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View Full Version : New feat for Rangers - Overdraw



Eistander
12-11-2010, 02:16 PM
Just like the title says, I think it's about time that ranged characters (bow users, but something similar can be worked out for others, I am sure) get something like Power Attack, but in turn impacts bow use.

I am thinking a 1:1 ratio, like PA, where it would be -1 to hit for each +1 damage, but impacting ranged weapons. This in turn would allow for better damage potential, as archers presently dont have any real means to boost their damage outside of merely boosting the strength stat.

Just my 2 copper.

Rav'n
12-11-2010, 02:20 PM
I think I like this idea! :D

DrNuegebauer
12-11-2010, 02:22 PM
/not signed.

The benefit of ranged combat is that you can run around kiting stuff and not getting hit.

Manyshot gives a perfectly good DPS boost for a bow user - but outside of manyshot the damage SHOULD be less - I can't see any logical reason why archers should get the same DPS, but with the benefit of running around and never getting hit...

I think if ya wanna use PAttack, then grab a couple of melee weapons and whack away!

sirdanile
12-11-2010, 02:47 PM
/not signed.

The benefit of ranged combat is that you can run around kiting stuff and not getting hit.

Manyshot gives a perfectly good DPS boost for a bow user - but outside of manyshot the damage SHOULD be less - I can't see any logical reason why archers should get the same DPS, but with the benefit of running around and never getting hit...

I think if ya wanna use PAttack, then grab a couple of melee weapons and whack away!

Outside of manyshot you're 4 times lower than a top tier melee, or 3 times lower than a decent melee.

I am for this change, although It would probably come along with an entire revision of ranged combat.

kaelis
12-11-2010, 02:51 PM
Didn't DDO europe have this feat? Always wondered why we didn't

Quarterling
12-11-2010, 03:33 PM
Didn't DDO europe have this feat? Always wondered why we didn't

Why would DDO EU get feats we don't when it's the same game? :D

Zeusknight
12-11-2010, 03:45 PM
I don't think there is such a feat in dnd rules that I can think of. Now I know that ddo is not dnd but even if you think about in real life you can only pull a longbow back so far. At least with power attack you can see the aspects as fighting you give up accuracy (bab) to hit harder. Archery is not like this. And yes I do have an AA but this feat in and of itself would not make sense. It was a good suggestion for as to ways of improving ranged combat.

Droconos
12-11-2010, 04:55 PM
Just speaking as a person who does archery as a hobby there is precedent for this to work. While it would correct to say that modern bows can't be overdrawn (compound bows) most ancient bows could. This issue is that it takes a large amount of strength to overdraw a bow. The difficulty of the draw does not increase in a linear fashion after you reach 28-30 inches (the point at which most bows are"trained" to draw to) so the feat in question would require more strength than power attack would.

The other portion is that overdrawing is dangerous for the archer. The bow could break and send splinters flying. Also the string is drawn beyond where you normally anchor for an arrow (chin, cheek or forward of the ear) and your positioning brings it closer to the body and as most medieval bows were 100+lbs (assuming combat ready) you run a real risk of ripping something off of your body.

Personally I am totally in favor of it so long as the chances of breakage, damage to self, and necessary strength are addressed.

tjaysteno
12-11-2010, 05:26 PM
Manyshot gives a perfectly good DPS boost for a bow user - but outside of manyshot the damage SHOULD be less - I can't see any logical reason why archers should get the same DPS, but with the benefit of running around and never getting hit...

No one is saying they should have the same DPS, but the way it stands now their DPS is so god-awful there's little reason to play a focused archer beyond flavor. Both ranged attack speed and damage are far below their melee peers. To put it into perspective, my max hit (on an lvl 20 AA geared and built from the core to do DPS) is about 130 on a crit. THF barbs can do that easily by level 3 or 4. There's something to be said for ratios like damage taken vs taken given, but honestly the way it's set up right now gives way too much to melee over ranged combat. Kiting, the only redeeming factor of ranged combat, can be done equally well by a pure AA and a pure Tempest.

About the OP's suggestion, I think it could help but that ends up being only 5 extra damage per shot (possibly 8 if they add enhancements to boost damage). The current problem is attack rate. I haven't done any tests, but I'd guess that a TWF Fighter with haste boost IV gets in about 5 or 6 hits in the time it takes an archer to fire once (outside of manyshot). The damage for a khopesh is higher than the damage for a longbow (due to crit range) and they have PA for which there is [currently] no ranged equivalent. The solution listed would remedy one of these facets, but would leave the others unfixed.

IMO, one solution would be to make Many Shot passive (you always shoot multiple arrows like the pnp feat), but possibly lower the attack rate. Melee still would have more strikes per minute and PA over ranged, but ranged combat is at least reasonable late game. Of course, like any update, this would take a couple of tries to get the balance right. But something definitely needs fixing. The current game has neither optimal gameplay or historical accuracy.

