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View Full Version : let more than one mage join Tower of Despair raid group



IanYang
11-23-2010, 10:55 AM
A Tower of Despair raid group only let one experienced mage who can kite join the group. This usually result in zero chance for many newbie mages to run this raid.

I cannot figureout why TOD group only need one mage. Many high level raid groups such as The Shroud, VOD and HOX let two or even three mages join.

Is there a way to improve the content of TOD so that more than one mage can join the group?

NinjaNeed
11-23-2010, 11:00 AM
This problem is not only a mage problem.

Alot of raid groups only take one rogue (despite the massive dps a good rogue can bring). I never see a raid with more than one bard.

Basically, the reason most people dont want more than one rogue is because they are considered squishy, 400hp with no damage reduction worth mentioning. Same with bards and mages.

A player can not do any dps when dead.

(Note: I disagree with this approach, but it is what I understand to be the general thing)

Phidius
11-23-2010, 11:05 AM
Many leaders form their raid groups to get the raid done as quickly as possible... probably because the raid isn't fun anymore, and they just want to get it over with.

The best solution is to form your own groups, and take as many of [insert class here] that you want.

k1ngp1n
11-23-2010, 11:09 AM
It's complicated. And it depends.

Personally, if I know a person, I'll let them run regardless of what class they play. But I build ridiculous parties sometimes. ToD normal is hardly challenging, IMO, and ToD elite is not much worse... provided the people involved are at least modestly informed and properly geared.

If I don't know you (figuratively speaking) I'll take a melee over a caster simply because I am more confident in a random melee's ability to contribute (too many casters don't dump SP, or, if they do they do it at the wrong time.)

Samadhi
11-23-2010, 11:17 AM
I prefer 2 mages instead of 1 for an "ideal" group TBH. But long story short, there are a lot of people playing this game, and under 3% even seem to have a clue of the basics of the game. It is pretty sad. Despite all of the dumbing-down that this game has gone through, it has actually become harder to play over the last year IMO, due to the inability to find the few that do have a clue.

I used to rec. just /squelch and move on - but see my sig for why that is no longer an option :(

KannyaAryien
11-23-2010, 11:19 AM
Lol I usually take 2 or more casters into ToD with me, don't mind rogues/bards so long as they aren't super squishy.

xTethx
11-23-2010, 11:26 AM
I usually dont take any casters in ToD. What a waste. But if a caster joins the lfm i accept, if another joins i accept, thats just me tho.

~Tago_Bane
11-23-2010, 12:33 PM
Really a casters main function in TOD is Recon WF tank on Judge drop cloud for concealment provide haste/arcane buffs, maybe hunt eles.

Main function in Part 2 Kite shadows (a back up kiter FTW IMO), provide arcane buffs.

Part 3 Recon the WF tank, Waves Horoth, Drop cloud for concealment provide Arcane Buffs.

If there is no WF tank you can see how one caster could more than handle the casting duties of the Raid and the only reall good reason to have a second caster would be Back up kiting (very good reason imo) beyond that you're gonna have Dead weight in your group. You could throw your SP at sully but by the time you dump it the fight would already be won, or if you dump it early then you're gonna be twiddling your thumbs for the rest of the raid (unless you're rich on pots).

That being said If I was on my healer I would take more than 3 casters just cause I know I can roll and get us through, but if I was on a DPS toon with unknown healers in the party I would be a little more cautious about the balance of my party.

grodon9999
11-23-2010, 12:42 PM
I love taking rogues in ToD. Do a ton of damage and won't steal aggro if they were smart about their threat reduction (my guildies are).

Regarding the OP's question, we take multiple mages when we have guildies who need to be trained and have even done "part 1 chest farming" runs so people can learn. it's just the reality the you don't need more than one arcane caster (we've done it with one 1 healer several times) and the more DPS-apes you have the faster and easier it is.

sweez
11-23-2010, 12:45 PM
One arcane is plenty to exhaust/CK the pit fiends. You don't really need them for much more in either ToD, or for example Shroud (and you don't really need them even for that in most cases).

Not saying that it's "right" or "wrong" to take one and only one arcane in these raids, just saying I understand why people hesitate to take more than one.

Kriogen
11-23-2010, 12:55 PM
I understand you, but will say /notsigned.

