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View Full Version : Redoing of XP gain and lost



Aussieee
12-18-2010, 04:10 AM
Pls devs can you take a look at xp penalty and how is affecting players and play styles. Redo xp penalty for dying. At this point the xp system doesn't encourage group play it actually discourages it. People would prefer to play solo or in small group of friends because they are afraid they will lose the 10% xp bonus for no deaths. Even people would prefer bringing a hireling along because the penalty from them dying is less then a real player dying. We should be encouraged to group together. This is what makes this game so special the people and interacting with each other, this is what keeps us around and makes people come back. The xp penalty for anyone death is supposed to make the group work together and trying to achieve something together but you have to take a look at the issues here nobody can really tell anyone what to do in the quest, if they simply don't listen , run ahead and grab the whole dungeon and drag it back, get a red alert......... if people don't really know how to keep them self alive and be self sufficient if needed everybody suffers. Not 1 but the whole group loses 10% xp!

1st death on character effects them and gives them 5% loss and the party gets a 2% xp loss(which doesn't go up with any additional deaths), 2nd death -7% and 3+ is 10%. This will actually make people play more careful and not be afraid that they have to pug and they will lose that precious xp bonus, i am so tired of using xp potions to make up for somebody else dying:( Newer people cap way 2 fast riding on tail of others and don't really get to learn much this will be a way to slow them down and make them adjust their play style so they don't lose so much xp and also they won't ruin other peoples xp...... pls take a look at this issue.

Would be nice if we can take a look also of reenter once again let only the person reentering be effected by this.

And last how about a xp bonus for not breaking boxes? Maybe a 5 or 7%?

Krag
12-18-2010, 04:17 AM
/signed, sealed and delivered

Players should not be penalized for grouping with players.

ToKu
12-18-2010, 04:17 AM
Unless I have missed something... these are bonuses that have been added to quests. They did not adjust the xp these quests gave to assume you would get all bonuses in order to meet its old level.

So if a person dies you are not taking a xp penalty, you are simply not getting the xp bonus.

XP penalties are in the form of : times completed and highest level toon over the level of the quest.

Xezno
12-18-2010, 04:19 AM
Totally agree. If anything you should get more xp for having a bigger group.

Xezno
12-18-2010, 04:22 AM
Unless I have missed something... these are bonuses that have been added to quests. They did not adjust the xp these quests gave to assume you would get all bonuses in order to meet its old level.

So if a person dies you are not taking a xp penalty, you are simply not getting the xp bonus.

XP penalties are in the form of : times completed and highest level toon over the level of the quest.

loosing a bonus is the same as a penalty. Actually the game would be better off if they just removed the bonus all together.

ToKu
12-18-2010, 04:24 AM
I actually like it as is. The bonus is enticing enough that most people strive not to be reckless (that I have encountered) and to not die, and if someone does, it gives us something to chat and laugh about while completing the quest.

ToKu
12-18-2010, 04:28 AM
loosing a bonus is the same as a penalty. Actually the game would be better off if they just removed the bonus all together.

So you propose we remove the penalty for dying, by removing all bonuses?

I think the problem is too many people expect some of the bonuses to just be part of the quest, kinda like optionals. They are nice to have, things to strive for, benchmarks... they are not required.

Aussieee
12-18-2010, 04:39 AM
So you propose we remove the penalty for dying, by removing all bonuses?

I think the problem is too many people expect some of the bonuses to just be part of the quest, kinda like optionals. They are nice to have, things to strive for, benchmarks... they are not required.
LOl you are kidding right? Are you saying that is perfectly ok if somebody reenters the dungeon about 5 times? Are you still gonna continue laughing after he has just ruined your xp by dying as well? :D

ToKu
12-18-2010, 04:49 AM
LOl you are kidding right? Are you saying that is perfectly ok if somebody reenters the dungeon about 5 times? Are you still gonna continue laughing after he has just ruined your xp by dying as well? :D

Last I checked if someone else reenters the dungeon I only lose the 10% for that, the person in question however would lose more. If they die and I lose another 10% BONUS... I still make base xp, plus any bonuses I do manage to complete, plus my guildship buff, plus my voice of the master, plus any xp pots I may be running... I am still making more then the base xp of the dungeon and content. I could be wrong but this is also something that happens less then a pug shroud failing so I have no experience with it.

Now if I was in a lvl 11 quest and someone brought in a lvl 13+ that would be different, because its reducing the minimum I would recieve.

Its like you order an ice cream sunday with a cherry on top, but sometimes they give you 2 cherries, so you complain when you dont get 2 even though that 2nd one was a BONUS beyond what you were already getting.

