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Jrstevenson07
11-19-2010, 08:21 AM
They should work out in one of the next few updates a damage count that goes along with kill count. I think it would make it easier to tell exactly who is slacking off in a party, maybe even enable a player to see if they need to make some character adjustments.

Dont know if it would be idfficult, but i wouldnt mind a healing damage count either.

DragonMageT
11-19-2010, 08:30 AM
/not signed

Just another meaningless number.

Kill count is not reliable and you somehow think a damage count # will be.
It would just tell you that player A hit x number of monsters....means nothing.

Doesn't give you any real information about how much damage player A is actually doing.

If you really want to look at how to adjust your character concerning damage, just look in the
combat log or look at the screen for the damage numbers flying by, then adjust accordingly.

Vellrad
11-19-2010, 08:33 AM
/not signed

Just another meaningless number.

Kill count is not reliable and you somehow think a damage count # will be.
It would just tell you that player A hit x number of monsters....means nothing.

Doesn't give you any real information about how much damage player A is actually doing.

If you really want to look at how to adjust your character concerning damage, just look in the
combat log or look at the screen for the damage numbers flying by, then adjust accordingly.

I think damage counter he says about should be telling how many damage player A dealt to mobs in quest.

dunklezhan
11-19-2010, 08:34 AM
They should work out in one of the next few updates a damage count that goes along with kill count. I think it would make it easier to tell exactly who is slacking off in a party, maybe even enable a player to see if they need to make some character adjustments.

Dont know if it would be idfficult, but i wouldnt mind a healing damage count either.

See, the wording of your post demonstrates exactly why this is a bad idea. If you'd said "I think it would make it easier to enable a player to see if they need to make some character adjustments, or even to tell exactly who is slacking off in a party" then I might have more sympathy for this request (which has been made before).

Trouble is, the focus on this sort of suggestion is always on seeing who is 'slacking off' first, before all other considerations.

Not only is the phrase itself a very negative way of putting it which prejudices all further comment as a result but it also completely ignores those who don't do damage or healing as a primary focus (CCers is mostly what I'm thinking about but a full on intimitank might well expect to see themselves not far from the bottom of the damage & kill chart despite being melee). Nothing is ever going to be a fully comprehensive report that covers all valid playstyles and approaches, and so the devs shouldn't put time into it.

Far better though, would be the ability to parse the combat log so the community could develop its own tools, which people could choose to use or not depending on their role. That way the focus really could be for self improvement purposes, not unrealistically and in blanket-fashion criticising others.

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 08:36 AM
Actually, a total damage count would be the ONLY thing that matters.

Who snuck in a last hit means nothing.

Not to say if the numbers are lopsided well to one person, you know whose doing all the damage.

DragonMageT
11-19-2010, 08:37 AM
I think damage counter he says about should be telling how many damage player A dealt to mobs in quest.

then that would be like a DPS meter, there is a current thread about such a thing. Comparing it to WOW's DPS meter system.

If that is what the OP was actually taking about, either way, it's bad.

articwarrior
11-19-2010, 08:38 AM
/not signed

although this would be nice to see, it would cause too much lag and be hard to implement, not to mention somewhat pointless

sweez
11-19-2010, 08:40 AM
My suggestion: just remove the kill-count-per-toon altogether. We should be able to see how many monsters were killed total for the purposes of knowing how close we are to conquest etc., but other than that it serves no purpose whatsoever, other than epeen measuring, which is no purpose whatsoever.

Knowing how much damage you do isn't all that hard if you know your build and which gear you'll use, knowing how much damage someone else does is the last thing this game needs.

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 08:40 AM
then that would be like a DPS meter, there is a current thread about such a thing. Comparing it to WOW's DPS meter system.

If that is what the OP was actually taking about, either way, it's bad.

Total damage count is nothing like DPS meter.

It's actually the only number that would matter...it should replace kill count.

If you play WoW, you would know there's a dps meter, AND a total damage meter. Separate things there.

Vellrad
11-19-2010, 08:43 AM
And if we're alking about CC I think that damage done to held mobs should go into caster's account. If not them, there would be 10 times less critics :)

Cauthey
11-19-2010, 08:54 AM
I was actually hoping for this kind of a feature to be added. Not to see who's slacking off, but more for bragging rights.

Statistics are awesome, and are always interesting. I'd love to see this, especially for casters and rogues where they might not win the killing blow, but they contribute piles of damage to enemies throughout the quest.

Ciaran
11-19-2010, 08:55 AM
Far better though, would be the ability to parse the combat log so the community could develop its own tools, which people could choose to use or not depending on their role. That way the focus really could be for self improvement purposes, not unrealistically and in blanket-fashion criticising others.

Agreed. This was a great tool for adjusting builds and testing feats in AoC. Also, used correctly in the right group of people, it can help other players improve if they so desire.

For example, in AoC I spent a lot of time and effort tweaking my Barb's build and testing the different feats. Some had misleading descriptions or wound up being more lackluster than they sounded. I found the ability to record and parse the combat log to be crucial in improving my Barb's performance in quests and raids.

Here's an example of what the tool looked like:
http://media.curse.com/Curse.Projects.ProjectImages/6808/10072/ConanStats_Stats_v6.png

You could post the results in chat and people could pull up a window that showed damage done, healing done, damage taken, deaths, etc, etc. I personally helped a lot of other Barbarians in the guild I was in improve their build by using combat log parsers and similarly saw our main tanks help the off tanks improve. They would look at the parsers and ask how they could be in the top 3-5 DPS or, for the tanks, top damage taken.

