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bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 10:42 AM
NEW (Lammania Only): A bug that was causing Ice Storm's damage to scale improperly has been corrected. Ice Storm's damage dice has been set to "damage over time dice" and now does 3d6 blunt damage and 2d6 cold damage.

What do you mean with that term?

Eladrin
12-03-2010, 10:47 AM
NEW (Lammania Only): A bug that was causing Ice Storm's damage to scale improperly has been corrected. Ice Storm's damage dice has been set to "damage over time dice" and now does 3d6 blunt damage and 2d6 cold damage.

What do you mean with that term?
Unweighted dice.

Lingering damage over time effects in DDO generally use actual d6's (or whatever the die size is) rather than ones that skew high.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 11:01 AM
Unweighted dice.

Lingering damage over time effects in DDO generally use actual d6's (or whatever the die size is) rather than ones that skew high.

Wow. Ok, so what you're saying is that you gave us the idea that we'd have a great new spell when U8 was launched on Lamannia only to reduce it to near-useless by reducing the damage on it two-fold.

Good job. Guess I don't need to find a lvl 4 spell slot after all.

LunaCee
12-03-2010, 11:01 AM
So not only does it not have nice high damage for higher level characters, plus the fact it cannot be extended, but it now it has significantly lower minimum damage output. *sighs* Firewall is still the absolute king of all when it works then.

I believe you guys over-reacted and gave it the old triple swing with the nerf-bat when you only needed to smack it once.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 11:11 AM
Maths, assuming the unweighted dice are used on both:
Wall of Fire = 2d6 + 20/tick ~ 26/tick
Ice Storm = 2d6 + 3d6/tick ~ 17/tick

Most of the time, you'll be casting these with Empower, Maximize, Superior Potency, and 4 tiers of enhancements. Actual damage is Base * (Item + Enhancements + 1) * (1 + Metamagics)
So we're looking at these for numbers
WoF = 26 * 1.9 * 2.5 = 123
IS = 17 * 1.9 * 2.5 = 80

So, less total damage per tick from IS than WoF but can't be extended and doesn't have the pass-through damage. The ONLY thing that IS has going for it is that 60% of the damage is bludgeoning. And don't forget that FoM appears to be making mobs immune to it.

Congrats. You've nerfed the spell that you hoped to make better and turned it into a spell that fills a very small niche.

Samiusbot
12-03-2010, 11:20 AM
How much damage does a Wof do vs an orthon?
How much vs Harry, Sulu, etc?

How about Ice storm?

Some is more then 0 right?

LunaCee
12-03-2010, 11:21 AM
In order for IS to even begin to be worth slotting it needs to deal effectively twice as much damage as it will be with this change at level 20. IS cannot be extended, it does not have crossover damage, and it doesn't do double damage as a bonus to a enemy subtype beyond their natural weaknesses.

Personally I used superior inferno/freeze items for my math and came up with:
Ice Storm: 17.5*2.15*2.5 = ~94, Firewall: 27*2.15*2.5 = ~145

In other words Firewall does roughly half again as much damage before you take into account double damage versus undead and crossover damage, which puts it significantly over the top in comparison. The fact that extend works on one and not the other is just rubbing it in even further.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 11:30 AM
How much damage does a Wof do vs an orthon?
How much vs Harry, Sulu, etc?

How about Ice storm?

Some is more then 0 right?Enter the niche. Keep in mind that with such a low amount of cold damage being dealt and blocked by resistances that we're largely looking at the bludgeoning portion of the spell's damage here.
60% of 80 is 48. If I thought doing damage numbers like that were worthwhile, I would have kept Arcane Bolt/Blast in my build.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 11:33 AM
Wow. Ok, so what you're saying is that you gave us the idea that we'd have a great new spell when U8 was launched on Lamannia only to reduce it to near-useless by reducing the damage on it two-fold.

Good job. Guess I don't need to find a lvl 4 spell slot after all.

