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Tirisha
11-15-2010, 09:39 AM
It makes me sad that a Bard can get a higher Spell pen and Disco ball DC than my Sorc.

It makes me sad that a WF wizard with 2 lvs of Rogue has 3 higher DC mass holds than my lv 20 drow Sorc.

It makes me sad that people consider Sorcs DPS (and that's why that can't have good DCs O.o)

It makes me sad that a Bard has more CHA than my lv 20 max CHA Drow sorc

Can we get another End Cap? One with +2 cha maybe?

I'm not gonna whine (maybe a little) about Wizards getting another PRE when sorcs don't have one to take as long as Sorcs get a pre say.... U8:D (eh... eh...)

Jaid314
11-15-2010, 02:40 PM
if the bard is getting higher enchantment DCs than you, it's only because the bard invested in spell focus while you probably invested in damage-boosting metamagics.

sorcerer DC: 10 +9 (spell level/heighten) + charisma modifier + item + feats.

bard DC: 10 + 6 (spell level/heighten) + charisma modifier (2 higher than sorc if capstone) + item + feats + capstone.

those should be the exact same, assuming your sorc invested as many points into charisma as your bard, and you have the same gear and feats.

if you *don't* have the same gear and feats, well, stop comparing yourself. you'll either be equal once you get the gear, or you yourself are the only one to blame because you yourself are the one who chose not to invest in feats to boost your DC.

it is also worth noting that the bard doesn't get many of the amazing spells that you *do* get, like energy drain, mass hold monster, wall of fire, web, etc; and that you should probably have easily 1000 spell points more than the bard.

i do think you've got a valid point about our capstone being a bit lackluster (it's good if you want your primary focus to be damage, not very useful if you want to be a bit more DC-focused), but the wizard also likely only has about 1-2 points of DC on you... *if you spec for it the same way the wizard did*

the only thing the wizard can get (other than capstone +2 int) that you can't is either lich form or archmage enhancements (one of which you can balance out by chugging the charisma yugo pot that the average archmage won't drink the int equivalent for... though the lich certainly will, that still leaves you 2 points behind in either case; not a huge difference, ultimately).

in short, stop complaining about the fact that you choose a different specialisation. the only reason your sorcerer has lower DCs than a bard is if you chose to have lower DCs, and your sorcerer if properly spec'd will also be pretty close to where the wizard is.

TheDearLeader
11-15-2010, 03:05 PM
sorcerer DC: 10 +9 (spell level/heighten) + charisma modifier + item + feats.

bard DC: 10 + 6 (spell level/heighten) + charisma modifier (2 higher than sorc if capstone) + item + feats + capstone.


Seem to be forgetting Spellsong Trance. I'm sure there's more but I immediately notice that. Also, when mentioning Bard SP, seem to be forgetting that when we're talking CC-specced, we're likely talking Spellsinger II, so cheaper casting costs, and self-SP regen. Two Spellsong Vigors later, the Bard has made up for the Spell Point gap.

Also, take into account that Wizards can "spec" for more. 5 Extra Metamagics, Spell Focus-based PrEs and +2 Int is starting to look a lot tastier than 20% Damage and a Spell Point gap that is slowly closing.

The point is both other classes are, as of the last few updates, much better equipped for Epics, where that 20% Extra damage is marginalized by the mobs having heavy elemental resistances/absorption/immunities, and ungodly hit points.

stoolcannon
11-15-2010, 03:15 PM
It makes me sad that a Bard can get a higher Spell pen and Disco ball DC than my Sorc.

It makes me sad that a WF wizard with 2 lvs of Rogue has 3 higher DC mass holds than my lv 20 drow Sorc.

It makes me sad that people consider Sorcs DPS (and that's why that can't have good DCs O.o)

It makes me sad that a Bard has more CHA than my lv 20 max CHA Drow sorc

Can we get another End Cap? One with +2 cha maybe?

I'm not gonna whine (maybe a little) about Wizards getting another PRE when sorcs don't have one to take as long as Sorcs get a pre say.... U8:D (eh... eh...)

I agree, Sorcs should have incredibly powerful damage spells AND incredibly effective crowd control on top of having 1/3 or more spell points more than Wizards.

Sorcs should also be able to memorize spells whenever they want too and have a larger spellbook.

Come to think of it, let's just delete Wizards entirely because who needs balance?

Or let's not change anything because it's balanced right now. Wizard's can't sustain the damage over the long haul but are more flexible and able to hit higher DC's.

Sorcs do a lot more damage for a longer amount of time but are less flexible.

Not gimped, balanced.

Also, Sorcs are very effective in epics, it just depends on which epic you're running. Try running OOB or Thrashk Arena, or VoN2 or many others and you'll see that sorcs do just fine. Firewall + SHield Block works fine in most areas of the House P chain as well.

KingOfCheese
11-15-2010, 03:25 PM
A well built and geared sorc is very effective in all epics. Sorcs can readily reach the "good enough" DC levels and Spell Pen levels to dominate epics.

When the sorc PREs do arrive, I suspect they'll up DPS and spell costs and the like, but not enhance DCs or Spell Pen. But that's fine.

stoolcannon
11-15-2010, 03:30 PM
A well built and geared sorc is very effective in all epics. Sorcs can readily reach the "good enough" DC levels and Spell Pen levels to dominate epics.

When the sorc PREs do arrive, I suspect they'll up DPS and spell costs and the like, but not enhance DCs or Spell Pen. But that's fine.

Couldn't agree more. I ran OOB with a sorc this morning and he was landing his holds pretty well and nuking the hell out of everything. My DC's are probably higher at 40 but his firewalls make my look pretty gimp.

TheDearLeader
11-15-2010, 03:46 PM
I agree, Sorcs should have incredibly powerful damage spells AND incredibly effective crowd control on top of having 1/3 or more spell points more than Wizards.

Sorcs should also be able to memorize spells whenever they want too and have a larger spellbook.

Come to think of it, let's just delete Wizards entirely because who needs balance?

Or let's not change anything because it's balanced right now. Wizard's can't sustain the damage over the long haul but are more flexible and able to hit higher DC's.

Sorcs do a lot more damage for a longer amount of time but are less flexible.

Not gimped, balanced.

Also, Sorcs are very effective in epics, it just depends on which epic you're running. Try running OOB or Thrashk Arena, or VoN2 or many others and you'll see that sorcs do just fine. Firewall + SHield Block works fine in most areas of the House P chain as well.

I apologize if this seems unkind, but you're living in the past. Prior to Spellsinger II and Archmage, as well as the "Minion" quality bestowed to Epic Mobs, most would have agreed that Sorc and Wizard had a fair amount of balance going on. Wizards could specialize in a school for higher DCs via 5 extra feats, and custom-tailor their spell lists to match each and every quest in the game, and Sorcs got to deal more damage and last longer due to higher SP pools.

Our current reality, however, illustrates what I was alluding to above - the "pros" of being a Sorcerer are becoming quickly encroached upon by PrEs that make the inflexibility of a Sorcerer almost unbearable.

Lets toss out a scenario.

A single Maximized, Empowered, Extended Firewall costs 75 SP base.

If this crits (which, there will be no such things as a "crit wall" in Update 8), it *may* kill the mobs currently around. 350~400 Damage a tick for 60 seconds, more if the mobs are undead or vulnerable, noticeably less if the mobs have some type of resistance or absorption, which many epic mobs now do.
If its a regular firewall, this number is more in the 160~180 area per tick. There is a high likelihood that the mob(s) will not be killed.
During all this time, the caster may be taking damage (as the devs continue to root out and eliminate ways to cast a wall and hide, be it behind meat shields, or high up on some ledge). So, also take into account the fact that the healer will waste some SP keeping the caster alive.
Casting a second firewall, while being hit, has a chance of being interrupted. Even with a 60 Concentration score, if hit with a single enemy spellcaster's spell in epic (example : chain lightning in VON1, over 100 points of lightning damage on a save, with 30 electric resist, if you actually save for that matter. Can be hit around corners, can be hit with it mid-cast), that 60 Concentration score will net a "Failed" Concentration check on a Die roll of 19 or lower. Casting the second firewall may necessitate quicken, which many sorcs decide they don't have the feat slots for, and would also demand an extra 10 SP, so we're now looking at a total of 160 SP spent for a single "group" of mobs.

Spell point usage : 160 Caster SP + Some amount of Clerical SP.


A single Extended Mass Hold Monster costs 60 SP base. Heighten does not apply.

With the high DCs easily attainable by an Archmage, cast once and done.
Caster is not taking damage, as all mobs are held. Cleric uses no resources.
Both cleric and caster can melee using Dreamspitters, or the new ML:12 Quarterstaff coming up in U8, in order to continually energy drain the mobs.
Melees get auto-crits, and are not taking damage.


Spell point usage : 60 Caster SP, no Clerical SP.

Result: 4 Melees Auto-critting, +2 Support classes energy draining mobs, faster and more SP efficient DPS than a Sorc attempting to Firewall mobs, and melees attacking them while they are un-held, therefore not auto-crit, and possibly moving.

stoolcannon
11-15-2010, 03:52 PM
I apologize if this seems unkind, but you're living in the past. Prior to Spellsinger II and Archmage, as well as the "Minion" quality bestowed to Epic Mobs, most would have agreed that Sorc and Wizard had a fair amount of balance going on. Wizards could specialize in a school for higher DCs via 5 extra feats, and custom-tailor their spell lists to match each and every quest in the game, and Sorcs got to deal more damage and last longer due to higher SP pools.

Our current reality, however, illustrates what I was alluding to above - the "pros" of being a Sorcerer are becoming quickly encroached upon by PrEs that make the inflexibility of a Sorcerer almost unbearable.

Lets toss out a scenario.

A single Maximized, Empowered, Extended Firewall costs 75 SP base.

If this crits (which, there will be no such things as a "crit wall" in Update 8), it *may* kill the mobs currently around. 350~400 Damage a tick for 60 seconds, more if the mobs are undead or vulnerable, noticeably less if the mobs have some type of resistance or absorption, which many epic mobs now do.
If its a regular firewall, this number is more in the 160~180 area per tick. There is a high likelihood that the mob(s) will not be killed.
During all this time, the caster may be taking damage (as the devs continue to root out and eliminate ways to cast a wall and hide, be it behind meat shields, or high up on some ledge). So, also take into account the fact that the healer will waste some SP keeping the caster alive.
Casting a second firewall, while being hit, has a chance of being interrupted. Even with a 60 Concentration score, if hit with a single enemy spellcaster's spell in epic (example : chain lightning in VON1, over 100 points of lightning damage on a save, with 30 electric resist, if you actually save for that matter. Can be hit around corners, can be hit with it mid-cast), that 60 Concentration score will net a "Failed" Concentration check on a Die roll of 19 or lower. Casting the second firewall may necessitate quicken, which many sorcs decide they don't have the feat slots for, and would also demand an extra 10 SP, so we're now looking at a total of 160 SP spent for a single "group" of mobs.

Spell point usage : 160 Caster SP + Some amount of Clerical SP.


A single Extended Mass Hold Monster costs 60 SP base. Heighten does not apply.

With the high DCs easily attainable by an Archmage, cast once and done.
Caster is not taking damage, as all mobs are held. Cleric uses no resources.
Both cleric and caster can melee using Dreamspitters, or the new ML:12 Quarterstaff coming up in U8, in order to continually energy drain the mobs.
Melees get auto-crits, and are not taking damage.


Spell point usage : 60 Caster SP, no Clerical SP.

Result: 4 Melees Auto-critting, +2 Support classes energy draining mobs, faster and more SP efficient DPS than a Sorc attempting to Firewall mobs, and melees attacking them while they are un-held, therefore not auto-crit, and possibly moving.

+1 for responding to my sarcasm with a well thought out post.

I think it would be great to give sorcs a little more flexibility and with the upcoming change to crits (which benefits Wizards if anyone since they don't have the SP to hurl multiple walls looking for crits) I'd like to see added damage modifiers for sorcs.

However, I think the classes are well balanced as "intended" i.e sorcs are bottomless wells of nukes and Wizards are more flexible and better at CC.

Hell I'd like to see something that boosted both classes usefulness in epics beyond firewall, hold and buffbot.

Saravis
11-15-2010, 03:53 PM
Or let's not change anything because it's balanced right now. Wizard's can't sustain the damage over the long haul but are more flexible and able to hit higher DC's.

Sorcs do a lot more damage for a longer amount of time but are less flexible.

Not gimped, balanced.

Also, Sorcs are very effective in epics, it just depends on which epic you're running. Try running OOB or Thrashk Arena, or VoN2 or many others and you'll see that sorcs do just fine. Firewall + SHield Block works fine in most areas of the House P chain as well.
I wonder about that, I've run with Pale Master wizards, wizards that can cast "spell" like ability with no SP cost, costing HP instead, this "penalty" is negated though with use of Death Aura. While I don't have any real numbers, I've found these abilities to be extremely deadly, despite there not being any "real" cost to the casters.
While FW is essential in certain epics, in others, like Phiarlian, it's borderline useless. Its usefulness only there to "assist" the melee and pull agro. I'm a fully fire/cold specced sorc, with max/emp, etc and unless I get a crit wall, I only do about 40-50 pts of damage. Running with my Pale Master friends in the same quests, I've seen them do far more damage than my FW, with no cost. Also I have a hard time buying the whole SP advantage thing, if your smart or VIP, its not hard to obtain mana pots, also there's the Spell Storing ring and Mysterious Bauble, making the SP advantage borderline irrelevant.

I don't care so much myself that Wizzes have better DC, but please don't tell me that they don't have an all around advantage over Sorcs: better DC, more feats, more flexibility (which becomes extremely valuable in end game content when you can switch between high lvl effective spells and epic effective spells), and prestiges with abilities that allow them to be effective without SP cost VS more SP (thats borderline irrelevant), a small boost to damage, and a shorter recharge time (thats rendered irrelevant by quicken)

TheDearLeader
11-15-2010, 03:58 PM
+1 for responding to my sarcasm with a well thought out post.

I think it would be great to give sorcs a little more flexibility and with the upcoming change to crits (which benefits Wizards if anyone since they don't have the SP to hurl multiple walls looking for crits) I'd like to see added damage modifiers for sorcs.

However, I think the classes are well balanced as "intended" i.e sorcs are bottomless wells of nukes and Wizards are more flexible and better at CC.

Hell I'd like to see something that boosted both classes usefulness in epics beyond firewall, hold and buffbot.

One obvious change that would be nice : Make the ToD Ring/Belt sets for Cold/Fire/Electric/Acid damage stack with Elemental Lore items. Wearing the Water Savant set is just about as useful as wearing your favorite Korthos Gear.