The way the tool is used is up to the person. Yes, it can be abused by elitist jerks (or more precisely, noobs as Quikster pointed out in the other thread similar to this) but it can be just for fun and for self-improvement. In the guilds I was in, at least, if you were at raid and followed directions and didn't do anything dumb, you were contributing. The tool was never used to discriminate against who could come and who couldn't or who was entitled to roll on loot and who wasn't. Did it get used like that by others? Certainly, but it was less prevalent than you'd think; doing stuff like that tends to give you a bad name quickly.

Of course, it was also used for bragging rights and friendly competition. Some of the best times I had in AoC were close races in DPS with other DPS classes where we were laughing, cutting up but trying really hard to best each other. That kind of thing really improves your play as well.

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 09:00 AM
I'd go even further and say someone should have a sort of percentage number you can see when they click your lfm.

Lets say for a barbarian, a game mechanic tallies amount of damage taken, as opposed to mobs killed, damage dealt. It would tally damage differently too, depending on boss mobs or trash mobs. Then, it'll affix a percentage of how effective you were in each quest...and keep it stored.

We'll call it 'worthiness rating'

Your WR will tell all that is needed before you even get accepted into a group.

If you run Kobold Assault as your first quest on a character, and you come away with 20 kills, took 50% of the damage on a barbarian, your WR would fall below 5% or so. The only way to get it up would be to perform. If your gimp and can't perform...you'll just have to reroll or solo...

alright...crucifixion time.

DragonMageT
11-19-2010, 09:03 AM
Total damage count is nothing like DPS meter.

It's actually the only number that would matter...it should replace kill count.

If you play WoW, you would know there's a dps meter, AND a total damage meter. Separate things there.

Really ? any number that would give total damage would be used as a meter to gauge others DPS.
Thus becoming a "DPS Meter".

Let me give you an example...Shroud Part 5, beat down on Harry. People could click on the XP page and then see somewhat real time damage updates. It then would become a DPS meter. I know what they started with, I see the numbers updating....sounds like a DPS Meter to me. I may have to close the window and then re-click it again to see updates but either way...it becomes a DPS Meter.

And kill count should stay and not be replaced, it's used to determine XP bonuses.
It could be replaced with just total kills for the party and not list individual results.

Jrstevenson07
11-19-2010, 09:08 AM
Seems like there has been a bit of confusion:

I'm talking about a damage count. Not a kill count. As many have said already, the last hit wins the kill count and doesnt necesarily mean much.

I'm not talking about a DPS meter. Dont play WOW but from what i gather, the game tells you your range of damage per second. This suggestion is for a total tally of damage done per quest.

I see how my OP may have set some people on edge (it was early, i was tired, the alien abduction was rough but back on topic) so to clarify, I think this would be helpful for a lot of reasons. finding out where your DPS falls in a party isnt necesarily a bad thing. MYDDO isnt a bad thing. People just find ways to use good things to be jerks.

I know not everyone would be affected by this (intim, caster, healer) but i dont see why a healers numbers cant calculated as well? I think that would even be helpful to a party. No healer here has been cursed at for 'bad heals' even when some zerger decided to get surrounded by every orthon in amrath?

I apreciate everyones input, just wanted to clear up a few misconceptions i saw.

flynnjsw
11-19-2010, 09:12 AM
I would be fine with any of these as long it was viewable by the user only. If not, it will end up no better than MyDDO, or the "link portal/harry beaters" LFM's. Most any quest in the game can be completed with the first 6/12 that walk up.

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 09:21 AM
Really ? any number that would give total damage would be used as a meter to gauge others DPS.
Thus becoming a "DPS Meter".

Let me give you an example...Shroud Part 5, beat down on Harry. People could click on the XP page and then see somewhat real time damage updates. It then would become a DPS meter. I know what they started with, I see the numbers updating....sounds like a DPS Meter to me. I may have to close the window and then re-click it again to see updates but either way...it becomes a DPS Meter.

And kill count should stay and not be replaced, it's used to determine XP bonuses.
It could be replaced with just total kills for the party and not list individual results.

Alright, DPS, damage per second...total damage...equals total damage.

Who do you see killing Harry and clicking on the xp box every second watching total damage numbers pop up, all the while doing the math in their head? lol

I'm just saying the kill count is already used for e-peen...I'm not saying take away total kills for quest bonuses...I'm saying if your gonna have e-peen...at least put it where it matters.

Vellrad
11-19-2010, 09:39 AM
Thing I just realized about this:
If it would be implemented, we would know exactly bosses HP!

Jrstevenson07
11-19-2010, 09:45 AM
Thing I just realized about this:
If it would be implemented, we would know exactly bosses HP!

Might run into a tad bit of trouble for certain bosses like harry if the gnolls heal him up.

Make sure you get that 1 rounder

Seihan
11-19-2010, 09:54 AM
then that would be like a DPS meter, there is a current thread about such a thing. Comparing it to WOW's DPS meter system.

If that is what the OP was actually taking about, either way, it's bad.

I played WoW before and after dps meters came on the scene and imo it hurt the game. So many players now make scoring big numbers on such meter the primary focus to their play and use it as a tool for singling out 'bads'.

Nevermind that these so called 'bads' lose some of their dps numbers because they spent time casting cc, moving out of fire, removing debuffs etc. Dps meters just encourage tunnel-vision style dps over versitile or strategic gameplay from what I've seen. I'd be sad to see DDO go that way.

DragonMageT
11-19-2010, 10:06 AM
Who do you see killing Harry and clicking on the xp box every second watching total damage numbers pop up, all the while doing the math in their head? lol

The same people that put "link DR beaters" in their LFMs, the same people that put using MyDDO or
the same people that use MyDDO.

