PDA

View Full Version : improving pale master summons



kartos
12-23-2010, 03:12 AM
as it stand currently most people advice against taking the pale master summons because they don't help that much to the character and they don't help too much so I thought about a way to balance them by adding passive and active bonuses to them so let's start:

skeletal knight 1
passive bonus:your knight teaches you how to fight you learn the undead fighting style giving your fist while in undead form 1D6 damage and speeding them up(preferably with new animation)*

active bonus:when you summon your knight your fists strengthen they now deal 1D8 damage also you count as having the Two Weapon Fighting feat

skeletal knight 2:
passive bonus:your new knight further teaches you the art of fighting you now count as having Improved Critical:Bludgeoning also you may channel any of your necrotic spells through your hands adding extra effects to your attack

active bonus:when you summon the knight your fists become 2D6 and you count as you have Improved Two Weapon Fighting

skeletal knight 3:
passive bonus:you gain the ability to summon any melee weapon up to the martial level this weapon is made of bones or is incorporeal (according to your form at the time of summoning) and counts as a natural extension of your arm allowing you to produce the on hit effects you normally do unarmed also you are considered proficient with the weapon and the weapon is keen*

active bonus:you receive +2 profane bonus to strength and count as you have Greater Two Weapon Fighting

*your to hit is the sum of your strength modifier and intelligence modifier and your bonus to damage is the sum of your strength modifier and half your intelligence modifier

skeletal archer 1
passive bonus:allows you to summon skeletal or incorporeal ranged weapon up to the martial level you are considered proficient with this weapon**

active bonus:add your archers dexterity modifier to your to hit

skeletal archer 2:
passive bonus:you may imbue the arrows with any of your necrotic spells

active bonus: you shoot faster as if you've taken rapid shot feat

skeletal archer 3:
passive bonus:tour ranged weapon is now considered keen

active bonus:your shots act is if you had the precise shot feat

*your attack modifier is your dexterity modifier+your intelligence modifier and your damage modifier is half your intelligence modifier

skeletal mage 1:
passive bonus:your necrotic spells receive +.25 critical multiplier (now they critical hit for 1.75 base damage)

active bonus:your necrotic spells difficulty check is increased by 1

skeletal mage 2:
passive bonus: your necrotic spells critical multiplier is increased by a further .25(necrotic spells now critical hit for double famage)

active bonus:you regenerate 100 spell points once the mage dies

skeletal mage 3:
passive bonus:your necromantic spell critical multiplier is further increased by additional .25(critical spells deal 2.25 base damage now)

active bonus:you receive 200 spell points when the mage dies


so what do you think guys is OP?UP? will you take summons if it's implanted? what changes do you want to see to the effects?

BTW active bonus works only when you summon your undead servant

donfilibuster
12-23-2010, 05:54 AM
But the same players that advice against PM are those that think that the summons have to be that useful.
The skeletons are just toys, but don't disagree they can use improvement.
Still, if you take PM the advantage is on the other abilities, and from those the DC bonus of the lich is one that counts.

kartos
12-23-2010, 07:24 AM
ya there are other good advantages to PM but still let's make the pets worth it

DannyYea
12-23-2010, 08:47 AM
They're funny, and epic on the roleplaying front, I for one (purely on a roleplay perspective) would love the undead arm (like NWN1 pale masters) to occur on pale master 2 (able to turn it off and on like helmets/armor kits).

Now onto the skeletons!

I think the archer isn't that bad tbh, its only a few points and it attacks more effeciently then the knight and it don't need re-summoning like the mage skeleton.

They don't need changing, but maybe specialising in the pale master gave SOME (only a slight) increase to spell points like the archmage, other then that I don't think they need changing too much :).

But I do like your ideas.

kartos
12-23-2010, 08:53 AM
thank you I would like to hear your ideas too :)

the final goal is to create a buff to the summons to be both balanced and fun and I'm not gonna accomplish that alone

DannyYea
12-23-2010, 09:01 AM
Buffs for skeletons would be great tbh, I didnt understand that personally at your original post (a bit dense sometimes lmao). Yes I agree being able to buff your summons would be a very good addition, especially if it was a permanent duration (when inside quest instance).

