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View Full Version : Remvoe 32pt. and Vet status from store



sephiroth1084
01-06-2011, 11:18 PM
With Greater Reincarnations available, the possibility of rerolling and such, I think there are enough options for dealing with adjusting to these features upon unlocking them, whereas I feel that the presence of these fosters lazier, less skilled players.

In the case of Vet status, I'm sure that there are plenty of people who skip the early levels, where a fair amount of learning DDO is acquired in dungeons that are designed to teach things like finding quests and some other basic skills.

In the case of 32pt. builds, while, yes, I'd rather be running around with more powerful party mates, I feel that people gain a much greater understanding of DDO and of their own skills and character by working to gain the 1750 favor (which is rather easy at this point with all the new quests we've received), which gets lost when people level to 20 in a rather short period of time, skipping most quests along the way. Sure, grinding out whatever remaining favor you need once you hit cap is pretty dull, but it is part of the learning process that a lot of people seem to be skipping.

Maybe these aren't big ticket items, and the noobs are noobs for other reasons, but I feel like these have to be contributing.

I'd almost like to see True Hearts removed from the store as well, for similar reasons, but having to grind 20 epic dungeons, particularly since many of the shorter ones drop only fragments, is a different sort of pain (for one, many players may want to TR, yet could be unable to complete epics with any sort of regularity).

TeyaBrosna
01-06-2011, 11:28 PM
I shudder to think of the difference in DDO expertise between yourself and me. LOL I was one of the happy suckers who purchased both Vet status and 32-point builds and am still terribly happy to have done so. I'm not sure that that's the sort of thing I'd remove from the store, if I were the one running the store... Surely something that provides such instant gratification *is* a big ticket item and let's face it, gamers are a pretty hardcore instant gratification crowd. Yes, we do grind ridiculously long periods of time for an item we are determined to make (even if we can sometimes buy it), but we also spend stupid amounts of money on our gaming systems and connections so that we don't lag while grinding. (Ew, that didn't sound right.)

I'm definitely not criticizing the point you raise here - we noobs are nooby for excellent reasons, and I imagine that you more experienced players can tell who we are immediately if we happen to end up in the same party together. I'm just saying that from a financial standpoint, those items are probably not leaving the store anytime soon.

D-molisher
01-06-2011, 11:33 PM
...
I'd almost like to see True Hearts removed from the store as well, for similar reasons, but having to grind 20 epic dungeons, particularly since many of the shorter ones drop only fragments, is a different sort of pain (for one, many players may want to TR, yet could be unable to complete epics with any sort of regularity).

I hate epics & find them even more boring than most raids. Without option to pay to tr, i would leave game.
That way it would loose a paying customer & i know i wouldnt be the only one.
DDO got way to much grind as is, but it got some pretty cool quests & combat system

I like the idea of earning the 32 point and Vet status. - And did so myself, its part off learning curve in DDO.
Just dont like having nothing to do when my chars cap > because i find most ddo raids & epics utterly boring & way too repetetive.

FoxCourier
01-06-2011, 11:41 PM
I don't necessarily see where their removal will automatically fix the perceived problems you've outlined. Those lazy players will still be just as lazy, they'll just have more to complain about. They may even quit the game, and stop helping development through purchases of various packs thereby. But, worse, a section of them may just learn to pike more places and feel it's necessary to do so out of lack of any other option. They're still lazy, terrible players - it's not going to change anything at all, except maybe in community size and attitude.

It's also not exactly easy to grind out 1750 favor as a F2P player - not without spending a lot of time grinding favor on various servers (which makes you skilled only in grinding favor and doing so quickly, or piking) in order to unlock enough packs to be able to do so, at any rate. And then you'd still have to grind out the favor all the way up the chain in order to get... a whopping 4 build points, which while nice, isn't exactly all that game breaking or even necessary to be successful (though I realize every bit helps).

I don't see any positives for this. I see a number of negatives, however. If I had to analyze the situation, I'd have to say this isn't exactly the way to effect the desired change at all. You can't exactly force people to learn things that they're disinclined to learn in the first place, and the best thing that you can really do is help those that are actually willing to learn (though at times it feels like a chore - I facedesk every time I have to go through Korthos Island for whatever reason, and generally have a migraine that continues well through the Harbor and into the Marketplace).

cdemeritt
01-06-2011, 11:47 PM
I like the idea of earning the 32 point and Vet status.


While I agree in principal, Especially the Vet Status, as it's easy enough to earn, and I still have several old 28 pt builds that are 100 times better than some current 32 pts... I can't make people understand that the difference between 28 pt and 32 pt builds are minor in most cases....