Would you prefer they never give you 2 cherries again? Or would you rather sometimes get that extra treat?

phillymiket
12-18-2010, 04:55 AM
Hmmmm...

I always considered the xp bonus as an award for the team working together and avoiding anyone dieing not for an individual to be able to avoid death.

It seems like a nice incentive to make people buff each other and help each other.

Example: I was in a Wiz King where the leader said "don't worry about traps we all have evasion". I said "ahhh, I dont". The reply was "Well I guess you're SOL".

Without the bonus won't there be more people who could care less about their party members?
Would the change to the bonus make it less likely that folks would go back to help struggling party members and make pugs even more annoying?

I'm just wondering.
I like it when parties stick together.
It's more fun and D&D like for me even when it takes a bit longer. (I like the ride not just the destination)
I like incentives to act as a party.

It sure is a shame some people disrespect the XP and time of others and act foolishly though.
I feel your pain but I respectfully don't think I agree with this change.

Aussieee
12-18-2010, 05:32 AM
Its like you order an ice cream sunday with a cherry on top, but sometimes they give you 2 cherries if you smile, so you complain when you dont get 2 because somebody ran by and made the ice cream lady mad even though that 2nd one was a BONUS beyond what you were already getting.

Would you prefer they never give you 2 cherries again? Or would you rather sometimes get that extra treat?
I would prefer to be responsible for my xp and not be at the mercy of others.


Hmmmm...

I always considered the xp bonus as an award for the team working together and avoiding anyone dieing not for an individual to be able to avoid death.

It seems like a nice incentive to make people buff each other and help each other. it also can make people me more self sufficient and try to survive longer, strive for better, instead of not carrying potions and be a burden to a party

Example: I was in a Wiz King where the leader said "don't worry about traps we all have evasion". I said "ahhh, I dont". The reply was "Well I guess you're SOL".

Without the bonus won't there be more people who could care less about their party members?
Would the change to the bonus make it less likely that folks would go back to help struggling party members and make pugs even more annoying?

I'm just wondering.
I like it when parties stick together.
It's more fun and D&D like for me even when it takes a bit longer. (I like the ride not just the destination)not everyone has a whole day to smell the flowers and look and wonder around
I like incentives to act as a party.

It sure is a shame some people disrespect the XP and time of others and act foolishly though.
I feel your pain but I respectfully don't think I agree with this change.
While I somewhere agree that it is nice to play as a party it is the time that it doesn't happen when people die, they don't listen or join groups which they weren't welcomed( zerg lfm saying know the way-noob joins with share, where is the quest?). Most of the people feel bad when they die , I know I do as well because I am screwing at least 5 more people of 10% xp!!! Again i don't want to pay for somebody else's death and I don't want them to pay for mine as well.

Uska
12-18-2010, 05:33 AM
Its not a penalty its a bonus and as it is it gives party members insentive to try and keep each other alive. so not signed.

NinjaNeed
12-18-2010, 05:45 AM
/ NOT signed!

Reasons...

1. It will remove peoples need to play as a team. Healers would stop healing others just to make sure they survive to get the bonus.

2. The xp is BONUS xp, NOT a penalty.

Nyvn
12-18-2010, 06:36 AM
Last I checked if someone else reenters the dungeon I only lose the 10% for that, the person in question however would lose more. If they die and I lose another 10% BONUS... I still make base xp, plus any bonuses I do manage to complete, plus my guildship buff, plus my voice of the master, plus any xp pots I may be running... I am still making more then the base xp of the dungeon and content. I could be wrong but this is also something that happens less then a pug shroud failing so I have no experience with it.

Now if I was in a lvl 11 quest and someone brought in a lvl 13+ that would be different, because its reducing the minimum I would recieve.

Its like you order an ice cream sunday with a cherry on top, but sometimes they give you 2 cherries, so you complain when you dont get 2 even though that 2nd one was a BONUS beyond what you were already getting.

Would you prefer they never give you 2 cherries again? Or would you rather sometimes get that extra treat?

Well the problem is that to get 2 cherries you're better off excluding people. Short manning or soloing quests instead of picking up a Pug. Should a grouping centric game encourage people to not group?

rexservorum
12-18-2010, 06:53 AM
So if a person dies you are not taking a xp penalty, you are simply not getting the xp bonus.

/notsigned because of this. It is called a "Flawless Victory Bonus" for a reason - the quest, not just your own performance, was executed flawlessly. Perhaps players who did not die could be given a different, smaller bonus for having been able to remain alive, like how currently that 10% goes down to 5% if it was only a hireling that died.