I'd like *new* high level raids. I'm fine if some quests favor melee's as long as there are also quests that favor casters. Gimme 'Horoth strikes back' and maybe 'The return of Harry' that favors casters and i'll be happy.

Mostly I'd like *more*.

~Tago_Bane
11-23-2010, 02:29 PM
I'm fine if some quests favor melee's as long as there are also quests that favor casters.



Quests that favor casters? maybe lowbie quests but end game when is it prudent to take more than 2 casters? most cases 2 is one too many.

It's not the quest that's flawed its the base mechanic of Casters that's a bit off, though I don't see a solution to this except for giving casters more SP or an At-Will spell so they can fill a DPS role.

Rav'n
11-23-2010, 02:34 PM
We had 2 casters, 2 Bards, 2 Healers and 6 whatevers last night. Acutally the 2 Bards were concidered Whatever as well.

Whatever= Whatever you wanna bring.

Of course, Tab had us stop behind Tempest spine.... for um.... Buffs... first.

Lorz
11-23-2010, 02:55 PM
We had 2 casters, 2 Bards, 2 Healers and 6 whatevers last night. Acutally the 2 Bards were concidered Whatever as well.

Whatever= Whatever you wanna bring.

Of course, Tab had us stop behind Tempest spine.... for um.... Buffs... first.

Exactly...well except for that last bit.....:)

If you need certain builds and certain party make up....your a lot closer to failing than you think.

Those who can...dont care... it will get done.
Those who are barely hanging on....well they have to inspect weapons and builds and get just that perfect blend...or else...they will fail...and they probably fail sometimes with it perfect.

Either do or do not do....there is no fail.

/been running short for so long..im not sure what a balanced party would look like......
//and if i post SS/BYOH and you show up healing the party...im kicking you.... :)

Samadhi
11-23-2010, 03:09 PM
Quests that favor casters? maybe lowbie quests but end game when is it prudent to take more than 2 casters? most cases 2 is one too many.

It's not the quest that's flawed its the base mechanic of Casters that's a bit off, though I don't see a solution to this except for giving casters more SP or an At-Will spell so they can fill a DPS role.

Epic Chrono is an excellent example of how, IMO, casters can be excellent additions to the party. Make crowd control important to the success of the raid, and arcanes can easily get desirable again, in theory. The in practice part, is that so many arcanes are such poor players, that they can't handle even basic crowd control without a pocket healer, and they still fail, perpetuating the "should-have-taken-a-barb" stereotype.

The other solution is lower mob HP. As long as the raid bosses HP are low enough that the mob will die before the caster is dry (example: shroud), then their DPS profile is actually preferable to melees. Now, getting this information through to the general public, that still won't take casters into shrouds? I'll leave that to the PR people - cause nothing has destroyed my last scrap of hope that humanity is worth saving than PUGing in this game.

I do think the second option has at least some merit though. The key is to not trivialize the encounter while lowering mob HP. My longtime suggestion has been simple - increase mob offense. Right now, we almost exclusively fight mobs that are not very dangerous, but just have a billion HP, turning it into a battle of attrition. A more immediate battle is both more realistic, more true to pnp, and IMO makes for a more balanced and more exciting game.

TheDearLeader
11-23-2010, 03:10 PM
Too many non-DPS.

6 Barbs, 6 Fighters. If one of those *has* to be a rogue, monk, ranger, paladin, I guess we'll let it slide.

Only Barbs and Fighters can be DPS.

What? Hjealers? Hjaste? What things do you speak of?

*ding*

grodon9999
11-23-2010, 03:13 PM
EDIT: Nevermind, think I got it.

k1ngp1n
11-23-2010, 03:19 PM
The key is to not trivialize the encounter while lowering mob HP. My longtime suggestion has been simple - increase mob offense. Right now, we almost exclusively fight mobs that are not very dangerous, but just have a billion HP, turning it into a battle of attrition. A more immediate battle is both more realistic, more true to pnp, and IMO makes for a more balanced and more exciting game.

This is too good not to echo. Its really simple: making having the aggro of a boss something to be concerned about. Then, make it so tanking is more fun than 'Shield held high, intim 'til my blood runs dry!' Make the fight quick and furious, always on the edge of something going wrong. Make it so DPS is a byproduct of good play, not the other way around (as it is now.)