I remember how much people whined about wanting to buy these, and turbine is making a mint from them...or at least more than they would by removing them, So I expect they are here to stay.

Dark-Gulrak
01-06-2011, 11:49 PM
I for one never bought 32 point builds or vet status or FvS, but rather unlocked them with via

favor, eventually passing 2500 favor for FvS, and I must say that it was a feeling of a

mini achievement to have done so without buying it in the store back in my newbie days :D

.... ok I lied I'm still abit newbie :p

sephiroth1084
01-07-2011, 12:06 AM
I'm not bashing new players in general, or even suggesting that somehow removing these from the store will sort out all the really poor players, but I feel like their availability in this fashion removes some fairly major steps toward becoming better at the game.

They're goals for players to work toward that are somewhat apparent without having to do much research (unlike equipment), come with real benefits and require some degree of self-propulsion (particularly in the case of 1750 favor). One of my biggest pet peeves is the "can you share" crowd, who seem utterly incapable of finding a quest on their own, and I can't help but feel that part of that is from being able to level and achieve whatever goals they're after without having to do anything but click 'Join' on an LFM, rather than occasionally having to go start up their own group, or going to solo, because they need some favor.

I could be wrong on all of this, and I certainly won't ***** about this suggestion being ignored, but it just seems to me that the game would improve, on the whole, for everyone if this were to transpire. Sure, some of the immediate gratification crowd would have this particular gratification offset, but I think their experience would be the better for it.

FoxCourier
01-07-2011, 12:16 AM
One of my biggest pet peeves is the "can you share" crowd, who seem utterly incapable of finding a quest on their own,

I say again - these people won't change no matter what we do. The best thing you can do is boot them and send them a tell explaining why. If they want to join the group, they can figure out where it is and how to get to the door like everyone else did. When they can, provided you haven't already started or aren't too far in and still have room, they can (maybe) join then.

I think you could be over-valuing Veteran Status and 32-point builds. For some people, they're a convenience just to get a bit more wiggle room in their build (without having to slog through the Sixth Layer of Hell itself with a Frost Devil on their back, two rabid halflings on their ankles, a backpack full of neutronium, and no pants*) and the ability to skip a portion of the game (Korthos Island and possibly the Harbor depending on how crazy you feel like being) that may have gotten tedious for them.

On that last one, I've run Korthos so many times on so many characters on every server imaginable, that Dax Boon is starting to charge me rent, and I'm seriously considering helping Jeets remove pints from his wazoo ("Don't know how many times I've got to tell you this, mate, but that's not a proper storage device for pints!") in order to pay the man so I can get on with my life.

I do agree that people should have to learn things, but I don't think any of these two particular items do anything to prevent or hinder them from learning (except maybe Veteran Status, but that also doesn't FORBID them from doing Korthos/Harbor so much as gives them less incentive to do so) the game at all. It's their own fault.

*Blown far, far out of proportion for humor value only. It's not that bad.

justagame
01-07-2011, 12:30 AM
I agree that the original grind to 1750 was very educational.

However, I disagree about the TR point. I find epics to be mind-numbingly dull, and poorly designed. Furthermore, they don't teach you much about the nature of the rest of the game.

Veileira
01-07-2011, 12:37 AM
In the case of Vet status, I'm sure that there are plenty of people who skip the early levels, where a fair amount of learning DDO is acquired in dungeons that are designed to teach things like finding quests and some other basic skills.

Not signed.

In the case of Vet status, you have to get to 4 once in order to buy it in the first place. Who really wants to run Korthos again anyway?

learst
01-07-2011, 01:09 AM
I bought the 32-point status. I don't think grinding to 1750 favour is easy. My first toon was on Argo, and I was already hitting lvl 19 and my favour was only around 1600. I don't grind all quests on elite and I didn't go back for quests below level.

Then I decided to roll up a toon on Khyber, as I heard there are more Aussie players there. And I didn't feel like starting a fresh toon and then grind back all the way up 1750 favour. So when there was a sale on 32-points, I bought it. Now I can roll toons on any server with 32-points.

*casts Resist Fire*.

Rakian_Knight
01-07-2011, 01:54 AM
I'm one of those players that won't buy the vet. status or 32 point build but earned both of them and I have to say I'm proud to put in my signature "I earned my 32 point build."

Does it really matter that much?....Not really
Is the effect of earning it really that big of a deal for everyone else?.....Not really
Am I a better player by earning it?....Maybe

However, I can't say that removing them from the store would be a good idea but, if you really think it is going to change everything that much, change the requirement to buy it from level 4 to Earning Vet status on a server and same for 32 point build. Most people after earning it once don't want to grind it out on every server they have characters on.