And neg-repped for voicing my concerns yet again. I guess people are happy to see nothing but firewalls when it comes to meaningful sustained caster DPS.

Schmoe
12-03-2010, 11:37 AM
Wow. Ok, so what you're saying is that you gave us the idea that we'd have a great new spell when U8 was launched on Lamannia only to reduce it to near-useless by reducing the damage on it two-fold.

Good job. Guess I don't need to find a lvl 4 spell slot after all.

Come on now, that's a bit of an overreaction. As a damage-over-time spell, WoF uses the same dice. I'd hardly call that useless, would you?

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 11:38 AM
Come on now, that's a bit of an overreaction. As a damage-over-time spell, WoF uses the same dice. I'd hardly call that useless, would you?

WoF gets +1/CL and passthrough damage. That's why it's useful.

Oh, it can also be extended.

Did you even look at the numbers to see where my (and others') concerns are coming from? Saying that it uses the same dice shows a lack of understanding of how the damage is being calculated. Yes, they both use DOT dice, but one of them progressively gets better as you increase in level while the other one stays the same no matter what level you're casting it at.

I'll admit that as it was when it was first updated and made a DOT that it was overpowered, but it didn't need to be reduced this much. As it stands, it's far too weak.

Schmoe
12-03-2010, 11:42 AM
Maths, assuming the unweighted dice are used on both:
Wall of Fire = 2d6 + 20/tick ~ 26/tick
Ice Storm = 2d6 + 3d6/tick ~ 17/tick


20th level isn't the only part of the game. Consider 10th level.

Wall of Fire = 2d6 + 10/tick ~ 17/tick
Ice Storm = 2d6 + 3d6/tick ~ 17/tick

Ice storm still gets double damage against fire-based creatures (many around), and bludgeoning damage bypasses all resistances/immunities. I assume the FoM interaction is a bug and will eventually be fixed. The decision to not allow Extend is a little confusing (per D&D SRD rules, Ice Storm is extendable), but it's not a deal breaker.

Schmoe
12-03-2010, 11:45 AM
WoF gets +1/CL and passthrough damage. That's why it's useful.

Oh, it can also be extended.

Did you even look at the numbers to see where my (and others') concerns are coming from?

You said...


Wow. Ok, so what you're saying is that you gave us the idea that we'd have a great new spell when U8 was launched on Lamannia only to reduce it to near-useless by reducing the damage on it two-fold.

Which implies the damage is doubly-reduced when compared to WoF. It's not. The difference between WoF and Ice Storm is the same after this revelation as it was before.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 11:54 AM
20th level isn't the only part of the game. Consider 10th level.

Wall of Fire = 2d6 + 10/tick ~ 17/tick
Ice Storm = 2d6 + 3d6/tick ~ 17/tick

Ice storm still gets double damage against fire-based creatures (many around), and bludgeoning damage bypasses all resistances/immunities. I assume the FoM interaction is a bug and will eventually be fixed. The decision to not allow Extend is a little confusing (per D&D SRD rules, Ice Storm is extendable), but it's not a deal breaker.

At 10th level there is also the Desert and the the Necropolis, both populated by undead. Change that 17 into a 34 for your comparison.
IS v Fire elementals and other ice vulnerable mobs only doubles the 2d6 damage, not the entire damage output. Change the 17 to a 23.
34 > 23, and that 34 keeps going for twice as long.

LunaCee
12-03-2010, 11:54 AM
Ice storm still gets double damage against fire-based creatures (many around)

Ice portion only, which is just 40% of the spell damage. The Ice and Bludgeoning damage are delivered in separate packets. And if we are making the comparison at 10th level the double damage versus undead is key selling point because at that level the arcane will be farming the heck out of Necro 2, Necro 3, Wiz King, and the Desert and Orchard explorer areas. Oh must not forget the various House J & Delera's side quests that can be done at that level either.

I'm sorry but Ice Storm still loses at that level in comparison to Firewall.

gurgar78
12-03-2010, 11:57 AM
The difference between WoF and Ice Storm is the same after this revelation as it was before.