Also, they've mentioned breaking up the Elemental lines to each individual element (Fire/Ice/Cold/Electric/Force), and that each "tier" would cost 1 AP each. So in theory, we could have Fire/Lightning specced Sorcs, or a purely Cold-specced Sorc who elects to use a hefty amount Enhancement points in other areas. While Sorcs would still be horribly inflexible due to lack of feats/on-the-go spell selection, Enhancement-based changes would at least open up some possibilities.

stoolcannon
11-15-2010, 04:02 PM
I wonder about that, I've run with Pale Master wizards, wizards that can cast "spell" like ability with no SP cost, costing HP instead, this "penalty" is negated though with use of Death Aura. While I don't have any real numbers, I've found these abilities to be extremely deadly, despite there not being any "real" cost to the casters.
While FW is essential in certain epics, in others, like Phiarlian, it's borderline useless. Its usefulness only there to "assist" the melee and pull agro. I'm a fully fire/cold specced sorc, with max/emp, etc and unless I get a crit wall, I only do about 40-50 pts of damage. Running with my Pale Master friends in the same quests, I've seen them do far more damage than my FW, with no cost. Also I have a hard time buying the whole SP advantage thing, if your smart or VIP, its not hard to obtain mana pots, also there's the Spell Storing ring and Mysterious Bauble, making the SP advantage borderline irrelevant.

I don't care so much myself that Wizzes have better DC, but please don't tell me that they don't have an all around advantage over Sorcs: better DC, more feats, more flexibility (which becomes extremely valuable in end game content when you can switch between high lvl effective spells and epic effective spells), and prestiges with abilities that allow them to be effective without SP cost VS more SP (thats borderline irrelevant), a small boost to damage, and a shorter recharge time (thats rendered irrelevant by quicken)

I think Wizards DO have an advantage in Epic due to the higher DC's but I disagree in general that sorcs are gimped in epics. A good sorc is effective in epics despite what they have traded off to have the other advantages they receive.

Also, your point about SS ring, VIP (Not sure I understand how VIP helps), mana pots and bauble all apply to the sorc as well. So sorcs can get even more SP and keep the gap just as wide.

I've yet to decline a sorc from any epic I've been running and I've never regretted it. They always carry their weight.

I think the Archmage line might have tipped the scales a (small) bit right now in favor of Wizards due to the fact that I was able to get a huge boost to my DC's and by not taking any of the "free spells" I gained a massive amount of SP as well.

However, they cost a lot of enhancement points and require specific feats which in turn reduces the effectiveness of their well-roundedness.

Overall, I still think it's pretty balanced.

stoolcannon
11-15-2010, 04:05 PM
One obvious change that would be nice : Make the ToD Ring/Belt sets for Cold/Fire/Electric/Acid damage stack with Elemental Lore items. Wearing the Water Savant set is just about as useful as wearing your favorite Korthos Gear.

Also, they've mentioned breaking up the Elemental lines to each individual element (Fire/Ice/Cold/Electric/Force), and that each "tier" would cost 1 AP each. So in theory, we could have Fire/Lightning specced Sorcs, or a purely Cold-specced Sorc who elects to use a hefty amount Enhancement points in other areas. While Sorcs would still be horribly inflexible due to lack of feats/on-the-go spell selection, Enhancement-based changes would at least open up some possibilities.

I agree with that. I would expect sorcs to have a huge advantage in all nuke spells in order to make up for their lack of flexibility. They have an advantage now but I wouldn't mind if that gap was widened a bit to make up for their lack of flexibility. I would like to see elemental damage be made more useful in epics overall.

I think an enhancement line that further increases sorc damage might be good as well. Something akin to the current archmage but targeted at sorcs. I had to sacrifice enhancements and balance to get archmage so I think a line creating the same tough decisions for sorcs wouldn't be a bad thing.

Doxmaster
11-15-2010, 04:08 PM
I've wondered this for a while- Why arent sorcs focusing on Mass Hold in epics? Sure, they cant get the Highest DC, but they CAN cast the spell two or three times. If they toss their least useful feat and grab a SF:E, the DC gap closes a little more.

TheDearLeader
11-15-2010, 04:18 PM
Another example to consider :

So far, we've focused on spells that deal static damage, such as Firewall, or perhaps Polar Ray.

What about save-based spells?

Lets give a Sorcerer's Crit DBF a static number, like 1500 on a failed save.
Epic Mob saves, 750 Damage. Epic Mob saves *and* has Evasion/Improved Evasion, such as any archer, 0 Damage.

Evocation Archmage does not benefit from Sorcerer Capstone, of course, so lets put their number more around 1200 on a failed save.
Assuming the Evoker above has utilized their additional feats (+2 Evocation) and has Archmage IV (+2 Additional Evocation). They also have Wizzy Capstone, so +1 to DCs due to increased Int.
*If* this 5-higher DC would allow them to produce a save failure on an enemy mob(s), they are dealing somewhere between 450-1200 more damage than the Sorcerer would in that situation.
Evocation Archmage also gets all the additional, but not mentioned benefits of being of a class that has more feats, and a PrE that closes the Spell Point gap. Evoker V Could train Cyclonic Blast SLA.


Reproduce Scenario with Clay Golems in Epic Wiz King, Disintegrate spell. Capped Sorc vs. Capped Transmutation Archmage.

Personal experience, with Capstone + Sup. Potency, we're looking at ~800 Damage on a failed save, 100 damage on a successful save.

We make that ~640 damage on the Transmuter, but again with +5 to DC compared to a Sorcerer. Transmuters would also have cheap Hastes, which we all love, and possibility at a Flesh to Stone SLA.

Many people avoid save-based damage spells because, simply, mobs save a lot. But given the amount of Spell Specialization Archmages can get without gimping themselves in the process, I foresee a gradual change from avoiding certain spells in the future.

Saravis
11-15-2010, 04:32 PM
I've wondered this for a while- Why arent sorcs focusing on Mass Hold in epics? Sure, they cant get the Highest DC, but they CAN cast the spell two or three times. If they toss their least useful feat and grab a SF:E, the DC gap closes a little more.

Because unless they're trying to be specifically specced, which is a BAD idea (Sorcs are already inflexible enough as it is) they can't afford to get feats for specific purposes, currently as a Sorc I have:
Empower -
Maximize - Sorcs are all about firepower
Extend - For those quests (and there are many) that casters role is buffing
Heighten - Aint no point in trying to improve DCs if you aint got heighten
Toughness - I respecced my Sorc because my HP was insufficient for Epic
Mental Toughness - got to be able to keep the spells going
Spell Pen - what good is DC if the enemy just out right resists the spell.

Oh and can someone explain to me why a wooden box is immune to fire, I am referring to The Snitch in House P

Edit: I'd also like to add another advantage that the Wiz has, I would absolutely LOVE to get Mass Hold, but I can only have 3 spells at lvl 9, compared to the Wiz that can have 5 spells ready, currently I have and need WotB, MS, and Energy Drain

KingOfCheese
11-15-2010, 04:42 PM
I've wondered this for a while- Why arent sorcs focusing on Mass Hold in epics? Sure, they cant get the Highest DC, but they CAN cast the spell two or three times. If they toss their least useful feat and grab a SF:E, the DC gap closes a little more.

I use Mass Hold all the time on my Sorc in epics. WF Sorc (which means other races can do better yet) with a DC of 38 on mass holds hits just fine--i.e., it meets the "good enough" standard. No need for a spell focus feat here.

Doxmaster
11-15-2010, 04:49 PM
Because unless they're trying to be specifically specced, which is a BAD idea (Sorcs are already inflexible enough as it is) they can't afford to get feats for specific purposes, currently as a Sorc I have:
Empower - required

Maximize - Sorcs are all about firepower required

Extend - For those quests (and there are many) that casters role is buffing optional.

Heighten - Aint no point in trying to improve DCs if you aint got heightenRequired

Toughness - I respecced my Sorc because my HP was insufficient for Epic required

Mental Toughness - got to be able to keep the spells going not required. A bad idea actually, since it is only worth about 200 sp. 4 Mass holds.

Spell Pen - what good is DC if the enemy just out right resists the spell.You can get by without it, but it is nice to have



Instead of that...:

Maximize
Toughness
Empower
Heighten
SP:E
GSP:E Or a spell pen feat
Extend OR A spell pen feat. There is a lot of wiggle room here.

And there you go. A few DC behind a wizard, yes, but strong at what you do.

muffinlad
11-15-2010, 04:59 PM
Some snipping....

as a Sorc I have:
Empower -
Maximize - Sorcs are all about firepower
Extend - For those quests (and there are many) that casters role is buffing
Heighten - Aint no point in trying to improve DCs if you aint got heighten
Toughness - I respecced my Sorc because my HP was insufficient for Epic
Mental Toughness - got to be able to keep the spells going
Spell Pen - what good is DC if the enemy just out right resists the spell.


Edit: I'd also like to add another advantage that the Wiz has, I would absolutely LOVE to get Mass Hold, but I can only have 3 spells at lvl 9, compared to the Wiz that can have 5 spells ready, currently I have and need WotB, MS, and Energy Drain

You make some good points. I would consider the following for my build:

Mental toughness is worth 105 mana (I think)....not worth a feat on a Sorc IMHO. I usually take Greater Spell Pen or Focus, spending on my sorc focus.

WotB, Engergy Drain are manditory for me, but I split my sorcs between MS and MHMonster. I have found that I enjoy MHMonster more.

regards,

muffinsorc

Anthios888
11-15-2010, 05:05 PM
lol

kernal42
11-15-2010, 05:10 PM
Another example to consider :

So far, we've focused on spells that deal static damage, such as Firewall, or perhaps Polar Ray.

What about save-based spells?

Lets give a Sorcerer's Crit DBF a static number, like 1500 on a failed save.
Epic Mob saves, 750 Damage. Epic Mob saves *and* has Evasion/Improved Evasion, such as any archer, 0 Damage.

Evocation Archmage does not benefit from Sorcerer Capstone, of course, so lets put their number more around 1200 on a failed save.
Assuming the Evoker above has utilized their additional feats (+2 Evocation) and has Archmage IV (+2 Additional Evocation). They also have Wizzy Capstone, so +1 to DCs due to increased Int.
*If* this 5-higher DC would allow them to produce a save failure on an enemy mob(s), they are dealing somewhere between 450-1200 more damage than the Sorcerer would in that situation.
Evocation Archmage also gets all the additional, but not mentioned benefits of being of a class that has more feats, and a PrE that closes the Spell Point gap. Evoker V Could train Cyclonic Blast SLA.


Reproduce Scenario with Clay Golems in Epic Wiz King, Disintegrate spell. Capped Sorc vs. Capped Transmutation Archmage.

Personal experience, with Capstone + Sup. Potency, we're looking at ~800 Damage on a failed save, 100 damage on a successful save.

We make that ~640 damage on the Transmuter, but again with +5 to DC compared to a Sorcerer. Transmuters would also have cheap Hastes, which we all love, and possibility at a Flesh to Stone SLA.

Many people avoid save-based damage spells because, simply, mobs save a lot. But given the amount of Spell Specialization Archmages can get without gimping themselves in the process, I foresee a gradual change from avoiding certain spells in the future.

You really should be unsurprised that a specialist archmage with significant feat and AP investment is better at using that particular school than the generalist sorcerer is. You should also realize that doing so is not an argument that sorcs are gimped.

At this point, it seems to me that for poorly-equipped toons in epics, wizard is better than sorc: The archmage can easily get to very high enchantment DCs even without great equipment. If the characters are well-equipped, the difference in DCs between sorc and archmage are irrelevant because the mobs are all failing the saves anyway. Then the 50% extra sp and bonus damage vs. bosses makes sorcs superior.

Cheers,
Kernal

maddmatt70
11-15-2010, 05:12 PM
None of you posters even discuss the number one advantage sorcs have over wizards and that is casting speed. Most of the best sorcs out there cite that as the reason why they prefer sorcs over wizards.

Saravis
11-15-2010, 05:45 PM
None of you posters even discuss the number one advantage sorcs have over wizards and that is casting speed. Most of the best sorcs out there cite that as the reason why they prefer sorcs over wizards.

I did and I diminished that advantage by citing the fact that Wizards can grab quicken a lot easier than Sorcs. It is an advantage, I'll admit, but not much of one.

TigrisMorte
11-15-2010, 05:54 PM
I apologize...the healer will waste some SP keeping the caster alive...
Don't worry about the sp for healing. No one shall waste it on a sorc., they're gimp.:D

Boromirs
11-15-2010, 05:59 PM
Sorcs have been ungimped already ---- it is called ICESTORM.

valorik
11-15-2010, 06:01 PM
I did and I diminished that advantage by citing the fact that Wizards can grab quicken a lot easier than Sorcs. It is an advantage, I'll admit, but not much of one.

They can't halve the cool downs...

Doxmaster
11-15-2010, 06:02 PM
And it costs wizzys extra sp. They can cut the extra cost down, but it catches up eventually...

elricken
11-15-2010, 06:13 PM
I'm sorry but I just don't see the point to the op. Wizards may at the moment be stronger, but to say in any way shape or form that sorcs are gimp is laughable. And who the f says that sorcs can't CC AND DPS? Sorcs have 3ksp, self healing (whether robot or no), potential for top notch dcs, and high (if not sustainable) dps. Not even to mention the incredible casting and cool down speed.

Archmage and Palemaster balanced out alot in my opinion, and now I wait eagerly for the sorc DPS PREs.

Jaid314
11-15-2010, 06:21 PM
Seem to be forgetting Spellsong Trance. I'm sure there's more but I immediately notice that. Also, when mentioning Bard SP, seem to be forgetting that when we're talking CC-specced, we're likely talking Spellsinger II, so cheaper casting costs, and self-SP regen. Two Spellsong Vigors later, the Bard has made up for the Spell Point gap. last i checked, spellsong trance works on sorcerers too. as does the SP regen spell that the spellsinger can give.


Also, take into account that Wizards can "spec" for more. 5 Extra Metamagics, Spell Focus-based PrEs and +2 Int is starting to look a lot tastier than 20% Damage and a Spell Point gap that is slowly closing. yes, wizards can 'spec' for more because of their feats. no, that isn't a reason to declare sorcerers to be gimp, because sorcerer has other advantages.


The point is both other classes are, as of the last few updates, much better equipped for Epics, where that 20% Extra damage is marginalized by the mobs having heavy elemental resistances/absorption/immunities, and ungodly hit points.
if your DCs are high enough to matter, it doesn't much matter how much higher someone else can get them.

don't get me wrong, i'd love to see sorcerers get an option that actually lets us make better use of crowd-control... but you're comparing people who *are( crowd control specialists to your sorcerer which is *not* a crowd control specialist. no kidding they have better DC than you, that's what happens when they specialise and you don't. i'd love to see a capstone that grants +2 to charisma, and which offers something to the non-damage specialised sorcerer. but, that being said, my sorcerer can be good enough, without requiring any massive investment, and if i'm not the most amazing crowd-control build out there, i'm still able to be effective at it to the point where i don't get rejected from groups.

you don't get the sorcerer advantages *and* the wizard advantages, you only get to choose one. having higher DCs is what wizards do in DDO. if you want to stand up and demand that sorcerers get our prestige classes, or get a more interesting capstone for non-damage focused casters, fine. but complaining that the specialists are better in their fields then our generalists? that's just silly.

