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Memnir
01-12-2011, 02:47 PM
Okay, so you don't want to talk (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=296239) about the cluster-fail that is the Rep system. I get it. It's not a comfortable discussion for you guys to have, I guess.

So just kill it. Wash it away.

If the Mods can't be bothered to deal with the problems with it, then it's better to just call it a failed effort then to continue it a moment more.


And, before anyone suggests I'm continuing a closed thread - let me just say that this is a new topic. Before, I wanted the Mods to discuss or clarify. I don't want that anymore - I just say it should be killed with fire and be nothing but a bad memory. I no longer want to talk about how to fix it, I want to talk about attending it's funeral. See? Different topic entirely.

Bradik_Losdar
01-12-2011, 02:53 PM
Never understood why they put it place in the first place. It was a bad idea from the start.

Other forums function just fine without one.

/signed to remove the whole rep system. (And NOT replace it with something else!)

Schmoe
01-12-2011, 02:53 PM
Okay, so you don't want to talk (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=296239) about the cluster-fail that is the Rep system. I get it. It's not a comfortable discussion for you guys to have, I guess.

So just kill it. Wash it away.

If the Mods can't be bothered to deal with the problems with it, then it's better to just call it a failed effort then to continue it a moment more.


And, before anyone suggests I'm continuing a closed thread - let me just say that this is a new topic. Before, I wanted the Mods to discuss or clarify. I don't want that anymore - I just say it should be killed with fire and be nothing but a bad memory. I no longer want to talk about how to fix it, I want to talk about attending it's funeral. See? Different topic entirely.


I agree. I'd rather not have a forum system that is awash in mystery and unclear expectations. It serves no real purpose, so just do away with it.

Dagone
01-12-2011, 02:57 PM
"Better yet, let's just kill the forums"

"Even better...let's kill DDO.com"

"Tom, call the President; we're giving up our position on the Internet ":)

agree witn Mem; Rep system more harm than good

Dag

Xeraphim
01-12-2011, 03:00 PM
Never understood why they put it place in the first place. It was a bad idea from the start.

Other forums function just fine without one.

/signed to remove the whole rep system. (And NOT replace it with something else!)

To expound: Other forums that attempted a rep system showed the same results that this rep system show - that it does not work as intended. Other forums were wise and quick to action in eliminating the problematic and ultimately nepotistic Rep System.

/signed to fully remove the Rep System

X

Aussir
01-12-2011, 03:04 PM
/signed

This rep system is constantly abused and the mods don't give a flying turd about it. Kill it.

If you really want people to praise anyone, give us the "Thanks" system (can be seen in action here: http://personalitycafe.com/forum/).

Also, maybe get a spine and give us an area like the one on this forum that I posted, where we can vent as long as we don't "name&shame".

Chai
01-12-2011, 03:06 PM
And, before anyone suggests I'm continuing a closed thread - let me just say that this is a new topic. Before, I wanted the Mods to discuss or clarify. I don't want that anymore - I just say it should be killed with fire and be nothing but a bad memory. I no longer want to talk about how to fix it, I want to talk about attending it's funeral. See? Different topic entirely.

/agree

The alternative to fixing it is doing away with it. There has been a clear indication that not only is it not going to be fixed, the discussion is not even on the table.

rest
01-12-2011, 03:08 PM
I'd gladly do away with it since it doesn't serve any purpose but to antagonize people.

Hordo
01-12-2011, 03:08 PM
/signed


It is an idea whose time has certainly passed.

stainer
01-12-2011, 03:09 PM
If we do away with it there will be no way for you to tell how great a poster I am.

DelScorcho
01-12-2011, 03:11 PM
Okay, so you don't want to talk (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=296239) about the cluster-fail that is the Rep system. I get it. It's not a comfortable discussion for you guys to have, I guess.

So just kill it. Wash it away.



+1 rep! Oh wait ...
and /signed

Monroid
01-12-2011, 03:11 PM
I just need to ask this: Do you need a certain ammount of reputation to give reputation, or do you need to be a VIP or something?

I'm at 72 and I can't give any, but I keep getting "blue boxes", which as I've seen on other forums, is what happens when people with negative reputation give you negative or positive reputation.

So... what's with that?

PopeJual
01-12-2011, 03:11 PM
/signed with the caveat that I think the rep system should be drowned rather than killed in a fire.

And I say that as someone who is generally pleased with his own greenis.

BurnerD
01-12-2011, 03:11 PM
I'd rep you for this but that would be contrary to the purpose of this thread :)

/Signed - More Cons than Pros

Memnir
01-12-2011, 03:14 PM
I just need to ask this: Do you need a certain amount of reputation to give reputation,Yep - you need to hit the Magic Number of 1500 to hand out Neg.

I'm not surprised that you didn't know... there is a Mod post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=184383) on Rep, but it's very well hidden and not easy to find or reference. I'm not sure why the Mods decided the rules on Rep should be so well hidden... but they certainly are, tucked away as they are as the sole post in an obscure and dusty corner of the forums. Almost like they don't want us to know or find em easily.

PopeJual
01-12-2011, 03:15 PM
Yep - you need to hit the Magic Number of 1500 to hand out Neg.

You can hand out Positive rep below that threshold, however. Except that some people can't give positive rep either for some reason. I don't know why.

Cyr
01-12-2011, 03:16 PM
/signed

If you can't even talk about a system then it seems that system needs to go away.

mws2970
01-12-2011, 03:16 PM
/signed

Scraap
01-12-2011, 03:17 PM
/signed

Just put the poor horse out of it's misery already.

patang01
01-12-2011, 03:19 PM
So we're replacing it with a verbal I agree or I disagree with a possibility to also expand on why?

No, that's just to easy. There's a catch isn't there?

/signed

Impaqt
01-12-2011, 03:19 PM
Might as well get rid of it....


Heading to UserCP to Shut down my Greenis...

Memnir
01-12-2011, 03:22 PM
Heading to UserCP to Shut down my Greenis...I just did so myself.

rest
01-12-2011, 03:23 PM
RIP Greenises

Or is it Greeni?

flynnjsw
01-12-2011, 03:27 PM
Also, maybe get a spine and give us an area like the one on this forum that I posted, where we can vent as long as we don't "name&shame".

Such a place already exists. :D

/Signed Mem

Chai
01-12-2011, 03:29 PM
Might as well get rid of it....


Heading to UserCP to Shut down my Greenis...

Yeap, there we go. Barn door is closed now.

Thrudh
01-12-2011, 03:29 PM
What exactly is the problem with the rep system?

I'm fine with killing it... but what exactly annoys you guys so much about it? It's pretty easy to ignore...

Memnir
01-12-2011, 03:32 PM
What exactly is the problem with the rep system?I detailed my problems with it in another thread where I begged the Mods to clarify how the Rep System works - but it met with an early death. If you'd like to know more - please click the Fix It link found the in the yellow section of my siggy. Take ya right to it.

But please, this is not the place to talk about what is wrong with it or how to fix it. That thread has passed on. This thread is about the basic fact that it should die.
If anyone would like to discuss how to fix Rep - please open another topic, as this one is only to discuss the end to the Rep System.

ArkoHighStar
01-12-2011, 03:32 PM
/signed and turned off

Impaqt
01-12-2011, 03:32 PM
What exactly is the problem with the rep system?

I'm fine with killing it... but what exactly annoys you guys so much about it? It's pretty easy to ignore...

when some people make a game out of getting neg rep with no consequences, the system is useless.

flynnjsw
01-12-2011, 03:32 PM
What exactly is the problem with the rep system?

I'm fine with killing it... but what exactly annoys you guys so much about it? It's pretty easy to ignore...

See old topic

Chai
01-12-2011, 03:34 PM
What exactly is the problem with the rep system?

I'm fine with killing it... but what exactly annoys you guys so much about it? It's pretty easy to ignore...

This discussion was already attempted. We are onto a new topic now which is unrelated to that one.

Nevthial
01-12-2011, 03:35 PM
/signed

I never understood why it was implemented in the first place after the Turbine Community Members themselves opted to not utilize it. Makes for a double standard.

Yajerman01
01-12-2011, 03:37 PM
sounds good to me, I never really understood the concept of it other then its epeen value.

Why just today I got neg repped becasue I stated and laughed that I got neg repped in a post. Silly source of power that be, fortunately for me the Tard sent me a message letting me know he negged me with really no rationale, sad, truly sad.

/signed

http://www.ksu.edu/thetaxi/pictures/brothers/jumping_bridge.jpg

Braegan
01-12-2011, 03:44 PM
/signed

Astria
01-12-2011, 03:45 PM
/signed

PopeJual
01-12-2011, 03:53 PM
sounds good to me, I never really understood the concept of it other then its epeen value.

Why just today I got neg repped becasue I stated and laughed that I got neg repped in a post. Silly source of power that be, fortunately for me the Tard sent me a message letting me know he negged me with really no rationale, sad, truly sad.

/signed

Yeah, that was me. I really dislike when people complain about neg rep since it comes across as trolling for rep. It's unfortunate that posting your reason for giving neg rep is now also an infractionable offense.

Chai
01-12-2011, 04:01 PM
Yeah, that was me. I really dislike when people complain about neg rep since it comes across as trolling for rep. It's unfortunate that posting your reason for giving neg rep is now also an infractionable offense.

This right here is reason # 952 why the rep system needs to be done away with. Keep the report button. If something isnt reportable, its not worth bantering back and forth with rep. People cant be hard nosed when it suits them and then super sensitive when it also suits them. Something about having your cake and eating it too comes to mind.

Bladedge
01-12-2011, 04:04 PM
/
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i208/bladedge/Misc/nogreenies.jpg

PopeJual
01-12-2011, 04:08 PM
This right here is reason # 952 why the rep system needs to be done away with. Keep the report button. If something isnt reportable, its not worth bantering back and forth with rep. People cant be hard nosed when it suits them and then super sensitive when it also suits them. Something about having your cake and eating it too comes to mind.

Since reporting someone can get them kicked off the forums entirely, I try to reserve that for the most extreme cases of offensive posting.

NeutronStar
01-12-2011, 04:10 PM
Sorry guys, but I disagree.

For some (including me), the Rep system acts as a"carrot," if you will, that keeps us from getting too "nasty," "condescending," or otherwise too "negative" on the Forums.

Sure, I'd like to think I could do it on my own and maybe I can but in addition to keeping me and others on the straight and narrow, it also acts as an incentive to be helpful, funny, or even just participate in the DDO Forums.

I would like it to stay (with some modifications) to be honest.

Schmoe
01-12-2011, 04:12 PM
Since reporting someone can get them kicked off the forums entirely, I try to reserve that for the most extreme cases of offensive posting.

Ditto. Reporting is not something to be taken lightly, as this place operates under a 10 strikes and you're out policy, and you can get strikes for innocent things that you posted a year ago.

h4x0r1f1c
01-12-2011, 04:14 PM
NO!!!

"You currently have 140 reputation points."

Chai
01-12-2011, 04:15 PM
Sorry guys, but I disagree.

For some (including me), the Rep system acts as a"carrot," if you will, that keeps us from getting too "nasty," "condescending," or otherwise too "negative" on the Forums.



This is what it is SUPPOSED to do, however this is not what it gets used for, heh.

Hendrik
01-12-2011, 04:16 PM
Might as well get rid of it....


Heading to UserCP to Shut down my Greenis...

If it no longer serves it original purpose and is causing more problems, both quite obvious, it needs to be put in the same place as the leaderboards.

Thrudh
01-12-2011, 04:17 PM
I detailed my problems with it in another thread where I begged the Mods to clarify how the Rep System works - but it met with an early death. If you'd like to know more - please click the Fix It link found the in the yellow section of my siggy. Take ya right to it.

But please, this is not the place to talk about what is wrong with it or how to fix it. That thread has passed on. This thread is about the basic fact that it should die.
If anyone would like to discuss how to fix Rep - please open another topic, as this one is only to discuss the end to the Rep System.

Ah interesting thread... thanks for the link

Talon_Moonshadow
01-12-2011, 04:17 PM
Yeah, that was me. I really dislike when people complain about neg rep since it comes across as trolling for rep. It's unfortunate that posting your reason for giving neg rep is now also an infractionable offense.

I mention neg rep for the same reason that I post many of the posts that gets it to begin with.. to point out when people act like jerks. When they do an action that is not nice to others.

It would be more appropriate if I was not bringing up my own neg rep, but I cannot see anyone else's. Mine's the only neg rep I know anything about.

