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View Full Version : give another class intimidate?



waterboytkd
12-20-2010, 01:16 AM
Turbine gave Pally's intimidate (probably because so many people were making pally timmies; and there was the tanking PrE), so why not one more class?

Oddly, monks could use it as a class skill. They already have a stance (the earth stance) that is meant to be a tanking stance, but it's not so great because it takes a bit of effort in both play and build to successfully hate tank with a monk. If they gave monks intimidate, it'd give monks more build options, and put more timmies out there so one wouldn't have to wait as long in an lfm (maybe :P)

lugoman
12-20-2010, 01:20 AM
Come on they dont need it, that annoying squeak from the hafling monks should be enough to annoy any mob into wanting to kill them.

Meetch1972
12-20-2010, 01:29 AM
Maybe reword the OP suggestion to: How about giving monks the "annoy" skill, where your enhanced sense of inner harmony gives everyone the willies... :)

Pallies kinda needed something intimi-like, as (characteristically) being the righteous bastards they are warranted that they should have some sort of class skill or ability to pull mobs attention. Intim may not be a 100% fit to that - there was a big discussion about options prior to that change, but getting it as a class skill is close enough to be suitable.

OTOH the monk is at least one step further away from deliberately goading an enemy into consciously deciding to attack them instead compared to pally. If anything perhaps their tactics might be able to force an enemy to choose them as a target last, subconsciously (like an always on diplomacy mode).

In any case, I can't /sign this as is...

chrisgina39
12-20-2010, 01:29 AM
every class has a use for every skill and yet they dont give us every skill

waterboytkd
12-20-2010, 01:29 AM
Come on they dont need it, that annoying squeak from the hafling monks should be enough to annoy any mob into wanting to kill them.

THAT must be why shintao get a +6 intimidate over 3 tiers...but why do they get diplomacy, then? hmm...

Xenus_Paradox
12-20-2010, 01:33 AM
This would be completely OP. Turbine should add Vow of Poverty instead.

:D

Gorbadoc
12-20-2010, 02:06 AM
every class has a use for every skill and yet they dont give us every skill

I can't WAIT to roll up a Monk with max ranks in Perform!

chrisgina39
12-20-2010, 02:50 AM
I can't WAIT to roll up a Monk with max ranks in Perform!

no leave it low it is great 4 anoying party member and monsters

Cleanincubus
12-20-2010, 09:37 AM
I can't WAIT to roll up a Monk with max ranks in Perform!
Then you could have them join House Phiarlan as a stage performer. Doing martial arts demos and breaking bricks and stuff.

waterboytkd
12-20-2010, 01:48 PM
So, in fairness to monks getting intimidate, though, let me reiterate some of their ehancements: they get a PrE that gives a +6 to intimidate over three tiers (as well as diplo and heal, but eh), they have an animal path that gives a +4 to intimidate over four tiers, and they have a stance that really sees no play (the fists do, but not the stance), but gives them an 8/- DR and a boost to blocking DR as well, which is great for tanking.

They have it in them to be a timmy, they just need full access to the skill now.

Tobril
12-20-2010, 01:54 PM
...and after monks received intimidate as a class skill in update 11 they also gained the usage of a special new piece of raid loot...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5e/Captain_America_v5_8.jpg

Talltale-Storyteller
12-20-2010, 02:11 PM
If they gave monks intimidate, it'd give monks more build options, and put more timmies out there so one wouldn't have to wait as long in an lfm (maybe :P)

What are you running that absolutely REQUIRES an intimitank? I practically never see LFMs specifically requesting an intimitank (not sayin they are useless - I play one, but definitely do not need it for like 95% of the game's content.)


Imho:
Hate tank > on bosses.
Intimitank > on trash.

Hate tank w/ intimidate option = best.

And you can make an intimitank Shintao, just multiclass - which is exactly what paladin's did until that update if they wanted to intimidate.

flynnjsw
12-20-2010, 02:18 PM
every class has a use for every skill and yet they dont give us every skill

You can take any skill that you wish. It's called cross-class skills.

Lifespawn
12-20-2010, 02:32 PM
You can take any skill that you wish. It's called cross-class skills.

perform and rogue skills beg to differ



I agree on the synergy with the pre from shintao maybe they could make it full ranks if your shintao kind of how the tod rings work with the pre's

But then again i think they should look at Touch Of Death dc's and making them work with kensei since kensei gives you monk perks.

flynnjsw
12-20-2010, 02:38 PM
perform and rogue skills beg to differ





I should have qualified my remark. You can take any skill other than the exclusives, it's called cross class skills.

waterboytkd
12-20-2010, 11:03 PM
And you can make an intimitank Shintao, just multiclass - which is exactly what paladin's did until that update if they wanted to intimidate.