Yes, it's cool when things go perfectly and you get as much XP as possible. Yes, it's annoying when the 10% bonus goes away due to someone playing irresponsibly. But if you are on your double TR character with an xp pot ticking and desperate to get every last iota of XP/min from a quest, you have a few options:

a) solo it
b) pug it (knowing it may go pear-shaped and taking it in stride when it does)
c) pug it "TRs/vets only" style or guild run it for extra insurance even though it will take longer to get a group, or
d) pug it, knowing it may go pear-shaped but totally prepared to chew out and squelch anyone who loses you your bonus until your list is filling up faster than my stomach with egg rolls at the local Chinese buffet.

Man I love egg rolls, especially if they have pork. I also love seeing people do any of those options except "d." DDO-related stress the world over would totally reduce except that "d" seems to be the most common occurrence.

The other day I was doing ADQ when someone died a few minutes in. Someone else I'd never played with but who'd already proven himself to be rather witty said over voice chat, "Well, glad we got that ten percent out of the way." I laughed, but I also realized that this is the way I have come to feel about things. I don't like watching people fight or get ****ed off, even when I am not the target of their ire. Not that I don't try to remain alive or keep others alive or anything, but it always comes as a sort of relief when I hear, "ding!" and Flawless Victory vanishes from the xp report. Maybe they fought, maybe they didn't, but at least it's over and done with and I don't have to sit there and wonder if a rage storm is on the horizon.


I would prefer to be responsible for my xp and not be at the mercy of others.

In this case you may be happier soloing. I know I usually am!

cdbd3rd
12-18-2010, 06:55 AM
I've read thru this thread as well as the one that spawned it.


Auss, I feel where you're coming from. However, from a fairness viewpoint you can't restrict penalties (or "loss of bonus", for those that prefer that version) to individual XPs without somehow also limiting extra bonuses to individual XPs.

For example. Rogues would be the only ones getting bonus XPs for trap neutralization. Or Conquest bonuses only going to characters that head the Kill Count. Ransack only to the ones actually breaking the boxes & crates....


/Goes back to sitting on his non-pugging fence. :o

ToKu
12-18-2010, 07:02 AM
Well the problem is that to get 2 cherries you're better off excluding people. Short manning or soloing quests instead of picking up a Pug. Should a grouping centric game encourage people to not group?

If my choices are to fill spots for the sake of filling them... or short manning it with quality players, I choose the later every single time. Changing the nature of this would not change players in a positive way.

I will still shortman it rather then risk players that will slow me down, and with no encentive from ones peers, players may not improve.

ToKu
12-18-2010, 07:04 AM
The other day I was doing ADQ when someone died a few minutes in. Someone else I'd never played with but who'd already proven himself to be rather witty said over voice chat, "Well, glad we got that ten percent out of the way." I laughed, but I also realized that this is the way I have come to feel about things. I don't like watching people fight or get ****ed off, even when I am not the target of their ire. Not that I don't try to remain alive or keep others alive or anything, but it always comes as a sort of relief when I hear, "ding!" and Flawless Victory vanishes from the xp report. Maybe they fought, maybe they didn't, but at least it's over and done with and I don't have to sit there and wonder if a rage storm is on the horizon.

I usually say something along the lines of "glad that stress is out of the way" myself. ;D

RTN
12-18-2010, 07:15 AM
Would be nice if we can take a look also of reenter once again let only the person reentering be effected by this.

And last how about a xp bonus for not breaking boxes? Maybe a 5 or 7%?

I'm torn about the -10% bonus for dying, although since this is a bonus you lose, I can live with it. However, reentering can benefit the whole party, especially if a reenter is actually about getting sp back. This one is too open to abuse and should definitely not be changed.

An xp bonus for not breaking boxes is just silly. What are we, the OCD explorers? Getting a bonus for breaking them at least fits a bit with the overall theme of us being explorers, mass murders of monsters and pilferers of other people's stuff.

There is more than enough XP in the game, even for TRs (and yes, I've done TR).

sweez
12-18-2010, 07:32 AM
I've read thru this thread as well as the one that spawned it.


Auss, I feel where you're coming from. However, from a fairness viewpoint you can't restrict penalties (or "loss of bonus", for those that prefer that version) to individual XPs without somehow also limiting extra bonuses to individual XPs.

For example. Rogues would be the only ones getting bonus XPs for trap neutralization. Or Conquest bonuses only going to characters that head the Kill Count. Ransack only to the ones actually breaking the boxes & crates....