Personally I think its a great idea.

Aerendil
12-23-2010, 09:13 AM
But the same players that advice against PM are those that think that the summons have to be that useful.
The skeletons are just toys, but don't disagree they can use improvement.
Still, if you take PM the advantage is on the other abilities, and from those the DC bonus of the lich is one that counts.

That would be like arguing "just put Druids in to DDO, you don't need to make their pets work. They're just toys. The real advantage is the Druid itself."

While there's some relevance to that argument, it does take away a goodly chunk of the purpose of the PrE. In this case, being able to summon various skeletons to fight for you.
The PrC in D&D has always been about 3 things: the arcane caster growing tougher and more resilient; the caster getting a bonus with necromancy; and the ability to summon forth undead to fight for you.
You take one away, and it's a bit gimped.

Doxmaster
12-23-2010, 11:00 AM
The PrC in D&D has always been about 3 things: the arcane caster growing tougher and more resilient; the caster getting a bonus with necromancy; and the ability to summon forth undead to fight for you.
You take one away, and it's a bit gimped.

Not completely right.

*-With the second pale master level, you gain the ability to create 1 undead for free every day. This is summoning, I suppose. Many only grab this ability and ignore the rest of Pale master, since creating a few zombie/skeleton once per day for free is kind of nice.

*-At Pale master 5, you get the ability to control an undead for 1 round per level. Not really summoning at all. This isnt even good undead control, since it only lasts 1 round per level.

*-At pale master 9, you can have 1 undead cohort. This is a bit like undead summoning, I suppose. If you get a spawm making cohort, you could have a lot of undead under your control...if your DM lets you.

*-Pale masters no caster bonus for necromancy, at all. They are actually behind non-Palemasters in necromancy ability because of the dead level.

CrescentCalling_5
12-23-2010, 01:31 PM
I think that this side-tracks from the benefits of summoning :( and the original roleplaying concept of summons.

In Dungeons and Dragons, summons are almost always high strength, high endurance creatures (take a look at the summon spell in the player manual and the monster guide). The reason is that summons act as the "sword and shield" of the classes who can summon. They're meant to attract attention and take hits while their masters prepare some huge magical attack or spell. That's not to say the summons don't have magic of their own sometimes of course.

I don't like the idea of summons just innately buffing their casters...and then becoming useless (and without a big leap in AI and some decent stats on these things, they ARE useless). Wizards in DDO are "not" a frontline class. Often they're not even a midline class. They're somewhere between the backline and midline, shifting where they're needed.

What I feel these Palemaster summons really need (my opinion) are two things: a HUGE AI update so they stop running into walls like idiots >> and progressive stats that increase in power with the palemaster's level. Also the mages should learn new spells depending on their type as the master progresses level (along with the stat boost as the master's power improves).

kartos
12-23-2010, 02:07 PM
I think that this side-tracks from the benefits of summoning :( and the original roleplaying concept of summons.

In Dungeons and Dragons, summons are almost always high strength, high endurance creatures (take a look at the summon spell in the player manual and the monster guide). The reason is that summons act as the "sword and shield" of the classes who can summon. They're meant to attract attention and take hits while their masters prepare some huge magical attack or spell. That's not to say the summons don't have magic of their own sometimes of course.

I don't like the idea of summons just innately buffing their casters...and then becoming useless (and without a big leap in AI and some decent stats on these things, they ARE useless). Wizards in DDO are "not" a frontline class. Often they're not even a midline class. They're somewhere between the backline and midline, shifting where they're needed.

What I feel these Palemaster summons really need (my opinion) are two things: a HUGE AI update so they stop running into walls like idiots >> and progressive stats that increase in power with the palemaster's level. Also the mages should learn new spells depending on their type as the master progresses level (along with the stat boost as the master's power improves).

well ya yo may be right and before I wrote this suggestion I did think that the right path is AI improvment but let's face it improving AI is hard that's why this suggestion is here