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View Full Version : Allow dark monks to buff pale masters



wax_on_wax_off
01-12-2011, 08:19 PM
1. I suggest to allow dark monks to use their Touch of Despair (dark-dark-dark finisher) as a buff to affect pale masters.

2. You could even allow Touch of Death to be used on Pale Masters as a heal but that is separate (and possibly more unbalancing).

wax_on_wax_off
01-12-2011, 08:43 PM
If this wasn't an option for all dark monks I would like to see it as an option for Henshin Mystic's who choose dark path.

sephiroth1084
01-12-2011, 08:52 PM
It is a buff to Pale Masters. When you prep something with ToDespair, I see lots of pretty purple numbers. That sounds like a buff to me.

wax_on_wax_off
01-12-2011, 09:05 PM
It is a buff to Pale Masters. When you prep something with ToDespair, I see lots of pretty purple numbers. That sounds like a buff to me.

As far as I know though a dark monk can't target a friendly pale master and hit them with touch of despair, or am I wrong?

Alyiakal
01-12-2011, 09:07 PM
He means when an enemy mob has been hit with Touch of Despair, it becomes more vulnerable to negative energy, and as such more vulnerable to a Pale Master nuking it with negative energy spells.

Relenthe
01-12-2011, 09:08 PM
Touch of despair affects the mob, not the player. and is therfore only useful on mobs that take a while to take down

oberon131313
01-12-2011, 09:08 PM
As far as I know though a dark monk can't target a friendly pale master and hit them with touch of despair, or am I wrong?

that's not what was said.

What was said was when a dark monk uses touch of despair, the pale master gets an additional 25% to his negative energy spell damage, making pretty purple numbers.

PopeJual
01-12-2011, 09:17 PM
As far as I know though a dark monk can't target a friendly pale master and hit them with touch of despair, or am I wrong?

I think that he means that the debuff on the victim acts as an effective buff to the damage done by players who cast negative energy spells.

sephiroth1084
01-12-2011, 09:23 PM
Right. Dark monks proxy-buff Pale Masters by debuffing high-HP targets. I like that interaction, though wish it were a little easier to stick the debuff. I don't think Pale Masters need any further interaction between the two. Certainly, I can't think of any monk that would want to spend that much Ki and time to heal a PM for 20 HP or so, or even 500 if you could use TOD on them.

Personally, I'd like ToDespair changed to:
-Reduce incoming positive energy.
-Increase incoming negative energy.
-Fort save or reduce fortification.

Rather than:
-Fort save or reduce fortification and incoming positive energy, and increase negative energy.

wax_on_wax_off
01-12-2011, 10:41 PM
By the suggestion I meant that a dark monk should be able to use ToDespair (and possibly ToD) on a pale master to increase the pale masters self healing ability with the healing amp.

I'm not sure what the duration of ToDespair is but if it was 1 minute/level then it would be worthwhile to hit your parties Pale Master with that to give them 25% "healing" amp. It would also give those monk/lich builds some added utility and attractiveness.

Using ToDeath to heal a Pale Master would also be quite cool and could create some interesting duo's similar to WF arcane + melee duos that exist now.

Whether these abilities would be used or not depends on the style of play that people choose to engage in.

Due to Dark Monks role as pure DPS and not supporting party members at all it would be quite a good idea, imo, to give these 2 options to Henshin Mystics which are dark path monks as well.

sephiroth1084
01-12-2011, 11:46 PM
By the suggestion I meant that a dark monk should be able to use ToDespair (and possibly ToD) on a pale master to increase the pale masters self healing ability with the healing amp.

I'm not sure what the duration of ToDespair is but if it was 1 minute/level then it would be worthwhile to hit your parties Pale Master with that to give them 25% "healing" amp. It would also give those monk/lich builds some added utility and attractiveness. The duration is very short, too short to bother with this kind of buffing. PMs don't need increased healing, really, and certainly not at the cost of the monk's DPS.



