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View Full Version : Make the Tumble skill do something



waterboytkd
01-04-2011, 12:06 AM
Everyone takes a rank in Tumble so that they can roll through water, but no one goes beyond that except for people that like to watch their toons do backflips off waterfalls and into pits.

It'd be nice if the Tumble skill could receive an actual use. In PnP, it's awesome because it lets you move around with incurring attacks of opportunity. Doesn't really translate to this game. But, it didn't translate to Neverwinter Nights, either, so they gave Tumble another benefit: every 5 ranks in it gave you a +1 dodge bonus to AC.

They could do the same in this game. So at 5 ranks, you get a +1; 10 ranks, you get a +2 dodge bonus; 15 ranks gets you a +3 dodge bonus; and finally, at 20 ranks, you get a +4 dodge bonus to AC. Of course, these bonuses wouldn't stack with other dodge bonuses of the same numeric value, and of course, only the highest bonus is applied.

What does this do? Well, it gives a bit more lenience on how to gear up your toons. Not everyone is going to need to wear Icy Raiments anymore. Or, if they get Icy's, maybe they won't need to farm a Chattering ring. It would give Tumble something to do and make gearing up your toon for AC less grindy.

Does this idea have merit, or is it just insane?

Geodude07
01-04-2011, 12:14 AM
I actually like this idea...tumble I think also has to do with damage from falls (but I may be wrong about that) but I mean that is a mute point as most people get feather fall or if they are a monk just have slow fall.

Tumble could be useful to get out of effects, but it no longer works that way. So yeah tumble is largely an aesthetic thing. I think this idea would at least give it some use and I dont think it would be way too OP or anything.

Gorbadoc
01-04-2011, 12:25 AM
But, it didn't translate to Neverwinter Nights, either, so they gave Tumble another benefit: every 5 ranks in it gave you a +1 dodge bonus to AC.

They could do the same in this game...

What does this do? Well, it gives a bit more lenience on how to gear up your toons. Not everyone is going to need to wear Icy Raiments anymore. Or, if they get Icy's, maybe they won't need to farm a Chattering ring. It would give Tumble something to do and make gearing up your toon for AC less grindy.

Does this idea have merit, or is it just insane?

No, it has merit, but I think you misunderstand how things like armor class and save bonuses work.

Pretend you're a quest designer. You're designing the new hardest quest in the game. Maybe the last one wasn't hard enough, because people kept getting better gear, making it less and less hard.

So you want this new quest to be challenging for the players who farm for gear all the time. You need to set your monsters' attack bonuses so they can hit the best AC builds out there maybe 50% of the time. After all, if there's a build that gets hit only 5% of the time, that build will find the quest too easy!

When you let players increase their AC by 5, you haven't just made them five points better; you've raised the bar by five points. When you design that new quest, or when you go back to recalibrate old quests, it's going to be with the knowledge that the high-end armor classes are now five points better.

To have a useful armor class right now, you need a certain list of gear and a certain list of build properties. Create this new "opportunity" for AC, and you can add Tumble to the list of requirements: the builds without Tumble will be eight points behind the builds that do have Tumble. This change would force builds to be even MORE specialized to have a worthwhile AC.

Dulcimerist
01-04-2011, 12:26 AM
I actually like this idea...tumble I think also has to do with damage from falls (but I may be wrong about that) but I mean that is a mute point as most people get feather fall or if they are a monk just have slow fall.

Yeah, it does let you take less damage from falls. Feather fall does make that a moot point, though. ;)

I had actually assumed that more ranks in tumble actually had some sort of benefit, such as moving faster while rolling around on the ground. I agree that it would be nice to have actual benefits in putting extra ranks into this skill. Bonuses to dodge AC or reflex saves would be excellent ideas.

Senshock
01-04-2011, 12:42 AM
Decreases falling damage and turns Tumbles into leaps/backflips..

OT:
Sure apply the benefit while tumbling :)


PS I like the skill and usually try and get more into tumble as points allow (than 1) since not feather falling over every little obstacle and 'sliding' on terrain (for example) where I can, lets you get around a lot faster - thats a good thing...;)


/my2copper

Memnir
01-04-2011, 12:59 AM
Funny, I've always found Tumble to be one of the more useful skills - and one of the ones the Devs did fairly well on in terms of making it relevant if you invest in it. And I don't think that granting a Dodge bonus is needed.


