
Simply filtering combat is a terrible solution.

I don't agree, I think we can have FAR more intricate, detailed and graphical information parsing the file ourselves than relying on programmers that should be working on content.

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 10:33 AM
In the long run because of the varying hp of mobs and your damage (to a lesser extent) only dps is a factor in landing the killing blow (if we are not talking about kill stealing). This is not a divison problem.

And very few forms of "kill stealing" are actually effective. If someone is consistently kill stealing from you... odds are he's doing consistently more dps.

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 10:34 AM
I don't agree, I think we can have FAR more intricate, detailed and graphical information parsing the file ourselves than relying on programmers that should be working on content.

Yeah... if "time" didn't matter in these equations.

Shade
01-17-2011, 10:35 AM
/not signed.

Removing game features is a poor suggestion. No matter what the feature.

I would sign simply adding damage count to the list without removing kill count.

But even better yet and far easier to implement would be what should of come standard with ddo as most mmos already have it

/export combatlog.txt

command. Simply will export the combat log (or any other log) to a file in realtime.

The player community could then write programs to parse the data and extrapolate DPS from it. People curious enough about true dps delt could paste their results into party chat at the end of the battle.

Ideally the log could also include combat messages from other players, but not required.

FlyingTurtle
01-17-2011, 10:36 AM
I ran two Tempest Spines last weekend on my ranger.

One wiped in the first room. My character died too pretty quickly.

The other one went smooth as silk and not only nobody died, but nobody even dropped below 80% HP that I could see. Every mob died within 2-3s, CC, DPS, buffs and healing were all immaculate.

The kill count in the second team was something like 60+ (some guy who got told off for zerging ahead and had to tone it down a bit) 40+ (me) less than 10 each for everybody else. And I know I was one of the least useful members in the group, "hit it until it stops moving" is an easy role that anyone can do when the team is awesome like that.

Kill count means nothing. It does not reflect player skill, tactics or coordination, which is 99% of your contribution to the group.

Aussir
01-17-2011, 10:37 AM
So why /not sign it?

It's information, and more information is better. Any and everything will be a tool of segregation for some people. But don't design and code to the lowest common denominator.

If our tools are lacking, let's get better tools, not pooh pooh them.

I already stated why I don't sign to everyone seeing each other's DPS (which is what is suggested) count in a previous post. One word: griefing.

Marcus-Hawkeye
01-17-2011, 10:38 AM
Yeah... if "time" didn't matter in these equations.

Realtime parsing? We have the technology!

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 10:39 AM
I already stated why I don't sign to everyone seeing each other's DPS count in a previous post. One word: griefing.

You could probably use griefing as a reason to not sign EVERY single suggestion, request, or gui enhancement ever conceived. It's a poor reason.

I've been playing DDO for years and years now... I have never once been griefed because of kill count. I'm pretty sure it's myth and conjecture... or people noticed others' crappy play and used it as the easiest quantifiable referendum on their play.

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 10:40 AM
Realtime parsing? We have the technology!

DDO doesn't even have real-time combat these days.

GentlemanAndAScholar
01-17-2011, 10:43 AM
It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.

I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.

I also think that this would be a relatively easy coding change, as there is already a combat log telling me everything that is happening, and a change to program that just adds that damage up doesnt seem too complex. I may be wrong though. (if this is a complex coding change, then it isnt really worth it)

Nope. Replace with nothing. Just remove it.

/not signed.

Marcus-Hawkeye
01-17-2011, 10:43 AM
DDO doesn't even have real-time combat these days.

I'm not talking about DDO doing it... all they would have to do is allow logging of the combat information to a file. Then we can build our own program to do it... in real time... on a second screen, with all the kill, DPS, healing, HP information you want all chittering by as flashy as you want it to be. That way you know your own stuff like the back of your hand and can tweek whatever you want, but others remain a mystery, protecting those that are sub optmal from being harrassed...

samthedagger
01-17-2011, 10:45 AM
/not signed

The kill count is actually a useful tool. It is not THE tool to determine who is contributing, but it can be helpful if taken in context. Say there are two tanks and you are one of them. The quest has about 100 mobs and together you and the other tank score 90% of the kills. You and the other tank are both the same level, same class, and smacking around stuff an equal amount of the time. But the other tank is outkilling you 60 to 30. The other tank might have some helpful tips for you (if you care to ask). Or maybe its just luck. But if you notice this kind of thing happening to you all the time, maybe you take a hint and look at your strategy/tactics. But it is NOT justification to exclude people from your groups or proof that one person is a better player than another.

The fact that people use it in immature ways is not a fault of the system. People misuse MyDDO, but that doesn't mean MyDDO doesn't serve a useful function.

And as other people have already said, the combat log can give you damage feedback if you want it.

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 10:45 AM
I'm not talking about DDO doing it... all they would have to do is allow logging of the combat information to a file. Then we can build our own program to do it... in real time... on a second screen, with all the kill, DPS, healing, HP information you want all chittering by as flashy as you want it to be. That way you know your own stuff like the back of your hand and can tweek whatever you want, but others remain a mystery, protecting those that are sub optmal from being harrassed...

Ok, I'll elaborate. How many times have you been in a raid and you kill them raid boss. Then for a full 15 seconds, damage numbers keep flying above your head.