/Goes back to sitting on his non-pugging fence. :o

This is a newsletter I could subscribe to.

As my 5x(I think, maybe more) TR guildy says: "please dont die - but if you do, I won't have a baby over it".

ToKu
12-18-2010, 07:36 AM
This is a newsletter I could subscribe to.

As my 5x(I think, maybe more) TR guildy says: "please dont die - but if you do, I won't have a baby over it".

I wish I had that TR guildy! Mine blackmails me if I die, saying I have to stay awake and run another with them to make up for the lost xp!

LunaCee
12-18-2010, 08:15 AM
1. It will remove peoples need to play as a team. Healers would stop healing others just to make sure they survive to get the bonus.

I still say that sometimes it is far far cheaper to let somebody soul stone and rage and drop group... or wake up and realize the Healer has had enough of their abusive shenanigans.

Hmm... 10% xp bonus or half my blue bar? I'll keep my blue bar, thanks.

Lorz
12-18-2010, 08:19 AM
I would prefer to be responsible for my xp and not be at the mercy of others.


While I somewhere agree that it is nice to play as a party it is the time that it doesn't happen when people die, they don't listen or join groups which they weren't welcomed( zerg lfm saying know the way-noob joins with share, where is the quest?). Most of the people feel bad when they die , I know I do as well because I am screwing at least 5 more people of 10% xp!!! Again i don't want to pay for somebody else's death and I don't want them to pay for mine as well.

Then run solo.
You want to benefit like your running solo but evidently can't. So either step up and solo it or accept that others may die.

Gustel
12-18-2010, 08:52 AM
/not signed
reson if we remove penalty for party then we should remove bonuses aswell
%-for conqest too the person who would even manage too get it , since u got like 5ppl swiging there swords arund
%-for traps
%-breakables
extra optionals, miniboses
and for completion, the one who hits the last wins XD,note this actually means that out of all party members only 1 will complete all others would have to redo,EDIT: where the completion of a quest is based on killing stuff, or activatig items and **** the one who does it wins

DDO is a party play, u get the beefs for party but dont wanna any penalty if some1 f**** up, then go solo, there r plenty of ways too do so

Krag
12-18-2010, 09:46 AM
Then run solo.
You want to benefit like your running solo but evidently can't. So either step up and solo it or accept that others may die.

Do we discuss Aussies playstyle or the game mechanic?
Sure, Aussie can run solo. But should the core mechanic encourage her to solo?

Noctus
12-18-2010, 10:11 AM
If my choices are to fill spots for the sake of filling them... or short manning it with quality players, I choose the later every single time. Changing the nature of this would not change players in a positive way.

I will still shortman it rather then risk players that will slow me down, and with no encentive from ones peers, players may not improve.


This post sums it up.


Ending a quest with 10% less XP if someone died, compared to if noone died --> it is completely irrelevant what the semantics are to call this procedure. "Loosing a bonus" or "Getting a penalty", the result is exactly the same.




I am talking from the viewpoint of a experienced player who is not in a quest to smell the roses, but on a TR aiming for XP. And his decision to pug the quest, or just shortman it with whatever guildies/friends/channelmates are available right now.

(sidenote: TR alone != experience player). You hvae to watch your XP/min or the grind will burn you out quickly.


Filling the group up with puggers takes time you´re not questing, the quest itself is likly to go a bit slower that with just vets who all know exactly what to do, and to top it off is much much more likely to get less XP when you complete, because a random pugger dying is much more likely than a vet full of twink/TR gear dying.


So choice is between
* investing time to building and then leading a group - with the reward being with some parts perhaps being a bit easier, but most probably get less XP out of it

* or just shortmanning it right now - being quicker in and out of quest, and most probably not getting 10% less.



The "10% less XP if someone died" noticeably stacks the board against pugging groups when vets are contemplating what to do next on a TR. - And this i consider a negative sideeffect of this mechanic.



Grouping should be encouraged by the game mechanics in an MMO. - The "10% less XP when someone died" currently does exactly the opposite.



P.S.
To those that claim that without it teamplay would break down in pug groups?
- Did you notice that teamplay breaks down after the 1st death in a quest? healers stop healing? Rogues stop disabling traps?.... No? ... Indeed, because people still coordinate and teamplay even after this, when a death costs no more XP to them personally.
--> argument refuted.

Limey
12-18-2010, 10:35 AM
I would like it if in some quests they had death of any party member as - Quest Failed.

phillymiket
12-18-2010, 12:27 PM
Grouping should be encouraged by the game mechanics in an MMO. - The "10% less XP when someone died" currently does exactly the opposite.