Now, Swim... there is a skill in need of some love'n. :D

sephiroth1084
01-04-2011, 01:01 AM
A bonus to AC for ranks of Tumble could be interesting, but I think 5 points for 20 ranks is a bit much. Also, this mostly improves monk AC, which doesn't really need that much help, as the other AC-likely classes (paladin, fighter) don't have access to the skill, so they'd be capped unless they splashed for access.

One thing that could be nice, would be giving tumbling characters over a certain threshold the ability to tumble through monsters (treat them as allies when tumbling).

Restoring the ability to tumble while under movement slowing effects would be nice.

Providing more distinct increases in tumbling speed per X ranks would be a decent incentive as well, especially if the speed matched or exceeded hasted run speed at a moderate value.

Tumbling can be used to avoid monster attacks, but the delay between swinging and tumbling and swinging, the reach monsters' attacks seem to have (and the lack of a perfect sync between attack animation and actual effect), and the general unimportance of avoiding single attacks all make this strategy rather pointless most of the time.

Really, the only place I've used tumble to avoid attacks is when I'm DPSing the Jailer in ToD on his back and see him wind up for a cleave attack.

Maybe have it reduce knockback from giants and such?

Xenus_Paradox
01-04-2011, 01:03 AM
I always take enough ranks to keep from taking 10 points of damage every time I jump up and down in heavy armor. Past that... not so much.

MrCow
01-04-2011, 01:52 AM
Providing more distinct increases in tumbling speed per X ranks would be a decent incentive as well, especially if the speed matched or exceeded hasted run speed at a moderate value.

If you hit a tumble around 35 your forward rolls will be about even with the run speed of haste.

If you hit a tumble around 10 your backward rolls will be about even with the run speed of haste when running backwards.

Zharfie
01-04-2011, 02:14 AM
http://eclipser.xmms2.org/tumble.png

Giev AC!

sephiroth1084
01-04-2011, 02:20 AM
If you hit a tumble around 35 your forward rolls will be about even with the run speed of haste.
I knew this, but feel that the number is a bit high.


If you hit a tumble around 10 your backward rolls will be about even with the run speed of haste when running backwards.
Hadn't realized this.

kjohnson1990
01-04-2011, 02:34 AM
I Enjoy tumble.

I have a character with tumble and i find it extremely useful for dodging fireballs. When i see a fire elemental do the "tale-tale" sign of casting a spell. I immediate tumble out of the way. Saves the healer some mana.

waterboytkd
01-04-2011, 11:46 AM
Just a pointer: I specifically said +1 dodge to AC per 5 ranks in tumble, not total modifier, so that those with a 100 (really?!) aren't just getting a +20 to AC. Since ranks max out at 23 in this game, the max modifier would be a +4.

Yeah, it would probably be best for monks, who receive the skill as a class skill, and have a hard time fitting both a +4 Insight bonus to AC and a +4 dodge bonus to AC into builds without resorting to using greensteel monk weapons. So it wouldn't really further that gap at all, since most high AC builds are pajama-wearers using Icy's, and this would just give another avenue towards that bonus.

Also, it gives an avenue towards other, lower dodge bonuses. Already got Icy's but no Chattering Ring? Leave your tumble ranks between 15 and 19, inclusive. Got Icy's, Chattering, and Epic Cloak of Night (or Chaos Guarde), leave your ranks between 5 and 9, inclusive.

I did forget about the reduced falling damage, but since most characters do have feather fall, it's not that useful. Really, I guess, it can help some builds by easing up gearing slots, but really, that's what my suggestion was, too! :D

krud
01-04-2011, 12:02 PM
I use tumble whenever i'm in my defender stance. I move faster tumbling than running with the defender penalty. They said they would remove that ability a while back, but i don't think it ever got implemented.

AMDarkwolf
01-04-2011, 12:04 PM
just to ask about the original post, u said 'only highest applies' so does this mean you'd change it so that +3 from chattering would no longer stack with +4 from icy?

Or that if u have 20+ ranks of tumble, it 'invalidates' your +4 from icy but u get to keep your +3 from chattering... but then if u had 19 ranks your chattering becomes useless but the icy still works?

Bleh.


