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View Full Version : Please, just let us deconstruct GS items



Qezuzu
11-02-2010, 03:31 PM
It really is annoying to make a whole new GS item due to obtaining another item. Like, I had my GS HP item in my gloves slot. Then, I got Gloves of Titan's Grip, was told that triple negative (slay living guard) wasn't good at all, and was advised to switch it to the Cloak Spot and get something else (I chose Earthgrab guard). A few days after I finished the second tier, I got the shard, seal and base of the Epic Envenomed Cloak. So NOW I have to either switch my GS HP to my helmet slot, make it MinII and put toughness in the cloak Augment slot, or just totally ignore a totally awesome cloak I almost have.

Furthermore, I have +6 DEX on my RadII Rapier, back in my first life when I was finessed. And I made a LitII Shortsword but then was told the oversized TWF penalty is only -2.

OKAY so only my RadII is at Tier3. But seriously. Why shouldn't we be able to deconstruct GS items? Even for 70% of the mats back? Or 60%?

I don't think this would be an easy button. If you really think it is, limitations can be put on. Like you only get the energized shards back, or you can only "edit" a portion of your GS (i.e. change the base item, replace a Fire Dominion Ethereal Shard with a Fire Dominion Material or something) but need additional ingrids.

And I know I don't have to replace GS items because I got a slightly better item. And I don't want this to make GS items "rerollable", just make getting a new one to replace an old one not require the same length as time.

Gnorbert
11-02-2010, 03:35 PM
I'm just curious to know what the new economy would be based on if all the large ingredients suddenly dropped in value greatly.

I don't disagree with the sentiment, especially consdiering how the game has changed since the first GS were crafted. But I don't see what's in it for Turbine.

Brother_Solar
11-02-2010, 03:40 PM
But I don't see what's in it for Turbine.Money, naturally. :D Make Greensteel deconstruction possible only through either a massive amount of grinding or through an easy in-game Store purchase. As new and different loot came out, shifting your Greensteel items around could make said deconstruction item a top-seller.

Fetchi
11-03-2010, 09:49 AM
Money, naturally. :D Make Greensteel deconstruction possible only through either a massive amount of grinding or through an easy in-game Store purchase. As new and different loot came out, shifting your Greensteel items around could make said deconstruction item a top-seller.

Massive amount of grinding or spend real money to deconstruct vs. grinding out the ingredients for a new item for free - hrm let me think.

Why make it so complicated? If you make it more of a grind, all you do is burn out your players. Just put your greensteel item in the last altar with a supreme power shard and a scroll of dispel magic or some other item and get your ingredients back. All power shards have been consumed so you shouldn't get any of those back.

What's in it for Turbine? Your players keep enjoying the game and continue to run the shroud as you add more items and players continue to swap gear around.

lugoman
11-03-2010, 10:00 AM
I'm all for this even if you dont get any ingreds back. As long as I get the blank, I am good. I am sick of running the quest for blank ingreds - never get the one I need.

systemstate
11-03-2010, 10:01 AM
While this would certainly be convenient, I just can't bring myself to jump on the bandwagon. I always got the impression that the ingredients were destroyed upon creation/imbuing of items.

It's not like it's made of legos. You can't just take your MinII Greataxe apart and snap it back together as something else.

If this were ever implemented, there should be severe penalties for doing so. 50% loss of ingredients at least. Or only the ability to get the smalls and a few mediums out of it. No way should larges be able to be recovered.

It's like a baker wanting to get the eggs back out of the loaf of bread he just made. Not happenin'.

systemstate
11-03-2010, 10:02 AM
I'm all for this even if you dont get any ingreds back. As long as I get the blank, I am good. I am sick of running the quest for blank ingreds - never get the one I need.

This I could agree with. Stripping a GS item of all enchantments sounds reasonable.

Astraghal
11-03-2010, 10:09 AM
I wouldn't mind if you only got back a fraction or no ingredients, perhaps even just the blank.

All I care about is getting the cleanser back.

Even if we have to burn shards or cells to do it.

hermespan
11-03-2010, 10:26 AM
It's not like it's made of legos. You can't just take your MinII Greataxe apart and snap it back together as something else.
From a software development perspective this would be trivial, since there's only one way to make a given item, at least for purposes of stripping the imbued shards out.