And look what happened to paladins... :D

Gorbadoc
12-21-2010, 10:10 AM
Going back to Waterboy's argument, the logic smells fishy.

Monks would make awesome intimitanks if Intimidate were a class skill. That doesn't mean that they should have Intimidate for a class skill. As-is, if you want an intimi-monk, you either have to make do with 12 fewer ranks at level 20, or you have to splash. I don't see that this is a bad thing. Monks are amazing survivalists. Why should intimidating be made easy for them?

Talltale-Storyteller
12-21-2010, 10:28 AM
And look what happened to paladins... :D

What happened to paladins?

Oh! If they wanted the capstone with their intim they had to LR and drop their fighter or rouge levels - thereby giving up umd haste boost and possibly evasion OR giving up haste boost and fighter bonus feats.

Sounds like pretty much the same decision every multi-class out there has to make when something changes for their class. I don't see how this in anyway helps your argument that monks should get intim - in fact I think it just strengthens the case for doing an 18/2 multiclass if you want intim on your monk.

waterboytkd
12-21-2010, 01:28 PM
Why should intimidating be made easy for them?

I just think that by giving them the Intimidate skill, it'd make for more possible monk builds, and more possible timmy builds. Variety is the spice of life, after all.


What happened to paladins? <snip glib response>

They were given intimidate as a class skill. As for whether or not they went pure pally or stayed multiclassed, that was up to the player. Because pally was a class well-suited to tanking, and people were making it, Turbine gave them the choice to be single- or multi-class.

Monks don't have that choice. Of course, you don't see a lot of tank monks. But maybe because they have to multiclass to do it?

Also, as for splashing a class to get intimidate, that hurts monks more than most other classes. At end game, to try and keep up dps-wise, a monk needs to be spending lots and lots of ki. That capstone is pretty important for keeping high levels of ki available. Plus, unlike paladins, who's benefits at level 20 are marginal, monks lose a lot by not getting to 20 levels (increased fist damage, perfect slow fall, DR 10/epic, +1 AC)

As a class, monks are either splashed for 2 levels to get Wis to AC and Evasion, or you go 20 levels to do, you know, monk stuff. Other builds obviously do exist, but they tend to be very specific.

My question to you becomes why shouldn't intimidating be made easy for them? As for flavor reasons, well, every kung fu movie seems to have a bad guy monk who intimidates and goads people into fighting him, and the class has a couple enhancement lines that actually boost it's intimidate score. It should get the skill as a class skill if only to make those bonuses mean something (because an irrelevant bonus is not a minor bonus; it's just like nothing at all).

Gorbadoc
12-21-2010, 02:40 PM
My question to you becomes why shouldn't intimidating be made easy for [monks]?

Fair enough. Let's look at the classes that do get intimidate as a class skill, and see whether there's anything balancing the ability.

Fighter: Good hit points and physical combat feats. Worthless stealth without a deep splash. Poor will saves without good gear. You can intimidate enemy melees, but you're weak to enemy casters.

Paladin: Similar to fighter, though more resistant to enemy casters. Even if you aggro enemy casters, you don't have Evasion without multiclassing. Also, like the fighter, you have no stealth abilities.

Barbarian: Fast movement and more hit points than the fighter or paladin. AC builds aren't an option, though DR builds are quite effective. Survival in high-end content depends on having lots of hit points and not losing them faster than a cleric can Heal you.

Rogue: Great mobility. You don't have a monk's Fast Movement, but you can sneak and you do get Evasion and a good reflex save. You can sneak up to enemy casters to pull fireballs off the rest of your party. Your disadvantage is the class's tendency to be squishy; if you goof and some melees gank you, you're in serious trouble.

Monk: Great mobility. Full stealth skills. Awesome reflex, will, and fortitude saves. Evasion. A bunch of free immunities. Super jump. Improved Recovery enhancement line. More hit points than a rogue, though not quite as many as a fighter or paladin. Intimidate ranks are easy to fit in, with all their base skill points. A wisdom build can achieve awesome AC and awesome single-target crowd control (Stunning Fist-- did they ever fix this, by the way?). Alternately, an intimidating pure monk might choose to make Charisma a solid ability, both to improve Intimidate, and for Shining Star.