Now, even if you're exporting to a file in realtime... all DPS numbers would be hopelessly off to the point of irrelevancy.

I'm not saying real-time parsing shouldn't happen. It would still be neat in a few situations... and there would probably come some really neat add-ons from the players side. But it wouldn't be sufficient to something a dev could do on their end.

Marcus-Hawkeye
01-17-2011, 10:49 AM
Ok, I'll elaborate. How many times have you been in a raid and you kill them raid boss. Then for a full 15 seconds, damage numbers keep flying above your head.

Now, even if you're exporting to a file in realtime... all DPS numbers would be hopelessly off to the point of irrelevancy.

I'm not saying real-time parsing shouldn't happen. It would still be neat in a few situations... and there would probably come some really neat add-ons from the players side. But it wouldn't be sufficient to something a dev could do on their end.

I've had that happen once or twice, but I assumed the numbers would still end up in the log... however the next time this occurs I will be sure to confirm if this is the case... regardless, log parsing would be far more useful than relying on them to program a full set of tools themselves.

Aussir
01-17-2011, 10:50 AM
You could probably use griefing as a reason to not sign EVERY single suggestion, request, or gui enhancement ever conceived. It's a poor reason.

I've been playing DDO for years and years now... I have never once been griefed because of kill count. I'm pretty sure it's myth and conjecture... or people noticed others' crappy play and used it as the easiest quantifiable referendum on their play.

I don't see a reason to have "kids" going about "lulz! My DPS is better than yours", which is would happen. I stated my reasons here: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3536876&postcount=4

Also, in march I'll clock 5 years of DDO and I haven't been griefed either. That doesn't mean that I don't know it happens and automatically deny it.
Grefing is not a myth and is getting worse as the hordes of "must hav min/max/uber items-or u sux" people keep pouring into the game ever since it went F2P.
Just be happy that you never fell prey to it and probably never will if you run mostly with people from a guild or within a channel.

GentlemanAndAScholar
01-17-2011, 10:53 AM
Ok, I'll elaborate. How many times have you been in a raid and you kill them raid boss. Then for a full 15 seconds, damage numbers keep flying above your head.

Now, even if you're exporting to a file in realtime... all DPS numbers would be hopelessly off to the point of irrelevancy.

I'm not saying real-time parsing shouldn't happen. It would still be neat in a few situations... and there would probably come some really neat add-ons from the players side. But it wouldn't be sufficient to something a dev could do on their end.

This is a big issue as well. How many times (the Shroud part IV is infamous for this) have member of the party been killed (you see the kill message in party chat) yet you see full health bars for a good 10 seconds? And yes I've had many times that we've killed Arri and it shows on a few people's screen as him alive and at 5% ... crazy out of sync stuff.

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 10:54 AM
I don't see a reason to have "kids" going about "lulz! My DPS is better than yours", which is would happen. I stated my reasons here: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3536876&postcount=4

Also, in march I'll clock 5 years of DDO and I haven't been griefed either. That doesn't mean that I don't know it happens and automatically deny it is a reason to refuse anything.
Grefing is not a myth and is getting worse as the hordes of "must have min/max/uber items kids" keep pouring into the game ever since it went F2P.
Just be happy that you never fell prey to it and probably never will if you run mostly with people from a guild or within a channel.

So... in 5 years of DDO, you haven't been griefed. I haven't been griefed... but we're supposed to deny coding that would benefit both of us because other people say they've been griefed by children?

Really?

That's a bit of a martyrdom complex. I don't believe in hand-cuffing everyone else because it might get abused. That's just coding to the lowest element... and will result in training wheels on everything. Training wheels and warning labels.

GentlemanAndAScholar
01-17-2011, 10:59 AM
I don't see a reason to have "kids" going about "lulz! My DPS is better than yours", which is would happen. I stated my reasons here: http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3536876&postcount=4

Also, in march I'll clock 5 years of DDO and I haven't been griefed either. That doesn't mean that I don't know it happens and automatically deny it.
Grefing is not a myth and is getting worse as the hordes of "must hav min/max/uber items-or u sux" people keep pouring into the game ever since it went F2P.
Just be happy that you never fell prey to it and probably never will if you run mostly with people from a guild or within a channel.

I agree. Also, since we're going to be showing individual damage dealt, I'd like, then, to show individual damage healed, haste received, rage received, resists received and damage mitigated by stone skin and blur/displacement to be deducted from their total. So Super awesome Mr. Tank DPS:
DPS Dealt 10000 DPS - (7000 heal + 1000 extra damge because of haste + 500 dmg because of rage + 1000 dmg mitigated from resists/stoneskin/blur) = 500 net DPS

Then we can talk about fair numbers.

hecate355
01-17-2011, 11:02 AM
/not signed

The kill count is actually a useful tool. It is not THE tool to determine who is contributing, but it can be helpful if taken in context. Say there are two tanks and you are one of them. The quest has about 100 mobs and together you and the other tank score 90% of the kills. You and the other tank are both the same level, same class, and smacking around stuff an equal amount of the time. But the other tank is outkilling you 60 to 30. The other tank might have some helpful tips for you (if you care to ask). Or maybe its just luck. But if you notice this kind of thing happening to you all the time, maybe you take a hint and look at your strategy/tactics. But it is NOT justification to exclude people from your groups or proof that one person is a better player than another.