That is a raid I'd play did my eyes crusted over. The second Abbot fight always held this a little for me, but its not quite right. If he Infernos, and the wand-slave wasn't paying attention or "oops'd" there is little ability for players to heroically save the day.

grodon9999
11-23-2010, 03:26 PM
This is too good not to echo. Its really simple: making having the aggro of a boss something to be concerned about. Then, make it so tanking is more fun than 'Shield held high, intim 'til my blood runs dry!' Make the fight quick and furious, always on the edge of something going wrong. Make it so DPS is a byproduct of good play, not the other way around (as it is now.)

I like how you think but the devil is in the details, go on . . . how would you change ToD if you were content Czar?

One thing you could do is simply make the trash spawns more frequent and vicious, requiring more caster CC and/or some melees to help control them. Makes it more dynamic than the tank-n-spank we have now.

k1ngp1n
11-23-2010, 03:38 PM
I like how you think but the devil is in the details, go on . . . how would you change ToD if you were content Czar?

One thing you could do is simply make the trash spawns more frequent and vicious, requiring more caster CC and/or some melees to help control them. Makes it more dynamic than the tank-n-spank we have now.

Have intim work as a hate-generation booster, as well as the current shield block and punch it method, with it being impossible to perfectly lock down a boss with the active skill - only DPS can truly hold.

Increase the defensive capabilities of wielding a shield. Increase single target damage of the bosses.

ToD:

As you said, increase trash spawns so that they are essentially permanently out. CC'ing and not killing won't prevent more from coming in, and they give each other an increasing morale bonus to save vs. CC. (In other words, you have to kill rapidly or be overwhelmed.)

Sully should randomly teleport her target around the room with an aggro reset. Attacking immediately after the teleport causes her to actively AOE around her.

Give Horoth an attack sequence where he turns at random (with a cooldown) and cleaves with heavy damage the group behind. Have this effected (but not entirely controlled) by the rate of non-current aggro DPS. Increase the damage of his melee strikes, keep the badge where it is.

Drop the HP. Make it so the challenge isn't HOW much dps.... the challenge should be getting in there in the first place.

Nuckoholic
11-23-2010, 05:41 PM
Many leaders form their raid groups to get the raid done as quickly as possible... probably because the raid isn't fun anymore, and they just want to get it over with.

The best solution is to form your own groups, and take as many of [insert class here] that you want.

This is flawed logic from the leaders of those groups - I've seen waaay too many LFMs where the leader is waiting to get a group with 2 healers, 1 bard, and 1 caster max, because they want to get the raid done "quickly". The reality is that you are likely just wasting time and could have already finished the raid twice (with a so-called non optimal party) in the same amount of time that you have spent waiting.

You don't need an arcane caster for TOD. You don't need a divine caster for TOD. You don't need a bard for TOD. Of course, it is good to have at least two of the above listed but it doesn't mean you can't take 4 bards or 5 casters into the TOD either.

The point is, the game is not challenging enough such that you need a perfect group to finish any quest/raid in the game. Solid play and game knowledge by a few select people in the group is almost always enough.


But long story short, there are a lot of people playing this game, and under 3% even seem to have a clue of the basics of the game.

It might be less than 3%...

CavernDragon
11-23-2010, 06:16 PM
All Wizzy PM or WF soc TOD. and if you dont think it can be done. think again.

MysteryNotes
11-23-2010, 07:28 PM
A Tower of Despair raid group only let one experienced mage who can kite join the group. This usually result in zero chance for many newbie mages to run this raid.

I cannot figureout why TOD group only need one mage. Many high level raid groups such as The Shroud, VOD and HOX let two or even three mages join.

Is there a way to improve the content of TOD so that more than one mage can join the group?


It took me 2 months to even try and apply for a tod group, and then my first time in, i failed at kiting.
Stayed away from TOD for a couple more months after lol

Thankfully i got the hang of kiting and now almost never fail :p

Phidius
11-24-2010, 09:28 AM
...
The point is, the game is not challenging enough such that you need a perfect group to finish any quest/raid in the game. Solid play and game knowledge by a few select people in the group is almost always enough.
...

Agreed - it's a lot easier to take the first people who request to join when you've got a solid core of friends in the group already.

It's a real gamble when you're alone, so I make sure to include "may wipe" with "taking first 11 to click"