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Cloista
01-16-2011, 02:14 PM
Haven't seen either mentioned during the many discussions on how to help make AC meaningful, and I'm suprised at that, maybe they just seem too obvious. They are exactly what it says on the tin, two simple additions that could make building for AC a lot simpler, but that are completely optional and unneccessary for those nt building for AC. Inspiration taken from an existing mechanic - Racial Toughness.


Racial Dodge I
Usage: Passive
Cost: 1 action point
Spent: 7 action points
Requires All of: Dodge
Available to level 3 (Race)
Grants you 2 additional armour class if you have the Dodge feat.


Racial Combat Expertise I
Usage: Passive
Cost: 1 action point
Spent: 7 action points
Requires All of: Combat Expertise
Available to level 3 (Race)
Grants you 2 additional Armour Class whilst Combat Expertise is active.


Same progression in AP cost/level as Racial Toughness, though possibly acting as an alternate (Dwarf/WF only get Dodge/CE up to II, whilst Halfling/Elves get IV, opposite of how Racial Toughness works).

Simple, uses and existing mechanic, and whilst not completely solving the issue, makes building for AC a lot easier.

grodon9999
01-16-2011, 02:18 PM
Just lower ther to-hits in epic another 10 and it's fine.

karnokvolrath
01-16-2011, 02:30 PM
My two cents on why AC is borked and why turbine MAY have just given it up.

Because of our system and they way it works AC does one of 3 things.

1. Nothing - This is 83% of us.

2. The Fence - There are quite a few builds that can reach a decent ac that can be useful, I also group max ac raid tanks into this group. This makes up the 17%.

3. Completely Unhittable - This is the magic number, the end all be all, the answer. There was a time where it was reachable, but i personally dont no anyone that has this number anymore since epics came about. Do they exsist? maybe but i dobt it.

My conclusion is that unhittable is bad for the game anyway. The fence group is for people that enjoy a meaningful AC. Honesly i think AC should be completely overhauled into some kind of DR thing, but then DR would prolly need a complete overhaul as well.

Im happy with the 83% brcket and more new content, but that me.

bryanmeerkat
01-16-2011, 02:51 PM
My two cents on why AC is borked and why turbine MAY have just given it up.

Because of our system and they way it works AC does one of 3 things.

1. Nothing - This is 83% of us.

2. The Fence - There are quite a few builds that can reach a decent ac that can be useful, I also group max ac raid tanks into this group. This makes up the 17%.

3. Completely Unhittable - This is the magic number, the end all be all, the answer. There was a time where it was reachable, but i personally dont no anyone that has this number anymore since epics came about. Do they exsist? maybe but i dobt it.

My conclusion is that unhittable is bad for the game anyway. The fence group is for people that enjoy a meaningful AC. Honesly i think AC should be completely overhauled into some kind of DR thing, but then DR would prolly need a complete overhaul as well.

Im happy with the 83% brcket and more new content, but that me.

AC should not be overhauled into DR , that would make DR pointless .

My solution if I was going to implement one would be to increase the range of to hit from 1-20 to 1-100 and rebalancing AC around this .
This would mean they had a larger window for usable AC .

If either way none of these suggestions will come into effect EVER because of the license they have with Wizards of the Coast wont let them change something as drastic as a core mechanic as iconic as AC and to hit .

Cloista
01-16-2011, 02:57 PM
The simple fact is we are unlikely to get a major overhaul. Hence suggesting a small, easily added option to help those building for a useful AC. I've seen a lot of suggestions, and made some others myself, and each time I've thought 'how can we make it simpler to implement?' and this is what I came up with this time.

karnokvolrath
01-16-2011, 02:59 PM
My solution if I was going to implement one would be to increase the range of to hit from 1-20 to 1-100 and rebalancing AC around this .
This would mean they had a larger window for usable AC ..

This would be the other real answer...but...


.If either way none of these suggestions will come into effect EVER because of the license they have with Wizards of the Coast wont let them change something as drastic as a core mechanic as iconic as AC and to hit .