(oh, and personally i've never found meteor swarm to be the least bit appealing. and i also find it odd coming from people who complain about sorcerer being pigeon-holed into damage-dealing that they just couldn't possibly sacrifice their meteor swarm...)

melkor1702
11-15-2010, 06:35 PM
Our current reality, however, illustrates what I was alluding to above - the "pros" of being a Sorcerer are becoming quickly encroached upon by PrEs that make the inflexibility of a Sorcerer almost unbearable.


If playing your sorc is unbearable and gimped, you could always ungimp yourself by TRing into a Wizard :eek:

Saravis
11-15-2010, 06:52 PM
I'm sorry but I just don't see the point to the op. Wizards may at the moment be stronger, but to say in any way shape or form that sorcs are gimp is laughable. And who the f says that sorcs can't CC AND DPS? Sorcs have 3ksp, self healing (whether robot or no), potential for top notch dcs, and high (if not sustainable) dps. Not even to mention the incredible casting and cool down speed.

Archmage and Palemaster balanced out alot in my opinion, and now I wait eagerly for the sorc DPS PREs.

3ksp isn't inevitably obtainable, you have to sacrifice in other areas to be able to get the additional SP to reach that point. I get the robot self healing, but what other self healing are you talking about? I know wizards have self-healing with Pale Master, but I wasn't familiar with anything distinct to the Sorc. Also in regards to the Robot self-healing, that advantage is balanced by two facts; one: WF have a penalty to charisma, meaning that their cha isn't going to be as high end game as other builds and two: Sorcs are already restricted by the amount of spells they can get and having to reserve spell "slots" specifically for self-healing restricts them even further.

That brings up another "advantage" to Wizards, the previously mentioned disadvantages to WF Caster doesn't apply to a WF Wiz. Cha and Wis are irrelevant to a Wiz and they have the flexibility (and more spell slots) to afford self-healing.

Sorcs damage advantage in DPS is only 20% and the only place I've found my DPS to be comparably sustainable is Shroud


(oh, and personally i've never found meteor swarm to be the least bit appealing. and i also find it odd coming from people who complain about sorcerer being pigeon-holed into damage-dealing that they just couldn't possibly sacrifice their meteor swarm...)
Sorcerer's ARE supposed to be damage dealing based, they're a nuking geared class and have always been, with that said DDO isn't doing too much to support that fact. At high lvl you only have 2 quality damage spells: DBF and MS, the problem with that is that a considerable amount of enemies at end game are either highly resistant or outright immune to Fire. Give us some more damage based spells from the other elements, that will go a long way to distinguishing the Sorc from the Wiz. MS is a love-hate spell with me, I dislike it because of the previously mentioned issue, but I love it because if you don't have a quest with enemies that are resistant or immune to fire, it becomes the best spell available, it technically has an unlimited range, allowing me to hit enemies from very far away with it. Its got arcing capabilities, allowing me to change targets, I can have one or two meteors to hit one target and then I can quickly change direction to hit some other target. Finally, it does the most damage for a one time spell.

Also I'd like to add, doesn't anyone else find it odd, that the only damage spell you really use in Epic is a lvl 4 spell, a spell you obtain at lvl 8. In other words, you're using a spell you got at lvl 8 in END Game content, I just find that a bit peculiar.

Sorcs have been ungimped already ---- it is called ICESTORM.
Oh?

Jaid314
11-15-2010, 07:32 PM
the short version is that ice storm is going to be the new wall of fire. except that it deals bludgeoning damage, so can effect almost everything, and it doesn't do double damage to undead.

that said, i have this crazy feeling that wizards are also going to be able to use that spell... so i'm not entirely certain how the claim can be made that ice storm will make sorcerer a dps-based class.

anyways, looking at the sorcerer paths they have available, only one of them is dps. one of them is specifically enchantment-focused, the other is... utility? generalist?

frankly, i really wish the proposed prestige lines were going to be more along the lines of the direction those paths are claiming to go. i would be much happier with 3 prestige enhancements (one for damage, one for enchantment, one for... ummm... other? non-enchantment-based crowd control? non-mind control-based enchantment?) than with their proposed elemental savant x 4 + acolyte of the skin (not even sure what the focus of acolyte is supposed to be, actually. i'm not sure i'll be interested enough in it if they do make one, unless it turns out to be assuming the devil/demon in question is a succubus and they make it an enchantment-focused PrE. guess i might take savant if it grants elemental immunities and such.)

but i still maintain that it's absurd to complain that the person who specialised is better than the person who didn't specialise, within that specialisation.

elricken
11-15-2010, 08:19 PM
3ksp isn't inevitably obtainable, you have to sacrifice in other areas to be able to get the additional SP to reach that point. I get the robot self healing, but what other self healing are you talking about? I know wizards have self-healing with Pale Master, but I wasn't familiar with anything distinct to the Sorc. Also in regards to the Robot self-healing, that advantage is balanced by two facts; one: WF have a penalty to charisma, meaning that their cha isn't going to be as high end game as other builds and two: Sorcs are already restricted by the amount of spells they can get and having to reserve spell "slots" specifically for self-healing restricts them even further.

3k sp is attainable with little to no sacrifice. Maybe you should do your research before calling me out? No mental toughness, and a gs sp item my sorc sits at 2950 without any sp enhancements.

Self healing is attainable through heal scrolls and/or UMD, which just happens to be powered by CHA.
Heal scrolls can provide ample self healing through any content if you practice damage mitigation.

The spell slot issue is trivial IMO, there just are not enough useful spells to make it a sore disadvantage.

As far as spell slots for self healing goes, every sorcerer fleshy or not IMO should make room for reconstruct. It is extremely useful whether you are fleshy or no. Perhaps with HORC on the rise as the new dps race it could be eventually ruled out.




That brings up another "advantage" to Wizards, the previously mentioned disadvantages to WF Caster doesn't apply to a WF Wiz. Cha and Wis are irrelevant to a Wiz and they have the flexibility (and more spell slots) to afford self-healing.

Sorcs damage advantage in DPS is only 20% and the only place I've found my DPS to be comparably sustainable is Shroud

I don't believe in WF sorcs, I like my fleshies. Not saying they suck or anything, but you can obtain reliable self healing and exceptional dcs on either variant. I just like the +2-4 cha I get as a squishy.

Casters can have decent DPS in some raiding situations, the shroud (as you stated is one example).

However even tho the +20% damage from the capstone is perhaps less than the +2 casting stat of the Wiz capstone, it is very useful in a huge variety of situations. From nukes on bosses to soloing epics/amrath an extra 20% dps is very nice.

Deathseeker
11-15-2010, 08:32 PM
I think currently Sorcs need a bit of love, but considering they don't have their PrE yet that makes sense. In fact, I think their PrE is going to have to be very well thought out as if it's too good they'll richochet back in front of Wizards, whereas if it isn't real exciting there will be some very disappointed Sorcs. Gonna be tricky for the devs to balance it properly.

Curious to see how this plays out...

TheDearLeader
11-15-2010, 09:46 PM
You really should be unsurprised that a specialist archmage with significant feat and AP investment is better at using that particular school than the generalist sorcerer is. You should also realize that doing so is not an argument that sorcs are gimped.

I never argue sorcs are gimped. In fact, I only use the word gimp once.

Significant Feat investment? Perhaps you're forgetting that unlike the Sorcerer, Wizard has five more of these feats to invest. Using a Human Wizard vs Sorc as an example, an investment of a single feat in any given direction is 12.5% of a Sorcerer's total feats, but only 7.7% of a Wizards total feats. If you take for granted that Toughness, Empower, and Maximize should be on every pure arcane's feat list, the "investment" is decidedly less feat intensive for a Wizard.

All gear aside, an Archmage will have higher DCs than a Sorc in at least one spell school. The five feat difference, however, means that an Enchantment Archmage can also grab another school on the side to specialize in, or have some other Metamagic that many arcanes may not pick up due to only being situationally useful, such as Enlarge.


At this point, it seems to me that for poorly-equipped toons in epics, wizard is better than sorc: The archmage can easily get to very high enchantment DCs even without great equipment. If the characters are well-equipped, the difference in DCs between sorc and archmage are irrelevant because the mobs are all failing the saves anyway. Then the 50% extra sp and bonus damage vs. bosses makes sorcs superior.

Cheers,
Kernal

Last I checked, my Sorc didn't fall out of the sky, already level 20 and with decent gear. If a Sorc starts Epics soon after reaching level 20, their DCs will not yet be pumped up to the point of "mobs all failing the saves anyway".

50% extra SP means little when it takes double to triple the SP to kill/disable the same number of mobs.

What mobs are Sorcs fighting in Epic where the 20% Extra damage is so noticeable? Even with 2900 SP, minus buffs, minus whatever it took SP wise to get us to the boss.


None of you posters even discuss the number one advantage sorcs have over wizards and that is casting speed. Most of the best sorcs out there cite that as the reason why they prefer sorcs over wizards.

I do like faster casting times and cooldowns. However, as mentioned, there is still ample time for a Sorcerer's spells to get interrupted.


last i checked, spellsong trance works on sorcerers too. as does the SP regen spell that the spellsinger can give.

The topic was Bard DCs and SP pools versus that of a Sorcerer. Bards can now self-buff with two different things Sorcerers cannot to increase both. Don't take what was said out of context.


yes, wizards can 'spec' for more because of their feats. no, that isn't a reason to declare sorcerers to be gimp, because sorcerer has other advantages.

The advantages being faster casting, lower cooldowns, a higher SP pool, and 20% Capstone damage. The usefulness of all four are marginalized in Epics, especially when compared to what Archmage can get a toon.

Again, I made no declaration that Sorcerers were "gimp". My stance is that, as of current, Archmage 20 is more advantageous to a party running epic quests than Sorcerer 20, and that I would agree that Sorcerer getting some loving soon would be... nice.



if your DCs are high enough to matter, it doesn't much matter how much higher someone else can get them.

And I see a lot of this going on. "Just good enough", "high enough to matter", "sufficient".

Epic Sands =/= Epic House P =/= Epic Von =/= Epic House K/D =/= Epic Devil Assault. All Epics are not created equal. Just because someone can Mass Hold the Rats in Epic Tide Turns doesn't mean they're grabbing the Drow Divines in Epic OoB, or Epic Devil Assault.

Last I checked, when I hover over my toolbar and look at my spells, none of their DCs have "high enough to matter". They have a number. And Wizards just got a way to up that number, as well as up their spell points, and a cheaper way to use some of those spell points. Asking that Sorcerers get a little love to stay competitive is not a crime.


don't get me wrong, i'd love to see sorcerers get an option that actually lets us make better use of crowd-control... but you're comparing people who *are( crowd control specialists to your sorcerer which is *not* a crowd control specialist. no kidding they have better DC than you, that's what happens when they specialise and you don't. i'd love to see a capstone that grants +2 to charisma, and which offers something to the non-damage specialised sorcerer. but, that being said, my sorcerer can be good enough, without requiring any massive investment, and if i'm not the most amazing crowd-control build out there, i'm still able to be effective at it to the point where i don't get rejected from groups.

You hate capital letters, don't you? Man that's hard to read. I've never been ejected from a group, nor am I implying Sorcs suddenly will.


you don't get the sorcerer advantages *and* the wizard advantages, you only get to choose one. having higher DCs is what wizards do in DDO. if you want to stand up and demand that sorcerers get our prestige classes, or get a more interesting capstone for non-damage focused casters, fine. but complaining that the specialists are better in their fields then our generalists? that's just silly.

And when, suddenly, are sorcs generalists? I keep seeing this. Our specialty is (supposedly) DPS. However, DC-based spells are ignored because unless you specialize in their schools (transmutation and evocation), the Wiz will end up doing more damage as a failed save does more damage than a 20% more powerful successful save. And...again, as said multiple times, the huge amount of HP Epic mobs possess make the "oh, I'm DPS" option less appealing, as it means a higher SP drain than cast a CC Spell and done.


(oh, and personally i've never found meteor swarm to be the least bit appealing. and i also find it odd coming from people who complain about sorcerer being pigeon-holed into damage-dealing that they just couldn't possibly sacrifice their meteor swarm...)

Epic Dragon's Eye Clickie + Eardweller + Major Fire Lore, I hear, make for tasty Meteor Swarms. I wouldn't know, as I've not been lucky enough to get an Eardweller yet, and I trained out Meteor Swarm for Mass Hold Monster long ago. I agree that without the clickies, its a silly spell to keep.


If playing your sorc is unbearable and gimped, you could always ungimp yourself by TRing into a Wizard :eek:

.. I've re-read my posts several times trying to figure out where I specifically said "Sorcs are gimp". I even used the CTRL+F Find function. Still not seeing it.

That said, I've certainly considered TRing into Wizard. However, I think the Sorc Past lives are kinda lackluster, so I'd much rather just start a new toon.

Saravis
11-15-2010, 10:27 PM
3k sp is attainable with little to no sacrifice. Maybe you should do your research before calling me out? No mental toughness, and a gs sp item my sorc sits at 2950 without any sp enhancements.

Self healing is attainable through heal scrolls and/or UMD, which just happens to be powered by CHA.
Heal scrolls can provide ample self healing through any content if you practice damage mitigation.

The spell slot issue is trivial IMO, there just are not enough useful spells to make it a sore disadvantage.

Cool your jets man, this is a discussion about a game, no need to take it so seriously. I'm curious how you got to that number. I have archmagi, the entire SP boost enhancement line, +50 sp from GS, mental toughness, and 34 cha, but only 2833. When I do get +100 from GS that'll bring me up to 3033, but I'd like to know where exactly are you getting all that SP from if you don't have SP enh and no MT?

I would have liked to get UMD, but Int was a dump stat for me, could only afford just enough to get Diplo and Concent.

Trivial? Considering that earlier in this topic people were wondering why Sorcs don't normally pick up hold monster, I would hardly call it trivial. There's also a lot of other spells I would love to pick up for certain situations but find myself having to pass because of other spells with a higher priority.

elricken
11-15-2010, 10:41 PM
Cool your jets man, this is a discussion about a game, no need to take it so seriously. I'm curious how you got to that number. I have archmagi, the entire SP boost enhancement line, +50 sp from GS, mental toughness, and 34 cha, but only 2833. When I do get +100 from GS that'll bring me up to 3033, but I'd like to know where exactly are you getting all that SP from if you don't have SP enh and no MT?

I would have liked to get UMD, but Int was a dump stat for me, could only afford just enough to get Diplo and Concent.

Trivial? Considering that earlier in this topic people were wondering why Sorcs don't normally pick up hold monster, I would hardly call it trivial. There's also a lot of other spells I would love to pick up for certain situations but find myself having to pass because of other spells with a higher priority.

I said trivial IMO, which means I consider meteor swarm to be total junk and have no problem scrolling GH etc.

There is absolutely no reason not to have UMD on a sorc.... I would highly suggest doing an lr and picking it up immediatly. Get rid of diplo (I personally never use it, but some people like it so whatev) or pick up 2 more int. With a GS cha skillz sp item you can be no failing rez and heal scrolls in no time.

I can't give you an exact breakdown because my sorc is in the process of a multi-tr atm. But with +300 from GS and +400 from archmagi and 38ish cha I was at like 2900. When my cha went up a couple more tiers it was ~2950. I can provide screenshot proof if necessary lol.