In terms of survivability and mobility, monk seems to combine what's good about the other classes, but without having to suffer their disadvantages. Everything about a monk synergizes with Intimidate so well, it seems fair that, to get the full benefits of this synergy, players should have to splash into other classes.

waterboytkd
12-21-2010, 03:13 PM
Sorry for the length of the reply :D

Fair point. The survivability of a monk would make it perhaps more effective with Intimidate than the other classes (though, I have to disagree on stealth being worthwhile; unless there's some weird thing that if you intim mobs and they can't see you, they do nothing--as far as I'm aware, if they can't see you, they attack whoever they want).

But, in my experience, Pallies make their saves as often as a Monk. The immunities you mentioned are just poison and disease (Pally gets disease, WF get both). A monk's does have an innate SR, I guess.

AC tends not to matter at all. The bad guys for which you really want a Timmy tend to hit regardless (unless you have managed to truly twink your AC into the 100s), so DR is the most important. Granted, monks get DR 10/epic at level 20 (which is really good), but the most DR a tank has comes from a tower shield. And monks can't use them. Even if it's one of the raid-loot shields that grants automatic proficiency, a monk can't use it. Being uncentered is just too detrimental. So a monk is left with maxing out their DR at 19 (for pure monk), I believe. A monk splash could get a DR of 17 (8/- from Mountain Stance, 9 more from blocking). As a tank, monks would probably be sporting some of the lowest DR.

Also, monks would be sporting some of the lowest hp, as they have the lowest hit die (discounting rogue; they have less business tanking than a monk does :P). They need more good stats than fighters and barbs (only Pallies rival them on attribute point stress), which means less min-maxing. If a monk tries to develop a good CHA, what's he sacrificing? Ouch. Though the GM earth stance does give a +4 Con, making it so my halfling monk who took a starting 16 con can get up to a 28. That's right in line with fighters, maybe a touch up on pallies (maybe not), and below barbs. With the smaller hit die, you're looking at lower hp and lower DR than other tanks.

As for their mobility being an asset...who intimidates and then runs around? The real use of the skill is holding bad guys in place, either facing away from the rest of the party (as in boss fights), or in wall of fires (when dealing with trash mobs). I guess, someone might intimidate them then run around if there's blade barriers up. But, that means a monk is much more squishy because they're in air stance (as being in earth stance actually makes monks slower with a -7 % speed).

Monks are actually pretty hard up on skills. First, their stats are stressed, and it's hard to give a monk anything higher than a 10 Int without having the extra TR stat points. In fact, Int is a dumb stat for monks, and the majority of monk builds have an 8 (the most notable exception being those monks going for Combat Expertise). Then consider that they have to put max ranks in Concentration, and a monk is certainly giving up something just to have intimidate. Now, a monk taking intimidate would be best served going Shintao (for the +6 Intimidate), and Combat Expertise is a possible prereq for that PrE, so it seems likely that a monk thinking about taking intimidate will have the extra skill points for it. But, and I know this from experience, going that route is going to a) have a significant negative impact on your dps and b) put a lot of stress on feat selection.

So yeah, they do get the Improved Evasion and the good saves and the SR and the free poison/disease immunity. But they do actually pay for it with lower hp and lower DR than other tanks. And those last two are arguably the more important (definately the more important when tanking Suulo or Horoth, or even the Judge and Jailor). I feel that their stealth capabilities and their mobility are irrelevant in terms of intimidate. And, trying to build a timmy monk would decrease a monk's dps capabilities, which are already the lowest of the dps classes.

So I think, in the end, monks would be the best at tanking spellcasters, but probably the worst (again, not counting rogues) at tanking dps bad guys (which is the most/all? of the end game bosses that require tanking). Which really, fits with monk perfectly: acceptable dps, but the worst of the dps classes. It would also make them acceptable timmies, but probably the worst of the timmies.

PS A pally or fighter can splash into monk or rogue to make up the evasion thing (and many/most do), getting some other nice benefits, too (SA damage, UMD, Wis to AC), without any serious cost. A fighter loses one bonus feat and a fairly good capstone. Pally loses 1 smite and a less good capstone, but one that's still pretty good. Monks? If they splash, though they can gain some nice stuff (Cha to saves, 1d6 SA, a couple of fighter feats), they lose out on more: 2 damage per swing, DR10/epic, perfect slow fall, +1 AC, and, most importantly, their capstone, which helps them keep up in melee (especially in non-raids where there's down-time between fights).