I do not give neg rep back in revenge. Although I did give some to someone who made a comment that was just being a jerk. But not for disagreeing with me and not for just giving me neg rep.

Anyway. Let me think about this forst before I decide. I may turn mine off too. As I really dislike a system that promotes ganging up on people you don't like, and bullying them into keeping their mouth shut.

Also kinda upset at the Turbine's version of "don't ask, don't tell" too.

NeutronStar
01-12-2011, 04:17 PM
This is what it is SUPPOSED to do, however this is not what it gets used for, heh.

If it gets used that way for me, how can you say it doesn't?

h4x0r1f1c
01-12-2011, 04:18 PM
Please don't do this! I feel like now that I finally have a little "greenis" you want to shut me out..

Thrudh
01-12-2011, 04:19 PM
NO!!!

"You currently have 140 reputation points."

So you're admitting that you game the system? That your goal was neg rep?

h4x0r1f1c
01-12-2011, 04:20 PM
So you're admitting that you game the system? That your goal was neg rep before?

I believe that's reportable.

I don't understand what you just said but I've never wanted to be negative repped.

I said "NO!!!" to the suggestion of removing the rep system, since I finally have street cred now!

Hendrik
01-12-2011, 04:20 PM
So you're admitting that you game the system? That your goal was neg rep before?

I believe that's reportable.

Think it is....

Schmoe
01-12-2011, 04:20 PM
Please don't do this! I feel like now that I finally have a little "greenis" you want to shut me out..

It's not all about you. You are the boil that belies a deeper malignancy.

PopeJual
01-12-2011, 04:21 PM
So you're admitting that you game the system? That your goal was neg rep?

I actually read this as saying that he doesn't want rep to be shut off now that he is in the good-boys-club.

Hendrik
01-12-2011, 04:23 PM
I actually read this as saying that he doesn't want rep to be shut off now that he is in the good-boys-club.

Maybe a note from the MODs changed things?

We shall see.

/popcorn

h4x0r1f1c
01-12-2011, 04:23 PM
I actually read this as saying that he doesn't want rep to be shut off now that he is in the good-boys-club.

"h4x0r1f1c the Noted"

rest
01-12-2011, 04:25 PM
II finally have street cred now!

Maybe to someone who just signed up for the forum and has never seen one of your posts or threads. Everyone else already knows you. No amount of little green boxes will change the perception people have of you. At least no one who has been around more than a few weeks.

Memnir
01-12-2011, 04:25 PM
People... a moment here.

Please don't take the bait. If a certain poster is making statements in... well, their usual way - just ignore it and let it slide by this once without adding to it. Have things been said I'd love to respond to - sure. But, doing so might compromise this thread's lifespan. And I dearly want the Mods to see how many of us want the Rep system deader then Dillinger.

I don't want to give the Mods any excuse to close yet another Rep thread, in other words.



But, as in all things, do as you will.

Memnir
01-12-2011, 04:27 PM
Ah interesting thread... thanks for the linkI thought so too. I just wish some other voices had added to the conversation before ending it.

Oh well.

rest
01-12-2011, 04:27 PM
People... a moment here.

Please don't take the bait. If a certain poster is making statements in... well, their usual way - just ignore it and let it slide by this once without adding to it. Have things been said I'd love to respond to - sure. But, doing so might compromise this thread's lifespan. And I dearly want the Mods to see how many of us want the Rep system deader then Dillinger.

I don't want to give the Mods any excuse to close yet another Rep thread, in other words.



But, as in all things, do as you will.

Mem you know as well as anyone that this thread will get shut down whether or not it degenerates into a flame war or not. Uncomfortable subjects tend to get locked then removed.

Yajerman01
01-12-2011, 04:28 PM
As I really dislike a system that promotes ganging up on people you don't like, and bullying them into keeping their mouth shut.

This is exaclty why its flawed. Somoene who has neg power could easily run through someone elses post and run them down. WHile its blatant and a dev could easily see its intent, the slightly more devious minded will just hit that person a couple of times and/or get another person to knock on that person.

The rep system has no intrinsic value except to embolden those who have achieved the magical number

Memnir
01-12-2011, 04:30 PM
Mem you know as well as anyone that this thread will get shut down whether or not it degenerates into a flame war or not. Uncomfortable subjects tend to get locked then removed.Yes, I know.

But handing them an excuse to close it, knowing that they tend to look for excuses to end uncomfortable threads, just makes it more likely it will be shut down. And, it looks worse for them when they just shut down a valid topic for no reason at all - as opposed to flimsy ones.

stainer
01-12-2011, 04:30 PM
Does you still like me with no Greenis?

Memnir
01-12-2011, 04:31 PM
Does you still like me with no Greenis?I think it's even sexier. But... I feel weird saying so.

Is that wrong? :D

Yajerman01
01-12-2011, 04:32 PM
Does you still like me with no Greenis?


I have never seen Stainer without greenies - something feels different now.:confused:

Chai
01-12-2011, 04:33 PM
Since reporting someone can get them kicked off the forums entirely, I try to reserve that for the most extreme cases of offensive posting.

As it stands right now, I would rather have solely a report system. This causes people to actually think about their actions before they start pushing the big red grief button. Not only could reporting someone have the result you are speaking of, but the person doing the reporting better be reporting something reportable.

As it stands, the neg rep system is not used with the same precaution. It is used with impunity to troll people someone disagrees with more often than it serves its intended purpose. Just as you dont like people complaining about neg rep because you think they are trolling for pos rep, I dont like people who troll neg rep onto the same person repeatedly any time they can, even though the post does not cross the line, simply because its the same person they disagreed with last time.

We need a system that will cause people to actually think about the impact of their actions before using. The rep system aint it. The report system might hold promise.

bobbryan2
01-12-2011, 04:33 PM
Heh, my only infraction is giving out negative rep to someone that annoyed me by using not one but two logical fallacies in a response. But of course... since using logical fallacies in a logical argument isn't an infraction worthy post... then obviously neg repping those fallacies is.

Seriously... the moment they decided that neg rep was to be used only on infraction worthy posts was the moment that the whole system was stupid. They were asking us to moderate their forums for them...

stainer
01-12-2011, 04:33 PM
I think it's even sexier. But... I feel weird saying so.

Is that wrong? :D

No. I just add it the pile of love I get since people saw my pr0n stache picture!

Memnir
01-12-2011, 04:35 PM
They were asking us to moderate their forums for them...Time to call my lawyer and see about getting my back pay. :)

stainer
01-12-2011, 04:36 PM
I am at work, but since I turned my Greenis off did game lag go away? Somebody let me know.

TheDearLeader
01-12-2011, 04:37 PM
Am I doing it right?

My User CP looks weird without Green stuff...

Chazzie
01-12-2011, 04:38 PM
/signed

Blank_Zero
01-12-2011, 04:39 PM
I am at work, but since I turned my Greenis off did game lag go away? Somebody let me know.

Seems it has.

and /signed

Cernunan
01-12-2011, 04:39 PM
Meh, green was never really my color anyhow

/ya

h4x0r1f1c
01-12-2011, 04:40 PM
I don't see what you guys are so worried for. It's almost as if you're angry because the rep system is easily abused.

As I see it, the ones who repeatedly gave me negative rep are the ones who caused this. My ideas are great!

Yajerman01
01-12-2011, 04:42 PM
as It Stands, The Neg Rep System Is Not Used With The Same Precaution. It Is Used With Impunity To Troll People Someone Disagrees With More Often Than It Serves Its Intended Purpose.

Qft

h4x0r1f1c
01-12-2011, 04:42 PM
Qft

I see this all the time and I have no idea what it means.

Consumer
01-12-2011, 04:44 PM
I see this all the time and I have no idea what it means.

quiet fart time

Yajerman01
01-12-2011, 04:44 PM
I see this all the time and I have no idea what it means.


Quirky, fuzzy, Teddybear!

TheDearLeader
01-12-2011, 04:45 PM
I see this all the time and I have no idea what it means.

Quantum Field Theory. Google it.

LordRavnos
01-12-2011, 04:45 PM
/ Quoted For Truth


Also Signed

Alerax
01-12-2011, 04:45 PM
QFT = QUOTED FOR TRUTH
QFT = Quantum field theory
altho, im guessing its the first lol

wow, hard core ninja'ed by the 4 above me, lol

h4x0r1f1c
01-12-2011, 04:46 PM
"Quoted for truth", Googled it.

stainer
01-12-2011, 04:46 PM
Queen Forlona Templepot

Tanka
01-12-2011, 04:48 PM
/unlurk

/signed

/lurk

Chai
01-12-2011, 04:48 PM
I don't see what you guys are so worried for. It's almost as if you're angry because the rep system is easily abused.

As I see it, the ones who repeatedly gave me negative rep are the ones who caused this. My ideas are great!

I dont agree with *most of your suggestions. I also dont believe you should be given neg rep for making your suggestions, provided you arent doing something else outside the posting guidelines. If people cant hang with the fact that you disagree with them, thats THEIR issue and shouldnt become YOUR issue simply because they have the ability to jump up and down on the neg rep button repeatedly. This is why the rep system should just die.

dunklezhan
01-12-2011, 04:52 PM
/ Quoted For Truth


Also Signed

There is an alternative version that means roughly the same and uses the same acronym... what would be the PG-13 version... ah yes: "quite frackin' true". I've seen both given as definitions. But honestly, you want to know what an internet acronym means, I recommend using the internet search provider of your choice.


I actually quite liked the idea of the rep system when I first got here. However, it has clearly been abused horribly in a number of cases, and if people don't use the system honestly, then its fundamentally b0rked. Police can only enforce the law by consent of the people and it only works so long as people play along. People are not playing along, so the 'police' (those with enough greenis being 'civilians' to the mods 'military') cannot enforce the law. In which case, do away with the idea of the police, some of whom are clearly incapable of understanding the 'law' they are supposed to be enforcing, and bring in the frackin' miltary who don't need to much care what the law is because they have 50mm cannon.

All of which rambling leads me, with some sadness that one of the most mature gaming communities on teh interwebs can't collectively seem to manage being grown ups, to this:

/signed.

Montrose
01-12-2011, 04:53 PM
The system is, was, and always will be fundamentally flawed. Given the recent events, it seems it is also corrupt.

Rumbaar
01-12-2011, 04:56 PM
But how will those that have 1500+ rep feel better about themselves if it's removed?

h4x0r1f1c
01-12-2011, 04:58 PM
But how will those that have 1500+ rep feel better about themselves if it's removed?

Not to mention everyone else who would like such an opportunity.

Yajerman01
01-12-2011, 04:59 PM
But how will those that have 1500+ rep feel better about themselves if it's removed?

you look like your in that mark, so tell us how you feel, start with your childhood and we can go from there <leans back in his chair and tokes on his pipe>:D

Lagin
01-12-2011, 05:02 PM
/signed

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/animated/th_ibtl.gif?t=1294873304 (http://s299.photobucket.com/albums/mm299/chefricochet/animated/?action=view&current=ibtl.gif)

wolflordnexus
01-12-2011, 05:02 PM
No way Mem you gotta at least let me get to 1500 first so I can rep grief Chai

dunklezhan
01-12-2011, 05:02 PM
But how will those that have 1500+ rep feel better about themselves if it's removed?

We need no such trappings, for we shall thrive in the loving arms of Mystery herself, oblivious and above such petty mortal concerns...

Or, y'know. In the PvP pit with our AAs and manyshot off cooldown.

Missing_Minds
01-12-2011, 05:03 PM
Time to call my lawyer and see about getting my back pay. :)

nothing for nothing = nothing.

Kmnh
01-12-2011, 05:03 PM
/signed

Monroid
01-12-2011, 05:05 PM
Yup, this reputation stuff is just way too bugged with me, now how the heck do I turn it off?

A gif.-like walkthrough would be most welcome!

DelScorcho
01-12-2011, 05:06 PM
Hmmm, I never heard about mulligans when they pitched the rep system. Are you sure it isn't for sale at the DDO store ... :D

dunklezhan
01-12-2011, 05:08 PM
Yup, this reputation stuff is just way too bugged with me, now how the heck do I turn it off?

A gif.-like walkthrough would be most welcome!

1. User CP from bar at top of forums but below the banner>now look on left hand side under settings and options>choose "Edit options">second tick box down> Untick > scroll to bottom >click save.
2. ????
3. Profit.