P.S.
To those that claim that without it teamplay would break down in pug groups?
- Did you notice that teamplay breaks down after the 1st death in a quest? healers stop healing? Rogues stop disabling traps?.... No? ... Indeed, because people still coordinate and teamplay even after this, when a death costs no more XP to them personally.
--> argument refuted.

Yea but...I mean there's...ah...........d'oh :(

Ok. That's a very good point. I don't see teamwork break down after the first death.
I may see the value of this change.
Food for thought.

ToKu
12-18-2010, 12:42 PM
To those that claim that without it teamplay would break down in pug groups?
- Did you notice that teamplay breaks down after the 1st death in a quest? healers stop healing? Rogues stop disabling traps?.... No? ... Indeed, because people still coordinate and teamplay even after this, when a death costs no more XP to them personally.
--> argument refuted.

While the group may or may not break down, depending on how the death happened you may find the player in question blacklisted. Alot of TR's I have encountered in pugs are pretty unforgiving, especially ones with long term goals.

This causes another problem, skilled players find other skilled players, they know who they can trust to complete a quest in a timely fashion and with little to no deaths (pref no but sometimes you just roll that 1.) With the very viable option of short manning it, this causes newer players to be paired with less experienced players, and you end up with 8 con toons with no fort running through GH being 1 shot. :P

I have an idea I want to think out before I really comment on to encourage grouping. The issue becomes one where you want it to be worthwhile for all parties involved, without making it too abusable.

FengXian
12-18-2010, 12:55 PM
It sounds like the OP expects to always pug with veteran players...which can be done, if you are careful in selecting your party and don't just randomly click the "accept" button.

If you do accept random people you should expect them not to be as good as you want them to be...this is not about about encouraging solo-play, it's about being able to recognize a party's level of ability and many other factors :/ might wanna try running hard rather than elite with some groups, dunno...

sorry,

/not signed

Nahual
12-18-2010, 01:21 PM
not signed



I would however sign to bring back the 10% bonus for running quests underlevel!

That rocked and would give TRs a better use of xp.

FengXian
12-18-2010, 01:25 PM
I would however sign to bring back the 10% bonus for running quests underlevel!

That rocked and would give TRs a better use of xp.

Yeah that would be great :)

Aussieee
12-18-2010, 02:27 PM
/ NOT signed!

Reasons...

1. It will remove peoples need to play as a team. Healers would stop healing others just to make sure they survive to get the bonus.

2. The xp is BONUS xp, NOT a penalty.
People already don't wanna play with others because the game punishes you for wanting to group with others. I see healers now even myself that won't heal stupidity so...

Even bringing a hireling is cheaper xp death wise.

Aussieee
12-18-2010, 02:36 PM
/not signed
reson if we remove penalty for party then we should remove bonuses aswell
%-for conqest too the person who would even manage too get it , since u got like 5ppl swiging there swords arund
%-for traps
%-breakables
extra optionals, miniboses
and for completion, the one who hits the last wins XD,note this actually means that out of all party members only 1 will complete all others would have to redo,EDIT: where the completion of a quest is based on killing stuff, or activatig items and **** the one who does it wins

DDO is a party play, u get the beefs for party but[] dont wanna any penalty if some1 f**** up, then go solo, there r plenty of ways too do so
Your last sentence kind of struck me hahaha so you are saying the game is a group play and after the but part you are telling me how you really feel about the game mechanic. So I shall get penalized for wanting to group with others and they can risk to lose xp from me as well? I don't see how this is encouraging players to group up.

protokon
12-18-2010, 02:58 PM
You can change the game mechanics all you want, but you cant fix stupid.

even if this penalty was to be changed, you'd still be annoyed of useless pileons joining your group, only to get lost getting to the quest or dieing before reaching it, no matter the penalty xp-wise (or loss of bonus) your always going to run into idiots when you pug. That hold you back but do not contribute. the game is at it's stage where TRing is going through the motions for the vets, and playing with newer players is more of a hassle than its worth, fewer and fewer vets are willing to do this anymore.

Never, and I mean never, trust a pugger.

KillEveryone
12-18-2010, 03:45 PM
I think there should be a XP penalty to death.

-10% XP for the person that dies but keep going until it is a -100%. This should only effect the person that dies and not the group.

Noctus
12-18-2010, 04:14 PM
I think there should be a XP penalty to death.

-10% XP for the person that dies but keep going until it is a -100%. This should only effect the person that dies and not the group.

This would be a positive change and stop the biggest disincentive for grouping.

rexservorum
12-18-2010, 04:24 PM
I think there should be a XP penalty to death.