I believe he was referring to the fact that the damage on icestorm was reduced when they removed the scaling and now has been reduced again by giving it unweighted dice.

Two-fold reduction.

finalf18
12-03-2010, 11:57 AM
Maths, assuming the unweighted dice are used on both:
Wall of Fire = 2d6 + 20/tick ~ 26/tick
Ice Storm = 2d6 + 3d6/tick ~ 17/tick

Most of the time, you'll be casting these with Empower, Maximize, Superior Potency, and 4 tiers of enhancements. Actual damage is Base * (Item + Enhancements + 1) * (1 + Metamagics)
So we're looking at these for numbers
WoF = 26 * 1.9 * 2.5 = 123
IS = 17 * 1.9 * 2.5 = 80

So, less total damage per tick from IS than WoF but can't be extended and doesn't have the pass-through damage. The ONLY thing that IS has going for it is that 60% of the damage is bludgeoning. And don't forget that FoM appears to be making mobs immune to it.

Congrats. You've nerfed the spell that you hoped to make better and turned it into a spell that fills a very small niche.

Prefix: I am not trying to get the final nail put in the coffin for Ice Storm so please don’t throw any hard objects

(Ducks and peers over the counter …)

Your math looks like it is applying the cold enhancements/amplifiers to both the cold part and the bludgeoning part of the spell. Is this the way that it is supposed to be working and working on lama now? (I have not tried as of the last “fix”). Depending on how the spell is treated the cold enhancements may impact the non-cold component of the spell (I can’t remember if fire enhancements affect both parts of flame strike).
If the bludgeoning part is not being impacted by the cold enhancements and needs Potency as an item amplifier then your numbers for Ice Storm should be even lower.

(Resumes ducking behind counter...)

Missing_Minds
12-03-2010, 11:57 AM
edit: removed because I was dumb.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 11:59 AM
You said...



Which implies the damage is doubly-reduced when compared to WoF. It's not. The difference between WoF and Ice Storm is the same after this revelation as it was before.

WoF = 25sp + 15 + 25 + 10 = 75SP (Emp, Max, Entend), 1 minute
IS = 25sp + 15 + 25 = 65SP (Emp, Max) 30 seconds

WoF damage = 123 * 29 ticks = 3,567 damage to a single target
IS damage = 80 * 14 ticks = 1,120 damage to a single target

WoF efficiency = 3567/75 = 47.56 Damage/SP
IS efficiency = 1120/65 = 17.23 Damage/SP

So, as you can see, WoF is not just twice, but almost 3(!) times more SP efficient as Ice Storm is in this current incarnation.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 12:00 PM
Prefix: I am not trying to get the final nail put in the coffin for Ice Storm so please don’t throw any hard objects

(Ducks and peers over the counter …)

Your math looks like it is applying the cold enhancements/amplifiers to both the cold part and the bludgeoning part of the spell. Is this the way that it is supposed to be working and working on lama now? (I have not tried as of the last “fix”). Depending on how the spell is treated the cold enhancements may impact the non-cold component of the spell (I can’t remember if fire enhancements affect both parts of flame strike).
If the bludgeoning part is not being impacted by the cold enhancements and needs Potency as an item amplifier then your numbers for Ice Storm should be even lower.

(Resumes ducking behind counter...)
Well, Meteor Swarm has always applied the fire enhancements (and Inferno clickies) to the bludgeoning portion of the spell. I don't see why they'd change IS so that it wasn't.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 12:05 PM
I believe he was referring to the fact that the damage on icestorm was reduced when they removed the scaling and now has been reduced again by giving it unweighted dice.