Doxmaster
01-12-2011, 05:13 PM
I considered agreeing with you Memnir...then I saw this:
http://www.ksu.edu/thetaxi/pictures/brothers/jumping_bridge.jpg[/QUOTE]

I had to think...If all the cool kids with large greeni were jumping off a bridge...would I?
Nope

I would agree to the system getting a reset though. If giving neg rep takes twice as much from your own, people would be more careful with it.

NaturalHazard
01-12-2011, 05:13 PM
agreed

/ signed

And i was getting closer and closer to that magical number without posting any funny pics 2 :P

Bloodhaven
01-12-2011, 05:17 PM
Posting funny pics is the lazy mans way to get that magic number.

Memnir
01-12-2011, 05:17 PM
nothing for nothing = nothing.Well, I'm glad you said something because I really was on the phone to my lawyer and totally not kidding about it.

Really. True story. Happens all the time. :)

Bwahahaha
01-12-2011, 05:17 PM
Agree.

/Signed.

I'm getting grief from a guild that I left and they are trying to annoy me with it.

Lol, as if I care...

:)

Memnir
01-12-2011, 05:19 PM
Hmmm, I never heard about mulligans when they pitched the rep system. Are you sure it isn't for sale at the DDO store ... :DNext sale for Turbine Tuesday: Forum Mulligan tokens!

TR your Rep today!

:D

h4x0r1f1c
01-12-2011, 05:19 PM
Next sale for Turbine Tuesday: Forum Mulligan tokens!

TR your Rep today!

:D

What's a Mulligan?

NeutronStar
01-12-2011, 05:21 PM
What's a Mulligan?

Google is your friend.

h4x0r1f1c
01-12-2011, 05:24 PM
A do-over, according to the link about golf.

sacredguyver
01-12-2011, 05:24 PM
Wow... just... wow.

Gonna take some getting used to, but my UserCP looks cleaner without all those rep boxes listed. :D

PopeJual
01-12-2011, 05:27 PM
(how do I get interviewed by DDO because I have lots of cool ideas)


I think you have to join a guild, be promoted to officer and then kick as many members out of the guild as possible before you get distracted by something shiny.

ArkoHighStar
01-12-2011, 05:29 PM
I think you have to join a guild, be promoted to officer and then kick as many members out of the guild as possible before you get distracted by something shiny.

not that is funny right there

I don't care who you are:D

Mr_Ed7
01-12-2011, 05:34 PM
I am not talking about sleeping with your grandmother.

I am talking about us of the Grey Box.

I could not keep-up with the negative rep I incurred, at times it was because I voiced a contrary opinion.

I had not choice but to opt out of the system.

I have wrote to Turbine that Facebook purposely does not utilize a "dislike" button for a reason. They felt it did not reprsent the spirt of the site.

I feel as though negative rep actually does go against the very spirt of D&D.

Give postive rep if you like what someone says.
Otherwise I would rather see it wiped.

Consumer
01-12-2011, 05:35 PM
I have wrote to Turbine that Facebook purposely does not utilize a "dislike" button for reason. They felt it did not reprsent the spirt of the site.

You must have got a substantial and informative reply to that letter!

KingOfCheese
01-12-2011, 05:37 PM
While it has some flaws, the existence of the rep system has been a good thing for me. I certainly have posted more (and hopefully contributed more beneficially to the community) than I did before the system came out. The positive feedback I've gotten via the rep system has encouraged a number of my posts and shaped the manner in which I post--I think it has honed my tone a bit, which overall seems to have a positive impact.

Specifically, my posts generally fall into three categories: advice, humor, and debate. Since the rep system went into place, my advice posts have become more detailed and accurate; my humor posts more carefully thought out with an eye to not creating offense; and my debate posts more carefully worded and reasoned.

Is that a result of a weakness of mine (a need to have my ego stroked in some manner)? Certainly yes. But that being said, I think the outcome--independent of the merits of the underlying motivation--has been a positive one for me and the community.

So overall, I like the system and would opt not for the kill (even if that means keeping a flawed system). If it went away--would I cry? No. But on balance, I'd keep it.

Mr_Ed7
01-12-2011, 05:38 PM
You must have got a substantial and informative reply to that letter!

You know, no reply.

Twerpp
01-12-2011, 05:41 PM
I think they should not only keep it but add Greater Rep Elixirs to the DDO store.

Dirac
01-12-2011, 05:44 PM
I read all of the previous thread, and about half of this one. I disagree with killing the rep system. It has real problems that could be addressed. Memnir's points from before are well taken. However:

1. I don't think just becuase they killed the last thread without saying anything means they won't ever discuss or touch the subject again. They may be open to changing it to make it better, but not willing to talk about it just this minute.

2. I believe it is useful to have a quick option to support what someone said other than repeat their post with a qft, or whatever. It is also useful to have a middleground between doing nothing and flaming a poster or reporting them for abuse. The rep system does this and is fast - requires no long winded replies.

3. It has made a measurable effect on my posts. I think twice before I get too snarky in a response. I may make it anyway, but I think twice about it. It gives a reason, if nothing else, to think twice about what one says. No doubt some really, truely don't care, but I'm probably not the only one who it has affected at least slightly.

4. There is evidence of neg rep working as well. I once received a pm concerning a heated discussion in one thread. I could not tell if they were asking me honest questions, or wether they were being a sarcastic troll. I did not recognize the name. But the 2 red bars saved me the time talking the the individual.

My 2 cents: keep it and work to improve it.

voodoogroves
01-12-2011, 05:46 PM
If we do away with it there will be no way for you to tell how great a poster I am.

lmao

Dark_Uncle72
01-12-2011, 05:48 PM
/signed...
If I wanted to in a popularity contest, I'd be back in high school....

irivan
01-12-2011, 05:52 PM
/signed

I have long advocated the abolition of the high school drama clubs best actor nomination.

Rep in the green does nothing to confirm that the poster is reputable, it just means he has people who like him/her for whatever reason, it could be because they are funny, that they simply agree with consensus, or just have lots of friends who give them a free pass, even if they are being complete jerks.

Neg rep usually imparts some things too, like you are objective and people hate being disagreed with, or that you are a total ass and you are getting nailed for it, or you are engrossed in a deep theoretical suggestion thread, and people get really hostile for some reason over suggestions. Whatever. But the fact that being moderated by the devs only means that your posts might be read, but even they dont, i know because i have had high neg rep, and high pos rep, and nothing seems to matter over there.

Now something that does matter is when some one gets reported. You will get infractions and if you do it to much, you will be banned. Seems to be the only system that matters. Dont get me wrong, if you report some one for something they didnt do, you get the infraction. So they do this fairly well, however ****ed you get when you get one, the result is the same, dont mess with them or they will boot you.

So as it turns out, and like i have been saying all along, and whether they admit it or not, in action it was always meant to be a popularity contest, and just like reality TV that gets old too.

Buggss
01-12-2011, 05:52 PM
HELL YEAH!!!

Nuff said...

Yajerman01
01-12-2011, 05:57 PM
HELL YEAH!!!

Nuff said...


Your red sig line is not true as I was neg repped before because I erased something in my post and did not fill it back up. I got double negged and reported the abuse. 2 weeks later it was removed.

flynnjsw
01-12-2011, 06:00 PM
Your red sig line is not true as I was neg repped before because I erased something in my post and did not fill it back up. I got double negged and reported the abuse. 2 weeks later it was removed.

Well then they like you better. I tried twice on 2 speperate occasions and neither were removed.

QuantumFX
01-12-2011, 06:02 PM
Well, chances are that the damage has already been done. But, I’ll suggest this anyway. I think the best suggestion comes from the vBulletin forums. Remove the neg rep portion of the system. If anything give high rep users the ability to grant more positive rep in a 24 hour period. The system becomes similar to Facebook’s “Like” system.

Monroid
01-12-2011, 06:13 PM
1. User CP from bar at top of forums but below the banner>now look on left hand side under settings and options>choose "Edit options">second tick box down> Untick > scroll to bottom >click save.
2. ????
3. Profit.

What the hell, guys, where is that thing?!

http://i556.photobucket.com/albums/ss8/Monroid/lolol.jpg

Missing_Minds
01-12-2011, 06:23 PM
What the hell, guys, where is that thing?!

It should be in your top one, "login & privacy" but I can see you only have the "vcard" option.

Odd, because I have vcard, rep, and invisible mode.

Color shouldn't matter, but I use green myself.

Entelech
01-12-2011, 06:34 PM
/signed

Gorbadoc
01-12-2011, 06:36 PM
Most of the arguments we've seen have pointed out that the rules are stupidly obscure or just plain stupid. *I* find this to be a compelling reason to address the issue. I'm not sure it will move the moderators, though.

Suppose you're a moderator. You get back from lunch, and you can spend the remaining hours of your day doing one of two things:
1) Moderate. Deal with "Reported" posts and other disciplinary stuff. This will reduce the number and potency of trolls, thereby making the forums better.
2) Address the concerns of a bunch of people who normally make constructive posts without needing to be moderated.

What's your priority? Your job description is probably something like "Ensure that the forums are a place for constructive conversation"-- playing around with the Reputation rules isn't guaranteed to help with that, while actually moderating is.

Now, I am straw-manning here; I don't KNOW that this is how the moderators think. It can't hurt, though, to focus on arguments for how addressing this issue might actually improve the quality of the forums, or for how addressing this issue might make the forums easier to moderate.

shores11
01-12-2011, 06:37 PM
/signed

I don't understand it either and the ones lucky enough to manipulate their rep up high enough to be able to negative rep others do so with an extreme arrogance against any logical dissention to their points of view. In other words if I read this and disagree then I will negative rep you which is funny as the same exact post will be positive repp'd by others for sharing that point of view.

Hokiewa
01-12-2011, 06:42 PM
I think they should not only keep it but add Greater Rep Elixirs to the DDO store.

Ha! Awesome.

Damionic
01-12-2011, 06:42 PM
Signed in Blood!

..not mine of course..I wouldn't be that wasteful :)

Jahmin
01-12-2011, 06:44 PM
Might as well get rid of it....
Heading to UserCP to Shut down my Greenis...


I just did so myself.

done

long over due

Maxelcat
01-12-2011, 06:53 PM
/signed by opting out of the system.

h4x0r1f1c
01-12-2011, 07:11 PM
If you don't like it, disable your rep.

Leave my new greenis alone!

frznvimes
01-12-2011, 07:20 PM
Leave my new greenis alone!
... what the hell?

Ok, if that isn't proof that the rep system is broken I don't know what is.

Samadhi
01-12-2011, 07:21 PM
/signed.

There is 0 value in using someone's rep bar to judge their content or knowledge, because it is far too easy to get "max" visible rep.
There is 0 value in neg repping someone, because the many users that can't rep outnumber and overwhelm.
Essentially, there is 0 value in the system, at all, so since it serves no purpose, it has no reason to be here.

Make it no more.

KongColeus
01-12-2011, 07:23 PM
Until you BUY something. I am/was a F2P and I could never rep anyone until I bought the 50 buck special.

Now, I am a premium with many of the adventure packs. Just wish I would have known/waited for the 50% off specials.

I know I am not the only one in that boat. At least I paid 25% for most of it and bought a few at 50% off.

dopey69
01-12-2011, 07:40 PM
signed fix or kill
seems easy enough devs no hiding just do it

Samadhi
01-12-2011, 07:43 PM
Heh, my only infraction is giving out negative rep to someone that annoyed me by using not one but two logical fallacies in a response. But of course... since using logical fallacies in a logical argument isn't an infraction worthy post... then obviously neg repping those fallacies is.

Seriously... the moment they decided that neg rep was to be used only on infraction worthy posts was the moment that the whole system was stupid. They were asking us to moderate their forums for them...

Yar.

Edit:
And just for those keeping count, page 8, we have:

3 people against killing the system entirely, 2 because it "makes them behave" and a 3rd because he just got his reset and wants a greenis too.
Everyone else agreeing with the OP.

Sounds like we should kill it to me!! Where's my pitchfork ><

Delt
01-12-2011, 07:52 PM
/angry

I was sporting the gray before all you other poseurs jumped on the bandwagon.

PS - I am proof the rep system is useless. I can neg rep and I have never contributed anything positive or of value to the community

Nevthial
01-12-2011, 07:57 PM
If you don't like it, disable your rep.

Leave my new greenis alone!


I don't usually agree with your suggestion posts, but I'd vote they just give you a forum title.
PvP Suggestor or something similar.
Now drop your greenis !