-10% XP for the person that dies but keep going until it is a -100%. This should only effect the person that dies and not the group.

Oh my god. I can only assume that you are joking.

If that became the way things worked... well, good luck getting a healer. Ever again.

I'm pretty good at healing (not fantastic or anything), but mishaps do occur, and more importantly there are a heck of a lot of players prepared to blame their own stupidity-related deaths on whoever happens to be throwing cure spells around. If I had to worry about people potentially blaming me for losing most or all of their quest XP, I would delete my FvS. I doubt I am the only one.

KillEveryone
12-18-2010, 04:35 PM
This would be a positive change and stop the biggest disincentive for grouping.

I just want to encourage people to step up their gaming but also step up their builds.

Really, currently I don't mind if someone dies but I'm also not on a TR yet and I plan on doing a lot of solo running except for a few quests that are quicker with a party. First timers I kind of expect them to die. I been there, done just that. We all start somewhere and we all have to learn.

I also don't roll gimp characters that can't survive a bad look from a critter or those that can't hit the side of a barn. It can be quite frustrating to group with that CON used as a dump stat character that constantly goes ding and starts saying I'm/whoever a bad healer just because they keep dying and don't accept any responsibility in themselves or their character build.

I would really like to see a system implemented that will encourage people to step up their skills and step up their characters. This may be tough love but sometimes that is what it takes to get some people to improve.

Currently, there is no mechanic to make a person improve themselves or their build. They can blithly get to cap with a gimped character or poor skills.

KillEveryone
12-18-2010, 04:38 PM
Oh my god. I can only assume that you are joking.

If that became the way things worked... well, good luck getting a healer. Ever again.

I'm pretty good at healing (not fantastic or anything), but mishaps do occur, and more importantly there are a heck of a lot of players prepared to blame their own stupidity-related deaths on whoever happens to be throwing cure spells around. If I had to worry about people potentially blaming me for losing most or all of their quest XP, I would delete my FvS. I doubt I am the only one.

I'm totally serious.

People need to step up and take responsibility for their player skills or their build. Skills do take time to improve but people can improve, builds should be re-rolled after it is demonstrated they are gimped instead of trying to drag that character from lvl 8 to cap.

Another thing, people need to learn some sort of self preservation. I build divine casters, not healers. I build spellsinger bards, not healers. Both classes are quite capable of healing well but you cannot heal stupid.

woodrick
12-18-2010, 04:48 PM
and why did the devs have to hit the xp penalty with a muppet bat anyway?

the xp penalty (yes it is a penalty) was introduced when they nerfed the base xp of quests the 20% bonus for not dying and no reentries goes someway to making up for the base xp that was taken away.

I still stand by the system at the time of release, you die you lose xp.
I still have no idea why this was changed, it ensured players built their toons reasonably, it ensured players learnt how to play their toon and the game, it also ensured players tried to get the best gear possible for their toon. Overalll making for better players server wide so it wasn't a scary proposition pugging because if someone kept dying they were losing xp, taking them longer to level, therefore learning more about the game and how to play.

Seriously as someone from pre release, how many muppets are running around now? and to tell the truth looking for trs doesn't save u from getting muppets alot of trs are played by muppets that benefit from the current state of game play and would have struggled to get xp to lvl to 5 with the origional death penalties.

not signing Aussies changes (sorry) but want a return to the good old days, where dying actually was an issue and the number of muppets was limited to the half dozen plat farmers you knew by name

rexservorum
12-18-2010, 05:01 PM
I'm totally serious.

People need to step up and take responsibility for their player skills or their build. Skills do take time to improve but people can improve, builds should be re-rolled after it is demonstrated they are gimped instead of trying to drag that character from lvl 8 to cap.

Another thing, people need to learn some sort of self preservation. I build divine casters, not healers. I build spellsinger bards, not healers. Both classes are quite capable of healing well but you cannot heal stupid.

I'm in full agreement with all of that. The "divine caster" vs. "healer" point is critical; I am a big believer in the Path to Enlightenment in re playing a Cleric or Favored Soul. Self sufficiency and a certain level of BYOH are wonderful as well. I would support almost anything that encourages that style of play, but I cannot support what you have suggested. The near-vanishing of characters who intend to take it upon themselves to heal others would be disastrous for this game. Cure pots and the meager UMD of which a pure Barbarian (for example) is capable are just not enough to get through all the content in DDO. Unless you are of the opinion that everyone should splash Rogue for full UMD?