Just my thoughts

~Rakian_Knight

dougnugget
01-07-2011, 02:33 AM
I purchased 32pt and Vet status from the store, both at 50% discount and am very happy with my decision.

As far as 32 pt status goes, I decided (having rolled up a 28pt cleric and playing a bit) that I wanted to roll other characters, and did not want to have to purchase Greater Hearts of Wood for them, or wait until my first TR, to get the extra character points.

The Vet status was more of an impulse buy, because I was pretty sick of grinding Korthos and harbor quests and because of my altitis. I like that Vet status is optional -so if I ever want to join a static group and quest from level 1, I can still do that.

I solo a lot, which also has an impact - I think I would be happier running more low level content if I was doing it in a group, but I can't often commit to a set play time, so that becomes difficult.

I somewhat resent some of the blanket comments in this thread that everyone who does make these purchases is somehow lazy or a poor player - it's a blatant group attack and people should know better than to do that. It's arguable that VIP status (and the ability to run low level quests on Elite without having to run Normal or Hard) is even more of a short cut than starting at level 4 - but this doesn't make VIP players "lazy", even if they take advantage of this feature. I think there is a difference between being lazy and being grind adverse - although in my case maybe I'm lazy and grind adverse.

I will admit that being able to run some classes from level 4 direct - for example, sorcerers - may be a bit of a easy button - especially as Robes of Invulnerability become available at level 4. If so, fair cop - but I'm still going to equip that robe - because I have learned that damage mitigation is important.

I feel that purchasing 32pt and Vet status has actually helped my development in some ways, as I am more quickly reaching content which is going to challenge me a bit more (my main is Lvl 13 now). I read a lot on these forums that Korthos/Harbor quests are so easy that they do not expose bad build choices and strategies, and I think there is some merit to that view.

Also, I'm sure that these options generate a lot of revenue for Turbine and help to keep the game viable.

So, although I sympathise with the OP's viewpoint, not signed.

Regards,

Doug

Thsil
01-07-2011, 03:58 AM
I am going to reply to this ...

OP you seem a self absorbed ,, yada, since the new have to suffer through what I did to reach what I had to go through, etc. Why do you think this game didn't explode some 2-3yrs ago? Most kids theses days expect handheld cookie cutter ,. easy play, Ddo, isn't that.. on builds.
Noob, yea,/./. hear ya, I've played online since 96 on a MUD was my first(lol.. what was EQ at that time), Legends of Terris.


I can understand your meaning imo, but god help this game. This game died when it was first released because of such. (Yes I was a preorder & recently returned).

The unforgiving ability of correcting a ill build mistake was a dead toon. Point blank. This game is not forgiving for a player that is new to correct there mistakes in the mid lvls(specially those that have no clue) ,... yes, some do research but 70% +/- have no clue what the hell the forums are. I returned around 2 months ago.. & I still ask for Build aid. And yes I grew up with DnD as a Kid some 18yrs ago ( crashing at friends house at 14-17yrs old and play dnd all night long or the marvel comic or the mech warr games at that time)



Sadly thought, your gauge of a nublet is biased


I did buy the 32 & a few class options, but i am a research troll.. you can check my post history for such if wished,,


/salute,
my 2cps worth


edit for no reason: cause I fill like it if you wish to attack my catcher

Legends of Terris, MUD old school : officer atleast 2 years in a very heavy rp Mud game. 4 years played, before graphic games came around. EQ killed it.
Everquest. Officer 3 yrs, Guild leader for 1yr, Winds of Destiny
City of Heroes.. fun for the 1.5 yrs played. Loved my broad/regen for the time it lasted.
Guildwars. ,, /shrug, guess i lasted around a yr
Wow, 4 years of ok, main tank/dps , officer.

\/shrug

MrLarone
01-07-2011, 05:39 AM
and what happens when you move server and have to grind it all out again?

flynnjsw
01-07-2011, 05:45 AM
I will admit that I bought 32 points and Vet Status. However, when I originally bought it, it was just a few RL friends that were in a static group together, so we really weren't hurting anyone with our noobness. I bought them before the advent of the LR and GR. I have since earned vet status on my main, and it actually still felt like an accomplishment reaching that level.

Dendrix
01-07-2011, 06:26 AM
No.

slimkj
01-07-2011, 06:35 AM
Disagree. I know the situation is unlikely to be repeated but I started over here on the US servers and, having already played since launch, it was a big relief to be able to unlock the favour based rewards immediately rather than grind out the favour again. It should be an option.