Two-fold reduction.
Yes, thank you. That is what I was trying to say.

hityawithastick
12-03-2010, 12:06 PM
I'd like to point out that I was running around on Khyber using Wall of Ice and it was quite effective against orthons and breezykillrawrs. The untyped 'bludgeoning' damage hits fully, and the ice damage is reduced by about 10-15. In My Humble Opinion, the longer-duration ice storm will be a good alternative to WoF, especially while running around the Vale.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 12:08 PM
I'd like to point out that I was running around on Khyber using Wall of Ice and it was quite effective against orthons and breezykillrawrs. The untyped 'bludgeoning' damage hits fully, and the ice damage is reduced by about 10-15. In My Humble Opinion, the longer-duration ice storm will be a good alternative to WoF, especially while running around the Vale.
I believe that even on live it still gives +1/CL to both the ice and bludgeoning damage.

Schmoe
12-03-2010, 12:11 PM
So, as you can see, WoF is not just twice, but almost 3(!) times more SP efficient as Ice Storm is in this current incarnation.

Sure, I'm not contesting that. The revelation that damage-over-time spells use standard dice also didn't change that.

Look, every spell is a niche spell, it's just a matter of how small the niche is. I definitely understand the points about WoF with undead quests (and there are a LOT of undead quests). The problem is that making a spell that competes with WoF against undead content would require it to be overpowered in other content. You can't really use the undead quests as a basis around which to balance a spell.

In your calculations, if you remove extend from the equation, the comparison is

WoF 26 damage/sp
IS 17 damage/sp

That's still close enough that IS would be useful as a niche spell. I think all the devs really need to do is make IS extendable. But it hasn't been extendable from the beginning, so the assessment of Ice Storm's value only changes based on the removal of per level scaling, not the change in damage dice or anything else, which was my original point.

finalf18
12-03-2010, 12:12 PM
Well, Meteor Swarm has always applied the fire enhancements (and Inferno clickies) to the bludgeoning portion of the spell. I don't see why they'd change IS so that it wasn't.

Thats a relief.

Side Note: Meteor Swarm has always applied the fire enhancements? Go figure. I have been using it for over a year and never noticed. O well, my next toon shall be named Mr Magoo.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 12:16 PM
Sure, I'm not contesting that. The revelation that damage-over-time spells use standard dice also didn't change that.

Look, every spell is a niche spell, it's just a matter of how small the niche is. I definitely understand the points about WoF with undead quests (and there are a LOT of undead quests). The problem is that making a spell that competes with WoF against undead content would require it to be overpowered in other content. You can't really use the undead quests as a basis around which to balance a spell.

In your calculations, if you remove extend from the equation, the comparison is

WoF 26 damage/sp
IS 17 damage/sp

That's still close enough that IS would be useful as a niche spell. I think all the devs really need to do is make IS extendable. But it hasn't been extendable from the beginning, so the assessment of Ice Storm's value only changes based on the removal of per level scaling, not the change in damage dice or anything else, which was my original point.

The only reason the I brought up the undead quest with firewall is because you brought up the use of IS against fire monsters at lvl 10.

I'm not interested in making IS compete with WoF when WoF is used against undead. I just want it to compete with WoF on normal damage. I couldn't care less if there was a "IS deals double damage to X type" clause. I would just like for it to be in the ballpark. Sadly, it really isn't.

Also, do people cast WoF without extend? Hell, I don't think I've ever turned the feat off.

gurgar78
12-03-2010, 12:17 PM
Sure, I'm not contesting that. The revelation that damage-over-time spells use standard dice also didn't change that.

Look, every spell is a niche spell, it's just a matter of how small the niche is. I definitely understand the points about WoF with undead quests (and there are a LOT of undead quests). The problem is that making a spell that competes with WoF against undead content would require it to be overpowered in other content. You can't really use the undead quests as a basis around which to balance a spell.

In your calculations, if you remove extend from the equation, the comparison is

WoF 26 damage/sp
IS 17 damage/sp

That's still close enough that IS would be useful as a niche spell. I think all the devs really need to do is make IS extendable. But it hasn't been extendable from the beginning, so the assessment of Ice Storm's value only changes based on the removal of per level scaling, not the change in damage dice or anything else, which was my original point.