Robai
01-12-2011, 08:02 PM
I'm not sure how you do it guys, but it is actually very hard to earn positive rep.

For example, I did a very very hard work here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2839346) and got positive rep only 3 times, while accidentally making fun of myself here here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2922212) I've got +1 rep.

For some reason I've got a huge neg rep here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3498536) just for asking a question.

It seems that rep system indeed doesn't work as intended.
So, signed.

Moreover, why F2P can't give any rep?
This is a free to play game, isn't it?

Impaqt
01-12-2011, 08:30 PM
I'm not sure how you do it guys, but it is actually very hard to earn positive rep.

For example, I did a very very hard work here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2839346) and got positive rep only 3 times, while accidentally making fun of myself here here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=2922212) I've got +1 rep.

For some reason I've got a huge neg rep here (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3498536) just for asking a question.

It seems that rep system indeed doesn't work as intended.
So, signed.

Moreover, why F2P can't give any rep?
This is a free to play game, isn't it?

No Offense, but you did a bunch of "Very very hard work" and wrote 20,000+ characters to come to a conclusion everyone has known for 4+ years.

Khopesh is better than Bastard sword.

Farayon
01-12-2011, 08:38 PM
/signed

oberon131313
01-12-2011, 08:39 PM
... what the hell?

Ok, if that isn't proof that the rep system is broken I don't know what is.

this

AyumiAmakusa
01-12-2011, 08:41 PM
Yes, please remove it entirely.

/signed

Lorien_the_First_One
01-12-2011, 08:44 PM
Hax had his neg rep wiped?

Yeah the system is busted to the point its useless.

HarveyMilk
01-12-2011, 08:46 PM
agreed, remove it.

I have no idea why I was ever repped one way or the other by anyone, lol, it's just lame

Robai
01-12-2011, 08:48 PM
No Offense, but you did a bunch of "Very very hard work" and wrote 20,000+ characters to come to a conclusion everyone has known for 4+ years.

Khopesh is better than Bastard sword.

That post wasn't about whether Khopesh is better than Bastard sword. There is average damage formula, which includes any feats, enhancements, abilities, etc.
For example, you can compare
Khopesh + "some feats, enhancements, etc."
vs
Khopesh + "some other feats, enhancements, etc."
And of course you can compare Khopesh vs other weapon too.

That formula isn't complete yet, because it doesn't include DR and fortification.

Sorry for off topic, but I had to explain.

sephiroth1084
01-12-2011, 08:50 PM
You'd think that they guy with more rep than all the gods of Eberron asking for some accountability for, or now the execution of, the rep system would be able to get some kind of action on the issue. :rolleyes:

Cernunan
01-12-2011, 08:55 PM
You'd think that they guy with more rep than all the gods of Eberron asking for some accountability for, or now the execution of, the rep system would be able to get some kind of action on the issue. :rolleyes:

Or at least the common decency of an acknowledgment at the very least if not a response (which is actually whats called for in this case)

Lorien_the_First_One
01-12-2011, 09:03 PM
agreed, remove it.

I have no idea why I was ever repped one way or the other by anyone, lol, it's just lame

Honestly? I don't look at my rep often (generally only during threads like this :p ) but I can't think of a single time I got neg rep where, if I'm being honest with myself, I couldn't clearly see why I got it. (With me...usually being snarky, often the core of what I said was right, but the way I said it met the requirements for neg rep.)

AyumiAmakusa
01-12-2011, 09:11 PM
If you don't like it, disable your rep.

Leave my new greenis alone!

I love you so much and all your posts make so much sense and I think that the mods/devs/Turbine should listen to every one of your suggestions because you're the most awesome player ever. :)

Definitely read my sig before you take me seriously.

PopeJual
01-12-2011, 09:13 PM
Or at least the common decency of an acknowledgment at the very least if not a response (which is actually whats called for in this case)

Have 4-7 days elapsed yet? If not, then don't expect an answer.

...which is one of the more amusing things about their policy on banning people in-game.

If you get a 3 day ban, you should expect to hear a response to your appeal of that ban just a day or two after the ban is complete.

WIN!

PopeJual
01-12-2011, 09:15 PM
Honestly? I don't look at my rep often (generally only during threads like this :p ) but I can't think of a single time I got neg rep where, if I'm being honest with myself, I couldn't clearly see why I got it. (With me...usually being snarky, often the core of what I said was right, but the way I said it met the requirements for neg rep.)

I'm about 50-50. 1/2 of the time that I get a neg rep, I think, "yeah, I deserved that." The other half of the time, I'm just bewildered. The fact that I don't get negative rep on at least some posts that really do deserve it make up for that second half, though, so I don't complain in the thread when I do get neg rep (...and for clarity, I'm not saying that Lorien is complaining here).

Ganolyn
01-12-2011, 09:19 PM
Or at least the common decency of an acknowledgment at the very least if not a response (which is actually whats called for in this case)


He got a response. He was quoted the party dogma and told to get in line or else. I would be surprised if this line of inquiry didn't get the same treatment.

sephiroth1084
01-12-2011, 09:27 PM
I'm about 50-50. 1/2 of the time that I get a neg rep, I think, "yeah, I deserved that." The other half of the time, I'm just bewildered. The fact that I don't get negative rep on at least some posts that really do deserve it make up for that second half, though, so I don't complain in the thread when I do get neg rep (...and for clarity, I'm not saying that Lorien is complaining here).
I take the same stance unless I am completely bewildered by why a particular post garnished neg rep. Then I typically put up a post asking, "Why?" Sometimes that post gets neg rep. Sigh.

Gorbadoc
01-12-2011, 09:34 PM
He got a response. He was quoted the party dogma and told to get in line or else. I would be surprised if this line of inquiry didn't get the same treatment.

Frankly, I can't blame the moderators for not wanting to weigh in on these discussions. Memnir has good arguments, but some people get over-excited by this. For example:


/signed.

There is 0 value in using someone's rep bar to judge their content or knowledge, because it is far too easy to get "max" visible rep.
There is 0 value in neg repping someone, because the many users that can't rep outnumber and overwhelm.
Essentially, there is 0 value in the system, at all, so since it serves no purpose, it has no reason to be here.

Make it no more.

I don't think I've ever seen a post by Samadhi that wasn't hyperbolically worded; nevertheless, his and other people's mystifyingly exaggerated disdain is extremely off-putting.

Whenever I've seen a moderator response to something, my impression has been that they are people trying to do a job. I sometimes disagree with how they do their job, but it's clear that yelling at them won't help.

PopeJual
01-12-2011, 09:44 PM
I'm going to bed now, but I would like to thank the moderators for waiting until the morning to lock this thread.

Ganolyn
01-12-2011, 09:49 PM
Whenever I've seen a moderator response to something, my impression has been that they are people trying to do a job. I sometimes disagree with how they do their job, but it's clear that yelling at them won't help.


Being ignored tends to irritate people, especially when they feel they are being resonable and wish an answer to a reasonable request or question. We are not children on a playground. We are paying customers that feel we are being treated in an arbitrary and cryptic way. I have been made to feel more unwelcome here by Turbine than any forumite whom I might have gotten on the wrong side of. Draconian measures never go over well and I don't understand why this is such a taboo topic for them.

Missing_Minds
01-12-2011, 09:53 PM
I'm not sure how you do it guys, but it is actually very hard to earn positive rep.

Earning rep by answering questions factually, and you will get green VERY slowly.

Post a funny picture, make a witty retort, aka make people laugh instead and watch the greens come flowing in.

You know the old axiom that "sex sells"? Well, "funny is money."

Falco_Easts
01-12-2011, 10:04 PM
/Signed and disabled.

Saaluta
01-12-2011, 10:08 PM
/signed

That is all :)

Saal :)

sephiroth1084
01-12-2011, 10:08 PM
Earning rep by answering questions factually, and you will get green VERY slowly.

Post a funny picture, make a witty retort, aka make people laugh instead and watch the greens come flowing in.

You know the old axiom that "sex sells"? Well, "funny is money."
I don't know about that. Pretty sure that well over half my rep is from either providing information or posting topics (not funny ones), but certainly a big chunk is from being sarcastic or witty.

Also, posting a LOT. No, more than THAT! A LOT helps as well as long as your posts are of some value. I have about 1,000 more posts than I have rep. Some folks have a positive post to rep ratio, but I'd imagine they are rare or have little of both.

NaturalHazard
01-12-2011, 10:19 PM
Hax had his neg rep wiped?

Yeah the system is busted to the point its useless.

can I has all my neg rep wiped 2? :p

Samadhi
01-12-2011, 10:20 PM
Hax had his neg rep wiped?

Yeah the system is busted to the point its useless.

Most of my neg rep comes from whenever my forum-stalker gets off timer of being able to neg me again. Once I hadn't been posting much and he went back and neg'd a post from over a year ago. I was impressed - that is some neg-stalker dedication!!

frznvimes
01-12-2011, 10:20 PM
I don't know about that. Pretty sure that well over half my rep is from either providing information or posting topics (not funny ones), but certainly a big chunk is from being sarcastic or witty.

Also, posting a LOT. No, more than THAT! A LOT helps as well as long as your posts are of some value. I have about 1,000 more posts than I have rep. Some folks have a positive post to rep ratio, but I'd imagine they are rare or have little of both.
I have about 2.9:1 (1033 rep, 359 posts):D
I think part of it is that a funny comment/picture only takes a moment to make, while an actually helpful post that people +rep takes some work. It's easier and faster to get rep from witty comments, but I think I get rep from about the same % of them as from the thoughtful posts. Rep never really comes from just answering someone's question helpfully in a few lines, even if that's all it takes.

That being said, someone's forum rep doesn't really say anything about them. People who actually have reputations (good or bad) get them solely through the content of their posts and not their rep score.

edit: /rep off

Fishcatch22
01-12-2011, 10:21 PM
/signed

That way I'll never have to see anyone edit their post to say "neg rep? really? :("

sephiroth1084
01-12-2011, 10:35 PM
You'd think that they guy with more rep than all the gods of Eberron asking for some accountability for, or now the execution of, the rep system would be able to get some kind of action on the issue. :rolleyes:
Haha! As if to prove Mem's point, I received neg rep for this post?

NaturalHazard
01-12-2011, 10:52 PM
Haha! As if to prove Mem's point, I received neg rep for this post?

Dont worry the mods will reset your rep

just

/cry

kidding. :D

Gorbadoc
01-12-2011, 11:11 PM
Being ignored tends to irritate people, especially when they feel they are being resonable and wish an answer to a reasonable request or question. We are not children on a playground. We are paying customers that feel we are being treated in an arbitrary and cryptic way. I have been made to feel more unwelcome here by Turbine than any forumite whom I might have gotten on the wrong side of. Draconian measures never go over well and I don't understand why this is such a taboo topic for them.

If the emboldened part were true of all of us, moderation (and a reputation system) would be unnecessary. I do think the mature outnumber the immature; it's just that bad posts leave a disproportionately noticeable mark. I want to mitigate their effects by emphasizing (as you have) that most of us are sensible people, and that we respect the moderators well enough that they needn't be afraid to talk to us.

Angel_Barchild
01-12-2011, 11:12 PM
/Signed

/sigh
Goodbye greenis I will miss you :(

phillymiket
01-12-2011, 11:19 PM
So just kill it. Wash it away.

Yes.
Finally I can shut this thing off.

I turned off my rep way back when and made an argument for why it should be off on these forums but because multiple people assumed I had negative reputation because it was off I turned it back on.

It is intended to make people change their posting habits and it does but not in a positive or the intended way.
It causes people to fish for rep.
This rep fishing causes undue pile-ons, amplifies arguments, causes unnecessary threads and posts.

Fear of negative reputation doesn't stop trolls but it does stop people from giving an unpopular or contrary point of view IMO.

It is pointless.

/signed

werk
01-12-2011, 11:32 PM
/signed


Disabled as of today.

Sir_Noob
01-12-2011, 11:37 PM
/signed

+ 1 rep for starting this thread...

Oh wait... Nevermind.

Turned off on the day I finally became noted.

Mostly sad that h4x could outpace me in a 24 hour period from -3800 rep.

Broken system. Remove please.

Irinis
01-12-2011, 11:44 PM
I'd much rather see open discussion and fixes for the rep system but since that's not happening: /signed

As for hax, he gets more rep because everyone knows who he is. Now that he's "changed his ways" he can more easily persuade people to give him pos rep because of that. Quite clever really.

