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View Full Version : Create Undead: Make it like other summons



Zachski
11-07-2010, 02:54 PM
Yeah, this bothers me a bit.

The chance that all other summons would turn against the caster have been removed. Except these. These still turn against the caster.

It just seems to me, if you're gonna alter that aspect of gameplay (having it so that summons don't turn against the caster), do it for all summons.

Besides, why can enemy necromancers keep control over "their" undead, yet the "heroic" casters can't?

EDIT: Also, changing it to this would make it so that Created Undead can benefit from Augment Summoning without risk, and at the same time, it would prevent a pretty glaringly obvious method of griefing.

Trillea
11-07-2010, 03:00 PM
Yeah, this bothers me a bit.

The chance that all other summons would turn against the caster have been removed. Except these. These still turn against the caster.

It just seems to me, if you're gonna alter that aspect of gameplay (having it so that summons don't turn against the caster), do it for all summons.

Besides, why can enemy necromancers keep control over "their" undead, yet the "heroic" casters can't?

EDIT: Also, changing it to this would make it so that Created Undead can benefit from Augment Summoning without risk, and at the same time, it would prevent a pretty glaringly obvious method of griefing.

Sounds to me like someone got the mummy treatment for being AFK too long..

Angelus_dead
11-07-2010, 03:02 PM
Yes, it would be nice if Create Undead got buffed to be useful. I'd actually do it in a whole different way: A new option to create a powerful undead that acts exactly like a Hireling, with the control bar and everything.


The chance that all other summons would turn against the caster have been removed. Except these.
A summoned Black Pudding can also turn against you. That's a bug; but it's currently a useful bug because it can be used as a workaround for a different bug, which is that Black Puddings follow you around (like Dominate) instead of lingering in one place (like Suggestion).


It just seems to me, if you're gonna alter that aspect of gameplay (having it so that summons don't turn against the caster), do it for all summons.
In certain places it can be helpful to be able to obtain an enemy to fight when the quest doesn't provide you with one; but that's probably not a use the designers should encourage.



why can enemy necromancers keep control over "their" undead, yet the "heroic" casters can't?
Because undead are evil, so they're more agreeable to cooperate with evil goals.


changing it to this would make it so that Created Undead can benefit from Augment Summoning without risk
They could also avoid that problem with a special-case code that Augment Summoning gives undead a -X penalty to break out of Create Undead Control.


it would prevent a pretty glaringly obvious method of griefing.
Griefing is much less important when its so obvious.

Zachski
11-07-2010, 03:03 PM
Sounds to me like someone got the mummy treatment for being AFK too long..

Nope. I haven't gotten a character to a level high enough yet to be mummied. :P

But either way, it's still griefing, and it saddens me that players think it is an acceptable behavior.

Zachski
11-07-2010, 03:09 PM
Yes, it would be nice if Create Undead got buffed to be useful. I'd actually do it in a whole different way: A new option to create a powerful undead that acts exactly like a Hireling, with the control bar and everything.

Why not both?



A summoned Black Pudding can also turn against you. That's a bug; but it's currently a useful bug because it can be used as a workaround for a different bug, which is that Black Puddings follow you around (like Dominate) instead of lingering in one place (like Suggestion).

I really hope Turbine fixes the second before the first. I really hope that.



In certain places it can be helpful to be able to obtain an enemy to fight when the quest doesn't provide you with one; but that's probably not a use the designers should encourage.

Indeed



Because undead are evil, so they're more agreeable to cooperate with evil goals.

Doesn't the spell in PnP work this way (the chance to betray you) regardless of whether the caster is good or evil?

I'm just saying that quests in this game heavily imply that necromancers are using create undead, yet their undead never turn against them.

In any case, mindless undead don't exactly know what "goals" or "intentions" are, being mindless. They tend to act out of instinct. Other summoned creatures actually have a more valid reason for turning against you: They're in pain.



They could also avoid that problem with a special-case code that Augment Summoning gives undead a -X penalty to break out of Create Undead Control.

I'd much rather they don't betray you, period. But that's an acceptable solution, so long as it actually works.



Griefing is much less important when its so obvious.

By "obvious" I mean "obvious exploit", not "it's obvious you're being griefed"

CrescentCalling_5
11-07-2010, 03:10 PM
I've actually wanted DDO to go more towards the PnP side of Necromancy for a long time (include the Animate Undead Spell and tier Create Undead and Create Greater Undead) and was planning on writing up a suggestion for this later :3 now I don't have to bother :3 unless this loses popularity in which case I've gotta :x

Diyon
11-07-2010, 03:19 PM
The chance that all other summons would turn against the caster have been removed. Except these. These still turn against the caster.

Not true. In 3.5e, summons never had this chance in the first place.

Angelus_dead
11-07-2010, 04:04 PM
Not true. In 3.5e, summons never had this chance in the first place.
What the D&D 3.5 rules say does not override the development history of the DDO software product.

Angelus_dead
11-07-2010, 04:11 PM
Doesn't the spell in PnP work this way (the chance to betray you) regardless of whether the caster is good or evil?
In D&D the undead created by the spell are immediately free to do whatever they like, and are no more obligated to obey the creator than if he had randomly met them walking down the street.

But they have intelligence from 8-13, and can tell that a spellcaster like that could destroy them more easily than they were created. So you can generally get them to cooperate via role playing.

Naturally the DDO interface (like most games) doesn't provide a way to offer monsters bribes or threats, so the designers instead gave a chance of temporary control as a way to simulate it. What might be more fun is if the creatures from Create Undead are 100% controlled until they see the caster seeming weak (low hp/sp or very debuffed), and only then do they get brave enough to rebel.

Diyon
11-07-2010, 04:15 PM
What the D&D 3.5 rules say does not override the development history of the DDO software product.

I was unaware that this had functioned that way in DDO before (I knew that you could summon more than one creature, but not that you could lose control).

Your suggestion about making the undead break when the caster seems weak seems like a great idea though.