Daggaz
01-07-2011, 06:38 AM
disagree. I unlocked 32 pt on my first server, but shudder to think of having to do it on every new server i may play on. favor grinding is as boring as any other grind. if folks want to pay for access, let them. seeing as how that is DDOs business model in its entirety, I seriously doubt you are going to get much Dev response on this suggestion..

KraahgDaAxe
01-07-2011, 06:49 AM
I'd almost like to see True Hearts removed from the store as well, for similar reasons, but having to grind 20 epic dungeons, particularly since many of the shorter ones drop only fragments, is a different sort of pain (for one, many players may want to TR, yet could be unable to complete epics with any sort of regularity).

Correct me if Im wrong, but epic diff quests are only available if you have adventure packs. There may be some epic quests that are f2p, but I don't know them (15th lvl highest toon). If epics are only available in adventure packs, you are limiting true f2p players from ever getting TR if you remove it from the store. From what I understand you can reach 20th solely as f2p, but again, I don't know.

Kraahg

Dartwick
01-07-2011, 06:53 AM
The OP is clueless.

Adding vet to the store is the reason I came back to DDO.

Sure it might seems easy to level up once you have done it a time or 2 but the first time you level up it really sucks to have to build a gimp just so youll be allowed to build a real character.


If you want to feel that your leveling a 28 point toon is a badge of honor or something - good for you.
Turbine should make decision based on what gets players to play, not on validating your journey through the game..

Ungood
01-07-2011, 07:00 AM
/Not Signed.

I like my 32 point builds and I like my vet status, When I move to a different server!

Unlocking only makes those things open to that server, so I gotta do it again, if I wanna try a different server? No Thank you!

And the last thing any game needs is another person spouting elitist propaganda.

TheHolyDarkness
01-07-2011, 02:31 PM
Take a look at this. (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/82128/page/2)

So let me get this straight. You are suggesting that Turbine REMOVE its number 1 and number 10 cash cows.

For what? Again? Why? That's a lot of money that goes into development, and you want it removed because...of noobs? And I'm totally a noob for having bought 32 build points myself, despite any evidence to the contrary I could demonstrate by this point. Is that what you're calling me and 90% of the premium player base? Sounds like it.

You're right. I agree. And I'm sure Turbine agrees. Lets just remove the cash cow. Lets just remove the noobs and their money.

Yeah lets make this happen. What could go wrong?

/signed

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

Cyr
01-07-2011, 03:16 PM
Correct me if Im wrong, but epic diff quests are only available if you have adventure packs. There may be some epic quests that are f2p, but I don't know them (15th lvl highest toon). If epics are only available in adventure packs, you are limiting true f2p players from ever getting TR if you remove it from the store. From what I understand you can reach 20th solely as f2p, but again, I don't know.

Kraahg

You are correct that the only epic quests are available only in adventure packs form the store. You are however incorrect in your statement about true f2p players being then barred from TR'ing.

In fact, you would do exactly the same sort of thing you do now as a true f2p player to TR. You would grind out some favor on alts to buy something from the store...except in this case you would buy one of the adventure packs and then grind out some epic tokens to buy the true heart in game.

Oh and a big /not signed for the OP. Vet status and 32 point builds didn't create any noobs. Heck, the less time new players spend in korthos and favor runs of lower level quests the better. That way they might actually spend a little more time with more knowledgable players doing less easy content.

JollySwagMan
01-07-2011, 03:20 PM
/not signed

Also, I think that new/inexperienced players being rushed through content is a much more significant factor in the experience/skills gap than the store-bought 32 point builds or vet status.

Granted, gathering the favour can be a learning process, but DDO allows favour to be gained from a quest regardless of whether there's no XP. A player can reach the favour by piking, or by running quests so over-level as to remove any challenge.

In other words, I believe that when the first thing someone says upon joining your lfm is 'share' (not even a 'plz') it is more dependent upon what types of groups they have been running with and their individual habits, rather than whether they bought 32 point or vet status (or TR for that matter).

Memnir
01-07-2011, 04:14 PM
I bought both 32 pointers and Vet status so I could have them on all servers, and not just one.

Besides, there is no chance Turbine will take these off the Store. None. I don't think they'd kill two of their Golden Geese - but rather trying to find additional ways to get more eggs out of it every day.

Thrudh
01-07-2011, 04:28 PM
With Greater Reincarnations available, the possibility of rerolling and such, I think there are enough options for dealing with adjusting to these features upon unlocking them, whereas I feel that the presence of these fosters lazier, less skilled players.