QuantumFX
01-12-2011, 11:45 PM
Mostly sad that h4x could outpace me in a 24 hour period from -3800 rep.

Cryin shame really. I was hoping we could come up with a new term to describe the anti-greenis he accumulated. I was going to suggest calling it “the Rusty Venture”.

porq
01-12-2011, 11:46 PM
I'd like to see this abused system die too.

/signed

h4x0r1f1c
01-12-2011, 11:50 PM
You're all being Memnir's tools, he wants you to disable rep because I have greenis!

Please, just because YOU don't like something don't ruin it for everyone else.

If you don't like the rep system, don't use it! Give my rep a chance to grow first..

LunaCee
01-12-2011, 11:56 PM
/signed

You can be helpful as can be, have plenty of posts... accumulate green exceedingly slowly (heck my rep history for recently received rep usually extends back four months!) and then eat drive by neg reps for ~60-80+ as soon as you voice a contrary opinion.

Its not really anything beyond a popularity contest as it currently stands. And the ones for which the system is actually meant to control? (Supposedly of course, with how tight lipped the Devs are about it one really has to wonder.) Does NOTHING to them in reality. If the system cannot properly do what we think it is supposed to do... its seriously time to consider simply removing it.

Falco_Easts
01-12-2011, 11:58 PM
OK I'll bite.


You're all being Memnir's tools, he wants you to disable rep because I have greenis!
How does us disabling our visibile rep affect your greeni's in any way? We can still give and receive. Whether we choose to give is another matter.


Please, just because YOU don't like something don't ruin it for everyone else.
Great advice.


If you don't like the rep system, don't use it! Give my rep a chance to grow first..
If we don't use the rep system, your rep won't grow. So following your advice would have the opposite affect you want.

Waukeen
01-13-2011, 12:00 AM
You're all being Memnir's tools, he wants you to disable rep because I have greenis!

Please, just because YOU don't like something don't ruin it for everyone else.

If you don't like the rep system, don't use it! Give my rep a chance to grow first..

definitely spoken like someone who deserved a reset on months of trolling, inflammatory posts. At least you know that you are the poster child for the problem.

yet turbine just gives out a free pass to troll on.

to the OP: /signed.

porq
01-13-2011, 12:02 AM
If it smells like troll, then report it. Don't take the bait.

h4x0r1f1c
01-13-2011, 12:04 AM
definitely spoken like someone who deserved a reset on months of trolling, inflammatory posts. At least you know that you are the poster child for the problem.

yet turbine just gives out a free pass to troll on.

to the OP: /signed.

I'm not a troll and I'm not a problem. Nobody likes me just because I like PvP and I'm good at it and I kill people in it so they get mad an suddenly make me out to be a bad guy on the forums and make stupid threads about me and always mention me and ruin MY suggestions when it's not right, not fair, and I didn't deserve a freaking -3,608 rep, sir. If you can't tell, I'm excited to be in the green now where I belong for all of my good suggestions you guys bashed for no reason. I'm willing to fight this suggestion with the facts.

Waukeen
01-13-2011, 12:10 AM
If it smells like troll, then report it. Don't take the bait.

Just a nibble.

The only important thing to note is that I like many others support the reasoning and motion to disable green bars and KILL the rep system.

MRH
01-13-2011, 12:10 AM
/signed because its too easy to manipulate the system as it is now.

But why not add instead of +rep or -rep , a Thank you button.

You post something helpfull for anyone.....they "thank you"

This way you can never have negative thanks, and replace the rep bar with :

Thanked x# of times in x# of posts

just a suggestion

Missing_Minds
01-13-2011, 12:13 AM
How does us disabling rep affect your greeni's in any way? We can still give and receive. Whether we choose to give is another matter.

uh... how? If it gets disabled, all greens, reds, and blanks go away. It does not exist. The forum symbology is gone and the only "rep" left is that in your head.

Stormanne
01-13-2011, 12:31 AM
If you can't tell, I'm excited to be in the green now where I belong for all of my good suggestions you guys bashed for no reason. I'm willing to fight this suggestion with the facts.

Did you deserve all of that neg rep, probably not. I know I couldn't bring myself to neg you on quite a few occasions, and I know I've been one of the vocal opponents to most of your ideas. In fact, and I may be wrong here, but I don't think I've ever negged one of your ideas. Now I know I've negged several of your responses to the arguments against your ideas, but never the ideas themselves.

Speaking of your ideas, the majority of them are only good ideas in YOUR opinion. If you haven't been able to tell yet, your opinion carries little weight as to whether the rest of us consider your ideas to be good.

/edit

oh yeah, /signed

AyumiAmakusa
01-13-2011, 12:31 AM
I'm not a troll and I'm not a problem. Nobody likes me just because I like PvP and I'm good at it and I kill people in it so they get mad an suddenly make me out to be a bad guy on the forums and make stupid threads about me and always mention me and ruin MY suggestions when it's not right, not fair, and I didn't deserve a freaking -3,608 rep, sir. If you can't tell, I'm excited to be in the green now where I belong for all of my good suggestions you guys bashed for no reason. I'm willing to fight this suggestion with the facts.

I'm not mad that you like PvP. I just don't think some of your.....suggestions are worth considering.

Such as...a kamekameha DragonBall style spell for Sorcerors?

NaturalHazard
01-13-2011, 12:58 AM
maybe everyone should also just put a certain someone on ignore, Ive had to, the choice was taken away from me.

frznvimes
01-13-2011, 01:02 AM
*a couple things that are probably true, and a boatload of delusions*
gah, enough. Not everything you say is wrong, and I believe you're (usually) not trolling on purpose. However, your grasp of reality is tenuous at best and seems unlikely to improve despite receiving 3608 hints. It's not that I dislike you in any kind of personal way, but your ideas are mostly terrible and your stubbornness irritating.
/shun

MRH
01-13-2011, 01:13 AM
Everyone...............you are letting him "disrupt" this thread and take it off course.

Which i believe is by DDO's rep system , a justified neg rep :D

Now back to the real discussion.

Gorbadoc
01-13-2011, 01:16 AM
[Reputation] is intended to make people change their posting habits and it does but not in a positive or the intended way.
It causes people to fish for rep.
This rep fishing causes undue pile-ons, amplifies arguments, causes unnecessary threads and posts.

Fear of negative reputation doesn't stop trolls but it does stop people from giving an unpopular or contrary point of view IMO.

It is pointless.

/signed

See, I wouldn't go so far as to say it's pointless. Based on my experiences and other posts in this thread, it does have some effect on how people post. Is it a positive effect overall? I'm not sure. I think that's a point where we could have a productive discussion.

To the folks responding to H4x, stop. This thread isn't about him. When he posts something mildly foolish, you're not clever for pointing out what's wrong with it.

NadgersFishtoaster
01-13-2011, 01:19 AM
The most important thing to know on the forums is whether someone is a spammer.

Advice can be given from so many perspectives (end game focused, pvp combatant, existential gamer, etc) that there is not a single "right" answer, except to the the questions that can be answered with a direct reference to the rules.

Usenet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet didn't have recommend systems, or even pictures early on, and yet we managed to get quite a bit of mileage out of it.

You get to recognise people's text, their content and their usual intent.

Spoprockel
01-13-2011, 01:25 AM
/signed

I'm sick of seeing people getting "+1 just because" as well as stealth-negged for no reason.

Kill it! Something like it will never work on the internets.

SaneDitto
01-13-2011, 02:12 AM
I've had it disabled since I registered in the forums, so I won't miss it. *shrug*

It'll probably take a while to break the habit of posting "+1"s anyway :D

Flavilandile
01-13-2011, 02:30 AM
/Signed

As proved by the last few days the system is completely broken and needs to be turned off or ( eventually ) replaced by something else.

Buggss
01-13-2011, 02:31 AM
Well then they like you better. I tried twice on 2 speperate occasions and neither were removed.

This, this, this and a bit more of this.

bryanmeerkat
01-13-2011, 02:35 AM
I am sorry , but I a have read a couple of pages and got a little bored , but still had to point out something that is so blatantly obvious that nobody seemed to mention .

Reputation is completly irrelevant , why would anyone care if the system is there or not , the OP seems physically injured by the repugnance of a system that has no purpose and is completley and utterly pointless .

Why would you waste a moment of your life wishing a system that gets you nothing , does nothing and is inherantly nothing would go away .

Lorien_the_First_One
01-13-2011, 02:41 AM
You're all being Memnir's tools, he wants you to disable rep because I have greenis!

Please, just because YOU don't like something don't ruin it for everyone else.

If you don't like the rep system, don't use it! Give my rep a chance to grow first..


I'm not a troll and I'm not a problem. Nobody likes me just because I like PvP and I'm good at it and I kill people in it so they get mad an suddenly make me out to be a bad guy on the forums and make stupid threads about me and always mention me and ruin MY suggestions when it's not right, not fair, and I didn't deserve a freaking -3,608 rep, sir. If you can't tell, I'm excited to be in the green now where I belong for all of my good suggestions you guys bashed for no reason. I'm willing to fight this suggestion with the facts.

You still don't understand why you got neg rep the first time, so your line will go red again. I'm probably wasting my breath, but here it is...

It's not because you like PvP (ok, that may have earned you a bit, but not most of the red line)
It's not because you have killed someone in PvP (seriously you think anyone cares about that?)
It's because you have demonstrated repeated selfish behavior and tend to be disruptive call other people names. Just look at your last two posts and see if you can see that behavior.

You have also pretty much admitted that at least some of your ideas were designed to be troll threads. At more than one point you invited people to neg rep you. Some of your threads are so completely wacked that no one could possibly believe they weren't troll threads, especially since the wackiest ones tend to come after one of your new PvP ideas is shot down.

Falco_Easts
01-13-2011, 02:44 AM
uh... how? If it gets disabled, all greens, reds, and blanks go away. It does not exist. The forum symbology is gone and the only "rep" left is that in your head.

Sorry, I wasn't the clearest. I meant disabling the visibility of our rep as many in this thread has done not disabling it completely as suggested in the OP. Although looking back I now see he probably meant the latter not the former.

mystafyi
01-13-2011, 02:50 AM
disabling the rep system means nothing. it never worked in the first place. you can never have enough neg rep to be moderated. whole thing is a sham, so stop worrying about a system that does nothing and means nothing.

/fail

MsEricka
01-13-2011, 02:54 AM
Disabling your own rep because it's the right thing to do? $0
Resetting someone's rep who obviously had so much neg rep they should have been banned from the forums? Priceless

Doxmaster
01-13-2011, 03:00 AM
You still don't understand why...

You took the bait.

Dont feel bad. I fell for it once too. Everyone has at some point. Learn to ignore bait posts and only respond with things that CANNOT be misconstrued as a flame; Shortening your post to "You still dont get it, do you?. Oh well." would have the EXACT same effect, but would also keep the cube from nomnom'ing your face.

When responding to what you think is a troll post, dont give a full response, as that will eventually stray close to a flame; close enough for you to get reported and successful-troll'ed. Hit directly on what you absolutely need to say, give 1 or 2 reasons for this if any, then get out and continue your normal posting habits.

I cannot stress the following enough: By responding fully to a troll post, not only are you being trolled harder than ever before, but you are also wasting your time. I've said what you said. You said what you said. Who knows how many other people have said what we said. Why keep saying it? If you cant finish your response post in 1 minute, you need to scrap it and make it shorter and faster. If you spend a total of 5 minutes and cant get it dont under 60 seconds, just make a one sentence response and stop burning the time between your birth and your death.

MRH
01-13-2011, 03:06 AM
disabling the rep system means nothing. it never worked in the first place. you can never have enough neg rep to be moderated. whole thing is a sham, so stop worrying about a system that does nothing and means nothing.

/fail


So if it never worked in the first place , does nothing, and means nothing

Then why have it? That is why the OP is saying to get rid of it

/logic fail

/signed ~ get rid of it.

DDO has given all its children ONE toy that they are fighting over.....if you are a parent and did this to your children. The only way to stop them fighting over it...............is to get rid of it. It's really simple actually.

Gorbadoc
01-13-2011, 03:42 AM
So if it never worked in the first place , does nothing, and means nothing

Then why have it? That is why the OP is saying to get rid of it

/logic fail

/signed ~ get rid of it.

DDO has given all its children ONE toy that they are fighting over.....if you are a parent and did this to your children. The only way to stop them fighting over it...............is to get rid of it. It's really simple actually.