From a D&D perspective you may be correct. If you simply attach an imbued shard to a weapon, you should be able to easily detach it. If the shard imbues the weapon and the weapon magically absorbs the shard, then no way. This should be a D&D canon decision.

I'm split on this issue. On the one hand, my first greensteel item was an earthgrab khopesh. Bad decision due to incomplete research. I'd love to turn it into a heavy pick. On the other hand, there should be a penalty for making crafting mistakes and hasty decisions.

Phidius
11-03-2010, 10:51 AM
...
It's not like it's made of legos. You can't just take your MinII Greataxe apart and snap it back together as something else.
...

Obviously we can't do this - that's why we're asking Turbine to allow it... because THEY can take Greensteel apart and snap it back together as something else.


...
If this were ever implemented, there should be severe penalties for doing so. 50% loss of ingredients at least. Or only the ability to get the smalls and a few mediums out of it. No way should larges be able to be recovered.

It's like a baker wanting to get the eggs back out of the loaf of bread he just made. Not happenin'.

This isn't about trying to make the game as close to reality as possible. It's about keeping the player base happy and playing the game.

An argument about how this would hurt the game, or drive players away (like unbalancing the economy, devaluing crafting skills, etc...) would be a better approach than comparing greensteel to baked goods.

Gadget2775
11-03-2010, 11:24 AM
As opposed to flat out deconstruction I'd love to see an Enchantment swap...Insert, GS Blank (IE GS Helm), Green Steel Item (IE Min 2 Boots), and a SoP for each level of enchantment being transfered (Would have to accept one Supreme even for dual Shard items). Out put would be one GS Min II Helm. Everything else is consumed in the crafting process.

Advantage to Turbine: Still requires running the Vale Quest for the new GS Blank and Shroud for Shards. Additionally, they could always add GS Blanks and Shards to their Store. Would provide them with additional monies and players with an alternate to grinding through the vale quest.

systemstate
11-03-2010, 11:30 AM
Obviously we can't do this - that's why we're asking Turbine to allow it... because THEY can take Greensteel apart and snap it back together as something else.



This isn't about trying to make the game as close to reality as possible. It's about keeping the player base happy and playing the game.

An argument about how this would hurt the game, or drive players away (like unbalancing the economy, devaluing crafting skills, etc...) would be a better approach than comparing greensteel to baked goods.

Why do my reasons have to be loftier than those who argue for this change? I think my argument made perfect sense. A big reason I play this game is that I enjoy the alternate reality of DDO. I don't believe that full deconstruction would make sense to my character.

I could ask the same questions of you as well. How is lacking the ability to deconstruct GS items hurting the game or driving players away? I don't see that it is doing either.

I'm all for either of the the following:

-Stripping of all enchantments/imbuements, leaving only the original greensteel blank with no ingredients returned.
-Easy changing of enchantments/imbuements similar to how draconic armor works.

Asketes
11-03-2010, 11:31 AM
hehe I'm really indifferent about this.. would be nice but whateva:



Currently sitting in my WF THF fighter's bank or in my inventory already made :

Weapons:
1 LSII Greataxe (for next tr)
1 min II greaaxe (for next tr)
1 MIN II maul (this tr)
1 trip pos maul (this tr)
2 min II khopesh (last tr)
2 lsII khopesh (last tr)