Ah, ya beat me too it :)

Vellrad
01-16-2011, 02:59 PM
IMO the AC problem is that we can reach ridiculously high numbers, like 70-90, or even 100+.
The only solution would be big nerf to AC gear- but nerf in numbers only. Then, when 40-60 is big and 70 is nerly unhitable, and 80 is max, nerf numbers of mobs' to hit bonus. After that is done, do not add gear allowing players for getting to much AC. Also, something should be done with grazzing hits.

uhgungawa
01-16-2011, 03:08 PM
The problem is there is a gap in AC. You can have as low as a 20 and as high as 106 (yes people have buffed up to that) Once you hit 60 you have invested into your AC, but some builds can maintain in the 90's. DDO being D&D based works off of a D20 system so once the AC builds have a difference of more that 20 points the whole this is done fore. All they could do is ditch the D20 system (which ain't gonna happen) and goto a more MMO friendly and broader % system.

And what else would happen with your idea is that, yes you would take it. But so wouldn't the people with the 90+ AC. Then they would just scale it higher to match and would make the effort for nill.

Daim
01-16-2011, 03:09 PM
If either way none of these suggestions will come into effect EVER because of the license they have with Wizards of the Coast wont let them change something as drastic as a core mechanic as iconic as AC and to hit .

Where do you think grazing hits came from? I sure don't remember that in 3.5

RJBsComputer
01-16-2011, 04:29 PM
I have seen long lists that AC needs to be fix or that it is broken. I have also seen long lists of how to fix AC because it is broken or needing fixed. What I have not seen is the reason why people think it needs to be fixed or why it is broken.

BAB, weapon bonus and miscellanous bonus plus the D20 roll is all added together to see if you can hit any AC. Forum readers can provide proof that there are toons out there that can hit anything on a 2 on a D20. Some min/max'ers think, you have gimped your toon if you can't hit anything on a roll of a 2. When a min/max'er gets hit on a roll of a 2, the call that AC is broken and needs fixed is heard.

Here is an over simplified example I always think about when I see a thread like this. Pick up a rock. Take aim at a tank. Throw the rock at the tank. Did you hit the tank? Well if you can throw, the answer is yes. Did you do any damage, the answer is no. Unless it is a VERY RUSTY tank. What is the point here? The point is that AC is only used to see if you are hit, not how much damage you take from being hit. If we the player can max out our AC and our To-Hit modifiers, then in the name of the all important "GAME BALANCE" can't the monsters we fight do the same thing too? If the answer to that question is no, then you remind me of my nephew that sets the options on the video games he plays so he can always wins. Why play the game if you know you are always going to win.

bryanmeerkat
01-16-2011, 04:47 PM
Where do you think grazing hits came from? I sure don't remember that in 3.5

Nope but it dosent interfere with core mechanics only supplement them for the needs of an mmorpg.

Also the original suggestion in this post wont help really as those who are building for ac will take them and those who arent wont , taking them wont do enough for a build with low ac and will push those with a high ac even higher up making the next round of mobs have to have even higher to hits so that those who take all those bonus and already have a high AC can still be hit at a reasonable rate . As devs dont want immortal charachters .

RATRACE931
01-16-2011, 04:52 PM
Haven't seen either mentioned during the many discussions on how to help make AC meaningful, and I'm suprised at that, maybe they just seem too obvious. They are exactly what it says on the tin, two simple additions that could make building for AC a lot simpler, but that are completely optional and unneccessary for those nt building for AC. Inspiration taken from an existing mechanic - Racial Toughness.


Racial Dodge I
Usage: Passive
Cost: 1 action point
Spent: 7 action points
Requires All of: Dodge
Available to level 3 (Race)
Grants you 2 additional armour class if you have the Dodge feat.


Racial Combat Expertise I
Usage: Passive
Cost: 1 action point
Spent: 7 action points
Requires All of: Combat Expertise
Available to level 3 (Race)
Grants you 2 additional Armour Class whilst Combat Expertise is active.


Same progression in AP cost/level as Racial Toughness, though possibly acting as an alternate (Dwarf/WF only get Dodge/CE up to II, whilst Halfling/Elves get IV, opposite of how Racial Toughness works).

Simple, uses and existing mechanic, and whilst not completely solving the issue, makes building for AC a lot easier.


Maybe people don't remmember but these enh used to existfor Fighters, was taken away as they were 'overpowered' at the time. I don't see them coming back.

Fishcatch22
01-16-2011, 04:55 PM
Nerfing the to-hit of epic mobs and adding this would go a very long way to solving the AC question. /signed.