That's not what Memnir said at all.

He started a thread to discuss how to fix the reputation system. The mods' only response was to lock the thread.

The logic at the heart of this thread is:
The reputation system is failing, and the mods are (apparently) not interested in fixing it; therefore the system should be removed. The magnitude of the system's ineffectiveness is immaterial.

flynnjsw
01-13-2011, 04:12 AM
I am sorry , but I a have read a couple of pages and got a little bored , but still had to point out something that is so blatantly obvious that nobody seemed to mention .

Reputation is completly irrelevant , why would anyone care if the system is there or not , the OP seems physically injured by the repugnance of a system that has no purpose and is completley and utterly pointless .

Why would you waste a moment of your life wishing a system that gets you nothing , does nothing and is inherantly nothing would go away .

Read the OP and the links included, plus the follow up posts by a certain person to see where the issue lies.

MRH
01-13-2011, 04:31 AM
The logic at the heart of this thread is:
The reputation system is failing, and the mods are (apparently) not interested in fixing it; therefore the system should be removed. The magnitude of the system's ineffectiveness is immaterial.


As I stated : That is why the OP is saying to get rid of it

kinda what i said right? LOL get rid of = killed with fire ~ meaning will not be here anymore .... why? cause its gone / dead/ finished

Actually what memnir said is : I just say it should be killed with fire and be nothing but a bad memory. I no longer want to talk about how to fix it, I want to talk about attending it's funeral. See? Different topic entirely.

please keep up with the NEW topic at hand.....which is to get rid of it.

SteeleTrueheart
01-13-2011, 06:25 AM
/signed

In fact over a year ago I said this when I turned off my green bar then....


I got neg rep'd for saying I was not going to vote for turbine. It was a mildly negative post and yet someone decided to give me neg rep? I decided to join the grey revolution.

EDIT:

I actually just looked at my rep for the first time in ages and noticed I received neg rep for this post.


There is no such command. Please do not grief players in the paladin forum, the community has made this forum the most polite and we try to keep it that way. Keep it to the general tab in game.

For new players: "/death count" does not exist but "/death" does. this command will cause you to die and resurrect at your bind point (outside the quest). This could cause you to lose the 'no death' 10% xp bonus and possibly the 'no re-entry' 10% xp bonus.

???

Such a good system this rep system.

PopeJual
01-13-2011, 06:47 AM
I'm not a troll and I'm not a problem. Nobody likes me just because I like PvP and I'm good at it and I kill people in it so they get mad an suddenly make me out to be a bad guy on the forums and make stupid threads about me and always mention me and ruin MY suggestions when it's not right, not fair, and I didn't deserve a freaking -3,608 rep, sir. If you can't tell, I'm excited to be in the green now where I belong for all of my good suggestions you guys bashed for no reason. I'm willing to fight this suggestion with the facts.

H4x, if you are going to stick with a victim attitude instead of actually trying to figure out what it is that YOU did to provoke people, then you will be back at -1000 rep soon enough and this whole reset will have been pointless.

PLEASE, take this opportunity that Turbine has graciously offered you (again) and use it to turn your reputation around. People have even given you some positive rep here - not because you deserve it, but because we want you to have a real opportunity to change your attitude and behavior.

Please put that opportunity to good use.

Hendrik
01-13-2011, 08:06 AM
I'm not mad that you like PvP. I just don't think some of your.....suggestions are worth considering.

Such as...a kamekameha DragonBall style spell for Sorcerors?

Or banned people that have to much plat.

Nerfing Iuon stones

Disabling Slayer arrows.

Nerfing Bard song.

Or.

Or.

Or.

List goes on.

It's NOT about the PvP, it IS about the horrendously bad idea's. It is NOT about the person posting, but what the posts contain and how they are presented.

Further posturing that these ideas are 'awesome' and the evidence of postings that show otherwise, only prove the intent is to bait and troll.

Hendrik
01-13-2011, 08:08 AM
I'm not a troll and I'm not a problem. Nobody likes me just because I like PvP and I'm good at it and I kill people in it so they get mad an suddenly make me out to be a bad guy on the forums and make stupid threads about me and always mention me and ruin MY suggestions when it's not right, not fair, and I didn't deserve a freaking -3,608 rep, sir. If you can't tell, I'm excited to be in the green now where I belong for all of my good suggestions you guys bashed for no reason. I'm willing to fight this suggestion with the facts.

Please stop trying to bait the community.

/baitfail

Tumarek
01-13-2011, 08:15 AM
Don't really see any harm in the rep system, if you dont like it hide your rep and ignore the green and red bar of others... solved!


Also i really don't know why people are getting all set up about h4x0r. Yes he posts kinda silly post but nothing insulting, if you dont like his posts dont read them.... solved!

Memnir
01-13-2011, 08:31 AM
if you dont like it hide your rep and ignore the green and red bar of others... solved!You kinda missed the point.

It's not that myself and others in this thread don't like the system. It's the fact that the system has problems, inaccuracies, loopholes, and unclear rules - all of which the Mods seemingly have no interest in fixing. Trying to get them fixed was my first approach, and their answer was to just lock the thread. It is a mechanic that has glaring issues, and the people responsible for the system are blatantly ignoring them - and have since the system went in.

So no - ignoring it won't make the problem go away. Ignoring it is what the Mods have done, and the problems have only gotten worse, or at best simply persisted, over time.



As for ignoring problematic posters - that I agree with. I have no time for self-serving and simple minded ingrates. So, those kinds I will simply ignore without confrontation. I'm not going to name any names, because that is against the forum rules. But, some people are beyond hope of redemption - no matter how many second chances they get.

Tumarek
01-13-2011, 10:03 AM
I agree that the rep system has its flaws, but i dont think its a problem. It doesnt stop people from posting quality posts, it actually encourages this a little.

Yes it has much more potential and could be used in a better way but i dont think the system is flawed in a way it makes the forum worse then it would be without it. This is why i see no reason killing it. Like i said before if you are not pleased with it you dont have to use it.

I also dont think introducing very clear rules will necessarily will be a good thing. People will have an easier way to find ways to abuse the system if they know exactly how it works.

So yes it would be nice if it gets a little dev love but i dont think it would be a bad thing if they just leave it the way it is.

P.S. Neg rep for my last post? I think someone is trying to prove his point :D

Gremmlynn
01-13-2011, 10:03 AM
I find it funny that someone would make a thread advocating that the rep system should be abolished because posters are not being auto-modded for excessive amounts of negative rep. I've always been of the opinion that the auto-mod clause was the systems only real flaw. If that isn't being enforced, I see no real reason to abolish the system. But then I've never seen any compelling reason, outside of identifying and silencing the square pegs, to have it to begin with.

So, put me down as "don't care one way or the other as long as auto-moderation isn't being enforced".

Memnir
01-13-2011, 10:17 AM
P.S. Neg rep for my last post? I think someone is trying to prove his point :DIf by that you are suggesting I Negged you, I didn't. Mind you, I don't think you are saying that - just wanted to be clear it wasn't me.

But, yeah - that does kinda drive my point home a bit. You disagreed with me - but so what? We can talk it over. And before Rep, we would have. But now, it's too easy to be petty and nasty with the Neg button over ideas you just dislike - posts that in no way fall under the guidelines of what should be neg repped.

joaofalcao
01-13-2011, 10:21 AM
I would rather fix it. Its a way to prevent flood and trash into the forum. Or should be.

Memnir
01-13-2011, 10:21 AM
I find it funny that someone would make a thread advocating that the rep system should be abolished because posters are not being auto-modded for excessive amounts of negative rep.I never once said that. If you think you can prove it - quote my post saying so. Dare ya.

I've asked for clarification of the rules and asked if Moderated Status still exists as a possibility - but not once said that we should do away with the system because Mod status seems to be an empty threat. I want to know what the rules are, now, not what they were. In the Mods' own post on Rep - they say that Moderated Status is the penalty for too much Neg Rep, and we have anecdotal evidence showing that this is no longer the case. If their own post is wrong, and the Mods don't care enough to edit or fix their own thread... then just turn the system off. They either don't care and have abandoned the system - or simply can't be bothered to enforce their own rules. Either way - that shows that the Rep system should just be killed. Because if the Mods can't fix or follow their own rules... then what's the point of keeping it?

Therigar
01-13-2011, 10:28 AM
I opposed the forum rep system when it was introduced, played along like a good little boy for a pretty long time, changed my rep to disable it when it was clear the rep system is just a bully system used to reward those who have a circle of friends able to + rep and to punish those who have contrary points of view through - rep.

The entire idea represented nothing more than a popularity contest to begin with and is nothing but that now. It should never have been introduced.

But, it isn't likely to change.

So, if you are like me and find it both ill conceived and poorly implimented then just disable your personal rep piece and let it go.

Tumarek
01-13-2011, 10:29 AM
If by that you are suggesting I Negged you, I didn't. Mind you, I don't think you are saying that - just wanted to be clear it wasn't me.

But, yeah - that does kinda drive my point home a bit. You disagreed with me - but so what? We can talk it over. And before Rep, we would have. But now, it's too easy to be petty and nasty with the Neg button over ideas you just dislike - posts that in no way fall under the guidelines of what should be neg repped.

Na wasnt implying it was you sorry if it sounded like that, as far as i know you have always been a well behaved and constructive member of the community. Also i think your neg rep hammer would have hurt much more ^_^

As for the neg rep: Out of place neg rep is seldom and doesnt have a huge impact. The most pos rep i got was when i actually helped somebody with a problem and the most neg rep i got, was for calling people names :)

I think it balances out in most cases and that is a good thing imho. I dont know if you have had a different experience, but most people with long green bars post at least in a halfway decent way.

I mean what exactly are you looking for in the rep system?

rjedi
01-13-2011, 10:31 AM
I as much I have tried to be informative in my post and make good, informative, clear post I only have 1000 rep. The rep system now, as is, is broken. When I get a neg rep because I was right on something or disagreed with an individual that is just not I think turbine intended it to be.

A thank you system would be ok
but disabling it altogether would probably be the best thing to do that hax had his rep wiped and he hasnt changed much




P.S. Neg rep for my last post? I think someone is trying to prove his point :D
from the ungodly amount of rep that memnir has I wouldnt be surprised if it took you into the red

Memnir
01-13-2011, 10:33 AM
So, if you are like me and find it both ill conceived and poorly implimented then just disable your personal rep piece and let it go.Disabling does not prevent you from giving or receiving Rep what so ever. Nor does it fix any of the standing issues with the system. At best, it's putting your head in the sand and hoping the bad thing goes away.

And why should we have to find a workaround for the Mods' poor choices and lack of consistent enforcement and deliberate obscurement of their own rules? Why should a system that is near-universally reviled be tolerated? If that were the case - we should still have have OfferWall.


The system is broken, and just ignoring it is the Mods' job. I say they should fix it... but since they are unwilling or unable, then they should do one better and just kill the thing.

eonfreon
01-13-2011, 10:36 AM
I never once said that. If you think you can prove it - quote my post saying so. Dare ya.

I've asked for clarification of the rules and asked if Moderated Status still exists as a possibility - but not once said that we should do away with the system because Mod status seems to be an empty threat. I want to know what the rules are, now, not what they were. In the Mods' own post on Rep - they say that Moderated Status is the penalty for too much Neg Rep, and we have anecdotal evidence showing that this is no longer the case. If their own post is wrong, and the Mods don't care enough to edit or fix their own thread... then just turn the system off. They either don't care and have abandoned the system - or simply can't be bothered to enforce their own rules. Either way - that shows that the Rep system should just be killed. Because if the Mods can't fix or follow their own rules... then what's the point of keeping it?

Actually, the only anecdotal evidence we have is that the review system is working and that someone had their Rep reset.

Memnir I'm not saying you want someone to be moderated but this quote of yours to H4x's comment is quite strange:

"Please take the gift of your reset to maybe reflect on why your Rep was so low. Not everyone was giving you Neg to be mean. A good degree of it was earned.


But, at least now we know that the Review system is working... even if it's not exactly in an honest way. And in my mind, the Mods have even more to answer for now."

In essence it sounds like you don't think the review system is honest because it reset someone's Rep, whom you disagree should have been reset.

And if I was a Mod and saw a post that said I had "even more to answer for now", by the OP no less, I wouldn't give that thread much validity either. I can see why it was locked.