Items:
1 trip acid/earthgrab cloak (this tr)
1 conc opp goggles (for future tr/sp)
1 trip air goggles (hp item for every life so far)

~~~~I'll never get rid of these~~~~

2 x haste clickies (for EVERY tr)
2 x displace clickies (for EVERY tr)

Delt
11-03-2010, 11:38 AM
I wouldn't mind this, I have a stack of old GS gear from back when the raid was new...I'm holding on to it, probably foolishly, in the hopes of a deconstruct.

It's just laziness, however, and to be fair a bunch of those items are ml 8 weapons still -- so I can't complain.

Phaye
11-03-2010, 11:44 AM
When I saw this thread, I though it was a necro of an old one (yes there was an old one with many people signing it).

Since it's a new one, I'll say it again:
Please Turbine, give us a way to change our old/obsolete or made by error greensteel items.

There is one for Dragontouched, for Epic, even the basic rituals can be replaced (armor etc...).

I remember in one of Jerry's "Ask the Devs" a developper saying something into the lines of "We're looking into a solution" but there was no follow up.

I hope it can still be rethink a bit as there is many good suggestions here in the Suggestions forum.

Phidius
11-03-2010, 11:48 AM
Why do my reasons have to be loftier than those who argue for this change? I think my argument made perfect sense. A big reason I play this game is that I enjoy the alternate reality of DDO. I don't believe that full deconstruction would make sense to my character.
...

It's not a question of loftier, just one of a better approach.

DDO is nothing like reality - using reality as a basis for your argument is going to make it weaker. For example, I've yet to find a bar that would allow me to bind my spirit in case I get killed by a drunk driver on my way home - should we remove those from the game?

No one would force you to deconstruct anything.


...
I could ask the same questions of you as well. How is lacking the ability to deconstruct GS items hurting the game or driving players away? I don't see that it is doing either.
...

The friend that introduced me to DDO left earlier this year - one of his many reasons for leaving was feeling bitter over the "nerf" to transmuting after he'd finally finished his 2 Min2 rapiers. While this wasn't his only reason, the ability to recover his investment might have been enough to keep him playing.

He seems happier now, at any rate.


...
I'm all for either of the the following:

-Stripping of all enchantments/imbuements, leaving only the original greensteel blank with no ingredients returned.
-Easy changing of enchantments/imbuements similar to how draconic armor works.

So you're OK with getting the flour and sugar out of that loaf of bread, but not the eggs and salt?

This is the problem with using reality to justify game design - remaining consistent.

Qezuzu
11-03-2010, 11:49 AM
It's not like it's made of legos. You can't just take your MinII Greataxe apart and snap it back together as something else.

It's like a baker wanting to get the eggs back out of the loaf of bread he just made. Not happenin'.

You can get your atoms blasted apart by a disintegrate, but you can get a whole new body within seconds, at full health and a minor neg level.

I'm not saying we should be able to disassemble and reassemble GS items at will, but I'd just like some alternative crafting method that doesn't require a huge grind just because you made a mistake/are unhappy with the effect/obtained another powerful item.

Such as:

Transferring the effects of one GS accesory to another
Wiping the enchantments from a GS blank
Removing and preserving the enchantments as shards but destroying the blank, with a chance to lose the shards too

patang01
11-03-2010, 11:50 AM
It's a game that should be for developer profit and gamers enjoyment. How 'real' it is, shouldn't be as important as making sure players come back and play it and it provides profits.

I can see two different options - one that only give the materials back. Shards, power stones and the item is gone, but you keep all the material (including the materials that made the item). You might not have to grind for the material but you still need to collect the signet stone and the shards and power it up again.
Or a more expensive option - one that gives you the shroud material and the item back. The shards are gone but you get the shroud materials.

A deconstruction of a green steel item would be a nice source of income for Turbine (similar to lesser reincarnations) and provide a way for customers to be able to get a better use of new items and decommission old green steel items without feeling like you wasted all your time. I don't care if that would have an impact on the auction houses since most of them are inflated anyways.

NinjaNeed
11-03-2010, 11:57 AM
I wouldn't mind if you only got back a fraction or no ingredients, perhaps even just the blank.