And you want to focused on the literal meaning of DPS. If a total damage # is given,
players can arbitrarily extract numbers out to be a DPS Meter, like in the example I gave.

It will happen.

And if you can't do simple math in your head (subtraction), use a calculator :)

Shuleagh
11-19-2010, 10:14 AM
I played WoW before and after dps meters came on the scene and imo it hurt the game. So many players now make scoring big numbers on such meter the primary focus to their play and use it as a tool for singling out 'bads'.

Nevermind that these so called 'bads' lose some of their dps numbers because they spent time casting cc, moving out of fire, removing debuffs etc. Dps meters just encourage tunnel-vision style dps over versitile or strategic gameplay from what I've seen. I'd be sad to see DDO go that way.

Damage meters helped the game tremendously. You can't have challenging content without damage meters. It just doesn't work. The difference in the complexity of encounters before and after damage meters came to play was huge. Content before Damage meters was a joke.

You already have people being excluded in DDO even without Damage meters. No Damage meters means if you ask to join a group for anything difficult and you aren't well known you don't get invited. I've already seen it happen multiple times in DDO. With a Damage meter all it takes is one run to find out if a dps is contributing. Without one its a crapshoot. Run Shroud, VoD, ToD, HoX and epics dozens of times and eventually your name gets out.

t0r012
11-19-2010, 10:28 AM
As said what about the Wiz that spams mass hold do they get all the crit damage added to them?

How about the monk like myself that runs in and stuns the first mob for the slow pokes behind him and leave him stunned to get killed by others while you deal non crit damage to the next mob?
should all that auto crit damage get added to the monks total?

should the rogue get all his sneak damage added if he wouldn't be doing half as much if there wasn't a barb or fighter grabbing aggro for him to get sneak damage to start with?

What about bards should they get the + damage from all their songs added to their total? how about the extra damage the melees do because they hit on a 2 with the bard songs? should the damage being added cause they aren't missing on 3-5 be added to the bards total?

this isn't WoW or another crappy tank,spank and spike it is the dynamic DDO.

I like many DDO players contribute as we can and expect others to do their best, that is all we ask.

If you need a E-peen measuring stick that is a damage/dps meter DDO probably isn't your best choice of game.

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 10:34 AM
The same people that put "link DR beaters" in their LFMs, the same people that put using MyDDO or
the same people that use MyDDO.

And you want to focused on the literal meaning of DPS. If a total damage # is given,
players can arbitrarily extract numbers out to be a DPS Meter, like in the example I gave.

It will happen.

And if you can't do simple math in your head (subtraction), use a calculator :)

You cannot get all this information just from a simple, total damage out put number. You don't know how many times someone had to swing to get those numbers...

What exactly would be the other meaning of dps? lol I think that you are confusing two very different things.

Have you ever played WoW? is what my question is. Have you ever actually used the damage meters? or are you saying things like...


then that would be like a DPS meter, there is a current thread about such a thing. Comparing it to WOW's DPS meter system.

If that is what the OP was actually taking about, either way, it's bad.

Because you're regurgitating things other people are saying in other posts that actually have to do with dps? It seems you haven't really played WoW to me...yet are commenting on it...could be wrong.

Shuleagh
11-19-2010, 10:38 AM
As said what about the Wiz that spams mass hold do they get all the crit damage added to them?

How about the monk like myself that runs in and stuns the first mob for the slow pokes behind him and leave him stunned to get killed by others while you deal non crit damage to the next mob?
should all that auto crit damage get added to the monks total?

should the rogue get all his sneak damage added if he wouldn't be doing half as much if there wasn't a barb or fighter grabbing aggro for him to get sneak damage to start with?

What about bards should they get the + damage from all their songs added to their total? how about the extra damage the melees do because they hit on a 2 with the bard songs? should the damage being added cause they aren't missing on 3-5 be added to the bards total?

this isn't WoW or another crappy tank,spank and spike it is the dynamic DDO.

I like many DDO players contribute as we can and expect others to do their best, that is all we ask.

If you need a E-peen measuring stick that is a damage/dps meter DDO probably isn't your best choice of game.

I don't recall people caring much about damage done to trash. It helps but really it wouldn't matter when you have so many insta-kill effects like vorpal, smiting, fod, wail etc... People want damage meters so that when you fight a boss you can tell who is contributing. Do I want to know that the 10 str finesse rogue who isn't bypassing DR is contributing almost nothing? Yes. Its also just a fun tool to trash talk about with friends. As boring as most raids are it would give the dps something to chat about.

OldAquarian
11-19-2010, 10:39 AM
First - dps does not necessarily equal damage per second - DPS only counts when you are active - total damage always counts - so if you split groups and one group has to fight 3 mobs and the other 2 mobs - the total damage for the first group would be higher - the second group could have higher dps. Or the rogue that has to stop to do a trap - or the person pulling a switch - they will lose out in total damage, but not DPS

Second - making it public is probably a bad idea - the other thread requested a personal meter - and the key here is that only you see it

So while i gree with a personal dps meter - the idea of a public damage count - while it could be productive, will most likely lead to drama we could all do without

As an aside - while I am against it, part of me would like to see how I stack up - but I wouldn't want to inflict that on others

flynnjsw
11-19-2010, 10:46 AM
As said what about the Wiz that spams mass hold do they get all the crit damage added to them?

How about the monk like myself that runs in and stuns the first mob for the slow pokes behind him and leave him stunned to get killed by others while you deal non crit damage to the next mob?
should all that auto crit damage get added to the monks total?

should the rogue get all his sneak damage added if he wouldn't be doing half as much if there wasn't a barb or fighter grabbing aggro for him to get sneak damage to start with?