EDIT: I also consider mental toughness to be complete and total junk on a sorc, they are so damn feat starved.

Doxmaster
11-15-2010, 10:43 PM
I would have liked to get UMD, but Int was a dump stat for me, could only afford just enough to get Diplo and Concent.


You chose poorly; gave up UMD to diplo...

Riorik
11-15-2010, 10:48 PM
Our current reality, however, illustrates what I was alluding to above - the "pros" of being a Sorcerer are becoming quickly encroached upon by PrEs that make the inflexibility of a Sorcerer almost unbearable.


I think you're missing out on something. Sorcerors were always intended to have limits -- based on not being as flexible. It appears that it's only now becoming a real limit, in some cases. To me, it seems like it's WAI.

TheDearLeader
11-15-2010, 11:00 PM
I think you're missing out on something. Sorcerors were always intended to have limits -- based on not being as flexible. It appears that it's only now becoming a real limit, in some cases. To me, it seems like it's WAI.

What's up with the Sorc hate?

I'm not asking they nerf Archmage. Total /golfclap to whichever of the Devs/Dev Teams made it. Its good, its nice, I like it.

Now, Wizzies have Pale Master. They have Archmage, which is actually like, multiple PrEs in one.

Its not unreasonable to ask that Sorcerers get a little lovin, as well.

Jaid314
11-15-2010, 11:48 PM
if you're choosing your abilities to cover the most wide variety of areas possible, that makes you a generalist. for example, a fighter who takes feats to boost both slashing and bludgeoning, tripping and stunning, keeps a reasonably good intimidate stat, and invests their APs into both offensive and defensive enhancements is a generalist. one who focuses almost exclusively on, say, stunning blow and trip, and would be better at it, would be a specialist. one who focuses on pure DPS with no investment elsewhere would be a specialist. and one who focuses on raising AC, saves, and shield blocking DR + intimidate would be a specialist.

so... if you see a sorcerer who has some feats/spells for damage dealing, some feats/spells for buffing, some feats/spells for debuffing, and some feats/spells for crowd control... guess what? generalist. the sorcerer is not exceptionally well-designed for being a generalist, but the way most people build their sorcerer is to be a generalist. they build their sorcerer to be reasonably good at crowd control (but will occasionally have a slightly lower DC or won't have the perfect spell for the job), reasonably good at buffing (but will occasionally not have a spell that is situationally useful, like true seeing), and reasonably good at dps (but often have limited options, usually only dealing a couple of damage types at best), and reasonably good at debuffing (but often won't have spells like bestow curse, crushing despair, mind fog, etc, which can all be situationally useful)

so... in all likelihood, yes, *your* sorcerer is a generalist (so is mine, actually, possibly more so than most). the sorcerer class in general is not a generalist class, per se, and is certainly not as good at being a generalist as a wizard. but that's how most people build and design their sorcerer.

what the sorcerer _class_ *is* built for specialisation is the damage spells. +20% can add up pretty quick. and why, may i ask, do sorcerers not have good evocation DCs? because they invest in other things. take the two spell penetration feats many sorcerers take. turn those into evocation focus and greater evocation focus. take the extend or heighten spell feat most sorcerers take. turn that into enlarge spell so they can hit things from further away, or the quicken feat so they can't be interrupted. take the toughness feat that many sorcerers take. turn that into another feat that boosts their ability to nuke. pretty soon, you'll likely find that the damage-dealing specialised sorcerer is in fact better than the damage-dealing specialised wizard.

would a damage-specialised sorcerer be a viable addition to the party? personally, i'm not convinced they would be, at this point, and that *is* a problem. our damage-dealing is, in general, sub-bar as compared to pretty much any well-built melee, and hit point inflation is such that we don't get enough spell points (even with our boosted SP) to use that for dps unless you have an extremely well-geared sorcerer. i don't see this as a problem with sorcerer, however, but rather a problem with spellcasting in general. but then again, this is also true to PnP, in a way; the most powerful spells in the game have never been the nukes.

i do think it would be nice to see an option for the sorcerer that isn't focused on damage-dealing. but i'm not really pushing for any changes to the sorcerer, i think that the sorcerer as it stands is fine; i'd just like to see some prestige enhancements come out for it (ideally i'd like the savant enhancements to actually be both significantly different from each other, and also not utterly worthless for anyone who isn't a damage-specialised sorcerer) so that i have some cool toys to play with. it certainly doesn't need "fixing" per se... but i do think it needs greater options for specialisation.

TheDearLeader
11-16-2010, 12:03 AM
*totally snip*

I can't read anything else you write. No caps = no care.

I'll assume it reads something like :

If you ask for something to be improved, then you must be doing it wrong. My toons are awesome, the forums are a great place for me to be macho about everything, nothing needs to be changed.

So, yeah. I already said my piece, and I'm assuming somewhere in that massive amount of letters put together, you've said yours. Done with this.

Saravis
11-16-2010, 12:49 AM
I said trivial IMO, which means I consider meteor swarm to be total junk and have no problem scrolling GH etc.

There is absolutely no reason not to have UMD on a sorc.... I would highly suggest doing an lr and picking it up immediatly. Get rid of diplo (I personally never use it, but some people like it so whatev) or pick up 2 more int. With a GS cha skillz sp item you can be no failing rez and heal scrolls in no time.

I can't give you an exact breakdown because my sorc is in the process of a multi-tr atm. But with +300 from GS and +400 from archmagi and 38ish cha I was at like 2900. When my cha went up a couple more tiers it was ~2950. I can provide screenshot proof if necessary lol.

EDIT: I also consider mental toughness to be complete and total junk on a sorc, they are so damn feat starved.
You answered my question, TR. So apparently I was mistaken it doesn't take sacrifice it just takes multiple TRs is all. :P

You chose poorly; gave up UMD to diplo...
No thanks already did an LR, I love diplo it has saved my ass on many occasions and is far more reliable than a "chance" to successfully heal yourself with a heal scroll that you use up if you fail the chance.


Evil guy is smacking me, losing health:

Risk using a heal scroll, IF it works evil guy is still smacking me, and if it doesn't... VS Evil guy go attack that guy over there, evil guy no longer smacking me :)

FluffyCalico
11-16-2010, 12:53 AM
I'm not sure how much ungimping of sorcs for epics they can do...since alot of sorcs are already soloing many of the epics.

elricken
11-16-2010, 12:56 AM
You answered my question, TR. So apparently I was mistaken it doesn't take sacrifice it just takes multiple TRs is all. :P

No thanks already did an LR, I love diplo it has saved my ass on many occasions and is far more reliable than a "chance" to successfully heal yourself with a heal scroll that you use up if you fail the chance.


Evil guy is smacking me, losing health:

Risk using a heal scroll, IF it works evil guy is still smacking me, and if it doesn't... VS Evil guy go attack that guy over there, evil guy no longer smacking me :)

BEFORE I TR"D I HAD ~3k SP

Big letters for comprehension.

And ya fleshie sorc without UMD is next to useless. CHUG THOSE CSW POTS! !!111111~ (Sarcasm, again for comprehension)

And I will again state IMO, diplo is silly. As I often WANT aggro on my flesh caster.

Oh and how is using a heal scroll a risk?

YOU CAN GET 100% USAGE!!

And if you are a halfway decent caster EVIL DUDES OR BBEGS types are hardly if ever going to be melee you (unless you want them to, guards and sp/hp proc ftw!).

With a decent concentration score most non-epic mobs are not going to interrupt you, if you get a really high score and practice DAMAGE MITIGATION they should even go off without a hitch in epics or against those pesky EVIL DUDES (AND BBEGS!).

YOU ARE GAINING HP - HOW GAINING HP RISKY???

EDIT: Tried to be a little less blunt. Dunno if I succeeded.

rodallec
11-16-2010, 01:03 AM
its also nice to pop a quick heal scroll between fights... especially if soloing no?
self sufficiency ftw

nucphyschem
11-16-2010, 01:06 AM
If playing your sorc is unbearable and gimped, you could always ungimp yourself by TRing into a Wizard :eek:

+1 For a truely funny idea. :)

nucphyschem
11-16-2010, 01:23 AM
One other that has been failed to mention about the Wiz PrE Archmage in this thread is that by very definition an Archmage Wiz will have higher DC in their chosen field of magic than most anything out there. Since the definition of an Archmage is

They are typically portrayed as people who have, one way or another, gained the ability to influence the world around them in ways modern physics does not readily permit. This usually draws upon unusual energy sources, ranging from personal will-power to ambient arcane energy to naturally occurring ley-lines. In almost all cases they are a subset of wizards, magicians, druids, or other profession which uses said energy, albeit typically a highly disciplined and usually substantially more powerful and/or influential subset.

Also

In Dungeons & Dragons, archmage is the name of a prestige class whose features are documented in the 3rd edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. This prestige class was updated in 3.5 and included as a stock PrC in the Dungeon Master's Guide (the core ruleset for D&D). Their powers allow them to perform feats of magic available to few others, but at the cost of some of their spells. The class was updated again in 4th Edition, as an epic destiny available to characters over 20th level. Now focused on reusing spells and using them more often, archmages can also exist as an arcane spirit. At 30th level, they are said to retreat into seclusion to study magic, eventually merging with the singular Demispell.

Information courtesy of Wikipedia

FluffyCalico
11-16-2010, 01:32 AM
In Dungeons & Dragons, archmage is the name of a prestige class whose features are documented in the 3rd edition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting. This prestige class was updated in 3.5 and included as a stock PrC in the Dungeon Master's Guide (the core ruleset for D&D). Their powers allow them to perform feats of magic available to few others, but at the cost of some of their spells. The class was updated again in 4th Edition, as an epic destiny available to characters over 20th level. Now focused on reusing spells and using them more often, archmages can also exist as an arcane spirit. At 30th level, they are said to retreat into seclusion to study magic, eventually merging with the singular Demispell.

Information courtesy of Wikipedia

So is dragon disciple but sorcs don't have that prestigue line now do they. In fact they don't have any because after 4 years of talking about them DDO still hasn't made one for them.

kernal42
11-16-2010, 01:54 AM
Last I checked, my Sorc didn't fall out of the sky, already level 20 and with decent gear. If a Sorc starts Epics soon after reaching level 20, their DCs will not yet be pumped up to the point of "mobs all failing the saves anyway".


Yes, this is true. It is also irrelevant.

All of your arguments indicate that you think sorcerers should equal or better than wizards in all scenarios. Most of the disagreeing posts suggest that there's balance because sometimes wizards are better, and sometimes sorcs are better. My post, for example, presented one scenario where sorcs were preferred, and one situation where wizards would shine.

Your cherry-picking of specific instances where sorcs are particularly weak is transparent and fails to convince anybody of your point.

Cheers,
Kernal

Inspire
11-16-2010, 02:00 AM
lol

Yep.

TheDearLeader
11-16-2010, 02:24 AM
Yes, this is true. It is also irrelevant.

Relevance is subjective. I wouldn't have mentioned it if I did not find it to be so. You responded to it, so it was obviously relevant enough to call irrelevant. :D


All of your arguments indicate that you think sorcerers should equal or better than wizards in all scenarios.

Funny, don't remember saying that.


Most of the disagreeing posts suggest that there's balance because sometimes wizards are better, and sometimes sorcs are better.

There was already "balance". Then Wizards got PrEs, Sorcs have not changed. So either you're saying that you hate both Wizard PrEs, which sure is your opinion, or we're having some logical limbo here.


My post, for example, presented one scenario where sorcs were preferred, and one situation where wizards would shine.

I re-read your only other post in this thread. I fail to see one scenario, more less two. So.. no, you didn't? :)


Your cherry-picking of specific instances where sorcs are particularly weak is transparent and fails to convince anybody of your point.

Cheers,
Kernal

Well, I'm glad you can speak for "anybody". And considering you're not even sure what you posted, I'm not sure you know what my "point" even is.

Cheers I guess?
McPhail.

Doxmaster
11-16-2010, 03:25 AM
No thanks already did an LR, I love diplo it has saved my ass on many occasions and is far more reliable than a "chance" to successfully heal yourself with a heal scroll that you use up if you fail the chance.

Evil guy is smacking me, losing health:

Risk using a heal scroll, IF it works evil guy is still smacking me, and if it doesn't... VS Evil guy go attack that guy over there, evil guy no longer smacking me :)

Well, to each his own i suppose. However, the comparison is not quite fair; it is more like this:

Evil guy is smacking you, you are losing health.

Risk using a heal scroll with a 25% failure (With no items boosting it. You have +15 or so from your cha score and 10 ranks. that is 35. you need 40 for that heal scroll. if you roll anything better than a 5 you are good, so 25% chance. If you have greater heroism, in scroll or spell form you get +4 so you only fail on a 1. The concentration check might fail, but you only have 2 skills and both are maxed. Concentration is one of these.)
VS
Roll diplomacy. If you succeed, the evil guy will pause and if someone else has hit him, he will go attack them instead. If you fail, he is still smacking you. If no one else has hit him, he will continue smacking you. (if diplomacy has opposite requirements to intimidate, you may need a fairly high total to succees. Luckily, you have 20 ranks in this, +15 from charisma and +4 from greater heroism. )

*The iffy thing is, if no one has hit him at all, he wont lock onto anyone else. It memory serves, diplomacy drops its user to the bottom of the aggro list; if no one else has hit him, you are the only item on that list. The bottom AND top. Of course, this is going by memory, so if diplomacy doesnt work off the aggro list thing, more power to ya.*
At any rate, both methods have multiple chaces for failure, but one method allows you to heal others, help more in quests, raise the cleric if he died from a trap or something, use items you shouldnt be able to use...

Mister_Peace
11-16-2010, 04:10 AM
I believe a successful Diplo check will drop you to the bottom of the aggro list, and the aggro list includes all your allies within range of the monster.

but let's see if we can get a MrCow to give us the definitive answer ...

Nick_RC
11-16-2010, 06:11 AM
Lol this thread makes me laugh. My initial thoughts are:

1. The OP has a 'less than effective'(being nice) sorc with no UMD for self hjealing and needs to work on his dc's. If ur not landing stuff regularly and feeling gimped in epic...well you probably are. Go grind some equipment reconsider ur choices and try again.
2. Has unrealistically high expectations of what his beloved sorceror should do compared to a wizard. Of course they are gonna have better DC's its a given. The devs finally got it right and made it meaningful to be a wizard as until fairly recently sorc was by far and away the min-max way to go.

Saying that I DO feel sorcs could get some love and if Ice storm goes live as is thats a damn good start. Its not evidence that they could use some love but consider the following:

1. Il take pug wizards (Chronosphere atm as the CC is important comes to mind) over sorcs for certain quests because I can tell them exactly what to bring and theyl likely do it better as I cant trust the equipment a pugger will bring to the table.
2. I felt alot stonger on my wiz than my sorc -as someone who has a good knowledge of the spell deck I really think my personal playstyle has changed to where a wizard and its versatility suits me more than brute force of a sorc. Maybe this isnt a change in the game but more a change in me.
3. And I think most importantly at the moment is that Wizzies have more spell slots that they can change at will. This never used to be a problem for sorcs as you could just dps through everything and be done with it. Now they have to compromise DPS spells for utility and CC.