Undone1
01-16-2011, 04:56 PM
Simple way to fix the AC issue is to pull a PnP. Mobs power attack for just enough to hit you on a 2. AC issue solved, with a BAB 40-60 most mobs would gain alot of dps on minor AC toons and lose some on others.

Kaeldur
01-16-2011, 05:06 PM
In another discussion about fixing AC someone posted something similar to what I'm about to say, and my opinion is precisely that:

As of now we have too much sources of stacking AC. The problem isn't letting us reach higher values, Epic monsters' to-hit is so high precisely because of high AC values. Because some day someone maxed out their AC, they had to revamp monsters so they could at least scratch that AC, rendering anything 20 points below that nearly useless. AC & To-Hit is a known D&D issue, it has never been balanced after level 10-ish, and that got even worse in DDO with all the inflated numbers.

Long story short, any new source of stacking AC will make the problem worse, forcing builds to commit even more to acheiving values that matter, and leaving those that don't in the dark; just because they can't have untouchable toons. Remove stacking AC sources, if max AC would be in the 70's (for example), the whole system could get back on track.

andbr22
01-16-2011, 05:06 PM
Well in other d20 setting (Star Wars) you get AC scaled while levelinig up, and armors just provided DR if I am correct. Also in ed.4 AC scales with level.
Why it is good to scale with level because your battle experience (LV) helps you find a cover, parry next attack, take better position etc.

Is it possible to implement?
-> not now. It would require too many things to change and balance.

Astraghal
01-16-2011, 05:08 PM
There are much worse balance issues in the game already, than a potentially unhittable AC.

Always getting hit on a 20 makes AC almost as useless in epic as it is currently anyway.

With the damage done by epic mobs, you will still die fast when facing a few at a time.

Getting around the 20 always hits and factoring DR into AC is the only way I can see to make AC relevant.

Kaeldur
01-16-2011, 05:20 PM
I have seen long lists that AC needs to be fix or that it is broken. I have also seen long lists of how to fix AC because it is broken or needing fixed. What I have not seen is the reason why people think it needs to be fixed or why it is broken.

It is broken because you should be able to, with a reasonable effort, be able to have AC that matters (be able to avoid some hits). Currently you either ditch AC totally or commit everything to having useful AC (and still won't really be useful in epic).


BAB, weapon bonus and miscellanous bonus plus the D20 roll is all added together to see if you can hit any AC. Forum readers can provide proof that there are toons out there that can hit anything on a 2 on a D20. Some min/max'ers think, you have gimped your toon if you can't hit anything on a roll of a 2. When a min/max'er gets hit on a roll of a 2, the call that AC is broken and needs fixed is heard.

That's the problem. We shouldn't be hitting everything on a 2, and we shouldn't be hit by anything on a roll of 2.


Here is an over simplified example I always think about when I see a thread like this. Pick up a rock. Take aim at a tank. Throw the rock at the tank. Did you hit the tank? Well if you can throw, the answer is yes. Did you do any damage, the answer is no. Unless it is a VERY RUSTY tank. What is the point here? The point is that AC is only used to see if you are hit, not how much damage you take from being hit. If we the player can max out our AC and our To-Hit modifiers, then in the name of the all important "GAME BALANCE" can't the monsters we fight do the same thing too? If the answer to that question is no, then you remind me of my nephew that sets the options on the video games he plays so he can always wins. Why play the game if you know you are always going to win.

Ok, this in D&D we used to interpret as the following (given your example): AC doesn't mean if the rock hits or doesn't hit the tank. Consider the tank has some plating, but there is a weak spot in it. AC will determine if the rock hit, and more, if it hit strong enough or precise enough (weak spot) to actually cause any damage to the tank. In classic D&D setting that means not only actually having the weapon hit the target, but if it was enough for the weapon to bypass the target's plating (or else we would have full plated & tower shielded fighters dodging hits, not really plausible...)

And yes, that gets a bit confusing with DR...