What about bards should they get the + damage from all their songs added to their total? how about the extra damage the melees do because they hit on a 2 with the bard songs? should the damage being added cause they aren't missing on 3-5 be added to the bards total?

this isn't WoW or another crappy tank,spank and spike it is the dynamic DDO.

I like many DDO players contribute as we can and expect others to do their best, that is all we ask.

If you need a E-peen measuring stick that is a damage/dps meter DDO probably isn't your best choice of game.


^^^ This, primarily the last sentance.


I don't recall people caring much about damage done to trash. It helps but really it wouldn't matter when you have so many insta-kill effects like vorpal, smiting, fod, wail etc... People want damage meters so that when you fight a boss you can tell who is contributing. Do I want to know that the 10 str finesse rogue who isn't bypassing DR is contributing almost nothing? Yes. Its also just a fun tool to trash talk about with friends. As boring as most raids are it would give the dps something to chat about.

People want DPS meters so they can feel superior. Period.

Shuleagh
11-19-2010, 10:51 AM
People want DPS meters so they can feel superior. Period.

I don't want dps meters to feel superior. I'm a person. Guess you're wrong on that statement.

flynnjsw
11-19-2010, 10:56 AM
I don't want dps meters to feel superior. I'm a person. Guess you're wrong on that statement.


People want damage meters so that when you fight a boss you can tell who is contributing. Do I want to know that the 10 str finesse rogue who isn't bypassing DR is contributing almost nothing? Yes.

Hmmm...I guess that "needing to know who is contributing" means you you are not worried about anyone one person contributing more than another. Interesting, yet false. The only person that you need to really be worried about contributing is yourself. The only person you "ever" have to measure yourself against is...yourself.

Ghaldar
11-19-2010, 11:00 AM
Or we could have how many times I had to heal your stupid ass meter.



How about devs use dev time to add I don't know....more content at high level instead of worthless WoW like features that do not mean anything but to campare epeens.

Shuleagh
11-19-2010, 11:06 AM
Hmmm...I guess that "needing to know who is contributing" means you you are not worried about anyone one person contributing more than another. Interesting, yet false. The only person that you need to really be worried about contributing is yourself. The only person you "ever" have to measure yourself against is...yourself.

That made very little sense. Every dps should care about how they measure up with the others and want to be better. Why be content with being average or worse?

flynnjsw
11-19-2010, 11:12 AM
That made very little sense. Every dps should care about how they measure up with the others and want to be better. Why be content with being average or worse?

It only doesn't make sense if you require others to be a measuring stick for anything. You can see your own damage numbers, want to do better, find a way to make them higher. I don't need to see your numbers for me to improve. It's called self-reliance and self-improvement.

DragonMageT
11-19-2010, 11:18 AM
You cannot get all this information just from a simple, total damage out put number. You don't know how many times someone had to swing to get those numbers...

What exactly would be the other meaning of dps? lol I think that you are confusing two very different things.

Have you ever played WoW? is what my question is. Have you ever actually used the damage meters? or are you saying things like...



Because you're regurgitating things other people are saying in other posts that actually have to do with dps? It seems you haven't really played WoW to me...yet are commenting on it...could be wrong.

Reading comprehension FTW! go back and re-read the posts.
The OP never mentioned WOW, I was and it was only in referencing to another thread comparing the WOW DPS meter.

To answer you question, tried it very briefly, not long enough to say I really played WOW, didn't' care for it.
But that's really irrelevant to this topic since since no one is talking about a WOW DPS METER, except you.

Do you even have a grasp of the English language, I guess not. I used wording like "arbitrarily extract numbers".
Doesn't me they are 100% accurate or even valid but people will do it and they will be used to judge others.

Man, you are clueless. What the hell does # of swings have to do with DPS ? nothing.
The S stands for Seconds not swings. It's talking about time which doesn't really apply but you want to go down that path. LOL now who is confused...looks like you confused yourself... # of swings, LMAO.

Give me a total damage # and you bet I can give you a true DPS # or Meter.

Let me explain it to you in simple terms because apparently you need it explained that way.

1 take the total damage of Player A before Harry boss fight.
2 start timer once boss fight starts.
3 stop timer once boss fight ends.
4 take (total damage after boss fight - total damage before boss fight) / (stop time - start time in seconds)

There you have it.....TRUE DPS #


Again..../not signed for any type of total damage #

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 11:29 AM
First - dps does not necessarily equal damage per second - DPS only counts when you are active - total damage always counts - so if you split groups and one group has to fight 3 mobs and the other 2 mobs - the total damage for the first group would be higher - the second group could have higher dps. Or the rogue that has to stop to do a trap - or the person pulling a switch - they will lose out in total damage, but not DPS


DPS always means dps whether your currently active or not. It always means how much damage you can get off in one second. It can fluctuate, but it's meaning doesn't change. You're thinking of dps in terms of quest length, over terms of dps while swinging. You don't get dps by seeing quest completion, and dividing the amount of seconds you were in, by the amount of damage you out put.

Shuleagh
11-19-2010, 11:32 AM
It only doesn't make sense if you require others to be a measuring stick for anything. You can see your own damage numbers, want to do better, find a way to make them higher. I don't need to see your numbers for me to improve. It's called self-reliance and self-improvement.

How do you even know you have to improve if you just see your own numbers? A maxed strength, epic'ed out barb and a max dex DW muckbanes barb are both going to see the exact same thing. Numbers above the bosses' head as they pew pew until the boss dies. They're going to think the exact same thing too "Yay, I'm awesome". One of them is right.

Jrstevenson07
11-19-2010, 11:35 AM
It only doesn't make sense if you require others to be a measuring stick for anything. You can see your own damage numbers, want to do better, find a way to make them higher. I don't need to see your numbers for me to improve. It's called self-reliance and self-improvement.