For example

Level 9 Mass Hold, Energy drain are the main ones in epic so they can choose either : Meteor Swarm OR Wail. Both are nice options not easily given up.
Level 8 Ottos, Polar Ray, then Trap the soul or Inced cloud. Both nice situational options not easily given up.
Level 7 (This is where it gets more noticeable) DBF, Dance Ball and Waves(still working it seems) are mandatory choices leaving out prismatic spray (uber for PL sorcs with good evoc dcs)
Level 6 Reconstruct, Symbol of Persausion, Flesh to Stone, Disintergrate, Acid Fog, chain lightning and even GH (for the cheap peeps who dont wanna buy scrolls). So many good choices at this level.
Level 5 Pro energy, Ball lightning, cone of cold, Cloudkill, Break enchantement, Cyclonic blast
Level 4 Ice storm, Firewall, DD, and alot more good choices.

I think this is why I prefer wizzy atm because there ability to tailor their spell decks for nearly the first time is actually becoming important in my mind.

Solution??? -Maybe increase sorc nuking power(single cast not dots so much). Not to the point of GH days but more so that they can maintain a DPS spell load out and not be quite as concerned with CC as they become killers rather than cc.

For the record: Its laughable that sorcs are 'Gimp' in epics. They just need to be done right is all. My personal preference atm is wizard(and from a long time sorc player this is substantial in itself) but sorcs are far far from being gimp.

Irinis
11-16-2010, 07:34 AM
Seem to be forgetting Spellsong Trance. I'm sure there's more but I immediately notice that. Also, when mentioning Bard SP, seem to be forgetting that when we're talking CC-specced, we're likely talking Spellsinger II, so cheaper casting costs, and self-SP regen. Two Spellsong Vigors later, the Bard has made up for the Spell Point gap.

Also, take into account that Wizards can "spec" for more. 5 Extra Metamagics, Spell Focus-based PrEs and +2 Int is starting to look a lot tastier than 20% Damage and a Spell Point gap that is slowly closing.

The point is both other classes are, as of the last few updates, much better equipped for Epics, where that 20% Extra damage is marginalized by the mobs having heavy elemental resistances/absorption/immunities, and ungodly hit points.

Uhh, two Spellsong Vigors does not equal 1000 sp. I don't know what you're smoking... but I wish the devs were smoking it.

Xithos
11-16-2010, 07:42 AM
Wizards sucked hard for a long time in this game and the developers finally gave the powergamers good reasons to play a wizard as opposed to a Sorc and I think that is a good thing. After the epic mob saving throw nerf wizards gained the upperhand because a high DC wiz can spam mass hold and symbol of persuasion throughout the epic quest while the melee chew the mobs to pieces or the mobs kill each other, but its not like a Sorceror with good gear and DCs cannot manage although they are less effective.

ravengerpl
11-16-2010, 07:55 AM
Sorcs really needs some love.

Selfhealing
Wiz - repair (WF), palemaster, scrolls/wands (if you take rogue lvl).
Sorc - scrolls/wands, possibly repair but if you are WF you have -2 CHA and lose 1 DC.

Dmg
Wizards can take same enhancements as sorcs, they lose only 20% from sorc capstone.

Spell Penetration/DC
5 more feats for wizard, capstone, lich form.

Items
Napkin - INT, Eardwaller - INT, Epic Staff of Inner Sight - INT.

TOD rings
Water savant - +1 exc WIS - useless
Fire - +1 exc STR - useless
Air - +1 exc DEX -useless
Earth - +1 exc CON

Archmage - +1 exc INT
Wild - Confounding Enchantment
Pale master - +1 exc INT

PREs
Wiz 2, sorc 0.

joneb1999
11-16-2010, 08:49 AM
Sorcs really needs some love.

Selfhealing
Wiz - repair (WF), palemaster, scrolls/wands (if you take rogue lvl).
Sorc - scrolls/wands, possibly repair but if you are WF you have -2 CHA and lose 1 DC.

Dmg
Wizards can take same enhancements as sorcs, they lose only 20% from sorc capstone.

Spell Penetration/DC
5 more feats for wizard, capstone, lich form.

Items
Napkin - INT, Eardwaller - INT, Epic Staff of Inner Sight - INT.

TOD rings
Water savant - +1 exc WIS - useless
Fire - +1 exc STR - useless
Air - +1 exc DEX -useless
Earth - +1 exc CON

Archmage - +1 exc INT
Wild - Confounding Enchantment
Pale master - +1 exc INT

PREs
Wiz 2, sorc 0.

Looking at this breakdown I agree Sorces need some love. Not a huge lot but for players who dont all have the most elite gear it would make a big difference in epic where the best gear is what makes all the difference over any "innate" build and where probably a sorc without the benefits of such equipment is gimp (though never played a sorc at epic level so assuming from what I read). It even seems though a lot of the great items as above are no good for the sorc.

Thrudh
11-16-2010, 08:51 AM
I think you're missing out on something. Sorcerors were always intended to have limits -- based on not being as flexible. It appears that it's only now becoming a real limit, in some cases. To me, it seems like it's WAI.

Exactly... For a LONG time, sorcerors were considered the best choice by most players...

I love being able to swap spells as a wizard, but for a long time, there was little need to do this at end-game so sorcs didn't suffer at all from this limitation... There wasn't a lot of crowd-control going on at end-game, so sorcs didn't suffer from having fewer feats and lower DCs.

This is the first time in 4.5 years that wizards are actually considered superior by a significant number of players... It's refreshing.

Well, the sorcs PrEs still need to come out... So the pendulum will swing back the other way... So what are you suggesting? What would you like sorcs to have? Do you really think they should be able to hit the same DCs as wizards AND do 30% more damage with their DPS spells?

What's a fair balance?

I tell you what... I'll give you matching DCs if we can get 5-6 more GOOD situational spells... I want spell-swapping to be a real asset for certain quests (like Ooze Puppet used to be for Enter the Kobold)

kernal42
11-16-2010, 09:57 AM
Apologies for the long post.


Relevance is subjective. I wouldn't have mentioned it if I did not find it to be so. You responded to it, so it was obviously relevant enough to call irrelevant. :D

Certainly fair.




All of your arguments indicate that you think sorcerers should equal or better than wizards in all scenarios.
Funny, don't remember saying that.

<snip>
No, but the indication is there. For example, in the above post you compare:
DBF dps: Sorc vs. Evocation Archmage
Disintegrate dps: Sorc vs. Transmutation Archmage
The whole "mass hold monster" argument further comes from the comparison:
MHM: Sorc vs. Enchantment Archmage

It should be evident that no wizard can fully specialize in three schools; many cannot even partially spec. in a second. So in any realistic scenario, the archmage certainly will perform better in the school of specialization (with significant feat/AP investment, of course), while the wizard and sorc will perform similarly when casting spells of any other school. Then the sorc gets a boost of ~1k sp.



There was already "balance". Then Wizards got PrEs, Sorcs have not changed. So either you're saying that you hate both Wizard PrEs, which sure is your opinion, or we're having some logical limbo here.

Not at all. I, and many others, judging from past forum posts, considered wizards to be distinctly weaker than sorcerers before the introduction of the various PrEs. The original introduction of Pale Master was generally unimpressive, so it did not change this status. With the modification of Pale Master and the introduction of Archmage, both wizard PrEs are now quite competitive with sorcerers, all with differing strengths and weaknesses.



I re-read your only other post in this thread. I fail to see one scenario, more less two. So.. no, you didn't? :)

1:
it seems to me that for poorly-equipped toons in epics, wizard is better than sorc: The archmage can easily get to very high enchantment DCs even without great equipment.
2:

If the characters are well-equipped, the difference in DCs between sorc and archmage are irrelevant because the mobs are all failing the saves anyway. Then the 50% extra sp and bonus damage vs. bosses makes sorcs superior.

So...yes I did.



Well, I'm glad you can speak for "anybody". And considering you're not even sure what you posted, I'm not sure you know what my "point" even is.

A snarky attitude brings nothing productive to a discussion.

Cheers!
Kernal

Creeper
11-16-2010, 10:07 AM
Do any of the people here who are saying that Sorcerers are gimped ever play Sorcerers?

BladedThesis
11-16-2010, 10:23 AM
I have a 20 sorc that I run epics with and to a degree I agree w/ the original poster. Overall I get by just fine, sometimes I have to cast mass hold monster twice but for the most part it sticks. Combined w/ Otto's Irresistable I can CC most everything easily. I dont feel that my damage is that much higher than a wizzy and our sp pools are becoming closer and closer. There is a little imbalance there but it's not drastic and certainly doesn't make us "gimpy". I would simply like to see some sorc PrE's to give more damage and/or more sp to make up for my lower dc's and less metamagics. By no means can a sorc not run epics though. We certainly have the sp to hit MHM a couple times. Btw my enchantment DC is 34, w/ item and no feats. Thats a pretty low DC and I can hit MHM most of the time in epics.

fuzzy1guy
11-16-2010, 10:32 AM
The major drawbacks for wizard are SP total, 20% less damage, casting time.

quicken can cut the casting time somewhat.
sp? *gulp* ddo store pot. sp refilled!
20% less damge? *gulp* sp refilled!


The major drawbacks to sorc are no ability really to change spells as needed. Much lower dc than a comparably equipped wizard. FAR less feats for specialization and survivability options.

Can't fix any of those at all and be anywhere equal to a wizard without giving up something major that the wizard gets to keep.

so it comes down to
wizard: spend some free TP, casting time
sorc: can't fix it for any coin.


Those sorc prestiges better be awesome.

Creeper
11-16-2010, 10:38 AM
I have a 20 sorc that I run epics with and to a degree I agree w/ the original poster. Overall I get by just fine, sometimes I have to cast mass hold monster twice but for the most part it sticks. Combined w/ Otto's Irresistable I can CC most everything easily. I dont feel that my damage is that much higher than a wizzy and our sp pools are becoming closer and closer. There is a little imbalance there but it's not drastic and certainly doesn't make us "gimpy". I would simply like to see some sorc PrE's to give more damage and/or more sp to make up for my lower dc's and less metamagics. By no means can a sorc not run epics though. We certainly have the sp to hit MHM a couple times. Btw my enchantment DC is 34, w/ item and no feats. Thats a pretty low DC and I can hit MHM most of the time in epics.

So, you want:

The same DC and Spell Pen as an Archmage?
More damage?
More SP?

Draccus
11-16-2010, 10:38 AM
I'm not sure how much ungimping of sorcs for epics they can do...since alot of sorcs are already soloing many of the epics.

Exactly. I was shocked when I read the post title and thought "Surely someone isn't actually asking for the most ridiculously overpowered class in the game to be "ungimped."

And someone did. /boggle

fuzzy1guy
11-16-2010, 10:44 AM
Personally i'd like to see sorc get a BIG boost to spell pen. +5 +6 or so.

And damage thru the elemental line of choice.



You can keep your dc.. Sorc gets the raw power. :)

As fitting the diffrences inherent in wiz vs. sorc.

Wizard studied forever and has the skill of the spell DC down pat.
But their skill is learned and not inherent. Far more skill. Far less power.

Sorc is raw magic and blasts thru almost all spell resistance with ease. And deals the massive damage in their element of specialization.
Their power is raw, uncontrolled and unstudied. And unstoppable. But can never have the dc of a wizard.

Wizard has skill. Sorcerer blasts it until it stops moving.

Wizard uses magic. Sorcerer IS magic.

Creeper
11-16-2010, 11:39 AM
You can keep your dc.. Sorc gets the raw power. :)


Thanks for that.

TheDearLeader
11-16-2010, 11:57 AM
No, but the indication is there. For example, in the above post you compare:
DBF dps: Sorc vs. Evocation Archmage
Disintegrate dps: Sorc vs. Transmutation Archmage
The whole "mass hold monster" argument further comes from the comparison:
MHM: Sorc vs. Enchantment Archmage

It should be evident that no wizard can fully specialize in three schools; many cannot even partially spec. in a second.

Excuse me? Wizards have five more feats that a sorcerer. A Wizard can have every feat that my Sorcerer does, +SF and GSF for two Schools, and SF for a third School. Combine that with Archmage, and that's one school with +5 DC on a Sorc, one school with +3 DC on a Sorc, one school with +2 DC on a Sorc, and every other school with +1 DC on a Sorc.

If they cannot specialize, its player error.


So in any realistic scenario, the archmage certainly will perform better in the school of specialization (with significant feat/AP investment, of course), while the wizard and sorc will perform similarly when casting spells of any other school. Then the sorc gets a boost of ~1k sp.

As explained above, claiming that Wizards and Sorcs will perform similarly is only if a Wizard somehow loses their mind and doesn't specialize, then the onus is upon them.

And heck, while we're at it, lets talk about this "SP boost".

Wizard @ Level 20 Base = 1205
Sorc @ Level 20 Base = 1730

Archmage IV Grants 325 (totaling the IV tiers). Archmage V brings that total to 400. Also, considering that the pre-reqs include Energy of the Scholar IV, there's another 110 spell points.

That makes Wizard @ Level 20 Base = 1710

Then, Wizzies get an extra +2 Int for capstone. The difference is about 30 SP @ level 20 when bumping up another +2 to a casting stat.

So, the Wizard suddenly has 1740 Base, naked. The Sorc has 1730, and even if the Sorc decides to take ALL the SP line (poor choice), they're only at 1880.

A 140 SP difference, at maximum. Geared, the difference is larger, but my point remains that this extra ~1k SP or 50% more SP that you keep talking about is.. myth. Conjecture. And the bonus to DCs means SP conservation through efficient casting.

And to preempt what I'm sure will come next : Yes, I'm well aware that training an SLA means that the wizard loses SP from that total SP pool. However, if a wizard trains in such an SLA, it should be because they assume that its usage will benefit them so greatly that it will be a positive influence on their SP consumption, or it should not be trained at all. If an SLA is not a benefit, there is no necessity for it to be trained.



Not at all. I, and many others, judging from past forum posts, considered wizards to be distinctly weaker than sorcerers before the introduction of the various PrEs. The original introduction of Pale Master was generally unimpressive, so it did not change this status. With the modification of Pale Master and the introduction of Archmage, both wizard PrEs are now quite competitive with sorcerers, all with differing strengths and weaknesses.

I will agree with Pale Master's original implementation being unimpressive. The rest of this paragraph, however, is the point of argument here, so read... anything else I've written that states my opinion to be contrary.

As to your.. "Scenarios". You can call that a scenario if you wish, just as much as I could run a brush across a canvas a single time, and call it a portrait of the Golden Gate Bridge in the Realism style of art. They are at once broad, undefined, and not objective.


A snarky attitude brings nothing productive to a discussion.

Cheers!
Kernal

I'd rather come across snarky than haughty and out of touch. And since you seem to continue to be able to tell me *my* point in this discussion, what's yours? That the Devs should never ever ever give Sorcerers PrEs, change elemental enhancement lines, or fix the ToD elemental sets to be stacking with other Lore items?

TheDearLeader
11-16-2010, 12:14 PM
I'm not sure how much ungimping of sorcs for epics they can do...since alot of sorcs are already soloing many of the epics.