Using ToDeath to heal a Pale Master would also be quite cool and could create some interesting duo's similar to WF arcane + melee duos that exist now. There is a huge difference between the two examples. In order to heal with ToD, you'd need to be in melee range, facing the person you want to heal, and could do only once every 15 seconds with prep, while spending the ToD on healing results in drop-off in DPS and it would require a complete change of the way the ability is coded, since we cannot attack party members at all currently. On the other side, a WF combo works because the caster can chuck a scroll or spell quickly in the middle of whatever else they're doing without really interrupting the actions of either party or really negatively impacting overall DPS in a given situation.

I can't imagine anyone ever using this unless they were a PM/monk combo, but then, you wouldn't have ToD anyway, so the point is moot.

wax_on_wax_off
01-13-2011, 12:17 AM
The duration is very short, too short to bother with this kind of buffing. PMs don't need increased healing, really, and certainly not at the cost of the monk's DPS.

There is a huge difference between the two examples. In order to heal with ToD, you'd need to be in melee range, facing the person you want to heal, and could do only once every 15 seconds with prep, while spending the ToD on healing results in drop-off in DPS and it would require a complete change of the way the ability is coded, since we cannot attack party members at all currently. On the other side, a WF combo works because the caster can chuck a scroll or spell quickly in the middle of whatever else they're doing without really interrupting the actions of either party or really negatively impacting overall DPS in a given situation.

I can't imagine anyone ever using this unless they were a PM/monk combo, but then, you wouldn't have ToD anyway, so the point is moot.

Regarding your last point, a PM/monk combo would still have access to ToDespair to up their healing amp (and consequent self healing) so it certainly would be used. If the duration was changed to 1 minute/level if used as a buff (perhaps an extra icon would have to be added but on the same cooldown as ToDespair) then it would be totally fine and very useful as a self buff.

On a pure 20 dark monk it would be simple to hit your parties PM at the beginning of a quest when everyone else is buffing and you are sitting around waiting for everyone (or zerging off without everyone) and it would last between shrines quite fine at 1 minute/level.

A monk is designed as a mobile character and it would be quite possible as a dark monk running around a battlefield to notice that the PM in the party is going down and that no one else is capable of healing them and to hit them with a ToD which doesn't have to prepared (just need it off cooldown and have enough Ki). I've never heard it suggested that a cleric should use their SP to cast heal on enemy undead rather than healing party members as comparatively the HP is more valuable to a party member as healing than as DPS against monsters (who have inflated HP).

Again, regarding ToDeath you wouldn't need to change any existing coding, you would just have to add a separate icon with the buff/heal ability but sharing a cooldown with the regular ability.

sephiroth1084
01-13-2011, 02:24 AM
Regarding your last point, a PM/monk combo would still have access to ToDespair to up their healing amp (and consequent self healing) so it certainly would be used. If the duration was changed to 1 minute/level if used as a buff (perhaps an extra icon would have to be added but on the same cooldown as ToDespair) then it would be totally fine and very useful as a self buff.

On a pure 20 dark monk it would be simple to hit your parties PM at the beginning of a quest when everyone else is buffing and you are sitting around waiting for everyone (or zerging off without everyone) and it would last between shrines quite fine at 1 minute/level.

A monk is designed as a mobile character and it would be quite possible as a dark monk running around a battlefield to notice that the PM in the party is going down and that no one else is capable of healing them and to hit them with a ToD which doesn't have to prepared (just need it off cooldown and have enough Ki). I've never heard it suggested that a cleric should use their SP to cast heal on enemy undead rather than healing party members as comparatively the HP is more valuable to a party member as healing than as DPS against monsters (who have inflated HP).

Again, regarding ToDeath you wouldn't need to change any existing coding, you would just have to add a separate icon with the buff/heal ability but sharing a cooldown with the regular ability.
My point was that Pale Masters don't need such a big increase in their healing ability. Not by any stretch. As it is the healing is super-cheap in all but the most dire of circumstances. The buff at 1 min/level doesn't flesh out dark monks at all. It doesn't suddenly make them better party support or anything like that.