For a lot of people just seeing their own numbers arent much of an indicator because they dont have much to compare it to (yeah, guilty, i was one of them). Just because a lot of people would probably misuse it (only focus on that number) you'd be an idiot to to not take into account healing, CC'ing, intiming, etc.



DragonmageT:

I respect your opinion, but it seems like you are really hung up on the idea that this creates a DPS meter. I follow your logic that you outlined, but it isnt like that couldnt be applied anyway. Whats to stop a party from doing that already by combing their combat logs and combining numbers?


I still think it's a good idea. It seems that most of you are only opposed because the worry about its misuse (like MYDDO). Can somone give me another reason why this wouldnt be a good idea?

Cauthey
11-19-2010, 11:40 AM
People want DPS meters so they can feel superior. Period.

I don't think that's true in all cases. Some cases, sure. But really, feeling superior and talking trash with the close buddies that you always group with is part of the fun! :D

Maybe implement it, and give a gameplay checkbox option you could mark to mask your DPS data from being public if you're really worried about it.

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 11:47 AM
Reading comprehension FTW! go back and re-read the posts.
The OP never mentioned WOW, I was and it was only in referencing to another thread comparing the WOW DPS meter.

To answer you question, tried it very briefly, not long enough to say I really played WOW, didn't' care for it.
But that's really irrelevant to this topic since since no one is talking about a WOW DPS METER, except you.

Do you even have a grasp of the English language, I guess not. I used wording like "arbitrarily extract numbers".
Doesn't me they are 100% accurate or even valid but people will do it and they will be used to judge others.

Man, you are clueless. What the hell does # of swings have to do with DPS ? nothing.
The S stands for Seconds not swings. It's talking about time which doesn't really apply but you want to go down that path. LOL now who is confused...looks like you confused yourself... # of swings, LMAO.

Give me a total damage # and you bet I can give you a true DPS # or Meter.

Let me explain it to you in simple terms because apparently you need it explained that way.

1 take the total damage of Player A before Harry boss fight.
2 start timer once boss fight starts.
3 stop timer once boss fight ends.
4 take (total damage after boss fight - total damage before boss fight) / (stop time - start time in seconds)

There you have it.....TRUE DPS #


Again..../not signed for any type of total damage #

+1, your lunacy is making me look good lol. TY for that.

I don't think a wall of text back to you is going to help...you definitely need more of a sit down, one on one chat about dps.

EDIT: Ask yourself why I knew you didn't really play WoW lol...

diamabel
11-19-2010, 11:53 AM
They should work out in one of the next few updates a damage count that goes along with kill count. I think it would make it easier to tell exactly who is slacking off in a party, maybe even enable a player to see if they need to make some character adjustments.

Dont know if it would be idfficult, but i wouldnt mind a healing damage count either.


Obviously you want a way to measure performance. Ideally by calculating a figure which itself is an extract of various informations. If you want an accurate indicator for performance then you'll need as much data as possible (more than just the damage output). The data then needs to be compiled into a short summary. In the process of calculating such a summary you will always lose some informations. If you don't consider enough data then you have a limited view on the subject from the get go. There will always be an uncertainty whether or not some vital informations were omitted.

Suppose Turbine will eventually implement such a thing (either some kind of DPS meter or a more detailed and easily parsable combat log for the users to evaluate). How will things like instant death/vorpal effects, crowd controll, healing, team work or smart play get mixed in this number?

What will you do with that information? For which content will it be used? Raids or everyday questing? Will you compare apples and oranges (which may be the case in pugs where different builds and equipment levels clash)?

Such numbers will have to be evaluated over a longer time frame. One exceptional good or bad run might be just that: an exception.


If you want just a damage output meter why not as well have a whole new quest/raid with some practice dummies. For better performance the dummies shouldn't move much and have low saves and low AC. ;)

Besides, DDO quests are sometimes inhabited by monsters which regenerate health. I wonder how many people would just grab a few of these monsters for a neverending tete-a-tete to push their own damage output while the rest of the group tries to finish the quest. Obviously if someone can dish out much damage then he/she must be a good player.


p.s.
Such a number wouldn't tell you if you will get along well with other players.

p.p.s.
If you want an arbitrary number for bragging rights then "d(<insert some big number>)" should work as well. ;)

DragonMageT
11-19-2010, 12:03 PM
+1, your lunacy is making me look good lol. TY for that.

I don't think a wall of text back to you is going to help...you definitely need more of a sit down, one on one chat about dps.

EDIT: Ask yourself why I knew you didn't really play WoW lol...

Nice try to save face. You talk about # of swing in terms of DPS and think I need the sit down.
Someone is delusional.

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 12:10 PM
Nice try to save face. You talk about # of swing in terms of DPS and think I need the sit down.
Someone is delusional.

You talk like timing a boss fight is going to give you true dps...

Did you even sit down and think why I would say whether your swinging or not would be worth noting while determining dps? lol

Your version of dps: You log into the game. You do Kobold Assault and do 1000 total damage. You chat with your friends. You afk for a beer. You take a call from an uncle you haven't heard from in 2 years. You log out 5 hours later. And you did what? .05 dps

Actual dps: you start swinging (fighting) timer starts, you stop swinging (fighting) timer stops.

That's the basics for you...

DragonMageT
11-19-2010, 12:14 PM
For a lot of people just seeing their own numbers arent much of an indicator because they dont have much to compare it to (yeah, guilty, i was one of them). Just because a lot of people would probably misuse it (only focus on that number) you'd be an idiot to to not take into account healing, CC'ing, intiming, etc.