Exactly. I was shocked when I read the post title and thought "Surely someone isn't actually asking for the most ridiculously overpowered class in the game to be "ungimped."
And someone did. /boggle

Wizards are soloing Epics, as well. Clerics are soloing Epics, FvS are soloing Epics. Well built, survivable toons with good players sitting at their keyboard will continue to do this, regardless of class. While their efforts should be commended, this should not be a basis of saying "Oh this class is already "teh awesomenest!" because I say this guy I know do this thing and it was so cool! They need nerfed lol!".


Uhh, two Spellsong Vigors does not equal 1000 sp. I don't know what you're smoking... but I wish the devs were smoking it.

Couple your Spellsong Vigors with the 10% SP discount from Spellsong Trance, and your +1 DCs (at least) landing 5% more often than that of a Sorcerer. You'll start to see how this makes an extra 1000 SP in my blue bar upon login not so special.


Wizards sucked hard for a long time in this game and the developers finally gave the powergamers good reasons to play a wizard as opposed to a Sorc and I think that is a good thing. After the epic mob saving throw nerf wizards gained the upperhand because a high DC wiz can spam mass hold and symbol of persuasion throughout the epic quest while the melee chew the mobs to pieces or the mobs kill each other, but its not like a Sorceror with good gear and DCs cannot manage although they are less effective.

You manage to highlight part of the issue here, actually. The introduction of the PrEs, coupled with Epic "Minion" status, means that raw damage has become slow anf inefficient compared to DC-based spells. Not that Sorcs cannot complete or contribute to Epics, I've not nor will I say that, but it would be nice for inflexibility of feats, inflexibility of spell selection, and lowers DCs than a Wizard in every school, some more than others, to mean a little more again.


Do any of the people here who are saying that Sorcerers are gimped ever play Sorcerers?

Yes, hi. McPhail, how you doing? Its hard to keep him off of timers due to high demand. I still feel like rolling up an Archmage and doing all the same things I do every day on McPhail, only with higher DCs to back them up.

Creeper
11-16-2010, 12:39 PM
So, the Wizard suddenly has 1740 Base, naked. The Sorc has 1730, and even if the Sorc decides to take ALL the SP line (poor choice), they're only at 1880.

A 140 SP difference, at maximum. Geared, the different is larger

I want to point out to someone who might read TheDearLeader’s post and not know better that he is comparing the best case SP scenario for a Wizard with full ranks in a PRE, no SLAs, and no PRE spell mastery (-50 a pop) to the worst case SP scenario for a naked Sorcerer, who would benefit doubly from any spell point items.

I also want to point out that the build for the SP comparison is not the one used in the DC comparison. See here:



A Wizard can have every feat that my Sorcerer does, +SF and GSF for two Schools, and SF for a third School. Combine that with Archmage, and that's one school with +5 DC on a Sorc, one school with +3 DC on a Sorc, one school with +2 DC on a Sorc, and every other school with +1 DC on a Sorc.


He calculated the Dcs from Archmage spell mastery but not the spell point penalty for each.
It is a questionable comparison when you use this to prove one point and then ignore the negatives to prove another; both points taken being negotiated in favor of your argument.

If he took the 1740 vs. 1880 and added an additional +200 to the sorc from items as well as the spell point negative to reach the Dcs he outlined above for the AM, his comparison would be relevant and fair.

Creeper
11-16-2010, 12:44 PM
Couple your Spellsong Vigors with the 10% SP discount from Spellsong Trance, and your +1 DCs (at least) landing 5% more often than that of a Sorcerer. You'll start to see how this makes an extra 1000 SP in my blue bar upon login not so special.

Sorcerers also benefit from these things.

stoolcannon
11-16-2010, 12:46 PM
I want to point out to someone who might read TheDearLeader’s post and not know better that he is comparing the best case SP scenario for a Wizard with full ranks in a PRE, no SLAs, and no PRE spell mastery (-50 a pop) to the worst case SP scenario for a naked Sorcerer, who would benefit doubly from any spell point items.

I also want to point out that the build for the SP comparison is not the one used in the DC comparison. See here:



He calculated the Dcs from Archmage spell mastery but not the spell point penalty for each.
It is a questionable comparison when you use this to prove one point and then ignore the negatives to prove another; both points taken being negotiated in favor of your argument.

If he took the 1740 vs. 1880 and added an additional +200 to the sorc from items as well as the spell point negative to reach the Dcs he outlined above for the AM, his comparison would be relevant and fair.

Is there an SP cost to boosting the DC's? It can't be too much if it is. I agree with your post by the way, just looking for clarification.

I know on my level 20 drow (just have a +100 sp item and no shroud SP item) my SP went from around 1700 to 2100 when I took all 5 levels of archmage + Enchant II, + Necro 1 so there's definitely a significant increase in SP gain if you don't take the inherent ability spells.

Creeper
11-16-2010, 12:54 PM
Is there an SP cost to boosting the DC's? It can't be too much if it is. I agree with your post by the way, just looking for clarification.

I know on my level 20 drow (just have a +100 sp item and no shroud SP item) my SP went from around 1700 to 2100 when I took all 5 levels of archmage + Enchant II, + Necro 1 so there's definitely a significant increase in SP gain if you don't take the inherent ability spells.

It's -50 for one school for the 1st Tier and -75 for the 2nd.

TheDearLeader
11-16-2010, 01:08 PM
Sorcerers also benefit from these things.


The topic was Bard DCs and SP pools versus that of a Sorcerer. Bards can now self-buff with two different things Sorcerers cannot to increase both. Don't take what was said out of context.


I already covered this. And as I told them, don't take what was said out of context.


I want to point out to someone who might read TheDearLeader’s post and not know better that he is comparing the best case SP scenario for a Wizard with full ranks in a PRE, no SLAs, and no PRE spell mastery (-50 a pop) to the worst case SP scenario for a naked Sorcerer, who would benefit doubly from any spell point items.



A 140 SP difference, at maximum. Geared, the difference is larger, but my point remains that this extra ~1k SP or 50% more SP that you keep talking about is.. myth. Conjecture. And the bonus to DCs means SP conservation through efficient casting.

I covered item based differences. If you want solid numbers, a Sorc would have 350 more "bonus" spell points than a Wizard, assuming both wear an Archmagi Item and possess Concordant Opposition, or similar Elemental Spell Energy bonuses on an item.


He calculated the Dcs from Archmage spell mastery but not the spell point penalty for each.
It is a questionable comparison when you use this to prove one point and then ignore the negatives to prove another; both points taken being negotiated in favor of your argument.

Correct, My bad. -125 SP to the Wizard for the Spell Mastery tiers. I'll leave the previous post as it stands, but also point out that I missed that. So the Wiz is at 1615 Naked, Archmage V, Both Spell Mastery enhancements, naked. Its actually more than that because I only gave that build about 30 Bonus SP, but of course I didn't give the bonus SP to the Sorc either. Just saying that real-life SP will be much higher.


no SLAs

I guess preempting this wasn't good enough. I suppose it did, however, allow me to quote myself for future reference.



And to preempt what I'm sure will come next : Yes, I'm well aware that training an SLA means that the wizard loses SP from that total SP pool. However, if a wizard trains in such an SLA, it should be because they assume that its usage will benefit them so greatly that it will be a positive influence on their SP consumption, or it should not be trained at all. If an SLA is not a benefit, there is no necessity for it to be trained.

Either your SLAs are worth it to you, or you don't train them. The fact that its not required that you train even one to make it to Archmage V from what I've read means that you have that exact option.

Creeper
11-16-2010, 01:23 PM
I guess preempting this wasn't good enough. I suppose it did, however, allow me to quote myself for future reference.

The fact that I mentioned SLAs should not imply that I did not comprehend your post. I did not calculate SLA negatives because of my agreement with that portion of your argument. Just because you address something preemptively does not strike it from the conversation, it only lets others know your position; which was why the post from which you quoted was not directed toward you.

TheDearLeader
11-16-2010, 01:28 PM
The fact that I mentioned SLAs should not imply that I did not comprehend your post. I did not calculate SLA negatives because of my agreement with that portion of your argument. Just because you address something preemptively does not strike it from the conversation, it only lets others know your position; which was why the post from which you quoted was not directed toward you.

So... we're good on everything else?

Creeper
11-16-2010, 01:29 PM
So... we're good on everything else?

dandy ;)

Alavatar
11-16-2010, 01:54 PM
While I agree that, now, Sorcerers need some love I believe they are still competitive to a wizard. For the longest time Sorcerers were considered to be one of, if not the, most powerful class due to:


Faster casting (Quicken helps a wizard with this respect, but it costs more SP and is still not as fast as a Sorc. Besides, chances are a Sorc has Quicken as well)
Faster cooldown
More spell points
Synergy with UMD
Low quantity of useful spells (making spell swapping not much of a benefit)
Level 1 - 19, damage/insta-kill is king in most scenarios as things died too quickly to really CC

Sorcerers have often trailed behind wizards with regards to Spell Penetration due to being feat starved, but that was generally accepted since a Sorc could just cast the spell again pretty quickly due to the faster cooldowns and faster casting times.

Now, Wizards have received two decent PrE (well, one was reworked, but it is now fairly good). One of those PrE gives a significant boost to SP and Spell DCs for 1 - 2 schools of the casters choice, and the other increases the DCs for Necromancy (not very useful in Epic) with relatively free damage output options. Wizards already had better Spell Pen, now they have significantly better DCs (as noted, +3 for a primary school as compared to a Sorcerer of comparable build and gear, assuming a Sorcerer sacrifices to get SF and gSF) and the Past Life feats for the wizard increase both! And, several spells have been added over the past year and a half that makes a static spell list of a Sorcerer very difficult to compose as opposed to the ability of a Wizard to swap spells on the fly.

So, recently, as in the past 4 months, Wizards have pulled ahead of Sorcerers and are now considered to be "better" for the most part. Wizards got significant love first (and the love isn't done since Wild Mage isn't completed) because for the longest time they were considered a gimped class. Sorcerers will get their love, but it will probably be a while before we see it.

I also hold that Sorcerers are useful in Epic content as long as the player is good and the build is good. I have seen several awesome players with awesome Sorcerers able to handle Epic content much better than I could with my Wizard!

kernal42
11-16-2010, 02:19 PM
Excuse me? Wizards have five more feats that a sorcerer. A Wizard can have every feat that my Sorcerer does, +SF and GSF for two Schools, and SF for a third School. Combine that with Archmage, and that's one school with +5 DC on a Sorc, one school with +3 DC on a Sorc, one school with +2 DC on a Sorc, and every other school with +1 DC on a Sorc.

If they cannot specialize, its player error.

I don't think you understand how to build wizards.
Let's start basic: the Archmage PrE requires the Mental Toughness feat. The feat difference is reduced to four.
Even ignoring that, it is hard for me to imagine a wizard in his/her right mind taking five Spell Focus/GSF feats. Are you seriously suggesting this? Two are great - a third and possibly a fourth is not unreasonable to eek as much as possible out of Archmage. Of course, the second choice is typically necromancy, not evocation or transmutation. So for a reasonable enchantment-spec'd wizard, compared to an equally-geared sorc, you have:
+5 enchantment DC
+3 necromancy DC
+1 DC all other schools
Even if the second Spell Focus was evocation or transmutation, the sorc will still have significantly higher dps due to capstone and decreased spell cool-down time.
Furthermore, you completely neglect the serious AP cost involved in taking this much Archmage. Even without any SLAs, you're looking at spending 25 AP. This cost should not be ignored.
10 for Energy of the Scholar I-IV
4 for Improved Concentration I-IV
10 for Archmage I-IV
3 for Spell Focus Masteries.



And heck, while we're at it, lets talk about this "SP boost".

Wizard @ Level 20 Base = 1205
Sorc @ Level 20 Base = 1730

Archmage IV Grants 325 (totaling the IV tiers). Archmage V brings that total to 400. Also, considering that the pre-reqs include Energy of the Scholar IV, there's another 110 spell points.

That makes Wizard @ Level 20 Base = 1710

Then, Wizzies get an extra +2 Int for capstone. The difference is about 30 SP @ level 20 when bumping up another +2 to a casting stat.

So, the Wizard suddenly has 1740 Base, naked. The Sorc has 1730, and even if the Sorc decides to take ALL the SP line (poor choice), they're only at 1880.

A 140 SP difference, at maximum. Geared, the difference is larger, but my point remains that this extra ~1k SP or 50% more SP that you keep talking about is.. myth. Conjecture. And the bonus to DCs means SP conservation through efficient casting.

Including Mental Toughness and the costs of a minimal AM dc boost, you're looking at base/geared (without int/cha):
Wiz: 1660 / 2010
Sorc: 1880 / 2580
You're right that my 1k sp statement is outdated (roughly correct for pre-AM days), but 500 sp is still undeniably valuable.



As to your.. "Scenarios". You can call that a scenario if you wish, just as much as I could run a brush across a canvas a single time, and call it a portrait of the Golden Gate Bridge in the Realism style of art. They are at once broad, undefined, and not objective.

Good job dismissing an argument without actually addressing it.



And since you seem to continue to be able to tell me *my* point in this discussion, what's yours? That the Devs should never ever ever give Sorcerers PrEs, change elemental enhancement lines, or fix the ToD elemental sets to be stacking with other Lore items?

Not at all - I very much look forward to sorc PrEs and hope spell crits (continue to) get overhauled. I am a little wary of sorc PrEs just because it would be easy to break what tenuous balance exists now.
My point is that, as of now, the two classes are reasonably well balanced. Not perfectly balanced, but much better than they were. I'm roughly arguing against the OP whose side you appear to be arguing for, although the topic has wavered somewhat in the past few pages.

Cheers,
Kernal

TheDearLeader
11-16-2010, 02:45 PM
I don't think you understand how to build wizards.
Let's start basic: the Archmage PrE requires the Mental Toughness feat. The feat difference is reduced to four.
Granted. Lets go with four feats, then, although technically mental toughness being 1/13 feats a (Human) Wizard gets at level 20 doesn't seem all too big a deal.


Even ignoring that, it is hard for me to imagine a wizard in his/her right mind taking five Spell Focus/GSF feats. Are you seriously suggesting this?
What are you suggesting instead, Augment Summoning?


Two are great - a third and possibly a fourth is not unreasonable to eek as much as possible out of Archmage. Of course, the second choice is typically necromancy, not evocation or transmutation. So for a reasonable enchantment-spec'd wizard, compared to an equally-geared sorc, you have:
+5 enchantment DC
+3 necromancy DC
+1 DC all other schools

I'll admit, I don't understand this in the least. Mainly, the second school being Necromancy. As a Sorc with lower DCs, there are few mobs in the game [below epic] that I can't hit with a Finger of Death/Wail of the Banshee. I'm not sure why Wizards need to further specialize in it, when their DC will be innately higher than mine. Were I to roll a Wizzie today, I'd be planning for Enchantment, and the second school to be something *other* than Necromancy.

The only place I can readily think of where these spells become an issue would be Amrath, and half those mobs are innately warded against said spells, anyway. I'd much rather Trap the Soul, Heighten a Web, anything else because I know it affects 100% of mobs out there.