Kominalito
12-18-2010, 05:08 PM
/signed, sealed and delivered

Players should not be penalized for grouping with players.

i kinda think they should. what else is going to pressure players to contribute or become better? there are enough horrible players pugging as it is now. if people are afraid of a wipe then maybe they'll try a little harder.

Templarion
12-18-2010, 05:29 PM
/signed

I rather let veteran players than newbs join my parties. One of the major reasons is the lose or gain of this bonus/penalty xp.

Krag
12-18-2010, 05:46 PM
i kinda think they should. what else is going to pressure players to contribute or become better? there are enough horrible players pugging as it is now. if people are afraid of a wipe then maybe they'll try a little harder.

Individual penalties are a lot more efficient way to educate people.
The penalty does not have to be severe. Your average newbie on his first life won't notice the difference between +10% from the flawless run and +0% without bonus. But he WILL notice that the other guy is getting more and this knowledge will be painful enough for him to start improving.

jwdaniels
12-18-2010, 05:54 PM
If the entire reason you're playing is to grind out experience on your TR as fast as possible, you have just reduced the game to the equivalent of a hamster wheel. Assuming that you will get that 10% experience bonus at the end of a quest is like assuming you're going to get a Christmas bonus at work because you got one last year - it doesn't always work that way. There are a lot of people that consider their bonuses to be a part of their compensation for working - that isn't true either.

Honestly, to me losing a bonus for someone else hurts more than penalizing myself.

woodrick
12-18-2010, 06:27 PM
still going back to original system, you die you lose xp will fix everything.
still no one has been able to give a good reason as to why it was changed

Noctus
12-18-2010, 06:50 PM
Individual penalties are a lot more efficient way to educate people.
The penalty does not have to be severe. Your average newbie on his first life won't notice the difference between +10% from the flawless run and +0% without bonus. But he WILL notice that the other guy is getting more and this knowledge will be painful enough for him to start improving.


I concur: personal feedback is always better than group punishment.

Hokiewa
12-18-2010, 07:01 PM
Simple fix. Remove the 10% bonus. It's not actual quest XP, anymore then hitting the secret doors, the traps, the barrels....

It's not an original bonus, in fact, XP/Optionals have increased for the most part. Yes, yes, yes the most run quests were dialed down...but xp debt was eliminated, optionals were greatly enhanced blah blah.

You aren't getting penalized. That thinking has lead to the decline of grouping...period.

Gustel
12-18-2010, 07:40 PM
Your last sentence kind of struck me hahaha so you are saying the game is a group play and after the but part you are telling me how you really feel about the game mechanic. So I shall get penalized for wanting to group with others and they can risk to lose xp from me as well? I don't see how this is encouraging players to group up.

It doesnt, the real problem u c is in the fact u could build a WF wiz/rog and neatly get all the bonuses, seriusly ALL of them. And potencialy no penalties. But in a group where u bring in ppl too get u bonuses becuz ur class is not able too get them all, u should also get penalized as a group for failing.

Note.I build mostly toons that do have some mesure of self-sufficiancy even if not min/max, so no fighters,barbs for me.

When said group play should be encuraged by changig existing system of play i agree, but not in a direction u suggest. The main problem i c so far is that many way too many prros like urself rarly even bother teling newbs how too play, finnish quests etc, And the death penalty is pretty much the only thing so far that even makes u think abut that. And as many have said even with death penalty no one really cares.

Aussieee
12-18-2010, 08:28 PM
It doesnt, the real problem u c is in the fact u could build a WF wiz/rog and neatly get all the bonuses, seriusly ALL of them. And potencialy no penalties. But in a group where u bring in ppl too get u bonuses becuz ur class is not able too get them all, u should also get penalized as a group for failing.

Note.I build mostly toons that do have some mesure of self-sufficiancy even if not min/max, so no fighters,barbs for me.

When said group play should be encuraged by changig existing system of play i agree, but not in a direction u suggest. The main problem i c so far is that many way too many prros like urself rarly even bother teling newbs how too play, finnish quests etc, And the death penalty is pretty much the only thing so far that even makes u think abut that. And as many have said even with death penalty no one really cares.
LOL I am in no form a pro and I never claim to be but I will carry potions, scrolls and try to help as much as possible and get the group going. But however there are many players that don't listen, won't listen and just whatever they want.

I am sorry but I am here to teach people I might give an advice or ask what somebody is wearing and why they are taking so much damage but people get offended when you are questioning them! There was a wiz in vale with no heavy fort died from 1 monster and cream for help. I rezzed him healed him with 1 heal and he was full! He had 140 hp at level 16 no heavy fort. When asked if he had any he got offended and said he knows how to play....... I asked only because I was gonna offer him 1 but after his response I didn't want to help him anymore. sure he went in quest and died used his mana for nothing and was carried by somebody in their pocket.