DragonmageT:

I respect your opinion, but it seems like you are really hung up on the idea that this creates a DPS meter. I follow your logic that you outlined, but it isnt like that couldnt be applied anyway. Whats to stop a party from doing that already by combing their combat logs and combining numbers?


Because to my knowledge, the logs are not written out to your computer, they become full to quickly which would cause you to miss events FIFO thing going on.

There is no way to do what I have outline, currently and I will add that I know of.
A total damage # would be the fastest and probably the most accurate way to get a true DPS #.

It wouldn't be that hard, hit XP page and screen cap right before fight,
hit XP page again right after fight, screen cap again.
Have a timer program running off to the side.... seems pretty simple to me.

DragonMageT
11-19-2010, 12:23 PM
You talk like timing a boss fight is going to give you true dps...

Did you even sit down and think why I would say whether your swinging or not would be worth noting while determining dps? lol

Your version of dps: You log into the game. You do Kobold Assault and do 1000 total damage. You chat with your friends. You afk for a beer. You take a call from an uncle you haven't heard from in 2 years. You log out 5 hours later. And you did what? .05 dps

Actual dps: you start swinging (fighting) timer starts, you stop swinging (fighting) timer stops.

That's the basics for you...

Really, lets be realistic here. Who cares about Kobold Assault.

I am was referencing controlled beat downs and timing (like in my example), I think I was very clear on that fact.
Shroud Part 5, TOD Part 2 or Part 3, EVon 6, dragon, VOD (to some extent).

I am sure there are other examples that could be listed.
Sure, people could be changing weapons, hitting boost of various types, drinking pots, etc. but those all play into a DPS #.

Jay203
11-19-2010, 12:35 PM
first of all, have fun trying to get this without b*tching lag that'll most likely come with it
secondly, it's stupid to have this sort of number especially when there are so many luck-based proc effects like lightning strike
and third, there's really no point other than to pat your epeen more. let's avoid that altogether in this game yah?

Jrstevenson07
11-19-2010, 12:37 PM
Because to my knowledge, the logs are not written out to your computer, they become full to quickly which would cause you to miss events FIFO thing going on.

There is no way to do what I have outline, currently and I will add that I know of.
A total damage # would be the fastest and probably the most accurate way to get a true DPS #.

It wouldn't be that hard, hit XP page and screen cap right before fight,
hit XP page again right after fight, screen cap again.
Have a timer program running off to the side.... seems pretty simple to me.

Im not sure how full the log can get, but i bet if i took out specific items like damage taken it could get bigger. Im sure that if somone was stubborn enough to do it, they could get a pretty accurate measurement with the current set up (dont look at me). There are even calculators out there that other players use before even making their build to check their DPS. Why is it such a big deal that somone COULD use a damage count this way? They do it with other figures. Dont see how that one specificly hurts the game.


Unless i missed it (could have) no one has provided another reason why it shouldnt be implemented other than 'people will abuse it'. It wouldnt even be hard to implement, its already going directly to your chat log, should be easier to put it in the same area as kill count.

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 12:38 PM
Really, lets be realistic here. Who cares about Kobold Assault.

I am was referencing controlled beat downs and timing (like in my example), I think I was very clear on that fact.
Shroud Part 5, TOD Part 2 or Part 3, EVon 6, dragon, VOD (to some extent).

I am sure there are other examples that could be listed.
Sure, people could be changing weapons, hitting boost of various types, drinking pots, etc. but those all play into a DPS #.

You're marginalizing my example because the quest I used was low level? It was an example, I wanted to use low numbers there for you, and it seems to have worked, a little bit.

Chugging pots has nothing to do with dps lol. How much damage did you do while chugging a pot?

Thrudh
11-19-2010, 12:41 PM
Trouble is, the focus on this sort of suggestion is always on seeing who is 'slacking off' first, before all other considerations.

Exactly... For instance, any melee or ranged attacker who uses paralyzing weapons in Gianthold is immensely helping the party... yet their 'damage count' numbers will be way low...

Or an intimitank who is using S&B (low damage output) but who is getting all the aggro, but with his AC almost no damage...

Thrudh
11-19-2010, 12:43 PM
Here's an example of what the tool looked like:
http://media.curse.com/Curse.Projects.ProjectImages/6808/10072/ConanStats_Stats_v6.png

Okay, the math-nerd in me makes me think that looks pretty darn cool...

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 12:47 PM
@ DragonMageT

Your also forgetting casters...If a caster ooms...does his dps go down just because the boss fight is NOT over?

EDIT: word I missed is in caps...it was important to put that one in there lol.

BTW I am absolutely right here, so you should have something nice to say to me after you come to your senses lol.

Thrudh
11-19-2010, 12:49 PM
As said what about the Wiz that spams mass hold do they get all the crit damage added to them?

How about the monk like myself that runs in and stuns the first mob for the slow pokes behind him and leave him stunned to get killed by others while you deal non crit damage to the next mob?
should all that auto crit damage get added to the monks total?

should the rogue get all his sneak damage added if he wouldn't be doing half as much if there wasn't a barb or fighter grabbing aggro for him to get sneak damage to start with?

What about bards should they get the + damage from all their songs added to their total? how about the extra damage the melees do because they hit on a 2 with the bard songs? should the damage being added cause they aren't missing on 3-5 be added to the bards total?

These. Good post.

Spoonwelder
11-19-2010, 12:50 PM
I can see the self-assessment angle of having some form of total damage meter being attractive.