Correct me if I am wrong, but is this not already in the game? If you make a Min2 great axe and want to change it to a Rad2 great axe is it not just a case of putting the new materials in and re-crafting it?

systemstate
11-03-2010, 12:07 PM
It's not a question of loftier, just one of a better approach...

Despite my lack of ability to sway the masses with an analogy, I still don't feel that full deconstruction fits in-game. Perhaps it's just personal preference. Either way, we will simply have to agree to disagree on this.

Thrudh
11-03-2010, 12:10 PM
What's in it for Turbine? Your players keep enjoying the game and continue to run the shroud as you add more items and players continue to swap gear around.

If people can de-construct, why would they continue to run the Shroud?

Lorien_the_First_One
11-03-2010, 12:12 PM
I don't think they will give it to us, but they should.

GS deconstruction just makes sense at this point in the game.

Give a desconstruction item as one of the items on your 20th/40th/etc runs, and give an instore option as well. That way you have the classic grind or pay option, everyone wins.

I bet most vets would be happy to just bet back their larges, but if they gave everything back it would be even more beneficial to new and casual players.

For those who suggest that allowing this removes a grind, that was one of the argumements against LR - and that has proven to be something that has improved the "fun factor" of the game and made money for Turbine.

It's time... bring decon on!

sirgog
11-03-2010, 12:14 PM
/signed.

Implement it like this:

On Hard and Elite, remove Large Splintered Horns, and add (unbound) Lesser and Greater Deconstruction Essences in their place (Lesser on Hard, Greater on Elite). Also sell these essences in the DDO store.

Add these recipies, all of which adhere to the general rule of 'no more than five stacks into the altar, no more than one stack out':

Lesser Essence + Non-cleansed Imbued Greensteel item = Greensteel blank, unbound. (Example: Lesser Essence + bound Great Commander Greensteel Maul of Radiance = unbound Greensteel Maul). Probably the best option for tier 1-2 weapons you want to deconstruct.

Lesser Essence + Cleansed Imbued Greensteel Accessory = Essence of Cleansing, bound to character.

Greater Essence + Imbued Greensteel item + Greensteel blank - transfers the properties of the imbued item to the blank. (Example: Cleansed, Supreme Tyrant Greensteel Belt of Earth 10/15/20 hp + Greater Essence + Greensteel Helm = Cleansed, Supreme Tyrant Greensteel Helm of Earth 10/15/20hp)

Greater Essence + Imbued Supreme Tyrant Greensteel item = a stack of 12 or 24 (as appropriate) of an item called 'Mysterious Ingredient'

Mysterious Ingredient + Shavarath Energy Cell (of whichever type the Devs feel is appropriate): Roll 1d100, and create the following:
1-21: Large Devil Scale
22-40: Large Sulfurous Stone
41-58: Large Twisted Shrapnel
59-75: Large Glowing Arrowhead
76-89: Large Twisted Chain
90-100: Large Gnawed Bone
These attempt to mirror the rates at which each ingredient is used in crafting, were you to make one of each of the 36 possible shards. The energy cell requirement serves as a platinum sink



Edit: Oh and as for why Turbine might do this: They don't want people playing the Shroud forever, they (should) want you to 'finish' that adventure pack - and purchase the next one.

Phidius
11-03-2010, 12:14 PM
If people can de-construct, why would they continue to run the Shroud?

Chance at a +3 tome, and an excellant plat run. Not to mention having to replace the randomly-lost ingredients.

Without deconstruction, it's pretty rare for me to decide to replace a GS item (grind) with an epic item (major grind). Reducing the grind means more replayability, for me at least.

Lorien_the_First_One
11-03-2010, 12:14 PM
If people can de-construct, why would they continue to run the Shroud?

More items, different characters, +3 tomes.

If people can TR and keep all their raid loot, why would anyone run raids anymore?

If people can LR+3 to fix broken characters, why would the level any new characters?

We've heard it before, it doesn't turn out to be true. And to the extent it is true, its offset by the number of people that will enjoy the game more than thus play more.

DragonMageT
11-03-2010, 12:20 PM
Give a desconstruction item as one of the items on your 20th/40th/etc runs, and give an instore option as well. That way you have the classic grind or pay option, everyone wins.


I really like this suggestion, it goes along with current GS cleansing option for 20th.
On 20th/40th/etc, +2/+3 tomes, cleansing item, and deconstruction item.

BTA would be nice but if not BTC is fine.

sirgog
11-03-2010, 12:25 PM
If people can de-construct, why would they continue to run the Shroud?