The fact that people use it in immature ways is not a fault of the system. People misuse MyDDO, but that doesn't mean MyDDO doesn't serve a useful function.

And as other people have already said, the combat log can give you damage feedback if you want it.

on conditions where both chars land hits without much trouble(melee) and one char has 60, other 30; only means person A tried harder to connect his hits to mobs and player B simply didnt bother/have urge to swing at everything that already was as good as dead.

kill count is flawed simply because in vast majority of cases it doesent even matter if everyone does his best cutting off every extra second mobs live, every second separating them from completion.

I have completely different way looking at situation you described. If player A managed to kill 60 vs 30, then hell yea hes good, everything dies fast anyway, why should i as player B jump out of my pants to try to land killing blows on things already dead? If player A is so damn good, everything dies by his hands, then my lower numbers doesent mean im worse, they simply indicate that I WASNT needed to assist there first place.

Lots of talk, but hope my logic got somewhere...

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 11:05 AM
I agree. Also, since we're going to be showing individual damage dealt, I'd like, then, to show individual damage healed, haste received, rage received, resists received and damage mitigated by stone skin and blur/displacement to be deducted from their total. So Super awesome Mr. Tank DPS:
DPS Dealt 10000 DPS - (7000 heal + 1000 extra damge because of haste + 500 dmg because of rage + 1000 dmg mitigated from resists/stoneskin/blur) = 500 net DPS

Then we can talk about fair numbers.

The numbers aren't there to quantify every single party members' every single action. If you need the game to pat you on the back numerically because you cast resists... maybe there's some more going on.

I'm all for knowing how much damage I took. Or how much actual healing I did on my cleric vs how much overhealing I did. Anything that could conceivably improve my play or let me know which strategies are working.

I really don't need the fighter in the party to know that 1% of their DPS came from my rage.

hecate355
01-17-2011, 11:05 AM
PS. From ideas posted here so far, i like Shade's most. I sure would love to have some more feedback about what exactly and how my char did during some encounters.

GentlemanAndAScholar
01-17-2011, 11:11 AM
The numbers aren't there to quantify every single party members' every single action. If you need the game to pat you on the back numerically because you cast resists... maybe there's some more going on.

I'm all for knowing how much damage I took. Or how much actual healing I did on my cleric vs how much overhealing I did. Anything that could conceivably improve my play or let me know which strategies are working.

I really don't need the fighter in the party to know that 1% of their DPS came from my rage.

The whole point is that you can't pick and choose. Why is melee DPS any more important that buffs and resists? What about how those numbers can be incredibly inflated by a good caster owning the place with mass holds?

Dexol
01-17-2011, 11:11 AM
My damage count is bigger than your damage count!

Wouldnt mind it added to show your own damage only for your referance, otherwise its a ****ing contenst.

Phidius
01-17-2011, 11:12 AM
...I've been playing DDO for years and years now... I have never once been griefed because of kill count. I'm pretty sure it's myth and conjecture...

I've never been griefed because of kill count either, but I have had to put up with more than my share of pretentious blowhards who think the kill count means they are the better player, which gives them the right to talk smack about the other players.

Khanyth
01-17-2011, 11:12 AM
/not signed.

Too miniscule a reason to warrant a change.

>If< a change is made. it should be to make the kill count a group number. Then maybe have a drop down box that players can see out of the groups total, who killed how much.

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 11:16 AM
The whole point is that you can't pick and choose. Why is melee DPS any more important that buffs and resists? What about how those numbers can be incredibly inflated by a good caster owning the place with mass holds?

Ok... show me all these griefing melees that don't want resists, and don't think that resists help them at all. You're arguing a point no one's making. Who needs to see feedback on resists? I mean... really.

I actually would like to see feedback on a lot of buffs. So people would stop wasting mana on half of them when it shows a dramatic sp loss compared with benefits received. But I think that explanation would be far too convoluted to put into any sort of score sheet. I mean... people that cast magic circle again evil and mass aid at every shrine? It kills me.

Numbers still take interpretation. It seems like you're wanting the numbers to be so inclusive that no interpretation is necessary. And that's not possible.

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 11:17 AM
I've never been griefed because of kill count either, but I have had to put up with more than my share of pretentious blowhards who think the kill count means they are the better player, which gives them the right to talk smack about the other players.

So.. that's not griefing? What is?

Aussir
01-17-2011, 11:17 AM
So... in 5 years of DDO, you haven't been griefed. I haven't been griefed... but we're supposed to deny coding that would benefit both of us because other people say they've been griefed by children?

Really?

That's a bit of a martyrdom complex. I don't believe in hand-cuffing everyone else because it might get abused. That's just coding to the lowest element... and will result in training wheels on everything. Training wheels and warning labels.

I agree to: everyone seeing their own DPS (or spell dc's, heals, etc)
I don't agree to: everyone seeing each other's DPS (or spell dc's, heals, etc)

You don't care about people getting segregated or griefed, others do. You don't care about the "lulz kids", others do.
Let's agree to disagree and move on because right now, we're going nowhere.

Kovalas
01-17-2011, 11:19 AM
I like this idea, but have always like the idea of more data on the XP card, I would prefer to add it as well as the kill count rather then instead off.