BUT

1. You have that option already

You can calculate your theoretical top crit damage personally, you can calculate you normal damage - you then apply that to a 20 hit spectrum and get a good idea of your DPS. From self assessment point of view this is all you need - work on this number in theory and you will improve your actual number in practice. Because for you as an individual player - your feat/enhancement/ability profile is set at a point and only the weapon varies OR your weapon is static and you want to apply different feats/enhancements/abilities. Either way you can do some pretty simple math and figure out if it will improve your character.


What is harder to do is applying haste/alacrity figures since the swing per second number is hard to pin down. BUT that number is less important in reality than it is in theory since you are hardly ever constantly attacking unless its beating on a boss.

2. If it is not for self-assessment -

Then it will be a measuring stick used against others for various reasons - given that you need to understand that it will be a non-number since there are too many variables, too many ways to play the game, too many quests with differing styles of objectives, such that any number you get will be fallacious in comparing one character to another.

Heck just a soloer vs. pug vs. guild running in quests will change you total damage or damage per second. Add in Dungeon scaling, hard, elite, epic and you again change the total damage number or even a % damage number.



I will admit I don't know WOW from a hole in the ground, but my understanding is that it is much more definitive in the roles of the players and more constrained in the build paths and mechanics of the game. Thus a DPS meter is a truer measure of a characters impact on the smoothness of a quest. In DDO that isn't the case and a meter isn't needed.

Qezuzu
11-19-2010, 12:55 PM
Instead of comparing everyone's damage on the quest sheet, I suggest an in-game app where you can measure your character's DPS while in combat. eg:

Prime calculator
Swing on mob, timer starts
Fight
Mob dies
Timer stops
Damage done on mob/time spent, is given

Sell for 200 TP. $$$

Boromirs
11-19-2010, 12:57 PM
I could write up a program that copies the combat log, dumps it onto a spreadsheet and then churns out a DPS number. I don't know how accurately it would reflect the character's skill versus the player's skill or if this is even in-line with Turbine's TOS (since I would need to mess with their client , although nothing server side mind you)....hrmmmmmmmmmmm......

lazyninja81
11-19-2010, 01:00 PM
They should work out in one of the next few updates a damage count that goes along with kill count. I think it would make it easier to tell exactly who is slacking off in a party, maybe even enable a player to see if they need to make some character adjustments.

Dont know if it would be idfficult, but i wouldnt mind a healing damage count either.

Right, cause all those healing clerics and favoured souls, CC casters and buffing bards are a total waste of a party slot.

/not signed

DragonMageT
11-19-2010, 01:04 PM
You're marginalizing my example because the quest I used was low level? It was an example, I wanted to use low numbers there for you, and it seems to have worked, a little bit.

Chugging pots has nothing to do with dps lol. How much damage did you do while chugging a pot?

Yes I was, don't see the point of your example...so you find out about a piker, not about their DPS.
Like you wouldn't have noticed them piking anyway.

Chugging pots = no damage
But the S in DPS kept going for x amount of seconds which has everything to do with DPS.


Jrstevenson07,
There is too much information flowing into the combat log, watch it next time during a boss fight.
Or better yet, after the boss fight, try to find the beginning entries in the log.

Jrstevenson07
11-19-2010, 01:05 PM
Right, cause all those healing clerics and favoured souls, CC casters and buffing bards are a total waste of a party slot.

/not signed

Forgive me for being amazed that so many people have taken this to mean 'if you dont do damage, you are slacking off'. I said it earlier, that is NOT what my suggestion pertained to. It's hard enough to get clerics to put the longsword down as it is (some clerics anyway).

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 01:08 PM
Yes I was, don't see the point of your example...so you find out about a piker, not about their DPS.
Like you wouldn't have noticed them piking anyway.

Chugging pots = no damage
But the S in DPS kept going for x amount of seconds which has everything to do with DPS.


So again..., takes 'x' amount of seconds to take a chug from my drink during a boss fight....

Everything with seconds apparently is added to dps lol...

This is why I +1'd you...lol

flynnjsw
11-19-2010, 01:12 PM
Forgive me for being amazed that so many people have taken this to mean 'if you dont do damage, you are slacking off'. I said it earlier, that is NOT what my suggestion pertained to. It's hard enough to get clerics to put the longsword down as it is (some clerics anyway).

If a cleric is keeping the party up, then he has just as much right to swing a weapon as anyone else, same as a FvS. This statement as much as anything else is why a lot of clerics don't group outside of friends/guilds.

Jrstevenson07
11-19-2010, 01:20 PM
If a cleric is keeping the party up, then he has just as much right to swing a weapon as anyone else, same as a FvS. This statement as much as anything else is why a lot of clerics don't group outside of friends/guilds.

Agreed, if they are keeping the party up. swing away, bake a cake, read a book, create a thread on the forums that creates a misperception of your proposed idea.

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 01:30 PM
@ DragonMageT

Your also forgetting casters...If a caster ooms...does his dps go down just because the boss fight is NOT over?

EDIT: word I missed is in caps...it was important to put that one in there lol.

BTW I am absolutely right here, so you should have something nice to say to me after you come to your senses lol.

Funny how know - it - all's skip out on a topic once their theories are blown out of the water.

Taimasan
11-19-2010, 01:34 PM
/signed

I would like to use it as a tool to measure different builds weapons feats and allocations to optimize my character. not saying its impossible to do now, but a meter of some sort would help.

Ciaran
11-19-2010, 01:40 PM
Okay, the math-nerd in me makes me think that looks pretty darn cool...

It was, and I'm far from a math nerd (I'm horrible at teh maths).

I should point out that screenshot is all jacked up - the combos being showed for a Barbarian are actually for a Conqueror, and the combos listed are for a 2H spec which is much less damage. I just pulled the screenshot off of Curse.com.

