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View Full Version : Petition to Improve Assassins in Epic



Ookami007
10-29-2010, 02:08 PM
Dear Turbine,

This is a petition to please fix the Assassin prestige class. While I love the prestige class - despite the fact that there is not a single assassin looking outfit in the entire game - it is VERY lackluster at end game content.

Specifically, I'm talking about the top two tier abilities. Our staple ability - assassinate - is completely ineffective on ALL epic content due to Epic Ward (deathward). This is a 2nd tier ability (Assassin II). It's also the ability for which the prestige class is named. Dismissing it so haphazzardly is really insulting. You'd think that a level 20 assassin would have come up with a way to bypass that guard... you know... since he's an... ASSASSIN.

In addition, our feared Vorpal Strike (Assassin III) ability is useless on Epic content as well. This seems absurd. Why completely nerf a great prestige class upon reaching level 20, when they should be one of the most feared prestige classes out there.

Obviously, I understand balance and having an assassin be able to instantly kill red, purple or special mobs would be over powering. But Epic trash mobs?

So here are a few suggestions to make the assassin prestige class more valuable in epic.

1) Against Epics, turn the Assassinate and vorpal strikes into stuns. Stuns are available to a number of different classes and would not be overpowering.

2) On a successful assassinate or vorpal, apply a hamstring type effect. Again, already there... so nothing unbalancing.

3) On a successful assassinate or vorpal, double any sneak attack damage. This would be inline with the class and its understanding of killing. At most, you're talking about an extra 150 points so again, not very overpowering.

4) On a successful assassinate or vorpal, apply a destruction type effect that reduces AC by -8 for a set period of time.


These are just a few suggestions that would compensate for the nerf of the assassin class on Epics. Very few - if any - other prestige classes have had their top two tier abilities made impotent by Epic. Please fix this.

Thank you.

MrCow
10-29-2010, 02:18 PM
Against Epics, turn the Assassinate and vorpal strikes into stuns. Stuns are available to a number of different classes and would not be overpowering.

Considering Assassinate is supposed to be DDO's form of Death Attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm#deathAttack) from pen and paper, having it do a paralysis effect is not a farfetched thing to request.


Death Attack

If an assassin studies his victim for 3 rounds and then makes a sneak attack with a melee weapon that successfully deals damage, the sneak attack has the additional effect of possibly either paralyzing or killing the target (assassin’s choice). While studying the victim, the assassin can undertake other actions so long as his attention stays focused on the target and the target does not detect the assassin or recognize the assassin as an enemy. If the victim of such an attack fails a Fortitude save (DC 10 + the assassin’s class level + the assassin’s Int modifier) against the kill effect, she dies. If the saving throw fails against the paralysis effect, the victim is rendered helpless and unable to act for 1d6 rounds plus 1 round per level of the assassin. If the victim’s saving throw succeeds, the attack is just a normal sneak attack. Once the assassin has completed the 3 rounds of study, he must make the death attack within the next 3 rounds.

Angelus_dead
10-29-2010, 02:33 PM
Giving Assassins a toggle to change their kill effects into paralysis has been suggested several times before. It would have additional value in quests like Hound of Xoriat or Sleeping Dust where you face a serious penalty for accidently killing a nearby enemy.

BansheeMalthus
10-29-2010, 02:43 PM
Don't play an assassin type rogue, but I would have to agree with this. Course in my opinion, the epic wards are a little overdone, and the HP's? If we do an epic quest, can't we get a multiplier to Hp's and SP's as well? Even just a doubling would make as much sense as the HP's mobs have.

Superspeed_Hi5
10-29-2010, 02:48 PM
/not signed - other than the incredibly expensive Void IV monk ability, nothing is an insta kill in epics. Anyones insta death effects are negated. No quivering palms, no Fingers, no implosions, no wails, etc.

Letting assassinate work or change effects would imbalance epics as is. Epics are supposed to be a challenge. If Assassinate got through epic death ward rogues would be able to solo all the way to the end of most if not all epic quests where there are no undead.

Unless the devs were to change everyones insta kills then I would have to disagree.

Ookami007
10-29-2010, 03:10 PM
/not signed - other than the incredibly expensive Void IV monk ability, nothing is an insta kill in epics. Anyones insta death effects are negated. No quivering palms, no Fingers, no implosions, no wails, etc.

Letting assassinate work or change effects would imbalance epics as is. Epics are supposed to be a challenge. If Assassinate got through epic death ward rogues would be able to solo all the way to the end of most if not all epic quests where there are no undead.

Unless the devs were to change everyones insta kills then I would have to disagree.

Sorry to see you didn't read the post. I offered several alternatives to insta-death.... and as far as monk's Void IV ability... it's not as expensive as a 3rd teir MAIN prestige ability.

Cheers!