EDIT: Holy novel, Batman! Turns out this is something I'm passionate about.

dunklezhan
12-11-2010, 05:44 PM
The other portion is that overdrawing is dangerous for the archer. The bow could break and send splinters flying. Also the string is drawn beyond where you normally anchor for an arrow (chin, cheek or forward of the ear) and your positioning brings it closer to the body and as most medieval bows were 100+lbs (assuming combat ready) you run a real risk of ripping something off of your body.

Personally I am totally in favor of it so long as the chances of breakage, damage to self, and necessary strength are addressed.

I was going to say something like this, but I'm glad someone with actual archery experience said it.

I want to see ranged (generally. forget arcane archers for a sec) get a boost very much indeed, but this specific suggestion would need balancing as you suggest.

I'd say every shot you fire with overdraw on causes 1pt of damage to the durability of the weapon, and once it gets to Worn you can't use the ability at all until its repaired. That would be sufficiently detrimental I think. Especially if you turn it on and use manyshot....

Edit: and of course its not going to work on crossbows at all.

Edit edit: and I'd suggest min str requirement 15 for short bows, 16 for long bows. Anyone actually speccing for archery would probably have enough Str anyway of course because if they're not taking Bow Str they've probably not been paying attention.

Eistander
12-11-2010, 05:48 PM
/snip

About the OP's suggestion, I think it could help but that ends up being only 5 extra damage per shot (possibly 8 if they add enhancements to boost damage). The current problem is attack rate. I haven't done any tests, but I'd guess that a TWF Fighter with haste boost IV gets in about 5 or 6 hits in the time it takes an archer to fire once (outside of manyshot).

/snip

This section in particular is what I am mentioning, I laid out the initial idea, and am more or less trying to see the general consensus about possible options for when (more like if, these days) they do the ranged combat pass. Sure, we can fire as quick as we want to, but when the damage we do is a light as it is (outside manyshot of course), we need options to make it viable, without it becoming the only way to do things in the game.. so I presented the feat as a starting point, then perhaps going further from there.

Keep it coming, folks, dead horse or not, nothing will change unless we start somewhere, right?

dunklezhan
12-11-2010, 05:51 PM
It occurs to me that actually, Bow Strength already IS this. what other explanation for how Bow Str works is there except that you draw the bow further than a normal user would?

Musouka
12-11-2010, 05:52 PM
Personally I am totally in favor of it so long as the chances of breakage, damage to self, and necessary strength are addressed.

I agree to this too. However, like you said about damaging your flesh in this. If you activate Overdraw, it should in turn give a penalty to skills. Like listen, spot, search, balance, concentration, jump... etc. I'm not saying a huge penalty, but something around -2 to -5. As you're main focus in overdraw mode would be to pull the string back. It should in turn be something like a vicious weapon enhancement. So hurting yourself with each shot, like the death frenzy does.

The more I type about this, it would almost make a good enhancement for rangers than a feat. Perhaps something to add to the deepwood sniper.

That being said, this would make a good timed ability. Once expired, it could be something like rage and leave the character fatigued or exhausted.

Crazyfruit
12-11-2010, 05:59 PM
IMO, one solution would be to make Many Shot passive (you always shoot multiple arrows like the pnp feat), but possibly lower the attack rate.

Already ingame, as repeating crossbows.

Mechanic might be pretty imba if they ever fix that shots going poof bug.

BattleCircle
12-11-2010, 06:21 PM
I believe the OP is drawing from RL archery.

In RL Overdraw is using a bow equipped for a shorter arrow. Meaning you are able to use a shorter arrow than the draw length of the bow. A longer draw length equals more energy, a shorter arrow means less weight, more speed, and more accuracy.

That being said, I like the idea, but.

The same thing could be done by making power attack affect ranged weapons.

stille_nacht
12-11-2010, 06:34 PM
..... there is no need to argue any aspect of realism here...
in real life, arrows hit and kill in one shot, penetrating plate mail, swords do not.
In real life, getting hit by a sword while wearing robes spells certain death.
In real life, there are not swarms of meteors springing from people's hands, and there were, they would sure to a lot more than 1000 sword hits....
In real life, the "exhaustion" effect would set in after an hour of questing max.
In real life, when you try to wound a golem made of solid iron with a sword, your sword does nothing no matter what metal it is made of
In real life, strafing and running while firing is not a -4 penalty out of your total +25, it is a -40 penalty

Arguments should be made based on game mechanics. So, should archers get a version of the PA feat? i think so yes, but i am not very familiar with ranger dps :/