I also played DDO for 5 years almost, and have never been or seen anyone mocked or teased for a low kill count, or lack of damage output (apart from pulling guildies legs) even when it has been painfully obvious or outright annoying, I think this whole 'the kids will use it to 'diss/grief' each other all night is fearmongering.

And even if someone did, grow some skin.

Kov

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 11:20 AM
I agree to: everyone seeing their own DPS
I don't agree to: everyone seeing each other's DPS

You don't care about people getting segregated or griefed, others do. You don't care about the "lulz kids", others do.
Let's agree to disagree and move on because right now, we're going nowhere.

Here's the difference. People that have a problem with children griefing have the option to not play with them in the future.

I don't have the option of knowing how my DPS ranks numerically with other people in the party.

So basically people are declining useful information because they don't want to moniter who they group with. That's like saying, I can't control myself, so not only do I want Turbine to control me, but I want Turbine to control everyone else so I don't feel left out.

Aussir
01-17-2011, 11:31 AM
I like this idea, but have always like the idea of more data on the XP card, I would prefer to add it as well as the kill count rather then instead off.

I also played DDO for 5 years almost, and have never been or seen anyone mocked or teased for a low kill count, or lack of damage output (apart from pulling guildies legs) even when it has been painfully obvious or outright annoying, I think this whole 'the kids will use it to 'diss/grief' each other all night is fearmongering.

And even if someone did, grow some skin.

Kov

I will assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you came from our defunct EU server (I think you were Kovarlas jearl on the forum or something similar?)
We didn't have F2P there, it was a completely different atmosphere than here. We basically knew each other and each other's builds and how each other plays, we ran in guild or had channels set up for abbot and the likes. How are we going to get griefed then?

F2P attracts all kinds of people and yes, some don't have the "skin" to take "lulz kids". Still, go around the forums and what do you see? Lvl 20's fully geared being declined and mocked at because they appear as lower level with "sub-par" equips on MyDDO (and people forget/ignore that myDDO is broken), people being declined because they don't have one of the "must have" builds, "must have weapon/item", etc.

Seeing each other's DPS would increase this screening even more and lead to even more division in the community. "Oh, player X does less than me and is the same class, lulz. He sucks!"

Like I said, not everyone plays min/max monsters full of raid/epic items but some people wouldn't take that into account. They'd only take into account that person X did less damage.

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 11:35 AM
I will assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you came from our defunct EU server (I think you were Kovarlas jearl or something similar?)
We didn't have F2P there, it was a completely different atmosphere than here. We basically knew each other and each other's builds, we ran in guild or had channels set up for abbot and the likes. How are we going to get griefed then?

F2P attracts all kinds of people and yes, some don't have the "skin" to take "lulz kids". Still, go around the forums and what do you see? Lvl 20's fully geared being declined and mocked at because they appear as lower level with "sub-par" equips on MyDDO (and people forget/ignore that myDDO is broken), people being declined because they don't have one of the "must have" builds, "must have weapon", etc.

Seeing each other's DPS would increase this screening even more and lead to even more division in the community. "Oh, player X does less than me and is the same class, lulz. He sucks!"

Like I said, not everyone plays min/max monsters full of raid/epic items but some people wouldn't take that into account. They'd only take into account that person X did less damage.

See, and I still have not run into this. The guy I'm playing as my main right now only appears as lvl 9 on myDDO. I've never once been asked to link a DR beater, let alone declined because myDDO didn't pan out. I've never been declined because of 'must have' builds... no one's asked me what weapons I had.

Hell, when I hit lvl 18, someone let me into a VoD hard without a question.. and I actually hadn't crafted my Min II yet, because I forgot my power cells and had to wait 3 more days. We completed fine, and I tried to focus on trash a little more than I normally would have.

I know people complain about these types of things all the time on the forums... but I always assume I don't know the whole story. My lack of corroborating evidence in game says these things should all be taken with a grain of salt.

Phidius
01-17-2011, 11:37 AM
I've never been griefed because of kill count either, but I have had to put up with more than my share of pretentious blowhards who think the kill count means they are the better player, which gives them the right to talk smack about the other players.

So.. that's not griefing? What is?

I consider griefing to be any action that is done with the deliberate goal of causing another distress or discomfort.

Most of the "pretentious blowhards" were actually friends of mine who couldn't resist the Kill Count's siren song. Heck, I've been one of them often enough myself!

Just because someone isn't any fun to play with doesn't mean they're a griefer.

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 11:40 AM
I consider griefing to be any action that is done with the deliberate goal of causing another distress or discomfort.

Most of the "pretentious blowhards" were actually friends of mine who couldn't resist the Kill Count's siren song. Heck, I've been one of them often enough myself!

Just because someone isn't any fun to play with doesn't mean they're a griefer.

Fair enough... My experience of the blowhards has actually been pretty minimal... unless it's in an all guild group and we're just ribbing each other and competing. It's not fun for me to point it out when I'm actually demolishing competition. Only when I'm 1 or 2 ahead.

jwdaniels
01-17-2011, 11:40 AM
Better idea - stop caring about what your DPS is. That way, you don't need to calculate it, display it or brag about it and nobody can grief you over it.

If, at the end of the quest, the mobs are dead and you're not then the group's DPS was obviously high enough.