5d6 has a significantly different average output than 5d3+15. The value of the spell was reduced. It can still be used to fill the same niche it would have been used for anyway, but it will be less effective at doing so.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 12:19 PM
Thats a relief.

Side Note: Meteor Swarm has always applied the fire enhancements? Go figure. I have been using it for over a year and never noticed. O well, my next toon shall be named Mr Magoo.
Yup. When the change was first announced and people were speculating that the bludgeoning damage wouldn't be modified by enhancements, I broke out MS and tested. With only the fire/ice enhancements modifying my damage, I was geting a minimum of 12 damage from the bludgeoning portion.

morrok73
12-03-2010, 12:20 PM
Not complaining but even with a sup pot item and a major ice lore item the damage is too low to warrant a spell slot.Just an opinion :).

Schmoe
12-03-2010, 12:27 PM
The only reason the I brought up the undead quest with firewall is because you brought up the use of IS against fire monsters at lvl 10.

I guess I was just trying to point out that there are niches for the spell to excel in, even if the niches aren't as large as that of WoF.


I'm not interested in making IS compete with WoF when WoF is used against undead. I just want it to compete with WoF on normal damage. I couldn't care less if there was a "IS deals double damage to X type" clause. I would just like for it to be in the ballpark. Sadly, it really isn't.

Well, against a standard dude with no special resistances or weaknesses, WoF trumps IS every time. You can go one of two ways - make IS trump WoF in standard circumstances and WoF better situationally, or vice versa. It seems the devs want WoF to be better in standard circumstances and IS better situationally. That's the way it stands now. As long as it's not completely worthless outside of those special circumstances, I think it's fine.

The way I see it, the last condition is the contentious part. Looking at the numbers, I agree that it's currently bordering on being completely worthless in normal situations. Make it extendable, and it seems fine to me.


Also, do people cast WoF without extend? Hell, I don't think I've ever turned the feat off.

All the time. In fact, I rarely turn it on, as most things seem to be dead well before the un-extended WoF wears out.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 12:34 PM
As long as it's not completely worthless outside of those special circumstances, I think it's fine.

The way I see it, the last condition is the contentious part. Looking at the numbers, I agree that it's currently bordering on being completely worthless in normal situations.

That's just it. It's so weak that it's just not worth using in place of WoF unless the mobs are fire-immune. Extend would help, but only just.

Jiipster
12-03-2010, 12:35 PM
Another thing to note is that the Cold-damage part and the Bludgeoning-damage part are counted as two different spells, meaning separate crit-rolls. You'll be seeing a lot of crits with this spell.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 12:38 PM
Another thing to note is that the Cold-damage part and the Bludgeoning-damage part are counted as two different spells, meaning separate crit-rolls. You'll be seeing a lot of crits with this spell.

You'll see about as many IS crit-ticks as you will on an extended WoF.

Jiipster
12-03-2010, 12:41 PM
You'll see about as many IS crit-ticks as you will on an extended WoF.

True, but in half the time.

BruxaDo71
12-03-2010, 01:13 PM
I am disappointed.

The cost/benefit is too low in comparison with WoF. Here another points to consider:
* Bludgeon damage is unaffected by enhancements.
* There is a delay between when you cast and the first tick.
* Lot of monster have ice resist, what make spells "tick-based" less effective.
* Noobs will complain about the "lag" if you cast on a boss.

IMO, Ice Storm will be a secondary spell used only on rare occasions.

gurgar78
12-03-2010, 01:16 PM
True, but in half the time.

And?

Your crit rate is the same for both spells which means that the average increase in spell damage is the same for both spells. Twice as many crits for half the damage works out to the same amount of added damage. Unless you have some kind of effect that produces a bonus whenever you crit with a spell, there is absolutely no advantage for Icestorm to produce more crits.