If it was to add ac like u say(and sadly, ac is useless at end game) only +4 for full ranks is meh. At least make it a 'dodge bonus that stacks with anything' or some such. (Similar to how ship buff guys give 'natural armor' bonuses that stack with other natural armor bonus.

t0r012
01-04-2011, 12:17 PM
just to ask about the original post, u said 'only highest applies' so does this mean you'd change it so that +3 from chattering would no longer stack with +4 from icy?

Or that if u have 20+ ranks of tumble, it 'invalidates' your +4 from icy but u get to keep your +3 from chattering... but then if u had 19 ranks your chattering becomes useless but the icy still works?

Bleh.


If it was to add ac like u say(and sadly, ac is useless at end game) only +4 for full ranks is meh. At least make it a 'dodge bonus that stacks with anything' or some such. (Similar to how ship buff guys give 'natural armor' bonuses that stack with other natural armor bonus.

maybe it has been edited since but the post says won't stack with dodge bonuses of the same number.
the idea is that if you get a +3 from tumble it won't stack with a chattering ring but will still stack with an Icy. A +2 would stack with Icy and chattering but not with chaosgardes or maybar cloak.
==========

Do i like the idea sure do. then again i'm a monk looking down the barrel of Icy runs to get a +4 dodge to AC when I would be very happy to skip that with my tumble bonus to start on my DT robe.

Hoglum
01-04-2011, 12:21 PM
Just a random thought here. It might be cool if it could work like a defensive proc of some sort. Say, if a ray is shot at you or a monster starts a special attack and you have 15 ranks, there's a 15% chance of rolling out of the way. Make it so you can turn this part of the tumble ability off and on like power attack since people might not always want it to happen. Have a cool down of a few seconds or somthing between attempts.

Ithaquah
01-04-2011, 12:26 PM
Did you all forget about the mobility feat?

With 1 rank of tumble, and the mobility feat, you get a +4 ac bonus when tumbling.

http://compendium.ddo.com/wiki/Feat:Mobility

Missing_Minds
01-04-2011, 12:26 PM
If you hit a tumble around 35 your forward rolls will be about even with the run speed of haste.

If you hit a tumble around 10 your backward rolls will be about even with the run speed of haste when running backwards.

That reminds me Bovine confirmer...

Is it my imagination or do the tumbles when you go from rolling left/right to leaping left/right actually slow down.

When I just rolled I could easily tumble out of the way of rays and arrows, but with the leaping I tend to get hit now, as if that "ready, set jump" takes forever to kick off.

krud
01-04-2011, 12:28 PM
If you hit a tumble around 35 your forward rolls will be about even with the run speed of haste.

If you hit a tumble around 10 your backward rolls will be about even with the run speed of haste when running backwards.
It always makes me feel like i'm playing Frogger (http://www.maniacworld.com/frogger-arcade-game.html)

Therigar
01-04-2011, 12:40 PM
Does this idea have merit, or is it just insane?

Yes. Oh, insane, yes.

Clearly you've never jumped w/o feather fall. Tumble does have a use. But, more importantly, this is just an attempt to get around the AC issues of the game by giving an additional ability to the tumble skill.

We know that there are problems with AC -- self evident when the highest ACs in the game are attained by characters wearing no armor. But, this doesn't help it at all. If anything, it only makes the issue greater.

MrCow
01-04-2011, 01:13 PM
Is it my imagination or do the tumbles when you go from rolling left/right to leaping left/right actually slow down.

The flip animation does indeed take longer to execute, but covers about 50% more distance.


When I just rolled I could easily tumble out of the way of rays and arrows, but with the leaping I tend to get hit now, as if that "ready, set jump" takes forever to kick off.

Two changes, one to having a longer attack reach while in motion and the other for arrows with better tracking (both things which monsters get) make the burst aspect of the flip compared to the smooth aspect of the roll more of a liability than a boon.

ATF_Gabriel
01-04-2011, 01:38 PM
It'd be nice if the Tumble skill could receive an actual use. In PnP, it's awesome because it lets you move around with incurring attacks of opportunity. Doesn't really translate to this game. But, it didn't translate to Neverwinter Nights, either, so they gave Tumble another benefit: every 5 ranks in it gave you a +1 dodge bonus to AC.


It has been a long time since I played PnP but if I'm not mistaken this is the only game that hasn't transfered the tumble skill correctly from PnP. In NwN only monks got the bonus to AC for every 5 ranks if they were unarmored and unencumbered.