And a monk's mobility has nothing to do with this scenario. For one, you have no clue where the wizard is while you're hitting whatever, so you'd have to break off from DPS, go find the wizard, catch him standing still, and chances are, if he is getting hurt so badly that he needs outside healing, he probably is moving. Moving quite a lot. Have you ever tried hitting something as a monk that was running in a straight, predictable line? Now try that on something that is moving erratically and possibly jumping as well.

This is all ignoring the fact that you're sacrificing a LOT of DPS in order to deliver one heal to a single character, and assumes that you have ToD prep'ed (having it off cooldown and with enough Ki available is preparation). It is hardly worth the dev's time to recode the ability for something that will come up in less than 1% of your game time.

The only time this would be valuable (healing with ToD) would be when:
-you are grouped with a pale master
-the pale master is hurting so badly that his own healing isn't doing the job
-you have 50 ki and ToD off cooldown
-you have nothing better to be doing with your time, ki or DPS

Basically, this will only ever come up if the pale master is incapped and, really, it would be more worthwhile for the devs to either allow them to be healed when at negative HP by their aura, or have the aura turn off and allow them to be healed with negative energy. Then all that is required is someone with UMD or the ability to use an Inflict Light wand, rather than this.

And my comment about this being irrelevant on a PM/monk was that in order to get undead form you necessarily must give up ToD, since the first requires 12 levels of wizard and the latter requires 9 levels of monk.

The benefit of changing ToDespair is worthless to most groups, and incredibly powerful for one narrow subset of other characters. That doesn't seem like a valuable use of developer time.

The benefit of changing ToD is similarly worthless to most groups, is only barely worthwhile for one narrow subset of other characters and is almost never going to be the right play for a monk anyway. That is a complete waste of developer time.

I say, change ToDespair to apply the positive and negative energy adjustments automatically on the strike, leaving the fortification reduction tied to a save and that's it. No need to spend hours, days or weeks of dev time developing some deep-seeded bromance between monks and pale masters.

wax_on_wax_off
01-13-2011, 09:16 AM
My point was that Pale Masters don't need such a big increase in their healing ability. Not by any stretch. As it is the healing is super-cheap in all but the most dire of circumstances. The buff at 1 min/level doesn't flesh out dark monks at all. It doesn't suddenly make them better party support or anything like that.

And a monk's mobility has nothing to do with this scenario. For one, you have no clue where the wizard is while you're hitting whatever, so you'd have to break off from DPS, go find the wizard, catch him standing still, and chances are, if he is getting hurt so badly that he needs outside healing, he probably is moving. Moving quite a lot. Have you ever tried hitting something as a monk that was running in a straight, predictable line? Now try that on something that is moving erratically and possibly jumping as well.

This is all ignoring the fact that you're sacrificing a LOT of DPS in order to deliver one heal to a single character, and assumes that you have ToD prep'ed (having it off cooldown and with enough Ki available is preparation). It is hardly worth the dev's time to recode the ability for something that will come up in less than 1% of your game time.

The only time this would be valuable (healing with ToD) would be when:
-you are grouped with a pale master
-the pale master is hurting so badly that his own healing isn't doing the job
-you have 50 ki and ToD off cooldown
-you have nothing better to be doing with your time, ki or DPS

Basically, this will only ever come up if the pale master is incapped and, really, it would be more worthwhile for the devs to either allow them to be healed when at negative HP by their aura, or have the aura turn off and allow them to be healed with negative energy. Then all that is required is someone with UMD or the ability to use an Inflict Light wand, rather than this.

And my comment about this being irrelevant on a PM/monk was that in order to get undead form you necessarily must give up ToD, since the first requires 12 levels of wizard and the latter requires 9 levels of monk.

The benefit of changing ToDespair is worthless to most groups, and incredibly powerful for one narrow subset of other characters. That doesn't seem like a valuable use of developer time.

The benefit of changing ToD is similarly worthless to most groups, is only barely worthwhile for one narrow subset of other characters and is almost never going to be the right play for a monk anyway. That is a complete waste of developer time.