People used to care about death penalty because it used to matter. It was big and it used to hurt. We should do something so people start carrying again and play more cautiously try to learn instead of waiting somebody to magically teach them. Nobody can teach stupid btw@!

Noctus
12-19-2010, 10:07 AM
...
Grouping should be encouraged by the game mechanics in an MMO. - The "10% less XP when someone died" currently does exactly the opposite.

...


Neg-repping me for this, without even a counter-argument? - What a wuss with a antisocial personality you are, Mr. Neg-repper.

Aussieee
12-19-2010, 08:28 PM
Neg-repping me for this, without even a counter-argument? - What a wuss with a antisocial personality you are, Mr. Neg-repper.
People don't like hearing the truth, here let me fix you:D

chrisgina39
12-19-2010, 08:40 PM
aaaa so if it looks bad on my healer i should abandon my team so i dont get xp lose good idea:P

Aussieee
12-20-2010, 03:46 AM
aaaa so if it looks bad on my healer i should abandon my team so i dont get xp lose good idea:P
O well no lets see whats a better idea if it looks bad you should stay there and wipe with them? Pls don't make non sense comments of course if you are a healer and have to pick who to keep alive yourself or somebody else that can't rez or heal of course you are gonna pick yourself. Sometimes you need to strategically pull back and run so you can come back and rez people ya know....

Krag
12-20-2010, 04:31 AM
aaaa so if it looks bad on my healer i should abandon my team so i dont get xp lose good idea:P

I would take alive healer over a dead healer any time of the day.

natedogg729
12-20-2010, 11:57 AM
I kind of agree with a few exceptions.

First: Forceful deaths (ie Shroud P4) should not count as a death.

Second: The XP Loss used to be ONLY for the person that died not the party.

Third: You should not be allowed to De-level because of deaths. XP Loss should be limited to dropping you down to 0 XP gained in the current level that you are (it required X amount of XP to be level so XP should not go below X)

Fourth: If I am mistaken it used to be 5-10% of XP required to get your next rank.

Falco_Easts
12-20-2010, 10:49 PM
I understand your argument that you are being penalised for another persons play that you can't affect and want that removed. I don't agree with it but I understand it.

Would you then agree that the bonuses for other people's play that you can't affect should be removed as well? i.e. secret doors, traps etc... ?

Not being argumentative but if you are going to remove one for a reason, you should remove the other for the same reason.

Aussieee
12-21-2010, 01:50 AM
I understand your argument that you are being penalised for another persons play that you can't affect and want that removed. I don't agree with it but I understand it.

Would you then agree that the bonuses for other people's play that you can't affect should be removed as well? i.e. secret doors, traps etc... ?

Not being argumentative but if you are going to remove one for a reason, you should remove the other for the same reason.

The reason if to encourage people playing together and not penalizing them for doing so, your idea would in fact do that ..... removing the trap bonuses and secret doors hurts everyone.

Maybe I should bring a rogue along just because they would do traps and even if they die we stil get 5 % extra from the traps he would do:D......

Swedishchef
12-21-2010, 02:01 AM
Last I checked if someone else reenters the dungeon I only lose the 10% for that, the person in question however would lose more. If they die and I lose another 10% BONUS... I still make base xp, plus any bonuses I do manage to complete, plus my guildship buff, plus my voice of the master, plus any xp pots I may be running... I am still making more then the base xp of the dungeon and content. I could be wrong but this is also something that happens less then a pug shroud failing so I have no experience with it.

Now if I was in a lvl 11 quest and someone brought in a lvl 13+ that would be different, because its reducing the minimum I would recieve.

Its like you order an ice cream sunday with a cherry on top, but sometimes they give you 2 cherries, so you complain when you dont get 2 even though that 2nd one was a BONUS beyond what you were already getting.

Would you prefer they never give you 2 cherries again? Or would you rather sometimes get that extra treat?

Sounds like you enjoy having unskilled players in your grp m8, good to know someone on Thelanis is helping the less skilled, i´ll send them your way when i meet someone who need guidance.

callforkills
12-21-2010, 02:03 AM
I agree very much with this post.

shadowhop
12-21-2010, 02:47 AM
I disagree with the OP, because i believe that in a party based game the bonussen and penalties should apply to the whole party.

It can happen that you get in a group where people die unnecessary but it also happens that one party finishes faster than others(which also theoretically would cost XP if a party is slower).