So... why Necro DC 2nd? This actually seems like one DC that's too high.



Even if the second Spell Focus was evocation or transmutation, the sorc will still have significantly higher dps due to capstone and decreased spell cool-down time.

... Unless a Mob saves. Then its either no damage, or significantly less damage. Also, damage-causing spells become lackluster in epics, anyway, due to their higher spell point costs (I've never had to Empower and Maximize a Mass Hold Monster, now have I?), and the fact that Hit Points are inflated to the point that a "cast once and done" DC-based spell that incapacitates a mob in some fashion is more efficient than multiple Empowered, Maxmized, Extended damage over time spells that leave the mobs free to roam and cause damage to the caster and other party members. But.. I've said this, in multiple posts. I'm not rehashing it any further.



Furthermore, you completely neglect the serious AP cost involved in taking this much Archmage. Even without any SLAs, you're looking at spending 25 AP. This cost should not be ignored.
10 for Energy of the Scholar I-IV
4 for Improved Concentration I-IV
10 for Archmage I-IV
3 for Spell Focus Masteries.

Doing anything useful in game will come with some sort of AP cost. Doing a cursory glance of my Paladin, Knight of the Chalice III costs him 24 AP. Getting Exalted Smite IV, which ties hand-in-hand with being a DPS-based Paladin as most KotC are, is an additional 16 AP I think? Half my AP, gone for the PrE and a closely-tied ability.

PrEs are costly because they are good. Otherwise, they are not taken. I didn't "neglect" the AP cost - just like taking the SLAs related to this PrE, either its useful enough to be taken (and obviously it is, considering how many are making the switch), or its not, and people will leave their enhancements as they are.


Including Mental Toughness and the costs of a minimal AM dc boost, you're looking at base/geared (without int/cha):
Wiz: 1660 / 2010
Sorc: 1880 / 2580
You're right that my 1k sp statement is outdated (roughly correct for pre-AM days), but 500 sp is still undeniably valuable.

Is it so valuable? The spells a Sorc are expected to cast (the DPS spells) are more expensive than the DC-based spells a Wizard would cast in a similar situation - if both net an end result of all mobs being dead, and the party progressing forward, I'd rather cast the DC-based spell. Especially since, as repeatedly repeatedly hit upon, incapacitated mobs aren't dealing anyone in the party damage.


Not at all - I very much look forward to sorc PrEs and hope spell crits (continue to) get overhauled. I am a little wary of sorc PrEs just because it would be easy to break what tenuous balance exists now.
My point is that, as of now, the two classes are reasonably well balanced. Not perfectly balanced, but much better than they were. I'm roughly arguing against the OP whose side you appear to be arguing for, although the topic has wavered somewhat in the past few pages.

Cheers,
Kernal

The OP was a bit hasty in his choice of a title, and perhaps of the body of his message. I was more responding to people responding to him, and this persistent attitude of "Oh Sorcs are fine the way they are".

maddmatt70
11-16-2010, 03:34 PM
An ex-guildy of mine had a wizard as his main for the first 4+ years of this game. In the course of TRing his wizard a few times he tried out the sorceror. He found the casting speed just incredibly powerful for a sorceror you can cast that spell faster and therefore land it quicker if some of the mobs should save you can just cast the spell again in nearly the same time it takes a wizard to cast it once. Really playing a caster in open play is about reacting to a situation and taking steps to remedy it. If a party member dies they should get rebuffed, if an arcane skeleton needs to be halted they should be the faster the better so the arcane skeleton does not do damage to the party, etc. I get the feeling that some of the posters in this thread are slow regardless of the arcane they play and do not really understand what I mean. Playing a caster is about reacting to a situation and if you are slower because you are playing a wizard well then you might not do your job.

I think there are more then adequate spells for sorcerors to do fine in epic content despite their limited number of spells. By the way I hate disco ball it lags melee out in chronoscope all the time and I also hate summon monster spells they just introduce lag.

Tirisha
11-16-2010, 07:16 PM
I did not expect this much response. Pardon if I just browsed through a bit I tried to read everybodies post with 50+ concentration, for the most part I believe I understand what people are trying to say, if I get you wrong I apologize in advance.

Basically peeps believe:

Sorcs are DPS:

When did this start? when they added the end cap? I'll remind you that this game has multi-class option in the event that you go say 19 sorc and 1 bard, what is a sorc considered then? A watered down wizard With the same DPS as and the lack of feats/spell availability?

I would like you to answer a question when you consider Sorcs a DPS class; how many of you Put up an LFM for Raids, Amarath, or Epic quests asking for DPS only and have Sorc or Wizard included in the classes wanted? Those of you that answer yes (even though its laughable to a vet player) do you have the LFM available to just Sorc?

That being said I believe that anybody who does Raids, Amarath, and Epics consider Casters period Sorcs included to be a SUPPORT class not DPS.

*The reason behind this is that you cannot consider a class with a limited resources (such as SP) that is required for them to even attack, to be a DPS class especially when even Kobolds in epics have HP in the Tens of thousands*


The Sorc is Balanced compared too a wizard.

There is two ways to do Epics that are most commonly used:

CC by Enchantment

CC by perching

one of these ways is used more frequently=CC by enchantment

The wizard is drastically better at CC by enchantment due too feats available and enhancements available (gear and TRs aside)

The sorc is unnoticeably better (if pure sorc) than a wizard at CC by Perching.

Balanced?

Another belief stated is that Sorcs are generalized that is why they aren't as good a wizards at W/E the wizard decides to specialize in (DPS or CC).

Well it stands too reason that Wizards have the ability to generalize and Specialize due too 5 more available metamagic feats.

Some people believe that I want sorcs to do everything better than a Wizard:

The truth I don't want Sorcs to be considered DPS in some weird fluff only kinda way because no sane person would consider them mechanically at end game. And for the Sorc to have the option of not being Gimp ("DPS") and be able to Specialize in CC to a reasonable extent when compared to the Wizard. That's why I recommended an additional end cap, one that gives sorcs a better DC.

My sorc has a 34 DC which gets her by in easy epics, in difficult ones like DA I fear she would only be a burden to the group. Her DC will increase but it is unreasonable to say that it will ever get within 4 of what it can be, or her spell pen be as high as it would be if I had rolled her as a Wizard.

*I would recommend making a PRE not for the purpose of DPS casting (which is silly imo) but one that raises DCs by increasing the Sorcs CHA (Dragon blood Pre or something) It really urks me that a Drow Sorc doesn't have the highest CHA in the game, and is not even tied for it O.o

kernal42
11-16-2010, 07:22 PM
What are you suggesting instead, Augment Summoning?
Comparing sorcs to wiz for feats isn't exactly comparable; because of the increased feat value for sorcs the bonus feat from humans is quite nice; it's distinctly less nice for wizards. I'd roll a human sorc, but I wouldn't roll a human wiz. In any case, I'm assuming 7 total feats available (so WF or Drow).
Sorc: Toughness, Maximize, Empower, Heighten, Extend, Spell Pen, Force of Personality [placed for symmetry]
Wiz: Toughness, Max, Emp, Heighten, Extend, Spell Pen, Insightful Reflexes, Spell Focus, Greater Spell Focus, Mental Toughness, Greater Spell Pen, Spell Focus or Quicken

This is reasonably realistic; obviously people's builds will be tailored for what they are looking for. In any case, for most builds (especially enchanters) the increased spell penetration would be more useful than a third-school Spell Focus.



I'll admit, I don't understand this in the least. Mainly, the second school being Necromancy. As a Sorc with lower DCs, there are few mobs in the game [below epic] that I can't hit with a Finger of Death/Wail of the Banshee. I'm not sure why Wizards need to further specialize in it, when their DC will be innately higher than mine. Were I to roll a Wizzie today, I'd be planning for Enchantment, and the second school to be something *other* than Necromancy.

The only place I can readily think of where these spells become an issue would be Amrath, and half those mobs are innately warded against said spells, anyway. I'd much rather Trap the Soul, Heighten a Web, anything else because I know it affects 100% of mobs out there.

So... why Necro DC 2nd? This actually seems like one DC that's too high.

I generally agree, although I think only Bastion of Power and ToD give mobs blanket immunities to instakills. In IQ/DD on hard/elite, having a good necro DC is also convenient. Transmutation focus would be less powerful but useful more often. Evocation focus would be nice for levelling, but the SLAs are pretty useless at end-game. In any case, I probably wouldn't take a second spell focus on a wizard.



... Unless a Mob saves. Then its either no damage, or significantly less damage. Also, damage-causing spells become lackluster in epics, anyway, due to their higher spell point costs (I've never had to Empower and Maximize a Mass Hold Monster, now have I?), and the fact that Hit Points are inflated to the point that a "cast once and done" DC-based spell that incapacitates a mob in some fashion is more efficient than multiple Empowered, Maxmized, Extended damage over time spells that leave the mobs free to roam and cause damage to the caster and other party members. But.. I've said this, in multiple posts. I'm not rehashing it any further.

Despite the higher chance to save, sorcs will have better dps even against evasion mobs (unless the DCs are woefully low). Of course, they will have lower damage/sp due to lower DCs.
Damage spells in epics certainly are lackluster, with two exceptions:
1) Firewall. This point is pretty moot because the +20% boost from sorc capstone is relatively minor, and the faster cooldown is irrelevant. The increased sp pool is nice if you plan to solo, however.
2) Bosses.



Doing anything useful in game will come with some sort of AP cost. Doing a cursory glance of my Paladin, Knight of the Chalice III costs him 24 AP. Getting Exalted Smite IV, which ties hand-in-hand with being a DPS-based Paladin as most KotC are, is an additional 16 AP I think? Half my AP, gone for the PrE and a closely-tied ability.

PrEs are costly because they are good. Otherwise, they are not taken. I didn't "neglect" the AP cost - just like taking the SLAs related to this PrE, either its useful enough to be taken (and obviously it is, considering how many are making the switch), or its not, and people will leave their enhancements as they are.


Every benefit comes with a cost. Ignoring the cost artificially makes the benefit appear greater than it is. Archmage is absolutely worth the cost, yes, but 25 AP is still a significant sacrifice. A sorc, not needing to spend these AP, effectively gets 25 more AP to play around with, which can be very valuable.



The OP was a bit hasty in his choice of a title, and perhaps of the body of his message. I was more responding to people responding to him, and this persistent attitude of "Oh Sorcs are fine the way they are".

I wouldn't say that sorcs "need" a new PrE, but it would be awesome if they got one.

Cheers,
Kernal

~Tago_Bane
11-16-2010, 11:09 PM
Let me ask you do you guys if you had to spend 5 feats to get the Sorcs casting speed and cooldown would ya do it? Because their quick casting is the only thing you guys really have positive to say about A sorc, except a false belief that Sorcs actually have a meaningful SP advantage ( their at a SP disadvantage When a secondary speced conj Wiz can drop a heightened web for 3SP)

You all seem to thinkk the Sorc is "good enough" but can't seem to admit that they are gimp. Anybody who runs epics knows that DCs are king and "Good Enough" DCs are not good enough for me. The sorc needs love, they need a pre or an end cap that makes their DCs worth some salt.

elricken
11-17-2010, 11:23 AM
Let me ask you do you guys if you had to spend 5 feats to get the Sorcs casting speed and cooldown would ya do it? Because their quick casting is the only thing you guys really have positive to say about A sorc, except a false belief that Sorcs actually have a meaningful SP advantage ( their at a SP disadvantage When a secondary speced conj Wiz can drop a heightened web for 3SP)

You all seem to thinkk the Sorc is "good enough" but can't seem to admit that they are gimp. Anybody who runs epics knows that DCs are king and "Good Enough" DCs are not good enough for me. The sorc needs love, they need a pre or an end cap that makes their DCs worth some salt.

So even tho sorcs can hit dcs in the 40s on their CC and have more sp in addition to increased casting cooldown and powerful CHA based skill usage they are gimp?

WIz and Sorc are pretty balanced right now IMO, it just takes more gear atm to make a sorc work in epic.

Wizard AM is the easy button, no required gear for a high CC DC.

~Tago_Bane
11-17-2010, 11:59 AM
So even tho sorcs can hit dcs in the 40s on their CC and have more sp in addition to increased casting cooldown and powerful CHA based skill usage they are gimp?

WIz and Sorc are pretty balanced right now IMO, it just takes more gear atm to make a sorc work in epic.

Wizard AM is the easy button, no required gear for a high CC DC.

You can't hit 40 DC without TRing and having max gear +4 Tomes included besides how much higher DC would you have if you were a Wiz on that toon? and how many feats would have to have sacrifice to get max DC? Sry but good enough just isn't good enough for me.

like I said before, the SP difference is margianal and more than adaquetely balance by the spell selection alone.

elricken
11-17-2010, 12:04 PM
You can't hit 40 DC without TRing and having max gear Tomes included besides how much higher DC would you have if you were a Wiz on that toon? and how many feats would have to have sacrifice to get max DC?

like I said before, the SP difference is margian and more than adaquetely balance by the spell selection alone.

so?

...


I said the AM was better for poorly geared / newer casters, the fact is tho that a well geared sorc is along ways from gimp.

Wizards got a well deserved boost, that however does not mean that sorcs are now gimp.

~Tago_Bane
11-17-2010, 12:12 PM
so?

...


I said the AM was better for poorly geared / newer casters, the fact is tho that a well geared sorc is along ways from gimp.

Wizards got a well deserved boost, that however does not mean that sorcs are now gimp.

yes well gimp is a subjective term I admit but the point is Gear or no they aren't as good as Wiz not even close. A Geared toon isn't starved for SP so why Sorc?

elricken
11-17-2010, 12:15 PM
yes well gimp is a subjective term I admit but the point is Gear or no they aren't as good as Wiz not even close. A Geared toon isn't starved for SP so why Sorc?

CHA BASED SKILLS AND CASTING TIME

More big letters for comprehension.

How many times has that been gone over?

And even with top notch gear the extra sp is still nice, its the difference between drinking a pot or not alot of times.

Look the simple fact is the both classes are extremely viable in epics atm. And that is all there is to it. Wizards may be slightly better atm (I don't think they are but whatev, if that is what the majority believes...) , but to say that sorcs are de facto poor because wizards got what was coming to them is down right silly.

Let the wizards have some time in the sun.... sorcs will get a decent PRE eventually. Hopefully one that isnt too OP or too "Flavorful".

~Tago_Bane
11-17-2010, 02:34 PM
CHA BASED SKILLS AND CASTING TIME

More big letters for comprehension.

How many times has that been gone over?

And even with top notch gear the extra sp is still nice, its the difference between drinking a pot or not alot of times.

Look the simple fact is the both classes are extremely viable in epics atm. And that is all there is to it. Wizards may be slightly better atm (I don't think they are but whatev, if that is what the majority believes...) , but to say that sorcs are de facto poor because wizards got what was coming to them is down right silly.

Let the wizards have some time in the sun.... sorcs will get a decent PRE eventually. Hopefully one that isnt too OP or too "Flavorful".