Jaid314
01-17-2011, 11:43 AM
yeah, i'm not convinced this would be a bad thing. maybe not replace, if people want to keep kill count as well that's fine i guess (for those who are just concerned about exp, the simple solution is to count instakill as removing all of the mob's remaining HP).

i could care less if anyone looks at my sorcerer or bard's damage dealt and sees that it's low (or high). my sorcerer is not a melee, why would i be compared to a melee-focused stat? everyone knows that i'm the guy throwing the holds, webs, etc.

i do think it would be useful to see damage dealt. i'd *love* to see a parser, and i don't think it would be a bad thing even if the information was all made public. there will be, as with all other things, an expected threshold among the population of DDO. sure, some people will use it to make fun of others. what's your point? right now, this very second, people in DDO are making fun of other people in DDO because of what class they have. also probably race. also probably weapon choice. also probably spell selection. in fact, pretty much any choice you can possibly make with your character, odds are good someone is either being made fun of over making a certain choice right now, or will be shortly.

now, we could come to the conclusion that this means those things are the problem (being able to choose weapons is no good, let's force everyone to use khopesh whether they want to or not!), or we could come to the conclusion that certain *people* are the problem, and will be a problem whether or not they see anyone else's damage.

one group of people possibly making fun of others is not a valid reason to deny something like this. i'll accept "i don't care", or "i don't think it's worth the time to code it", or "i don't think it will provide any useful information" if you'd like. but "someone might use it as ammunition to belittle other people" is simply not a good reason; there is already pretty much unlimited ammunition to belittle other people if you're going to do it, adding to the list isn't going to have any significant impact on people being belittled. it might change some of the reasons, but it won't change the fact that it's happening.

voodoogroves
01-17-2011, 11:46 AM
Damage won't reflect the person who's invested in and smart enough to switch to dual vorpals at the right time or be an assassin 3, nor will it account for the insta-killed folks from wail, finger, assassinate, etc.

Another metric isn't always good, if the metric can be vastly misinterpreted.

Jaid314
01-17-2011, 11:52 AM
Damage won't reflect the person who's invested in and smart enough to switch to dual vorpals at the right time or be an assassin 3, nor will it account for the insta-killed folks from wail, finger, assassinate, etc.

Another metric isn't always good, if the metric can be vastly misinterpreted.

again, simple solution. the mob had 500 hit points left when it was instakilled, it counts as 500 damage. problem solved.

Soulken
01-17-2011, 11:53 AM
NO thanks but lets change kill count to just a total and not list the source of what killed it.

Kovalas
01-17-2011, 12:05 PM
I will assume (correct me if I'm wrong) that you came from our defunct EU server (I think you were Kovarlas jearl on the forum or something similar?)
We didn't have F2P there, it was a completely different atmosphere than here. We basically knew each other and each other's builds and how each other plays, we ran in guild or had channels set up for abbot and the likes. How are we going to get griefed then?

F2P attracts all kinds of people and yes, some don't have the "skin" to take "lulz kids". Still, go around the forums and what do you see? Lvl 20's fully geared being declined and mocked at because they appear as lower level with "sub-par" equips on MyDDO (and people forget/ignore that myDDO is broken), people being declined because they don't have one of the "must have" builds, "must have weapon/item", etc.

Seeing each other's DPS would increase this screening even more and lead to even more division in the community. "Oh, player X does less than me and is the same class, lulz. He sucks!"

Like I said, not everyone plays min/max monsters full of raid/epic items but some people wouldn't take that into account. They'd only take into account that person X did less damage.

That is I......./bow

Maybe you should come group with me/us if this is what you have to put up with, Now that were on the same server :P and bring the Drow with you.

I play tooled up dudes, I only have a few, but they are armed well, min/max builds er ish as well, but I have been declined from Shroud PUGS still on US Servers, only because I'm a Rogue....

I do get annoyed by this, but I simply add the leader to my friends list with a 'Rogue Discrim Shrouder' next to his name, and when, that same character trys to join my groups, I decline them, and tell them exactly why. If they get ****y and start griefing I ignore them, if they say something apologetic I invite them. Regardless of which reaction I get, they think about declining the next Rogue that wants in there group :P

I just don't like the argument that because there is griefing 'potential' then something shouldnt be added, because this reminds me of a 'nanny state' which I believe from your past posts and bio, is not what your about at all, and me neither.

Kov

Kovalas
01-17-2011, 12:10 PM
Damage won't reflect the person who's invested in and smart enough to switch to dual vorpals at the right time or be an assassin 3, nor will it account for the insta-killed folks from wail, finger, assassinate, etc.

Another metric isn't always good, if the metric can be vastly misinterpreted.

But cant all metrics be misinterpreted?

I won't reflect a person whose is Assassin III (me) or switches to Vorpals for trash (most twf) but it would interesting reading for an all guild elite TOD for instance, why should the majority be denied something because of a minority?

Kov

kernal42
01-17-2011, 12:12 PM
It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.

I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.

I also think that this would be a relatively easy coding change, as there is already a combat log telling me everything that is happening, and a change to program that just adds that damage up doesnt seem too complex. I may be wrong though. (if this is a complex coding change, then it isnt really worth it)

I would love to see a quest-long damage counter. I would love even to see a quest-long damage counter showing only my damage contribution, which should obviate any potential griefing toward low-dps toons.