Blackbird
11-19-2010, 01:59 PM
:D

http://www.cad-comic.com/cad/20080801

Here's the direct picture:

http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/1084/20080801.jpg

DragonMageT
11-19-2010, 02:27 PM
Funny how know - it - all's skip out on a topic once their theories are blown out of the water.

Look I don't know what kind of drugs you are on and why you can't grasp the concept relating to DPS.
If I do things during a fight, like drinking a pot, other than swinging my weapon,
it takes away from my DPS, your DPS, any ones DPS.

It doesn't matter if you want to compare in seconds or based upon rolls form 1 to 20.
At least one roll would have no damage for performing that other action
(like drinking a pot) as it relates to DPS.

Now I introduced a new topic for you, "rolls from 1 to 20", you probably won't get that either
and want to argue for the next 15 posts about it.

These are not my theories, there are numerous posts on the subject matter.
I didn't skip out on anything, I was just tried of trying to enlighten you.
It seems like it's a hopeless cause.

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 02:42 PM
Look I don't know what kind of drugs you are on and why you can't grasp the concept relating to DPS.
If I do things during a fight, like drinking a pot, other than swinging my weapon,
it takes away from my DPS, your DPS, any ones DPS.

It doesn't matter if you want to compare in seconds or based upon rolls form 1 to 20.
At least one roll would have no damage for performing that other action
(like drinking a pot) as it relates to DPS.

Now I introduced a new topic for you, "rolls from 1 to 20", you probably won't get that either
and want to argue for the next 15 posts about it.

These are not my theories, there are numerous posts on the subject matter.
I didn't skip out on anything, I was just tried of trying to enlighten you.
It seems like it's a hopeless cause.

I'm just here to tell you, you're absolutely wrong. See I don't need to go ranting on about numerous forum threads I've read....I've actually used the programs myself. I'm here to tell you, if a caster oom's, his dps doesn't lessen because a fight is still taking place...if a fighter afk's...his dps doesn't go down because a fight keeps going on...

DDO is not a dps based game...so your enlightenment is worthless, unless you have experience in a dps based game...sorry, not my fault. You obviously haven't played WoW enough to know about it...so tell me what you're experience is, not what you read on ddo forums.

Which is why I'd never vouch for a dps meter on ddo...just a damage count. Which is what this thread is about...

TitoJ
11-19-2010, 02:53 PM
If a weapon sit's on WoW's AH...it's dps does not decline...lmao.

Ravoc-DDO
11-19-2010, 03:38 PM
/signed, but only if the total damage inflicted is a private number being shown to you alone.

We don't need more discrimination in this game.

Xilraazz
11-19-2010, 05:42 PM
I'd love to see what my DPS is on certain fights, to see what weapon setup does the most damage for me, if taking a second to drink a rage pot is worth the dps gain, etc.

To see if a build i didn't follow exactly has a big enough gain to make it worth me modifying mine.

i'd be happy if ddo created a local log file because then it could be parsed. and since ddo doesn't give you the option of seeing everyone's damage number then it would still just keep the information personal.

i used to do a lot of parsing of raids in EQ and it was nice to be able to see how a weapon/gear setup compared to a different one, also timing of special attacks and such.

donfilibuster
11-19-2010, 06:42 PM
A metric to spot who needs a better build may worsen the elitism out there.

It might be better to just show the max and avg numbers as well as your own so you can compare your own toon only.
On damage and kills, but also on healing and sp spent, like in buffs, not sure how that'd work for bards.

As of now a better way to find the good players is to run with them several times.

Soleran
11-19-2010, 06:53 PM
I would love a tool in DDO that let me at least track my own dps or total damage I wouldn't care if other people saw it either, that said I can see scads of barbs being born though after I keep mobs stunned on my monk and barbs dps skyrockets lol.

Kmnh
11-19-2010, 06:54 PM
This is the worst idea I've ever read on these forums. It would hurt the game more than the nerfs that the PvP crowd asks for.

justhavinfun
11-19-2010, 07:04 PM
Does it really matter? I rarely even look at my kill count the only thing that matters is the competion of the quest not who killed the most or who out damaged whom. I would be perfectly happy if they dropped kill count in the first place. I don't feel the need to prove anything just to get the completion for the xps and the loot.

Jrstevenson07
11-19-2010, 08:22 PM
This is the worst idea I've ever read on these forums. It would hurt the game more than the nerfs that the PvP crowd asks for.

I respect your opinion, but if this is the worst you've read i have to ask:

were you somhow abused as a child by total damage recording, or did you just sign up for your account?

sirdanile
11-19-2010, 10:18 PM
I wouldnt mind this, or the ability to parse the combat log in order to get this information yourself.

Nite_Prowler
11-19-2010, 10:51 PM
My suggestion: just remove the kill-count-per-toon altogether. We should be able to see how many monsters were killed total for the purposes of knowing how close we are to conquest etc., but other than that it serves no purpose whatsoever, other than epeen measuring, which is no purpose whatsoever.

Knowing how much damage you do isn't all that hard if you know your build and which gear you'll use, knowing how much damage someone else does is the last thing this game needs.

+1

Well said

DPS in game is easy enough to figure out without adding anything to the game.

I'm seeing way too many people whinning about DPS
Go back to WOW if your worried about DPS

felix1205
12-27-2010, 04:51 PM
hmm, i'm a bit in both camps.

it would be usefull to see my own dps.
don't care about damage that others do.

i sometimes wonder if i should run with Power Attack on or off, as on misses a few more times.
would i kill a mob faster without it?

with that kind of (my char only) meter i could just attack a few mobs with it and without it and see whats better.

but it could be i'm just clueless and some of you know a better way to find that out.