Jay203
10-29-2010, 03:20 PM
but mechanics needs more love :(
their abilities are meh at best even before reaching EPIC :(:(:(

Ssmooth
10-29-2010, 03:50 PM
People play mechanics at cap?? Oh......

Mercureal
10-29-2010, 04:02 PM
/not signed - other than the incredibly expensive Void IV monk ability, nothing is an insta kill in epics. Anyones insta death effects are negated. No quivering palms, no Fingers, no implosions, no wails, etc.

Letting assassinate work or change effects would imbalance epics as is. Epics are supposed to be a challenge. If Assassinate got through epic death ward rogues would be able to solo all the way to the end of most if not all epic quests where there are no undead.

Unless the devs were to change everyones insta kills then I would have to disagree.

As the OP notes, he did give alternatives to the kill effect. Secondly, a sneak attack-based assassinate would let a rogue solo epic quests? Maybe he could solo up until getting aggro, but completions would be pretty difficult, I think.

Superspeed_Hi5
10-29-2010, 08:50 PM
Sorry to see you didn't read the post. I offered several alternatives to insta-death.... and as far as monk's Void IV ability... it's not as expensive as a 3rd teir MAIN prestige ability.

Cheers!

'i read your alternatives. The point is that noones instas work. I also noted that in order for your alternatives to be implemented all instas would need to be altered to something along what you suggested.

Also it takes 34 APs to get to void IV which is why you dont see every monk running around with it.

Your assasinate works perfectly well in normal quests. Epic is something different - everyone had to change tactics for epics so either adapt or dont but assassinate is fine as is. Epic is not end game content IQ and Amrath are. Epic is its own animal. Just because you hit 20 doesnt mean you can step right into epics. It takes gear and resources that the average player doesnt always have.

still /Not signed

CrescentCalling_5
10-29-2010, 09:00 PM
/signed against the wishes of Superspeed_Hi5

Assassinate is a replacement for death attack. Death attack was a toggle-type ability. I don't see any particular reason that Assassin's can choose to switch from killing a target to paralyzing a target. Paralysis isn't blocked in epic, yada yada, so what? It's not going to overly imbalance the game just to give an assassin the ability to paralyze a single target for a while (especially considering the boss saving throws are high enough that paralysis would be difficult to attempt to begin with).

Superspeed_Hi5
10-29-2010, 09:10 PM
Unfortunately this is not PnP and you guys are lucky that it isnt seeing as how PnP requires an evil alignment to even be an assassin.

Assassinate works fine in actual endgame - ie Amrath and IQ. So whats the problem? You guys are missing the point Epic is not endgame.

Also there are weapons with those effects you want - just switch to them instead.

nerdychaz
10-29-2010, 10:01 PM
I have never been in epic content with my assassin, but how often are you able to proc a sneak attack? 20d6 is pretty crazy to me and sounds like it's plenty of SA damage at end game (like I said, never been, just speculation) or do all mobs have 100% fort? Then what about the new versions of "opportunist" and "precision." Will those bypass the fort of epic mobs?

Dylos_Moon
10-29-2010, 10:08 PM
They could just add Limb Chopper to Assassin III

Jaid314
10-29-2010, 10:23 PM
I have never been in epic content with my assassin, but how often are you able to proc a sneak attack? 20d6 is pretty crazy to me and sounds like it's plenty of SA damage at end game (like I said, never been, just speculation) or do all mobs have 100% fort? Then what about the new versions of "opportunist" and "precision." Will those bypass the fort of epic mobs?

epic mobs have a lot of hit points. and by a lot, i mean that when you set up an autocrit and have 3-4 level 20 fully buffed melees beating on them (with autocrit, no less, where everything hits and is multiplied and people get heavy picks with special on-crit abilities just for that reason; there's a reason you need mass hold monster for epics), it still takes several seconds before the mob dies.

it has nothing to do with fortification, it has to do with the fact that 10d6 sneak attack damage where you have to stop attacking, enter stealth, and then strike your target, is not nearly as fast as simply hitting your target for the same time period.

Ookami007
11-01-2010, 03:03 PM
'i read your alternatives. The point is that noones instas work. I also noted that in order for your alternatives to be implemented all instas would need to be altered to something along what you suggested.

Also it takes 34 APs to get to void IV which is why you dont see every monk running around with it.

Your assasinate works perfectly well in normal quests. Epic is something different - everyone had to change tactics for epics so either adapt or dont but assassinate is fine as is. Epic is not end game content IQ and Amrath are. Epic is its own animal. Just because you hit 20 doesnt mean you can step right into epics. It takes gear and resources that the average player doesnt always have.

still /Not signed

Ah.. I see... you read it, but simply didn't put any thought into.

No problem... I'll explain.

See... every other prestige class works in epic. The ranger still gets an extra chance to hit with his off-hand, frenzied beserker still gets his bonuses to crit range, etc. when raging, pale master gets his abilities, radiant servant gets his, etc.