Cheers,
Kernal

krud
01-17-2011, 12:14 PM
I would rather that kill count or any other individual meter not be in the xp logs.

Instead they should include more e-peen measuring tools on the guild ship training dummy. Give it more options (variable fort, dr, etc). View your results right there on the ship.

GentlemanAndAScholar
01-17-2011, 12:18 PM
Ok... show me all these griefing melees that don't want resists, and don't think that resists help them at all. You're arguing a point no one's making. Who needs to see feedback on resists? I mean... really.

I actually would like to see feedback on a lot of buffs. So people would stop wasting mana on half of them when it shows a dramatic sp loss compared with benefits received. But I think that explanation would be far too convoluted to put into any sort of score sheet. I mean... people that cast magic circle again evil and mass aid at every shrine? It kills me.

Numbers still take interpretation. It seems like you're wanting the numbers to be so inclusive that no interpretation is necessary. And that's not possible.

My point is that everyone's job can be reduced to a menial task. You say you are not interested in knowing how much damage was mitigated be elemental resists across the whole party yet you are interested in knowing the numbers that come up overhead for a melee swinging a sword or a cleric casting a spell. D&D (and by extensions DDO) by its very nature you cannot have meaningful individual metrics. It's a group-oriented game and mechanics you cannot possibly know how good or bad anyone character can do while in a group context. If you really want to know how well you (individually) measure up against different mobs with different fortification, I suggest trying training dummies.

bobbryan2
01-17-2011, 12:25 PM
My point is that everyone's job can be reduced to a menial task. You say you are not interested in knowing how much damage was mitigated be elemental resists across the whole party yet you are interested in knowing the numbers that come up overhead for a melee swinging a sword or a cleric casting a spell. D&D (and by extensions DDO) by its very nature you cannot have meaningful individual metrics. It's a group-oriented game and mechanics you cannot possibly know how good or bad anyone character can do while in a group context. If you really want to know how well you (individually) measure up against different mobs with different fortification, I suggest trying training dummies.

Ok.. what I'm actually saying. Is that you're taking my argument, enhancing it to the point of absurdity, and then saying anything less is incomplete.

That's like saying if we can't have a whole cake, why should we even want a slice?

I'm for whatever metrics you want to put in there. As long as it's meaningful data, I'll take it. For instance.. I would LOVE to see a heal/overheal ratio. I think most bad clerics I run with err on that single stat. If you want a total damage mitigation through ablative resistances.. fine. I have no problem with it. I only have a problem with you saying that a DPS counter without ablative resistance counter is meaningless.

That's a silly statement.

Aaxeyu
01-17-2011, 12:42 PM
Damage won't reflect the person who's invested in and smart enough to switch to dual vorpals at the right time or be an assassin 3, nor will it account for the insta-killed folks from wail, finger, assassinate, etc.

Another metric isn't always good, if the metric can be vastly misinterpreted.

So? The point is not to compare epeens, the point is to see how much damage you are doing yourself. You know if you are using instakill for example.

Just because it doesn't include every and all variable desn't mean that it can't be perfectly fine to measure the variable it was meant to measure.

GentlemanAndAScholar
01-17-2011, 01:06 PM
That's a silly statement.

Is it not silly for a DPS counter to ignore all other factors that helped in getting that number? I think it is.

DPS Monster with no heals and resists -> dead.
Dead -> Zero DPS.
∴ DPS Monster with no heals and resists -> Zero DPS.

Aussir
01-17-2011, 01:10 PM
That is I......./bow

Maybe you should come group with me/us if this is what you have to put up with, Now that were on the same server :P and bring the Drow with you.

I play tooled up dudes, I only have a few, but they are armed well, min/max builds er ish as well, but I have been declined from Shroud PUGS still on US Servers, only because I'm a Rogue....

Nice to see you around, mate. Any chars on Ghal to pay a visit to the rest of us? :)
Oh, I had that same thing happen to my ranger. I suppose they thought she had 200HP and couldn't kill a fly :rolleyes:. Take note of the "nice person" and move on.
But then, the rest of the people from EU got transferred... :D bye bye, PUGS and annoyances. The people I party with know my builds and know how I play, no griefing there, only advice if I ask for it.


I do get annoyed by this, but I simply add the leader to my friends list with a 'Rogue Discrim Shrouder' next to his name, and when, that same character trys to join my groups, I decline them, and tell them exactly why. If they get ****y and start griefing I ignore them, if they say something apologetic I invite them. Regardless of which reaction I get, they think about declining the next Rogue that wants in there group :P

Maybe you should hop on Ghallandra and go about with the peeps. just be aware: we always blame the monk. :D

As for the topic at hand... I speak out of seeing what happened with myDDO and like it, this would be a double-edged sword. I'm not saying it wouldn't be useful, but DPS is more than just whack something with an axe and get a number.
The problem is, certain people would only look at that number in detriment of all the factors that come into play for the final DPS/heal/you name it.
Others would just use it to boost e-peen and have bios like: "I did 700dmg to <mob>" (hello frenzy).
I think at some point it would end up like myDDO: some want it gone, some want it fixed.


I just don't like the argument that because there is griefing 'potential' then something shouldnt be added, because this reminds me of a 'nanny state' which I believe from your past posts and bio, is not what your about at all, and me neither.