Pre's aside would you really spend 5 Feats on a faster casting time? The SP is balanced by spell selection alone.

kernal42
11-17-2010, 02:48 PM
Pre's aside would you really spend 5 Feats on a faster casting time? The SP is balanced by spell selection alone.

You keep discussing this in terms of absolutes. Unfortunately, absolutes do not exist, so your question has no answer. But I'll try to answer it anyway:

If I could not benefit more by taking other feats, then yes. I would.

There are situations where this would occur: For example, I already have the metamagic feats I want and enough gear to push my DCs to 40. Mental toughness would be a waste, and I don't need the spell focus. So yes, I would trade the bonus feats for the benefits that sorc provides.

I can make a little chart for you, if this isn't clear yet. Left column is resources available, right column is the better class (in my opinion - really this just means the class I would build from):
First life, no gear - Wizard
Past lives & end-game gear - Sorcerer.

Supposing Sorcs got a boost so that ungeared sorcs were competitive with ungeared wizard. Now our chart looks like:
First life, no gear - Either
Past lives & end-game gear - Sorcerer

This looks unbalanced; In each case, sorc is either as good or better than wizard. In the present case, sometimes wiz is better while sometimes sorc is better*. This is good.

Cheers,
Kernal

*Caveat - saying one is "better" than the other is never, ever quite reasonable. Everybody has different preferences; for example, I'm a sucker for feats so I like wizards more with no consideration of relative power and ability. Other players may focus on their ability to do dps to bosses, while others may put more weight on achieving super-high DCs. Unless very poor design decisions are made, one will never be absolutely and objectively better than another. Of course, a general idea can be gleaned by examining the opinions of many players; if most players favor one class over another, that suggests that there is a subjective imbalance.

Jaid314
11-17-2010, 04:34 PM
Pre's aside would you really spend 5 Feats on a faster casting time? The SP is balanced by spell selection alone.

Note: "TheDearLeader", I have even taken the time to use proper capitalisation just for you, so you have absolutely no excuse to just ignore reading it this time. However, it should also be noted that this isn't really a direct response to you, specifically.

For the most part, spell selection is still utterly worthless. There are maybe 1-2 spells that I really wish I could fit in, but can't (and even those aren't a huge deal). And there are I suppose a handful of spells that I might consider using once in a blue moon. that doesn't make up for more spell points which are useful all the time.

Seriously, there are spell levels where I have spent 10 minutes or more trying to figure out which spell is the least useless so I can choose one. In very few spell levels are there ever times when I care if I could have another spell slot. As a sorcerer, I already have room in my spell list for spells that I will only ever cast on special occasions... being able to exchange spells is useless, until they add more spells that are even worth knowing in the first place.

I have a wizard... he knows every spell he is able to. The spells he prepares are the same as my sorcerer's spell list, apart from the fact that he has an extra couple of hotbars where he stores spells that he never uses anyways. If I could trade in my wizard's spell selection abilities for more SP, i would do it in a second. It wouldn't even have to be as much as a sorcerer. I'd trade it in for a mental toughness equivalent at this point in the game, because it's so worthless I may as well not even have it.

Once you know what spells are useful, you can safely ignore the rest. As a sorcerer, I can't recall a single time where I felt I was lacking in a spell that was needed for a quest, except for times when I was experimenting with a different spell that could have been swapped for it (which turned out to be not worth the spell slot anyways... the slots in question were level 3, where i had chain missiles and halt undead would have been needed for epic wiz king, and level 9 where i had meteor swarm instead of mass hold monster at the time.)

If you're playing a wizard so that you can swap spells, then you are wasting your time. Wizard is worth considering for the prestige enhancements, and for the feats, and without them it wouldn't even be worth looking at. Sorcerer is already a powerful class on its own -- I do look forward to seeing prestige enhancements, but I'm not even the tiniest bit convinced that my sorcerer has any insurmountable problems that make it so much weaker than a wizard as to be considered unbalanced (though I do wish I had played a wizard before TRing, that's only because I consider the sorcerer TR active and passive feats to be altogether unimpressive compared to the wizard ones... so there you go, play a wizard if your plan is to TR into something else afterwards, and it will be worthwhile).

~Tago_Bane
11-17-2010, 04:57 PM
Note: "TheDearLeader", I have even taken the time to use proper capitalisation just for you, so you have absolutely no excuse to just ignore reading it this time. However, it should also be noted that this isn't really a direct response to you, specifically.

For the most part, spell selection is still utterly worthless. There are maybe 1-2 spells that I really wish I could fit in, but can't (and even those aren't a huge deal). And there are I suppose a handful of spells that I might consider using once in a blue moon. that doesn't make up for more spell points which are useful all the time.

Seriously, there are spell levels where I have spent 10 minutes or more trying to figure out which spell is the least useless so I can choose one. In very few spell levels are there ever times when I care if I could have another spell slot. As a sorcerer, I already have room in my spell list for spells that I will only ever cast on special occasions... being able to exchange spells is useless, until they add more spells that are even worth knowing in the first place.

I have a wizard... he knows every spell he is able to. The spells he prepares are the same as my sorcerer's spell list, apart from the fact that he has an extra couple of hotbars where he stores spells that he never uses anyways. If I could trade in my wizard's spell selection abilities for more SP, i would do it in a second. It wouldn't even have to be as much as a sorcerer. I'd trade it in for a mental toughness equivalent at this point in the game, because it's so worthless I may as well not even have it.

Once you know what spells are useful, you can safely ignore the rest. As a sorcerer, I can't recall a single time where I felt I was lacking in a spell that was needed for a quest, except for times when I was experimenting with a different spell that could have been swapped for it (which turned out to be not worth the spell slot anyways... the slots in question were level 3, where i had chain missiles and halt undead would have been needed for epic wiz king, and level 9 where i had meteor swarm instead of mass hold monster at the time.)

If you're playing a wizard so that you can swap spells, then you are wasting your time. Wizard is worth considering for the prestige enhancements, and for the feats, and without them it wouldn't even be worth looking at. Sorcerer is already a powerful class on its own -- I do look forward to seeing prestige enhancements, but I'm not even the tiniest bit convinced that my sorcerer has any insurmountable problems that make it so much weaker than a wizard as to be considered unbalanced (though I do wish I had played a wizard before TRing, that's only because I consider the sorcerer TR active and passive feats to be altogether unimpressive compared to the wizard ones... so there you go, play a wizard if your plan is to TR into something else afterwards, and it will be worthwhile).

Funny on my Sorc there are spells I wish she had

TigrisMorte
11-17-2010, 05:20 PM
... for the most part I believe I understand what people are trying to say, if I get you wrong I apologize in advance
Nice cover for your...
...Basically peeps believe: Sorcs are DPS:...when you consider Sorcs a DPS class;...(even though its laughable to a vet player)
backhanded insult should any fail to agree with you.

...That being said I believe that anybody who does Raids, Amarath, and Epics consider Casters period Sorcs included to be a SUPPORT class not DPS...
now to justify the insult and moving to insert secondary station (buffbot/healbot or gimp) on all non-melee... nice.

*The reason behind this is that you cannot consider a class with a limited resources (such as SP) that is required for them to even attack, to be a DPS class especially when even Kobolds in epics have HP in the Tens of thousands*...
I do appreciate your offering the evidentuary support theorem. In reality, there are many ways to recover mana. So, no I do not accept that casters can not be DPS. They may be burst and then conc. op. junkies or they may blast and suckle TP teet but it is possible, or have a nice radiant servant friend and plenty of time, or have a team of half sorc. half rad.s to keep the home fires burning, or some other method.

I accept, and play my sorc. as such, that the most obvious path is support with nuke capability. But this is not the "only" path.
Should you wish to limit your runs, that is your option. However don't assume your limitations onto others, nor pass as a proof, that the only way is the way you know/do it.

Tirisha
11-17-2010, 06:16 PM
I do appreciate your offering the evidentuary support theorem. In reality, there are many ways to recover mana. So, no I do not accept that casters can not be DPS. They may be burst and then conc. op. junkies or they may blast and suckle TP teet but it is possible, or have a nice radiant servant friend and plenty of time, or have a team of half sorc. half rad.s to keep the home fires burning, or some other method.

I accept, and play my sorc. as such, that the most obvious path is support with nuke capability. But this is not the "only" path.
Should you wish to limit your runs, that is your option. However don't assume your limitations onto others, nor pass as a proof, that the only way is the way you know/do it.



I don't think it really helps going CNN on me, sniping words I say away from the context.

I did not say that casters can't kill things it just takes a really long time too which I believe you agree considering your points about using Torc and con opp to replenish your SP. I do Damage on my Sorc but over the coarse of a quest the amount of damage I do couldn't be even marginally compared to a respectably built DPS class(and the only thing I'm missing for DPS gear is Eardweller but that is a short buff anyway).

I've already asked you this question but still you resign Sorcs as DPS, though I don't believe you've answered it for me:

Do you fill DPS slots in Amarath, raids or epics with Casters? if you do, then do you exclude Wizards from that slot?

TigrisMorte
11-18-2010, 12:46 AM
sniping words I say away from the context...
I did not say that casters can't kill things ...
never said you did.
it just takes a really long
time to complete is not a DPS issue. Time between fights is not involved in calculating DPS.
... a respectably built DPS class... so you think that you can out DPS a Sorc. with you swinging and they casting? Sorry, your dreaming. You only out DPS by refusing to wait for them to restore mana. This is not a comparison of effect but of play style. You are welcome, to say it takes longer if they must replenish SP, unless they choose to spend TP on potions in which case you are simply out of your mind if you think you can match the DPS.

I don't believe you've answered it for me: Do you fill DPS slots ...
I'll fill any slot with any who walk up and I'll complete. But that is me. You do what you want. Just be clear in your LFM and don't presume that because others don't play like you it can't be done.
And for the swine that drive by negged me because I don't accept the "your class only fills this role" BS, "Go float, ya spew!" Hope you have fun any way. even if your so limited in scope you can't accept what is possible.:p

Tirisha
11-18-2010, 01:54 AM
And for the swine that drive by negged me because I don't accept the "your class only fills this role" BS, "Go float, ya spew!" Hope you have fun any way. even if your so limited in scope you can't accept what is possible.:p

Sry if ya miss understand me but I am not one of those people that only takes 1 caster into a Shroud. I totally agree with ya about taking whoever I want into my groups and rolling anyways. That's not the point I'm trying to make, the point is I would take the caster but I wouldn't consider the caster to fill a DPS role and I'd think you would be hard pressed to find somebody who would.

In regards to you're comments about a Sorc out DPSing a melee. Sure you could keep up with a melees DPS or even out dps them with the right crits, but how long could you sustain that? Sorcs can cast really fast, you could dump 2.5K sp in 2 minutes easy, assuming you have 5k SP what would happen if the fight took longer than 4 minutes?

If you are willing to drink pots like blue cool aid sure a Sorc could be considered DPS in raids, amrath or epic, but I don't have those kinds of resources and most players do not.

Since I've been playing this game I have not seen one high lv LFM looking for DPS that has Sorc as an intended class. That is a whole lot of different people with different play styles that understand my point. Limited resources limits DPS. Over the coarse of a quest in a normal pug you will not come close to the percentage of damage a DPS toon acquires unless they allow mobs too cook in your FWs (which is done normally in only a select few end game quests.)

elricken
11-18-2010, 02:36 PM
Pre's aside would you really spend 5 Feats on a faster casting time? The SP is balanced by spell selection alone.

Yes I would.. easily. I have played both wizard and sorcerer to cap and at end game, and no the sp is not balanced by the spell selection.

Consider how many spells are required or even desired to be effective end game.

The only place I wish I had an extra slot is six level spells, would be nice to throw symbol of persuasion on there. (Which I will be able to to in Update 8, come ice storm as an aoe dot).

TigrisMorte
11-18-2010, 06:50 PM
...the caster to fill a DPS role and I'd think you would be hard pressed to find somebody who would...
...how long could you sustain that...
...drink pots like blue cool aid sure a Sorc could be considered DPS... I don't have those kinds of resources and most players do not... I have not seen one high lv LFM looking for DPS that has Sorc as an intended class...Limited resources limits DPS. Over the coarse of a quest in a normal pug you will not come close to the percentage of damage a DPS toon acquires unless they allow mobs too cook in your FWs (which is done normally in only a select few end game quests.)
All of that is irrelevant. Has nothing to do with is it possible. I gave several methods that it was possible.
"...for the Sorc to have the option of not being Gimp ("DPS") and be able to Specialize in CC..."
Nothing in this game is written in stone less than the roles some people wish to push certain classes into. Believe what you wish, I refuse to accept your position of limited support roll is all casters can perform. An all caster is just as viable as an all melee. Any role can be performed by any class with the proper build, gear, and care. The fact that it is uncommon or expensive or whatever does not mean it can not be done. There is no need for a caster to be a buffbot nor a healbot unless that is what the player desires.

again, don't presume it can't be done.

~Tago_Bane
11-18-2010, 09:32 PM
and no the sp is not balanced by the spell selection.

Consider how many spells are required or even desired to be effective end game.



I ran Epic Chains of Flame with my guild, we 5 manned it and we are all noobs to the quest on epic. None of us even really know it that well on normal but enough to complete. My Guildy was on his Wizard, we were taking it real slow he was casting heightened webs (think DC37) for 3 SP even though conjuration is his secondary specialization. He would drop them at doors and we would drag mobs through, we took it really slow cause we had no clue what would be on the other side. My guildies Wizard basically ran the Quest with Webs, a few Ottos and a few Disco balls for the mephits though he is not very well geared for SP (no torc con opp bauble even) he made it through a quest that took 156 minutes with SP to spare not drinking a single pot. If I had ran that same quest with my Sorc (similarly geared) she would be peeing blue for the next week for how many pots she would have had to drink, and unlike some people I wish I had more spells in several slots (2, 6, 7, 8, 9) spells that I had too sacrifice for a supposed SP advantage.

~Tago_Bane
11-18-2010, 09:43 PM
All of that is irrelevant. Has nothing to do with is it possible. I gave several methods that it was possible.
"...for the Sorc to have the option of not being Gimp ("DPS") and be able to Specialize in CC..."
Nothing in this game is written in stone less than the roles some people wish to push certain classes into. Believe what you wish, I refuse to accept your position of limited support roll is all casters can perform. An all caster is just as viable as an all melee. Any role can be performed by any class with the proper build, gear, and care. The fact that it is uncommon or expensive or whatever does not mean it can not be done. There is no need for a caster to be a buffbot nor a healbot unless that is what the player desires.

again, don't presume it can't be done.

I think what Tirisha is trying to say is not that a Sorc couldn't be DPS but it is very costly to do so in many end game instances which I believe you agree (correct me if I'm wrong). And that the Average Sorc with Average resources simply can't sustain damage long enough to have a high (Damage per second) DPS rate when compared to a non-SP reliant class. Hell you could even make a melee Sorc and do that well but in general most people don't Burn bosses too death or epic mobs too death with SP (unless soloing) and that it would be unfair to restrict a class to a role that it doesn't even fill for your average joe.

Basically Tirisha should not say that Sorcs aren't DPS but they aren't in most cases Sustainable DPS.