LunaCee
12-03-2010, 01:19 PM
Firewall:
~145 Normal
~399 Critical
~196 Average Damage

Icestorm:
~38 Ice Normal
~56 Bludgeon Normal
~94 Normal Combined
~103 Ice Critical
~155 Bludgeon Critical
~258 Critical Combined
~51 Ice Average
~76 Bludgeon Average
~127 Average Damage

Oh look... Firewall is *still* about 50% ahead in pure damage alone. So what if it gets twice as many critical ticks during a certain time frame. The damage is *split* and both sides will get the same average number of critical hits. Even more important is the fact that the ice damage is low enough that one will usually see at least half of it eaten by resists. That lowers it total actual effective damage a fair amount.

bradleyforrest
12-03-2010, 01:25 PM
* Bludgeon damage is unaffected by enhancements.
This is false. That said, it's still too low on the damage front.

Talltale-Storyteller
12-03-2010, 02:35 PM
Reroll.






:D J/k.

sirgog
12-03-2010, 04:46 PM
/sigh.


With the loaded dice and no caster level scaling, it was just worth casting in a few situations at high level. Now it isn't. Damage per mana against a 30 cold resist boss is almost identical to Polar Ray.

Prior to the 'honest dice' this spell was worth casting. Now, the only times I can see myself preparing it on a Wizard beyond level 12 or so are for the fire bats in VoD.

Jiipster
12-03-2010, 06:51 PM
And?

Your crit rate is the same for both spells which means that the average increase in spell damage is the same for both spells. Twice as many crits for half the damage works out to the same amount of added damage. Unless you have some kind of effect that produces a bonus whenever you crit with a spell, there is absolutely no advantage for Icestorm to produce more crits.

Non-epic trash will die faster, since your damage output will be more frontloaded.

QuantumFX
12-03-2010, 07:21 PM
I believe you guys over-reacted and gave it the old triple swing with the nerf-bat when you only needed to smack it once.

Actually it was 100% main hand, 80% off-hand and 10% double-strike.

gk_zone
12-03-2010, 10:58 PM
I'd just like to echo the other sentiments about the reduction to damage going to far the other way. I think it was a bit overpowered, but now it isn't on par with Wall of Fire. I don't know if that was the intention or not.

As far as not allowing the spell to be extended; that just makes zero sense. I can't think of a legitimate reason not to allow it to be extended. With the bludgeon damage it can help beat down a portal. It was about the only viable means to do so without spending all of your spell points. Now if my sorc runs into a portal it will take around 200 more sp to do what a couple of extends would have cost.

Stanley_Nicholas
12-04-2010, 02:00 AM
Non-epic trash will die faster, since your damage output will be more frontloaded.

Not really, because ice storm still deals much less average damage per tick. Both spells get an equal percentage augment due to crits, but the more-frequent crits from icestorm will be offset by the fact that they will also be smaller crits. Wall of fire will remain the better choice in every case where it's usable, even against non-epic trash.

LunaCee
12-04-2010, 07:26 PM
Given the near unanimous vocal outcry from actual casters that this so called new and improved icestorm is anything but... can a Dev please stop in and say whether or not they are able to nudge the powers that be to at least bring this within shouting distance of Firewall? (Which in my opinion would be 80-85% average output of firewall) Otherwise this spell is pretty much doomed to be effectively a waste. Not quite as bad as Deep Slumber, but close enough.

Melee complain when the effectiveness of one style is a mere 10% behind another. We casters are complaining when the spell that is supposed to be competition for another is a full 50% behind. That large an effectiveness gap and we cannot help but look at it and pretty much write off the spell as not worth slotting in.

Arlith
12-04-2010, 08:00 PM
O well, my next toon shall be named Mr Magoo.

Been done. Forced rename for copyright reasons.

ChaosEmperorDragon
12-04-2010, 09:09 PM
Unweighted dice.

Lingering damage over time effects in DDO generally use actual d6's (or whatever the die size is) rather than ones that skew high.

I'm noob and stumbled across this post. Excuse me for asking but does this mean that normal dice in DDO are weighted to roll higher than expected?