Kov

I think we both should move countries then ;)

Chai
01-17-2011, 01:18 PM
It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.

I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.

I also think that this would be a relatively easy coding change, as there is already a combat log telling me everything that is happening, and a change to program that just adds that damage up doesnt seem too complex. I may be wrong though. (if this is a complex coding change, then it isnt really worth it)

How exactly would damage count be any less of a tool that would allow barbs or casters to wave their ePeen® around?

No to damage meter. People do alot more, and can be an effective group mate in other ways, than just damaging mobs in groups, and theres already a large enough contingent of players who measure a toons / players worth solely on how much DPS it can put out.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If I put a damage meter in this type of game, I would make it so the enabler got the credit for the DPS caused above and beyond what the melee would have provided sans enabler. If a wizard casts a mass hold, each hit your TWF heavy pick rogue delivers would be considered a normal hit for the rogues DPS, except for rolls into the crit threat as normal, and the critical damage minus the base damage goes to the wizard. If someone is enabling you to do more DPS, thats THEIR DPS. Where do bards fall in the max DPS pecking order now, spreadsheet gamers? :p How about stun focused monks?

There would also be a massive deduction as a ratio of how many times you died, and a slight reduction for how many times you needed to be healed, because hey, your toon might be max DPS, but if we have to sacrifice a group slot for a healer to keep that toon propped up hes now fighting for 2 slots worth of DPS, right?

Are having two battle cleric type THF eSOS divines in the group better or worse on the pixelated self-esteem-o-meter DPS-wise than having 1 busted out raw DPS kensai who cant wipe its own arse healing wise + 1 HealBot® babysitter to keep the kensai propped up? Whats the score there? Inquiring minds want to know.

One thing is for certain. The min maxers and one trick pony builds wouldnt be able to brag about self worth using the Chai® brand group-net-worth-o-meter to back their antics up with. The person who built the AC based exploiter variant and soloed VOD with it on the other hand, would have a very high rating.

MrWizard
01-17-2011, 01:24 PM
It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.

I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.

I also think that this would be a relatively easy coding change, as there is already a combat log telling me everything that is happening, and a change to program that just adds that damage up doesnt seem too complex. I may be wrong though. (if this is a complex coding change, then it isnt really worth it)

Kill count can mean nothing, as can damage count.

So someone stuns or holds something and someone else auto crits it to death, who really did the deed...? The team did.

And so on for many fights and battles. Trips, stuns, holds, cripples, destructions, and so many very important factors or 'team work' to kill mobs.

Aggro management keeps party from being overwhelmed. Aggro manager gets no kills but keeps party in a nice stable battle they can win. Kill count 0, Party count 100%.

It would be nice to see tabulations of what you did and did not do, but at this point I am sure the designers have shelved any thoughts of it.

Mr_Ed7
01-17-2011, 01:26 PM
It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.

I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.

I also think that this would be a relatively easy coding change, as there is already a combat log telling me everything that is happening, and a change to program that just adds that damage up doesnt seem too complex. I may be wrong though. (if this is a complex coding change, then it isnt really worth it)

Sounds more like someone is concerned with the size of their penne pasta...

Since it is not the best-ignore it .
It does not need to be replaced...I would not mind if it was added.

While we are at it lets keep track of how much the CLERIC healed you!

Optimistic_Guardian
01-17-2011, 01:28 PM
It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.

I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.

I also think that this would be a relatively easy coding change, as there is already a combat log telling me everything that is happening, and a change to program that just adds that damage up doesnt seem too complex. I may be wrong though. (if this is a complex coding change, then it isnt really worth it)

There are some people that won't want to be judge because the character is not the best... or they don't rush every monster to get first damage\kill. Doesn't seem like bad idea but I've been in dungeon fighting mobs behind the front line to protect the casters(depends where you are when doing all that dmg). IT Might not have the same amount of kills or dmg in those circumstances. Although I was much more appreciated by the team then the power player who ran off to soloing the quest.
After this will have to put in a count for the amount healed by clerics. And next thing you know no one will want trap rogues, bards and paladins, intimitanks etc. Sound great (sarcasm).

/Re not signed.

GentlemanAndAScholar
01-17-2011, 01:31 PM
Kill count can mean nothing, as can damage count.

So someone stuns or holds something and someone else auto crits it to death, who really did the deed...? The team did.

And so on for many fights and battles. Trips, stuns, holds, cripples, destructions, and so many very important factors or 'team work' to kill mobs.

Aggro management keeps party from being overwhelmed. Aggro manager gets no kills but keeps party in a nice stable battle they can win. Kill count 0, Party count 100%.

It would be nice to see tabulations of what you did and did not do, but at this point I am sure the designers have shelved any thoughts of it.

I concur. I tried to make this argument couple of times earlier in this thread. You cannot have any individual meaningful metrics in a group-based game. The only meaningful number for any one as an individual melee would be to hit a training dummy while completely unbuffed.

bigolbear
01-17-2011, 01:33 PM
actualy i think a damage count could be darn interesting (not good for the game but darn interesting).

My money is on arcanes, clerics and rogues being at the top with barbs below and every one else below that.
role reversal for most raids.

2HF will come in before 2WF in most quests, 2WF in most raids.