Memnir
01-13-2011, 10:38 AM
I mean what exactly are you looking for in the rep system?I'd like the Mods to clarify their own rules - and I'd like them to be very clear on how the system should be used. I'd like them to detail the consequences for abusive use of the system, and for garnering too much Neg Rep. You can read my efforts to get them to do so, and their avoiding the topic by just closing the thread if you click on the Fix It link in the yellow part of my siggy.

I don't think that asking for them to be clear and fair with the rules for a system on their own forums is asking too much. But, since they refuse to engage in the conversation, it seems to be.


So, since they cannot or will not fix it - I say they should just kill it. It is fraught with problems and has been a divisive influence since Day One. It should just go away.

Memnir
01-13-2011, 10:44 AM
Actually, the only anecdotal evidence we have is that the review system is working and that someone had their Rep reset.No, that just shows exactly how broken the system is.

They didn't review his Rep at all... they just gave him a blank check and a do-over. If they reviewed it, they would have found that a good degree of his neg rep was earned, and under fair use of the guidelines the Mods established. Not all his Rep was from people who dislike his ideas.

But, they didn't Review - they took the easy way out and just set his Rep to zero. And that is not what the system is supposed to do at all. The Mods, with that one move, showed just how bad the Rep system really is - because if they cannot take the time to actually review Rep, then they should just do away with it. Because, as long as they refuse to change certain aspects of the system, there will be unfair Rep given out. And if they cannot honestly and actually review it - then the system should go away. If all they have time for is a reset instead of a real review - then it should go away.


So no, I don't think the Review system is honest. We have actual proof that it isn't working like the Mods said it would. And if that isn't working like the Mods said that it would... what about the Rep System is?

samthedagger
01-13-2011, 10:49 AM
Upon long and thoughtful consideration and reading through the arguments on both sides, I think I have to agree with getting rid of the rep system. In a way we already have a replacement, the thread rating system (I only seem to see it used on the builds subforum though). I think it would also be useful to have a way to rate individual posts, either with a "Thank You" system or a "I found this post helpful/I found this post unhelpful" system.

phillymiket
01-13-2011, 10:49 AM
Seems to me the current rep system tells me nothing about a person.

The only way it could be helpful is if it had categories.

For example: Knowledgeable/Helpful - Funny/Entertaining - Nice/Cool -

That way someone with...

Knowledgeable/Helpful...XXXXXXXX
Funny/Entertaining........X
Nice/Cool.......................XXXX

You would know they have a clue about the game but are not very diplomatic.

Someone with...

Knowledgeable/Helpful...X
Funny/Entertaining........XXXXXXXXXXXXX
Nice/Cool.......................XXXXXX

You would know they are good for a funny kitty picture but maybe don't take build advice.

As things stand the rep system is meaningless.
Those with red bars are invisible.
Green bars are unqualified.
You must know the person posting which is the same as no system except some people have a club to beat over peoples heads and others have another thing to complain about (getting neg'ed).

If there is no moderation after a certain amount of red squares then it filters nothing for the community.
When trolling people post under pseudo-accounts anyway.

I still haven't heard one argument for what the rep system really accomplishes.
I know what it's supposed to do.
It doesn't.

eonfreon
01-13-2011, 11:07 AM
No, that just shows exactly how broken the system is.

They didn't review his Rep at all... they just gave him a blank check and a do-over. If they reviewed it, they would have found that a good degree of his neg rep was earned, and under fair use of the guidelines the Mods established. Not all his Rep was from people who dislike his ideas.

But, they didn't Review - they took the easy way out and just set his Rep to zero. And that is not what the system is supposed to do at all. The Mods, with that one move, showed just how bad the Rep system really is - because if they cannot take the time to actually review Rep, then they should just do away with it. Because, as long as they refuse to change certain aspects of the system, there will be unfair Rep given out. And if they cannot honestly and actually review it - then the system should go away. If all they have time for is a reset instead of a real review - then it should go away.


You are right, the system did not work in an honest way. And, it is the Mods' job to be honest. If they cannot do that... then the system needs to go away.

Don't put words in my mouth. It is your opinion that the system did not work in an honest way. Not mine.
It is also your opinion that resetting it constituted a breach of their own rules.
I'm sorry, but quite a lot of it was undeserved.
Yes, some of it was, but only after he got so much undeserved that it became a game.

So he got a do-over.

That doesn't prove the system is broken. All it proves is that you think the system is broken.

Can it be improved? I'm sure it can.

However, badgering the Mods about it is unlikely to move them at all. You can't say that they have "even more to answer for" and expect an answer. Especially about something like disiplinary actions, which they are not allowed to talk about.

Rep or no Rep system, doesn't really matter. But you can't create a campaign like this and act like you're entitled for something that is completely out of your "jurisdiction".

I mean you can and maybe something will come of it, but you're not really standing up for anything concete.

We do know the rules, whatever you may claim about the ambuigity of it. Certainly it's not always applied correctly, in our opinions, but perhaps it does serve a funcion for the Mods, even if the participants mess it up.

Anyway, I'm just trying to figure out why this is such an issue.

Obviously people really care about Rep, despite all the claims to the contrary.

So good luck I guess. Won't make me sad one way or the other (although I guess a part of me does like that I have all this "good rep"- but I think my posts speak for themselves, people know when I'm trying to help them).

And sure I've gotten some "false negs". Mostly it was from being snarky, even if not insulting, so in a way it was "deserving' even if only in the most technical sense. But I think it was better as a way to say "calm down and think" then someone berating me in posts which would practically guarantee I would "have" to respond to and could potentially escalate further.

Other people of course looked at it differently and got bent out of shape. Constantly bemoaning their neg rep, even as you could see that they had a whole bunch of "Green" and were in no "danger" of any effect.

So if it's really your opinion that it needs to cbe clearer or go away, then I suppose you're on the right tack.
Personally, I doubt much will come of it. But I guess if you make it enough of a headache something may happen.
Hopefully it's something you want.

Memnir
01-13-2011, 11:10 AM
Don't put words in my mouth. It is your opinion that the system did not work in an honest way. Not mine.My apologies. I didn't see the end of the quote - and have already edited while you wrote this. :) Made a mistake and corrected it.


About h2x, we will have to agree to disagree. To me, a blanket reset as opposed to an honest review is not a review at all. I think his Neg Rep that was given properly should have stayed and the abusive Negs removed - because that would have been an actual review. It didn't happen that way, and I think that shows the system is broken. If you believe otherwise, okay.

As for my feeling entitled... I do. I use these forums, and I feel that a system that the Mods put in should work like they said that it would. If the rules change, then that should be documented. I feel that those rules should be clear, easy to understand, easy to find instead of seemingly hidden, and I feel that the enforcement of those rules should be even. I want clarity and fairness - which is not asking a lot. Right now, none of those can be said about Rep. And, if any of those points cannot be handled by the Mods for whatever reason - then the system needs to go away.

Am I ultimately tilting at windmills? Probably. But I am hoping, even if it's a slim hope, that the Mods will read this and think about how they've handled Rep to date and make some changes in the future. And, if they cannot figure out a way to deal with Rep in a fair and consistent manner, then think about killing it as I've suggested here.

And, much to my surprise - a lot of people here agree with me on this. Most people, it seems, want something to change with the Rep system. I made this post to vent my own frustrations with the system, and I am very happy to see I'm not alone in them. Maybe, just maybe, this thread with it's nearly unanimous agreement that the Rep system is flawed in many ways will help convince the Mods that it's time to do something about it. I certainty didn't start this to create a "campaign" - it just kinda turned into one.

Maybe it'll do some good. That's all I want in the end.

Gorbadoc
01-13-2011, 11:24 AM
As I stated : That is why the OP is saying to get rid of it

kinda what i said right? LOL get rid of = killed with fire ~ meaning will not be here anymore .... why? cause its gone / dead/ finished

Actually what memnir said is : I just say it should be killed with fire and be nothing but a bad memory. I no longer want to talk about how to fix it, I want to talk about attending it's funeral. See? Different topic entirely.

please keep up with the NEW topic at hand.....which is to get rid of it.
You said that Memnir said that the reputation system should be done away with because "it never worked in the first place, does nothing, and means nothing".

In fact, Memnir said that the reputation system should be done away with, because the "Mods can't be bothered to deal with the problems with it".

Do you understand the difference between 'X does nothing' and 'X is bad but will not be fixed'?


This exchange is actually a case in point for how the system does do something, and does something bad at that: I suspect this is an honest miscommunication. A sufficiently grumpy person, though, might decide that one of us was intentionally trying to incite the other and give neg rep for trolling. I suspect we already agree why this is bad; earnest discussion is punished, yet no one learns anything. The recipient doesn't know why he was neg repped, and there's no opportunity to discuss whether the community as a whole believes the occasion merited neg rep.

This exchange is also an example of why I suspect the moderators might not be weighing in. A reasonably intelligent person reading this thread can see that you've misconstrued Memnir's argument. If I were a mod, I would wonder what the point was-- there's no sense offering arguments (good OR bad) to people who will simply turn around and misconstrue them.

Gorbadoc
01-13-2011, 11:26 AM
I really don't want this thread to be about H4x, but I have a question:

How do we know that his reputation was actually reset? He *said* his reputation was in the negative thousands the other day. Is there any evidence apart from the word of a troll?

phillymiket
01-13-2011, 11:33 AM
I really don't want this thread to be about H4x, but I have a question:

How do we know that his reputation was actually reset? He *said* his reputation was in the negative thousands the other day. Is there any evidence apart from the word of a troll?

He has green squares now.

I gave him positive rep last week for a thread that actually made a good suggestion.

When I did it momentarily made his rep visible to me.

It was a full on double red rainbow all the way across the sky which I think is 2000+ neg rep. (over 1500 I know).

eonfreon
01-13-2011, 11:34 AM
You said that Memnir said that the reputation system should be done away with because "it never worked in the first place, does nothing, and means nothing".

In fact, Memnir said that the reputation system should be done away with, because the "Mods can't be bothered to deal with the problems with it".

Do you understand the difference between 'X does nothing' and 'X is bad but will not be fixed'?


This exchange is actually a case in point for how the system does do something, and does something bad at that: I suspect this is an honest miscommunication. A sufficiently grumpy person, though, might decide that one of us was intentionally trying to incite the other and give neg rep for trolling. I suspect we already agree why this is bad; earnest discussion is punished, yet no one learns anything. The recipient doesn't know why he was neg repped, and there's no opportunity to discuss whether the community as a whole believes the occasion merited neg rep.

This exchange is also an example of why I suspect the moderators might not be weighing in. A reasonably intelligent person reading this thread can see that you've misconstrued Memnir's argument. If I were a mod, I would wonder what the point was-- there's no sense offering arguments (good OR bad) to people who will simply turn around and misconstrue them.

Thing is it's hardly "punishment". A truly reasonable person whouldn't get bent out of shape about it. May look at the Neg Rep and try to get his point through another way. Or just ignore the Rep.

Even if the Rep system is working, it's understood that it should take a lot of Neg Rep to put someone in Moderated Status.

For the most part, it really is just a form of "disagreement". Because most Neg Rep barely registers to most folks with any decent amount of Green. The only ones who can be unfairly Moderated are new people who are disliked for whatever reason. That's what the review system is really for.

I've actually tried to get some removed that I thought I didn't deserve. That nothing came of it doesn't mean that the system is broken or that I did indeed deserve that Neg. Perhaps it was just within the guidelines. Perhaps I had just stepped over the line ever so slightly. Enough that a Mod didn't want to reverse it. Because anyone can see that I have enough Green that it has no real effect.

Especially, since when I do get it I don't freak out and pout over it.

Memnir
01-13-2011, 11:35 AM
How do we know that his reputation was actually reset? He *said* his reputation was in the negative thousands the other day. Is there any evidence apart from the word of a troll?Well, he has green boxes, for one...

He made a post saying it was reset in my Fit It thread, but it was removed. You can still read the thread and gauge when he said it from people's reactions, though.

PopeJual
01-13-2011, 11:42 AM
I really don't want this thread to be about H4x, but I have a question:

How do we know that his reputation was actually reset? He *said* his reputation was in the negative thousands the other day. Is there any evidence apart from the word of a troll?

Yes. When you give someone rep (either positive or negative), you can often see how many green or red boxes someone has even if their rep is disabled.

Lorien_the_First_One
01-13-2011, 11:45 AM
No, that just shows exactly how broken the system is.

They didn't review his Rep at all... they just gave him a blank check and a do-over. If they reviewed it, they would have found that a good degree of his neg rep was earned, and under fair use of the guidelines the Mods established. Not all his Rep was from people who dislike his ideas.