Depravity
12-04-2010, 09:49 PM
I'm noob and stumbled across this post. Excuse me for asking but does this mean that normal dice in DDO are weighted to roll higher than expected?

Yes, in the case of magical damage. Those dice usually do half their damage, plus a random amount of the rest. So a 6 sided die (d6 from here on out), would do 3 points, plus another 1-3, for an actual range of 4-6 damage. A d8 would be 4+(1-4) for 5-8 damage. It pushes the average up and the variance down, so magic damage is a bit more reliable and rewarding.

Most other dice are the full range, so a d6 from sneak attack would be 1-6 damage, or the d10 on a weapon would be 1-10, etc.

kyebosh
12-05-2010, 08:39 PM
Unweighted dice.

Wait... There are weighted dice implemented live?
Seriously?
No, you're kidding right?

toughguyjoe
12-06-2010, 01:48 AM
Wait... There are weighted dice implemented live?
Seriously?
No, you're kidding right?

Please read the thread before posting.

Magical Damage that is not DOT normally operates on Weighted Dice.

Example: Fireball does Xd6 based on caster level. In DDO it does Xd3+x(3). For a tenth level caster this figures out to 10d3+30. This is largely to make up for the limited number of castings spell casters have between shrines. More bang for their buck, since a physical damage dealer never runs out of bang.

Myrdinn
12-06-2010, 09:45 AM
The IS spell is not even worth slotting now. That is all there is to say about it.

5 slot for a wizard (ddoor, fireshield, death aura, neg energy burst, fw for my PM)
4 slot for a sorc (ddoor, fireshield, fw, stoneskin or solid fog)

The only caster that COULD slot the spell would be an archmage wizard.

So the question is not that it is situational (which is now VERY VERY situational), but that its not worth casting anymore. With max, emp, eardweller (which give 100% boost), I do 50-60 on orthon per tick on bludgeon part and 0 on ice part. Why would I cast it on them when melee down them in 10 seconds... By the time the storm appear, they are dead...

Against Harry, I will just polar ray and use all my neg energy spell on him... still no use

Portal... I do more dmg with a gs greataxe as a 20 wiz and 10 str than with this spell...

Let it like that, no one gonna use it.

Double the dmg and its gonna become interesting.

Torebro
12-08-2010, 08:49 AM
Right now there is only one situation where this spell is probably the best choice: Epic Golems (when you have to kill them)

In all other situation, other spells SLAs are a lot better:

Non-Epic Golems:
(Web +) Smiting Weapon is faster better and more cost efficient than Ice Storm

Fire Resistant Mobs:
Firewall is still better than Ice Storm (even when it only deals halve the normal damage, due to the X-over)

Enemies who get extra damage from Cold:
Cone of Cold and Freezing Sphere are better (direct damage, loaded dice, faster)

Fire Immune Mobs:
Beside CC Spells, InstaKill Spells and SLAs, Cone of Cold is still better than this one, because you kill them in a few Shots, rather than watching them for the next minutes, slowly getting killed and having to re-cast Haste/Displacement after each fight (might be worth it against blackbones).

Portals:
PM chain Spamming the Necro SLAs (Portals aren't immune anymore)
AM Any weapon with (greater) construct bane

Bosses (Harry, etc):
PM: see portals
AM: Casting one more haste (because 1 mediocre DPS didn't get the first one) is 10 times more efficient, SLA's if you have them

gurgar78
12-08-2010, 10:55 AM
Portals:
PM chain Spamming the Necro SLAs (Portals aren't immune anymore)
AM Any weapon with (greater) construct bane

Bosses (Harry, etc):
PM: see portals
AM: Casting one more haste (because 1 mediocre DPS didn't get the first one) is 10 times more efficient, SLA's if you have them

FWIW, these two situations have fights lasting long enough that you could throw an Ice Storm in addition to the actions you suggest. It doesn't have to be one or the other.