Fact is a well played arcane or cleric will dominate the damage numbers due to AOE spells and instakills (which should account for any health remaining).

All this joking aside ask your self this - how much damage is a mass hold monster worth? how much damage is haste worth? how much damage is healing worth?

If you want to mess with the kill count (which is usefull purely for a bit of 'legolass and gimli' style fun) then go the whole hog with it.

FOR EACH PLAYER:
damage dealt, over damage dealt, kill count, damage taken, damage mitigated on player X(through buffs or items or abilities), health healed, over heals recieved, number of mobs incapacitated, amount of healing given, amount of overhealing given, traps disarmed, buffs cast, buffs recieved, percentage of player X's damage directly atributable to this player - eg hold spells haste bard song etc.

Now that kinda list would let people work out the kinks in their characters and more support oriented chars would be recognised for giving said support. further more it would show just how much damage a decent arcane, bard or cleric brings to the mix.

All that being said i think this is a waste of developer time, and a third party program that analyses the combat log would be the way to go for those interested. It should be obvious enough already if some one is not pulling their weight.

kernal42
01-17-2011, 01:37 PM
I concur. I tried to make this argument couple of times earlier in this thread. You cannot have any individual meaningful metrics in a group-based game. The only meaningful number for any one as an individual melee would be to hit a training dummy while completely unbuffed.

It depends what you want them for. I agree that there is no measure by which you can say "My character was more effective than yours" in all situations.

On the other hand, I want to know my damage dealt. I want to swap weapons/strategies and see how that number changes. I want to see if my battlecleric is actually doing any significant amount of damage. I want to know many things that could be answered by a damage counter. Many of them could in principle be answered by damage calcs, but I prefer real data when available.

Cheers,
Kernal

redoubt
01-17-2011, 01:52 PM
There are a few options:

1. do nothing AND realize that it is only the last point of damage dealt that counts. Know that the healers, CCs, buffers and trapsmiths are sacrificing their kill count for the good of the group.

2. Drop the individual kill count off the xp report.

3. Drastically increase the data displayed:
- damage dealt
- damage healed (not overhealed though)
- damage saved
---resists
---protections
---traps disabled (give average damage of the trap x number in party)
- curses, stat damage and other effects removed and their impact on damage output
---i.e. curse removal give the person removing the curse 20% of the person who was cursed damage for 30 seconds (or the remainder of the curse timer whichever is less.)
- insta kills get the full value of the hp remaining on the mob killed.
- holds give the caster 50% of the damage done while the mob is held. (Worst crit multiplier is x2.)
- other mez'd mobs give the caster 25% of the damage done while mez'd.
- a rez'd character gives 50% of its damage to the rez'r for 3 minutes.

You can also summarize the data into one "i'm uber" number like this:
Damage Dealt - damage received + damage healded + damage saved

I'd say go with option 1 or 2. Too many people would get their parts bent if the game actually displayed an accurate measure of contribution to a given quest.

Cyr
01-17-2011, 02:05 PM
Replace no...add in addition to okay.

Kill count is useful as it shows a meaningful statistic that can not automatically be seen with a damage meter (just as the inverse is true). Kill count is most effective over dps meters when instant kills are taken into account (vorpals, wail, pk...).

Statistics are always good things to be able to see as a player.

Darkrok
01-17-2011, 03:02 PM
/not signed

Our guild has far too much fun trying to kill steal each other and cheese our way to the kill count victory. Don't take away our mini-game within the game! :P

Damionic
01-20-2011, 10:27 AM
I'd like to see a "most tactical player" in the group.

By Tactical I mean.

1. Best adaptation of environment (for example using high ledges for ranged..or creating kill zones with spells ect)
2. Best use of damage mitigation (not just talking about tanking but moving "with" the action and being one step ahead of the impending danger)
3. Sneaky kills/holds/de-buffs (How assessing the situation enabled you to kill/hold/debuff/charm "key" mobs turning the tide of the battle.
4. Saved in the nick of time (this is not just waiting til your team is almost dead..but giving one last attempt that saves someone from impending doom.

4a A heal/aid at a critical moment.
4b A fighter blocking an attack just before the mobs killing blow.
4c Something that prevents the killing blow at the last minuet (holds/charms/debuffs/disables the mob)

This would encorage better team play and give you a much better braging right then (Ha ha..I killed him)

To (Ha ha I {Pick one} that mob..preventing it from killing you!)

My Tuppence.

Nauz
01-20-2011, 10:34 AM
but then the cat would be out of the bag on all my kill stealing toons....lol

Claver
01-20-2011, 10:43 AM
It's a small thing, but i really feel that the Kill Count is sorta useless except for barbs or casters (in lower level quests) to wave their epeens around.

I feel that changing it to a Damage Count would not only help determine who is actually helping the party the most (kinda useless) but also help people determine if their build is working/ if they are playing well.)

I disagree.

Damage count seems as arbitrary as kill count in evaluating contribution to the party.

If my build is a 2 weapon vorpal kama wind stance finesse monk I may have a high kill count without dealing much damage.

I have a low level favored soul with high wisdom that commands and holds everything in place. Kill count and damage count would both fail to recognize this character's considerable contribution to the success of the rest of the party.

If you need to broadcast your damage; I'm sure you can drag your combat log into the chat window. It means little to me.