I say, change ToDespair to apply the positive and negative energy adjustments automatically on the strike, leaving the fortification reduction tied to a save and that's it. No need to spend hours, days or weeks of dev time developing some deep-seeded bromance between monks and pale masters.

I specifically said:


2. You could even allow Touch of Death to be used on Pale Masters as a heal but that is separate (and possibly more unbalancing).

Key words, separate and possibly unbalancing. The main suggestion that I was making here was for Dark Monks to be able to buff PMs with some "healing" amp using ToDespair.

This would be useful in any party in which there was a dark monk and a pale master as it would be a reasonable use of a dark monks time to hit a PM with this (if the duration was 1 minute/level) it wouldn't even be too wasteful to proc as you want to use the incorporeality buff anyway and that counts as a dark move (if it was implemented for ninja-spy).

I have seen numerous posts on the forums regarding pale masters who missed the mabar games and are looked for a little bit of negative energy amp.

Regarding ToD, have you not ever seen an arcane shield blocking in a firewall? Sounds like a perfect opportunity to receive a little bit of healing from friendly sources. In fact, I carry a shield on any character that can cast firewall, don't you?

sephiroth1084
01-13-2011, 09:53 AM
Key words, separate and possibly unbalancing. The main suggestion that I was making here was for Dark Monks to be able to buff PMs with some "healing" amp using ToDespair. And I addressed both separately. It isn't my fault that you chose to not read everything I wrote, verbose though it may have been.


This would be useful in any party in which there was a dark monk and a pale master as it would be a reasonable use of a dark monks time to hit a PM with this (if the duration was 1 minute/level) it wouldn't even be too wasteful to proc as you want to use the incorporeality buff anyway and that counts as a dark move (if it was implemented for ninja-spy). And what I said was that in most parties this will be a complete waste, since the number of PM wizards is rather low. At best, you have something like a 33% chance of having a PM in the group, assuming you always run with an arcane caster and aren't picky about whether it is a sorcerer, PM or AM wizard, though I suspect that Archmage is more popular than Pale Master is among the wizarding community as a whole.

That is irrelevant in any case. PMs don't need a buff to their incoming negative energy, which I stated, and a quest-long buff of that power should cost a hell of a lot more than 30 seconds spent activating the ability at the beginning of a quest/shrine essentially for free. No other monk buffs last longer than 1 minute for a reason: the maintenance is the real cost there: the time to build up to the buff and the impact doing so has on how you play the monk. A longer duration buff will do nothing to make playing a dark monk any more interesting; it won't change your playstyle whatsoever.



I have seen numerous posts on the forums regarding pale masters who missed the mabar games and are looked for a little bit of negative energy amp. And there are plenty of people making the counter-argument that Pale Master healing is already powerful enough as is. And what do you need the Mabar cloak for? Everything on it can be obtained elsewhere, some even in the same slots. If negative energy amp is that important, I'd much rather see items, potions or something similar added than to have this rather pointless and overly narrow ability applied to monks. It does nothing to make them any better or more interesting.


Regarding ToD, have you not ever seen an arcane shield blocking in a firewall? Sounds like a perfect opportunity to receive a little bit of healing from friendly sources. In fact, I carry a shield on any character that can cast firewall, don't you?
Yes, I have seen and have done this. If I'm on my Pale Master, I stand and block and heal myself. And if it's not an epic quest, I probably don't even need to activate Negative Energy Burst, even. If the shield blocking isn't reducing incoming damage enough, I move or heal. The last thing I'd want when I'm on my wizard is some DPS character leaving off killing stuff to throw me a heal I'll probably get to myself before they even reach me. I'm certainly never EVER going to rely on some monk to be paying attention to my life bar with ToD ready and waiting and the inclination to run to my aid. It's unreliable for me, a waste for him, and detrimental to the entire group for a DPS character to go bothering about something else.

Divine healing works because it is always at the ready and easy to apply, neither of which would be true for this.

I'm sorry, you love the idea, I don't know why, but it isn't a good one. Move one.