An assassin on the other hand, loses his tier II and tier III abilities the moment he steps into an Epic quest.

So, this has nothing to do with insta-kills and has everything to do with a prestige class breaking the SECOND an assassin walks into a Epic dungeon. This means, an assassin is effectively WEAKER in epics in ALL situations... not just some... ALL.

Name one other prestige class where that happens? You can't. It doesn't happen to any other prestige class.

As far as game change dynamics... those happen all the time. No reason they can't incorporate it into the next update.

Give assassin's a toggle to toggle between instadeath and stun/paralysis. The ability to stun already exists - so no new code there. The ability to toggle abilities on and off already exists.

So... no horrid game changing stuff here.

Ybbald
11-01-2010, 06:06 PM
I have never been in epic content with my assassin, but how often are you able to proc a sneak attack? 20d6 is pretty crazy to me and sounds like it's plenty of SA damage at end game (like I said, never been, just speculation) or do all mobs have 100% fort? Then what about the new versions of "opportunist" and "precision." Will those bypass the fort of epic mobs?

Compared to what?

This is rogue's advantage. What if your fighter lost all his feats and kensai bonuses. What if the barbarians lost all his rages. What if the rangers lost their favored enemies and extra swings. What if paladins lost their smites. What if monks lost their finishing moves?

20d6 is not pretty crazy. It is the basis of rogue damage.

Paladins and monks get stuns. Fighters and barbs get huge bonuses to theirs. Giving rogues a stun with a 15 second timer just puts us on a level playing field.

In epics:
An assassin loses his tier II and III prestige class
An assassin can not reliably disarm traps which can wipe a party. 14 base int + 2 tome + 6 item + 15 DD item + 3 excep in skills + skill boost + 3 vent bracers + GH + 2 luck +23 ranks and epic traps are still hit or miss for me, crit failing on an 11 in evon2.
An assassin can not contribute as much dps. Stunning is a major epic strategy. Our SA damage is not increased on crits. Every other class benefits from stuns way way more than rogues.

No epic group needs an assassin. They're better off with any other dps class.

Garseya
11-01-2010, 06:30 PM
I agree... Really, rogues get no love end game. Having built several gimp ones, I can understand why.. I've not tried Epic with mine...

Even with a decent assasin build, mobs in lvl 16+ q's are very difficult to assasinate. Try assasinating in the Vale, Reavers Refuge (Enter the Kobold around the mount is fun), or Inspired Quater on hard or elite...


Parties move so quickly, those beautiful double and triple kills are difficult to come by at best... I'm lucky that I have arcane friend's willing to use mass hold spells and the like to really utilize my toon to it's max... random pugs or solo'n, forget about your party even caring they have a rogues... or caring they waste resources hurting themselves in traps...

So much more could be done to give the rogue a larger and more entertaining role in DDO, how boring is a bunch of min/maxed clones running around.... or Warforge as they are called by Cannith... (yes, I love my wf sorcs too)

minirant/end

Deathseeker
11-01-2010, 06:43 PM
I agree with the idea of an alternate toggle for assassinate, and that it should be some form of crowd control (a pumped up paralyze effect sounds good).

The dps from an assassin at level 20 in epic is fine. But the fact that they lose their primary abilities, and have no form of crowd control bonuses (ie Stunning blow, trip, etc) make them a bit vanilla in epic. Add to that they inherently have less HP than other classes, there's no reason to not give them a bit of a bump on epic only (as Assassins are stellar in non-epic content).

With regard to vorpal strikes, Im a proponent of giving all vorpals the ability to instakill an epic mob, but giving the epic mob a save against it that is basically having to roll a one to fail. Thus, you'd only see a successful instakill 1 in 400 swings (1 in 20 to vorp, then 1 in 20 to fail save). I believe this would be similar to how trap-the-soul weapons are working in epic. I guess technically its even worse because the crit has to be confirmed, but the general thought is the same. Make it work, but make is such that its a nice bonus when it actually works every once in a while and not a primary strategy.

Quarterling
11-01-2010, 06:48 PM
I agree to the OP.

If slitting one's throat or shattering a spine won't work in Epic quests because the enemies are "too Epic", then how about using all that energy to focus on a less-lethal area if they are safeguarded from insta-death?

Deathseeker
11-01-2010, 06:49 PM
Assassinate works fine in actual endgame - ie Amrath and IQ. So whats the problem? You guys are missing the point Epic is not endgame.


I think you are burying your head in the sand. Like it or not, Epic IS endgame in DDO. One can argue it shouldn't be that way, but currently that is how it is.

You simply cannot play a level 20 in DDO for very long with any type of challenge without doing Epic. Otherwise, you are running the same 10 quests over and over and over, or you are playing content beneath your level.

You cannot achieve the top tier, endgame loot without running epic.

Being unhappy with it is one thing, but being in denial is another...