Some people enjoy the raid. They'll continue to run it. Others are sick of it. They'll run it much less, and will run other things they enjoy more instead.

Win-win situation - and Turbine sells more adventure packs to those in the second category.

DragonMageT
11-03-2010, 12:31 PM
I really like this suggestion, it goes along with current GS cleansing option for 20th.
On 20th/40th/etc, +2/+3 tomes, cleansing item, and deconstruction item.

BTA would be nice but if not BTC is fine.

New thought:

No deconstruction item for 20th, just cleansing item.
Placing cleansing item in Altar 1 deconstruct GS item back to ingreds/etc.

Placing cleansing item in Altar 3 cleanses item.

Save coding and design, FTW!

Khanyth
11-03-2010, 01:34 PM
/not signed

Even though I get flamed for it, my opinion is still the same: you don't need to have the latest and greatest equipment 24/7/365 to be useful and all this would do would be easy buttoning GS crafting.

Again, I'm sure it's my unpopular opinion, but no one really has come up with a convincing arguement as to why this should be an option where there are more pressing things that the Devs can work on.

waterboytkd
11-03-2010, 02:49 PM
New thought:

No deconstruction item for 20th, just cleansing item.
Placing cleansing item in Altar 1 deconstruct GS item back to ingreds/etc.

Placing cleansing item in Altar 3 cleanses item.

Save coding and design, FTW!

I like this one. But here's an alteration:

Rather than getting back all of the initial ingredients, why not just get the blank and the imbued shards? From a mechanic standpoint, some grinding will still need to be done to make new GS items. But, a character could start banking the imbued shards they already made, and reattaching them to new blanks, which would cut down the time drastically to switch just an accessory slot. Even cut down the time to get new abilities (granting that some of the same shards are being used).

From a flavor standpoint, the crafting of a greensteel item is like attaching magic augmenters to an item. Once attached, the item gains properties. But nothing says these shards can't be unattached and reattached to something else.

Also, I'm all for an in-store item for deconstruction. Why? First, it's easier (getting 20 shroud completions takes me close to 3 months, as I can't be on all the time). Second, it makes Turbine money. Why do I want Turbine to make money? I don't know, I guess I just like it when the companies that make the stuff I like do well... :D

Lorien_the_First_One
11-03-2010, 02:52 PM
I like this one. But here's an alteration:

Rather than getting back all of the initial ingredients, why not just get the blank and the imbued shards? From a mechanic standpoint, some grinding will still need to be done to make new GS items. But, a character could start banking the imbued shards they already made, and reattaching them to new blanks, which would cut down the time drastically to switch just an accessory slot. Even cut down the time to get new abilities (granting that some of the same shards are being used).

That wouldn't help if the problem was someone miscrafted he shard itself. Or they crafted the shard because it was useful at one point, but then Turbine changed the rules.

If they add deconstruction, it should deconstruct.

Lorien_the_First_One
11-03-2010, 02:53 PM
New thought:

No deconstruction item for 20th, just cleansing item.
Placing cleansing item in Altar 1 deconstruct GS item back to ingreds/etc.

Placing cleansing item in Altar 3 cleanses item.

Save coding and design, FTW!

That's just complicated enough that people will mess it up and cleanse an item instead of deconstructing (or visa versa).

It's safest to have two seperate items.

daniel7
11-03-2010, 03:06 PM
Deconstruction=good
Penalties such as a loss of ingredients=fair

Fetchi
11-03-2010, 03:14 PM
If people can de-construct, why would they continue to run the Shroud?

To make more items to deconstruct? To get more ingredients for other characters. 10 out of my 15 toons run the shroud. One of them has everything he needs from the shroud. I still continue to run it with him for completions, to help guildies, and many others reasons.

Like other players, I have a few greensteel items in the bank just taking up space; Either they were filled with something more useful in that slot or they were mess ups when the shroud first came out. It would be nice to get those materials or blanks back. Game breaking? Doubt it. Would it mean less Shroud runs? Doubt it.

It doesn't matter either way to me. I'll continue to play and run the Shroud even if deconstruction never makes it in. I think it would be a nice feature to implement.

Kindoki
11-03-2010, 03:14 PM
When I saw this thread, I though it was a necro of an old one (yes there was an old one with many people signing it).

Since it's a new one, I'll say it again:
Please Turbine, give us a way to change our old/obsolete or made by error greensteel items.

There is one for Dragontouched, for Epic, even the basic rituals can be replaced (armor etc...).

I remember in one of Jerry's "Ask the Devs" a developper saying something into the lines of "We're looking into a solution" but there was no follow up.

I hope it can still be rethink a bit as there is many good suggestions here in the Suggestions forum.


While this would certainly be convenient, I just can't bring myself to jump on the bandwagon. I always got the impression that the ingredients were destroyed upon creation/imbuing of items.

It's not like it's made of legos. You can't just take your MinII Greataxe apart and snap it back together as something else.

If this were ever implemented, there should be severe penalties for doing so. 50% loss of ingredients at least. Or only the ability to get the smalls and a few mediums out of it. No way should larges be able to be recovered.

It's like a baker wanting to get the eggs back out of the loaf of bread he just made. Not happenin'.


I'm not on board with deconstruction. Once it's done, it's done. I think legos are a perfect example of what this isn't.

What I would like to to see is the ability to recraft.

For example, if you take the ingredients for a MinII greataxe and a LitII greataxe, the only two ingredients that don't overlap are the focus of air/earth and superior focus of air/earth. So, if you put your great axe in, your focus of air, a great shard of power, a superior focus of air, and a supreme shard of power; BAM! you've got a LitII from MinII.

Do the same type of thing to make a greataxe into a maul, etc.

Actually, I would make it a two step process so you can include energy cells in each step.

danielhrobbins
11-03-2010, 03:17 PM
I have to agree, in fact, I think if it is allowed you should lose all ingredients and only be allowed to get your greensteel blank back ...


While this would certainly be convenient, I just can't bring myself to jump on the bandwagon. I always got the impression that the ingredients were destroyed upon creation/imbuing of items.

It's not like it's made of legos. You can't just take your MinII Greataxe apart and snap it back together as something else.

If this were ever implemented, there should be severe penalties for doing so. 50% loss of ingredients at least. Or only the ability to get the smalls and a few mediums out of it. No way should larges be able to be recovered.

It's like a baker wanting to get the eggs back out of the loaf of bread he just made. Not happenin'.

Fetchi
11-03-2010, 03:28 PM
Not really sure about this legos argument.

You don't have a problem with fusing 5 pie pieces together and getting a signet stone in some magical altar with teeth.

You don't have a problem with fusing a signet stone with some chipmunk funk, the nuts of a rooster, and some fairy hair and getting a longsword?!:eek:

But you do have a problem reversing the process?

LOL. Mmmmk.

Delt
11-03-2010, 03:30 PM
I have to say though, this reminds me of request people supported in the past and a bunch of us expected to come eventually.

Give us a Shroud vendor (like the GH relic vendor), so we can trade in our extra ingreds for others. Pulling a Bone/Horn/Chain in the end chest shouldn't feel like you just lost a roll :confused:

Asketes
11-03-2010, 06:18 PM
Correct me if I am wrong, but is this not already in the game? If you make a Min2 great axe and want to change it to a Rad2 great axe is it not just a case of putting the new materials in and re-crafting it?

pretty sure this is a big *NO GO*



I wouldn't mind if you only got back a fraction or no ingredients, perhaps even just the blank.

All I care about is getting the cleanser back.

Even if we have to burn shards or cells to do it.

so you're saying that it's harder to get a pie piece than all your larges? I get the cleanser idea, just your first sentence is kind of ... ambiguously worded.

Ybbald
11-04-2010, 10:27 AM
It takes a lot of work to plan out GS
You should do it carefully.
I am against deconstructing items just to switch spots. You choose a slot, you make an investment. Deal with it.

However, if you accidentally put one wrong ingredient in and make the wrong blank or imbued shard, you should be able to undo it.
Just say the magic needs a few moments to bind and if you act quickly, you can separate the ingredients before they fuse. Put the item in your inventory with a 2 minute timer like hirelings and at the end of that, it turns into the completed manufactured ingredient/item. Before that, you can put it in the altar with an energy cell to split it apart.


Or you could have an essence of separation from 20 completions of Shroud that you can pick instead of cleansing essence to split an item back into it's components.