But, they didn't Review - they took the easy way out and just set his Rep to zero. And that is not what the system is supposed to do at all. The Mods, with that one move, showed just how bad the Rep system really is - because if they cannot take the time to actually review Rep, then they should just do away with it. Because, as long as they refuse to change certain aspects of the system, there will be unfair Rep given out. And if they cannot honestly and actually review it - then the system should go away. If all they have time for is a reset instead of a real review - then it should go away.


So no, I don't think the Review system is honest. We have actual proof that it isn't working like the Mods said it would. And if that isn't working like the Mods said that it would... what about the Rep System is?


It would also appear they only reset his rep after he started bragging about his neg rep in his siggy. I think they wanted to take that away from him because they looked foolish to allow him to have -3000+ rep and still be able to post. Basically, he was showing off how broken it was.

Gorbadoc
01-13-2011, 11:45 AM
I thought it was possible that people had grown tired of neg-repping him, and that maybe some people felt bad or didn't know better and +repped his recent torrent of thread topics. After all, we wouldn't see the progression while his rep was disabled.

Of course, if it was recently seen in the negative thousands, that makes my alternate explanation seem less likely.

Edit: And if people continued to see the huge red bar up until it went away all at once (I didn't realize +/- repping acted as a divining rod), that pretty much debunks my theory. Thanks!

Memnir
01-13-2011, 11:48 AM
No, he openly bragged about his reset.
I have other evidence as well - but I cannot go into that. Needless to say, his reset was genuine.

Missing_Minds
01-13-2011, 11:49 AM
They didn't review his Rep at all...
The only thing that can be for fact is that they don't talk about actions taken. This much was posted by the cube and by me quoting their own guidelines. As neither you, nor I were there, neither of us can know if they reviewed it or not.


But, they didn't Review - they took the easy way out and just set his Rep to zero. And that is not what the system is supposed to do at all.
The Rep system doesn't reset anything, (and it is this system you want removed), but a review process, that is external of the system, can and did.

Note also, I am not advocating I want to keep the rep system around either. I didn't like popularity contests in high school and I certainly still don't care for them. But you know what? I also don't care about the system either. It is there, big freaking deal. It has not changed my posting habits at all. When the game kills my character, or I don't get something I want, I don't throw such a fit I ask others to join me in a boycott... over a game.

Turning off the rep being displayed... meaningless if you ask me. Why not go the extra step and change your location to be "Remove the Rep System!" or the like as that would be appearing almost right over where rep shows up.

Memnir
01-13-2011, 11:56 AM
The Rep system doesn't reset anything, (and it is this system you want removed), but a review process, that is external of the system, can and did.The Review process is a part of the Rep system, as shown by Tolero's post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=184383) detailing the system's finer workings.
So, no... it's not separate at all. It's just another facet of the system. And this facet seems to have failed utterly.

But, true - I can only speculate that his rep didn't get a review. But, knowing that I only gave him Neg Rep when he violated community guidelines - and those Negs vanished along with those given to him for abusive reasons... well, it's a pretty solid speculation that the "review" never took place at all, and the easier and faster reset option was taken. Hence the utter failure.

Scraap
01-13-2011, 11:59 AM
Back on topic:

Were it even working as designed, censuring the person, not the post, with the negative consequence of having them placed into moderated status, simply puts things into a cult-of-personality mode, rather than encouraging useful information flow per statement.

With no actual results given for having a positive rep bar save for the ability to beat other posters with it (unless there's some hidden board someplace where all the cool kids with large greeni hang out for being considered particularly helpful), the human impulse to get a reaction from folks trends towards the lowest end of the spectrum inevitably.

All stick, no carrot, and focused on the poster, not the post, and *of course* the system will see the occasional flare-up like we've had in the last few days.

There are alternatives, there are fixes. Most however do entail first clearing the way by removing the non-functional, or counterproductive systems.

Missing_Minds
01-13-2011, 12:04 PM
it's a pretty solid speculation that the "review" never took place at all, and the easier and faster reset option was taken.

Think about it. several thousand neg points in SUM, which means we really don't know how much total pos and neg he got. Before the reset we have read where posters did agree with him and gave him positive. Heck some posted they gave him pos just because they felt sorry for him. They removed those also, not just the negative.

Review it all, it takes time. And the way you keep going after him/this, I would not be surprised if they just have it all saved off and they are going through it. They find abusers, they are going to get infractions. As for Hax himself, he has no probation now probably. Which means one screw up and he's gone.

How many times has the cube locked/closed a thread, and then a few days later the infractions are handed out? I speak from experience on that.

Chai
01-13-2011, 12:09 PM
No, that just shows exactly how broken the system is.

They didn't review his Rep at all... they just gave him a blank check and a do-over. If they reviewed it, they would have found that a good degree of his neg rep was earned, and under fair use of the guidelines the Mods established. Not all his Rep was from people who dislike his ideas.

But, they didn't Review - they took the easy way out and just set his Rep to zero. And that is not what the system is supposed to do at all. The Mods, with that one move, showed just how bad the Rep system really is - because if they cannot take the time to actually review Rep, then they should just do away with it. Because, as long as they refuse to change certain aspects of the system, there will be unfair Rep given out. And if they cannot honestly and actually review it - then the system should go away. If all they have time for is a reset instead of a real review - then it should go away.


So no, I don't think the Review system is honest. We have actual proof that it isn't working like the Mods said it would. And if that isn't working like the Mods said that it would... what about the Rep System is?

No.

I bet they did review and found a good degree of his rep was given by people who troll his threads and disagree with him. The fact that the result you believe should have occurred didnt happen doesnt mean they didnt review it.

Like I stated before, if people had neg repped the posts he actually violates rules on and only those, maybe something would be done. Instead, people disagreed with what he said, found one offending comment, see that he posts repeatedly, then searched up all his other posts and gave neg rep on those too - after spreading enough rep around to their friends to allow them to do so of course. The end result of this is the mods now have to wade through hundreds of posts that didnt violate any rules just to find the ones that did. Had people used the system like they should have, there would be a few hundred neg rep there on a smaller number of posts, instead of thousands of rep on hundreds of posts, many of which were not over the line. All the attention would be on what it SHOULD be on. This is why report works better than rep. It is a tool used to audit QUALITY of posting, and not trying to banter that the quality of someones posts is equal to the QUANTITY of their rep.

I dont think its fair for people who disagree and cant tolerate disagreement to be able to troll someones rep into the void to put them into automod, just like you dont think its fair that nothing gets done when people are in the neg by thousands of points. If you are calling for them to have to enforce rules against people who violate posting guidelines, then I am calling for them to enforce rules on those who abuse the rep allocation guidelines. If h4x deserves to be nailed for his violations, then everyone who neg repped posts that were not in the wrong whatsoever simply to up the QUANTITY of neg rep deserve the same. If this was opened up for audit, I think we would see that more people abuse the rep allocation guidelines than abuse the posting guidelines, because rep allocation is not identified to the public community.

Report is simply the better option. People will think twice before reporting, and the issue with people who cant tolerate disagreement will likely go away. If something isnt reportable, its not worth bantering back and forth with rep points. QUALITY based rule enforcement succeeds where QUANTITY based enforcement fails.

eonfreon
01-13-2011, 12:09 PM
The Review process is a part of the Rep system, as shown by Tolero's post (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=184383) detailing the system's finer workings.
So, no... it's not separate at all. It's just another facet of the system.

But, true - I can only speculate that his rep didn't get a review. But, knowing that I only gave him Neg Rep when he violated community guidelines - and those Negs vanished along with those given to him for abusive reasons... well, it's a pretty solid speculation that the "review" never took place at all, and the easier and faster reset option was taken.

Well you're right we will have to agree to disagree then.

Sure I saw him get a bit abusive, but only ever he felt justifiably ganged up on.

Basically it became a spiral, in such that even the "deserved" became "undeserved" because of the circumstances. And whether he was showing off about his Red Bars or not he certainly has "changed" his forum persona quite a bit since he started posting.

You may consider it solid speculation. I simply see it as speculation. And I do not agree that he deserved Moderation, whether he got it or not.

From what I saw it was quite a textbook case of folks ganging up on a person. The egging on was on all sides.

I don't much like his persona, but I'm wise enough to state my opinion and move on.

I don't think a wipe was unwarranted at all. People do indeed deserve second chances. The Rep system was never meant to be set in stone. It was simply an alternative to Reporting something, because that's what you really should do if something's truly offensive or out of line. So therefore the Rep system is a much lower form. It's there to keep things from getting out of hand, basically. Or at least to attempt to.

And you're really surprised you have so much support? Really? I'm sorry but that almost sounds political poetic waxing. You'd have to be blind to not realize that most folks don't like the Neg part of the system.

So for that one part I'll say /signed.
Get rid of Neg Rep. Keep only Pos Rep and keep the Report button for anything truly outrageously offensive.
Personally, I would prefer to leave it as is. I actually prefer to get anon neg rep then have someone "call me out" which then I feel "obligated" to respond to, etc.

But obviously many people can't handle Neg Rep for the most part. Or at the least can't help but bemoan when they get it, even when they have a huge amount of Green.

Memnir
01-13-2011, 12:12 PM
Review it all, it takes time.Okay - take the time, then adjust the Rep. I would think that would be SOP. But don't blank the current Rep total before an adjustment. That's just silly.

I won't continue with that line of thought however. :) Could lead me to say things that are unwise and problem-inducing.

D-molisher
01-13-2011, 12:12 PM
/signed.
SInce they dont show public who gave you neg rep, it will be misused alot / and is.
Just kill it.

Missing_Minds
01-13-2011, 12:16 PM
Get rid of Neg Rep. Keep only Pos Rep and keep the Report button for anything truly outrageously offensive.
Personally, I would prefer to leave it as is. I actually prefer to get anon neg rep then have someone "call me out" which then I feel "obligated" to respond to, etc.


Heck... they should just make it a "like it" / "report it" system. Where "like it" is the positive rep we have now, and "report it" gives both neg rep and makes you fill in the box why you are reporting it.

Then just remove needing pos rep to give neg rep.

Also, if they do that, wipe the rep system slate clean. Everyone starts over at zero.

Chai
01-13-2011, 12:17 PM
This:


Back on topic:

Were it even working as designed, censuring the person, not the post, with the negative consequence of having them placed into moderated status, simply puts things into a cult-of-personality mode, rather than encouraging useful information flow per statement.

With no actual results given for having a positive rep bar save for the ability to beat other posters with it (unless there's some hidden board someplace where all the cool kids with large greeni hang out for being considered particularly helpful), the human impulse to get a reaction from folks trends towards the lowest end of the spectrum inevitably.

All stick, no carrot, and focused on the poster, not the post, and *of course* the system will see the occasional flare-up like we've had in the last few days.

There are alternatives, there are fixes. Most however do entail first clearing the way by removing the non-functional, or counterproductive systems.

Hendrik
01-13-2011, 12:17 PM
No.

I bet they did review and found a good degree of his rep was given by people who troll his threads and disagree with him. The fact that the result you believe should have occurred didnt happen doesnt mean they didnt review it.



Except you must give out X amount of rep before you can rep the same person.

And the options given for rep are Agree/Disagree with a post....

Given the tools at hand, when given the choice to Agree/Disagree that people should be banned if they have X amount of cash, I happen to disagree and voted as such.

But guess that was just being 'mean cause I don't like PvP' and nothing to do with the fact I disagree with a posted topic.

;)

Memnir
01-13-2011, 12:20 PM
I do not agree that he deserved Moderation, whether he got it or not.I never once said he should be Moderated either. I only ever asked if Moderation was still a possibility, because it seems like if it was - he would have been. But, I never said I wanted to see him in trouble. It was part of my efforts to get the Mods to give us a clear understanding of what the rules of the system actually are. It's still a part of their official ruleset, and it seems like that ruleset is either outdated or incorrect. I'd like to know just because I want to know the rules... not becuase I want to see any one person fall afoul of them.
And you're really surprised you have so much support? Really? I'm sorry but that almost sounds political poetic waxing. You'd have to be blind to not realize that most folks don't like the Neg part of the system.Yes, actually. And I'm sorry if you think I'm being disingenuous, but I'm really not. In the past, I've been one of the more open supporters of the Rep system. Until recent events, I was pretty okay with the whole thing... and frankly found the support I have received to be a welcome surprise.