In the case of Vet status, I'm sure that there are plenty of people who skip the early levels, where a fair amount of learning DDO is acquired in dungeons that are designed to teach things like finding quests and some other basic skills.

In the case of 32pt. builds, while, yes, I'd rather be running around with more powerful party mates, I feel that people gain a much greater understanding of DDO and of their own skills and character by working to gain the 1750 favor (which is rather easy at this point with all the new quests we've received), which gets lost when people level to 20 in a rather short period of time, skipping most quests along the way. Sure, grinding out whatever remaining favor you need once you hit cap is pretty dull, but it is part of the learning process that a lot of people seem to be skipping.

Maybe these aren't big ticket items, and the noobs are noobs for other reasons, but I feel like these have to be contributing.

I'd almost like to see True Hearts removed from the store as well, for similar reasons, but having to grind 20 epic dungeons, particularly since many of the shorter ones drop only fragments, is a different sort of pain (for one, many players may want to TR, yet could be unable to complete epics with any sort of regularity).

Removing them won't fix any of the problems, and will just deprive Turbine of cash...

KraahgDaAxe
01-07-2011, 04:30 PM
You are correct that the only epic quests are available only in adventure packs form the store. You are however incorrect in your statement about true f2p players being then barred from TR'ing.

In fact, you would do exactly the same sort of thing you do now as a true f2p player to TR. You would grind out some favor on alts to buy something from the store...except in this case you would buy one of the adventure packs and then grind out some epic tokens to buy the true heart in game.

I had thought about this when I posted, but a true f2p player only has two characters (per server I know) so grinding TP isn't exactly easy. Not impossible, true, but fairly hard.

The cheapest pack that gives epic is Devil's Assault at 350, but only has two "quests". Waiting til 450 opens up Carnival, Sentinels, and Fens, which is more quests (and therefore more favor).

But let's stick to 350. An experienced player can get to 350 TP fairly quickly using alts, but an experienced player is less likely to be true f2p and not premium, which has higher character slots.

I know when I first started "modern" DDO (during a 10 day free trial) it took me along time to learn the game enough to earn 400 favor to unlock drow. That's only 100 TP.

Again, it's not impossible, but highly unlikely that a true f2p will have the knowledge of the game to be able to do this.

Kraahg

chrisgina39
01-07-2011, 07:00 PM
so bluntly
you dont want to spend money and grind stuff instead and you want everyone to have to grind stuff too because of youre not willingness to spend money?

bad idea

QuantumFX
01-07-2011, 07:40 PM
Personally, I think the people who purchase Vet Status and 32 point builds are the proverbial “Fool” who gets separated from their money. They would have been much better off buying the actual fun parts of the game (Adventure Packs) and working from there.

However, they keep my monthly subscription rate down. So keep on buying useless stuff guys!

As for True Hearts of Wood… I have better things to spend my epic tokens on TYVM. And I need some way to spend my monthly allotment of Turbine Points.

KillEveryone
01-07-2011, 08:27 PM
I don't mind these being in the store.

I happily purchased 32pt and Vet status and don't regret it. I played around with several different characters before I even got the 32 pt build...I was actually capped on one of them for some time.

Vet status also allowed me to get a head start on getting some of my re-rolls going. While it isn't needed, it is convenient since I didn't have to do Korthos or some of the Harbor if I didn't feel like doing those quests and could get into something that doesn't involve so much sewer and kobold. I thought you needed to have at least one character at lvl 4 before you could purchase that, which I had several past there anyway.

Even if people had to earn these through favor, I don't think it would really help them improve their game. Some people just can't learn from their mistakes. Others...like me...have to do the same stupid thing over a few times because we just forget and go duh, but we eventually learn.

Since you can get to cap on your first life without having to do anything past normal, people don't have to pick up their game skill. They can go into Epics on their first life without ever having done a quest on elite. Elite is more difficult than normal, definitely not epic, but since they never experienced elite difficulty, they have no clue what Epic is like.

TheBroken_JPK
01-07-2011, 08:42 PM
Wait, wait. I'm lazy because I didn't spend X hours playing a game. You do realize this is a game, right? All I do is sit on my bum.

Here's an idea. How about we make the lazy bums slaughter the cow and grind the meat themselves? I'm tired of people being so lazy going to the grocery store.

Your idea that people are lazy, because they don't feel like grinding out boring missions is narrow-minded at best. I fail to see the connection between bad player, and someone who didn't feel doing a bunch boring quest that would burn them out.

Bad players come from a lack of any direction during the character building stage, a misconception from p&p players who think the MMO is anything like the real D&D, and some MMO players are just not that bright.