BattleCircle
12-11-2010, 06:43 PM
..... there is no need to argue any aspect of realism here...
in real life, arrows hit and kill in one shot, penetrating plate mail, swords do not.
In real life, getting hit by a sword while wearing robes spells certain death.
In real life, there are not swarms of meteors springing from people's hands, and there were, they would sure to a lot more than 1000 sword hits....
In real life, the "exhaustion" effect would set in after an hour of questing max.
In real life, when you try to wound a golem made of solid iron with a sword, your sword does nothing no matter what metal it is made of
In real life, strafing and running while firing is not a -4 penalty out of your total +25, it is a -40 penalty

Arguments should be made based on game mechanics. So, should archers get a version of the PA feat? i think so yes, but i am not very familiar with ranger dps :/

Dude! Don't get your panties in a twist. I was explaining the reasoning and nuances of overdraw and where the op is getting his idea.
Sheesh

Arkadios
12-11-2010, 06:48 PM
Just make a requirement for a certain base strength for it, wouldn't be too overpowed that way (base of like 25 or something).

Also i'm all for welsh 250 pound longbows :D

Orratti
12-11-2010, 07:47 PM
I'd rather see a RoF increase to match number of attacks of single weapon combat, as it should be. That would provide the correct dps for a range character and still without power attack would never match the dps of ANY melee character without the use of manyshot. I personally want to see ranged work correctly but don't want to see it overpowered. Considering that melee continues to gain more and more power now even at low levels I don't believe it is too much to ask.

Droconos
12-11-2010, 08:33 PM
Just make a requirement for a certain base strength for it, wouldn't be too overpowed that way (base of like 25 or something).

Also i'm all for welsh 250 pound longbows :D

Ah the welsh longbow. Warping bodies and battlefields since 900(ish)AD. The only equivalent of a handheld Arbelest. Half inch shafts weighing in at close to 4 pounds. I would love to see one of these in game with a min str requirement of 25ish. :)

As for a revamp of ranged combat, it would be nice to get a better attack speed out of it rather than just a jump in damage (very minor). Having Manyshot be a toggled stance rather than a short burst activation would be nice. -6 to hit for the feat, additional ap to be spent for extra arrows but lower to hit sounds about right, but there has already been several threads trying to address that issue...

Gorbadoc
12-12-2010, 12:03 AM
New feat for Rangers - Overdraw
Writing a check for more money than you have in your account? That sounds more like a rogue ability...


Just like the title says, I think it's about time that ranged characters (bow users, but something similar can be worked out for others, I am sure) get something like Power Attack, but in turn impacts bow use.
Oohhhh.


I am for this change, although It would probably come along with an entire revision of ranged combat.I'm trying to think of a downside to this.

Nothing springs to mind.

patang01
12-12-2010, 12:26 AM
I think the feat that lets you use the str bonus added to the ranged damage is that kind of 'overdraw'. Essentially you use your strength to pull the string further away. Note that the feat don't work with crossbows because you can't 'pull' the string.

Talias006
12-12-2010, 06:32 AM
The feat already in-game, Bow Strength, both is and is not what the OP is searching for to give archers the tiniest lift in terms of DPS. Rangers get it for free at 1st level, and if you want to get it you have to invest in at least 2 ranged feats, probably 3. But it's funny to see that one of the possible requirements for getting the feat actually is Power Attack. In essence, it is an improved version of a ranged PA, given that it gives the archer a damage add equal to their Str to all bow shots.

But, I think that what the OP is trying to address is the discrepancy between archery DPS in general that are between Manyshot cool-downs and virtually any tuned melee character. While a RoF increase will probably still be something they might add in the future to boost ranged/archery damage, just about any slight bump would be quite appreciated by much of the archer community.

Ravoc-DDO
12-12-2010, 06:33 AM
http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=276421

Alabore also made a nice description of overdraw there.

stille_nacht
12-12-2010, 09:47 AM
Dude! Don't get your panties in a twist. I was explaining the reasoning and nuances of overdraw and where the op is getting his idea.
Sheesh

no im fine with explaining that it exists :P, its just that it irritated me that some other people were arguing the finer points of archery and the design of modern bows

also, after looking into it, i think adding a PA type feat for rangers would be nice in game, because it would cause multi-shot to be a short term nuking mechanism, while having ranged damage matter more in quests, though still not nearly as much as melee damage.

ormsbygore
12-12-2010, 10:39 AM
I like the idea of giving archers an increase to DPS, outside of Manyshot. Strength requirement, maybey BAB requirement, and Bow Strength requirement, maybe another ranged oriented feat requirement. I really like the drawback of "chance to do durrability damage to weapon on attack" and "cannot use the weapon if it's worn".

/signed

IMO though, they should create a "Improved Manyshot" feat that fires less arrows per shot but is passive not active. Maybe the arrows per shot increases with BAB just like Manyshot, but inlesser numbers and greater intervals. Not a free feat to Rangers, and have a requirement of: Manyshot, BAB#, DEX#, ECT...

But I deffenatly like the idea of a Power Attack feat oriented for ranged combat.

~Nim