Kominalito
01-16-2011, 05:43 PM
i miss the days of -8 being great AC.

donfilibuster
01-16-2011, 05:51 PM
One of those little things in PnP that can magically help is the mechanics of cover.
Gives team value to shield users, ease kiting on ranged or spells and promote non-huddling.
You can still walk through players, that need not change.
A simple +4 or -4 as was in PnP would suffice for starters, with enhancement line to follow.

sephiroth1084
01-16-2011, 07:16 PM
Straight additions to AC aren't going to solve any problems. The system itself needs some revisions, whether that is in implementing a base miss chance, rolling for AC, implementing scaling iterative attacks for monsters, simply dropping epic monster to-hit values (should probably be done irrespective of whatever else gets considered), moving the system to be an AC/DR amalgamation, some combination of these or something entirely different, it is the base system that needs tuning.

uhgungawa
01-16-2011, 08:06 PM
i miss the days of -8 being great AC.

But -10 was the best :D

And 25 STR was Godly

grodon9999
01-16-2011, 08:11 PM
But -10 was the best :D

And 25 STR was Godly

And Thor had 400 HP . . .

Hokiewa
01-16-2011, 08:15 PM
There are much worse balance issues in the game already, than a potentially unhittable AC.

Always getting hit on a 20 makes AC almost as useless in epic as it is currently anyway.

With the damage done by epic mobs, you will still die fast when facing a few at a time.

Getting around the 20 always hits and factoring DR into AC is the only way I can see to make AC relevant.

You can't remove the 20 or the <1>, and carry the DnD license. I don't care what edition is out now, a 20 hits, a 1 misses and if you remove that, you have successfully killed the product.

Daggaz
01-16-2011, 08:16 PM
And Thor had 400 HP . . .

And if you reached level seven, you were deemed an elder and were given a pension by the local villagers, who had never even heard of an adventurer living so long, let alone seen one..

Jahmin
01-16-2011, 08:31 PM
Haven't seen either mentioned during the many discussions on how to help make AC meaningful, and I'm suprised at that, maybe they just seem too obvious. They are exactly what it says on the tin, two simple additions that could make building for AC a lot simpler, but that are completely optional and unneccessary for those nt building for AC. Inspiration taken from an existing mechanic - Racial Toughness.


Racial Dodge I
Usage: Passive
Cost: 1 action point
Spent: 7 action points
Requires All of: Dodge
Available to level 3 (Race)
Grants you 2 additional armour class if you have the Dodge feat.


Racial Combat Expertise I
Usage: Passive
Cost: 1 action point
Spent: 7 action points
Requires All of: Combat Expertise
Available to level 3 (Race)
Grants you 2 additional Armour Class whilst Combat Expertise is active.


Same progression in AP cost/level as Racial Toughness, though possibly acting as an alternate (Dwarf/WF only get Dodge/CE up to II, whilst Halfling/Elves get IV, opposite of how Racial Toughness works).

Simple, uses and existing mechanic, and whilst not completely solving the issue, makes building for AC a lot easier.

Not knocking the idea as I support it since I believe AC _should_ matter, but FYI these essentially existed and were removed during the Enhancement Nerf :(

NaturalHazard
01-16-2011, 08:36 PM
Just lower ther to-hits in epic another 10 and it's fine.

and maybe add some better ac gear so we can more consolidate our slots for ac?

Cloista
01-16-2011, 09:00 PM
That'd explain the lack of suggestions for them then. The enhancement nerf was pre-EU though, and as such, before my time.

sephiroth1084
01-16-2011, 10:21 PM
Not knocking the idea as I support it since I believe AC _should_ matter, but FYI these essentially existed and were removed during the Enhancement Nerf :(
These probably would be worth reinstating, in a general sense, but they wouldn't really solve anything, and contribute to the problem of AC-focused characters having a difficult time balancing AC with DPS, as they would necessarily be drawing quite a bit of AP away from other things. That is problematic.

I still maintain that rolling for AC and introducing descending iterative attacks for monsters would solve most of the problems we have with AC, in that it doing so would expand the range of useful AC values quite a bit, would make it rather difficult to attain an entirely unhittable AC (clearly something the devs are at least a little concerned with for epics) while also potentially making combat more interesting.

TigrisMorte
01-16-2011, 10:35 PM
How odd that original AC was none at 10 and max at -10.
That 10 to -10 seems a familiar spread.
Perhaps the issue is not having based the game on AD&D rather than this newfangled, "Hey you kids! Get off my lawn!", 3.5 blasphemy.

grodon9999
01-16-2011, 10:37 PM
and maybe add some better ac gear so we can more consolidate our slots for ac?

and make it possible for a guy in armor wot get closer TWFing to a guy in pajamas.