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gorgorothsixsixsix
10-25-2010, 05:52 AM
there are samurai in eberron? yeah. http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Samurai

special abilities (these are stuff i chose from http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Samurai_%283.5e_Class%29 and tweaked a bit when too powerful. my intention was to create a melee class who is strong against casters)

1. ancestral weaponry; the weapon chosen gains ghost touch property. (like kensei attack bonuses that would work only with the chosen weapon again)

2. Pledge of Loyalty: +4 bonus against mind-affecting effects. (enchancement?)

3. Kiai! (Ex): At 3rd level, a Samurai may convert a successful strike into a confirmed critical hit (...)

note: this would be a toggle button with x charges. like if you activate it and miss, charge is not used. but if you hit it's a crit for sure and charge used.

(...) He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to half his Samurai level + 2.

4. Whirlwind Attack: A Samurai gains Whirlwind as a bonus feat at 4th level.

5. Blindfighting: A Samurai gains Blind Fighting as a bonus feat at 6th level. If the Samurai already has this feat, he may choose a Combat Feat instead, but only if he meets the prerequisites of that feat.

6. Terrible Blows (Su): At 6th level, a Samurai's Ancestral Weapon bypasses Damage Reduction and ignores Hardness. (this would be too much i guess, maybe an enhacement starts with 5 bypass damage reduction or something like that)

6. Parry Magic (Su): At 8th level, a Samurai may use his Ancestral Weapon to parry magic targeted at him. When the Samurai is targeted by a spell or supernatural ability, he may take an Attack of Opportunity against the targeted effect. If he can make an attack roll against an AC equal to the spell or effect's DC with this Attack of Opportunity, the effect does not affect him. (super cool, no?)

note; (SU)per natural abilities doesn't work in antimagic field like beholders'.

7. Deny Caster Defenses (Ex): At 13th level, a Samurai attacking with his Ancestral Weapon ignores any AC bonuses on his targets that come from spells or spell-like abilities.

8. Reflect Magic (Su): At 16th level, an spell effect that would be dispelled by a successful use of the Samurai's Parry Magic ability can instead be reflected back on the caster, as per a spell turning effect.

even if not samurai, what other anti caster melee you would like to see in game?

Emizand
10-25-2010, 05:55 AM
what other anti caster melee you would like to see in game?

Occult Slayer

gorgorothsixsixsix
10-25-2010, 04:17 PM
so after some more reading, i realized that this should be a prestige class for fighter instead of a new class.

something like, "samurai I" gives +4 bonus against mind-affecting effects, ghost touch property for ancestral weapon and kiai.

requirement for "samurai I"; whirlwind attack (which of course also requires combat expertise and spring attack)

and yes, combat expertise also requires 13 int.

then "samurai II" gives terrible blows, parry magic and blind fighting.

requirement for samurai II; iron will, discipline and lightning reflexes.

i make so many requirements i know because fighters already good enough and samurai prestige class would make them a bit too powerful. so he gotta use some of those bonus feats.

finally "samurai III"; deny caster defenses and reflect magic.

which requires nothing.

............................

the only problem is that int 13 but then again this would go great when multiclassing with rogues and even some tankish tempests.

oh, also katana pls :p

Aranticus
10-25-2010, 05:19 PM
Many of the abilities that are listed are very poor for a mmo setting

Aaxeyu
10-25-2010, 05:27 PM
Here's a suggestion: Learn the game before making suggestions.

Mister_Peace
10-25-2010, 05:31 PM
Twf fighter, bastard sword and short sword

full ranks of Intimidate

brigandine armor

done

Edit: don't forget LN alignment

voodoogroves
10-25-2010, 05:38 PM
Samurai is a base class in 3.x. Of course, it's pretty darn weak. I'd rather play a fighter with different skinned armor. That'd be nifty. The Samurai class has similar problems to many other 3.5 base classes in that it has non-scaling abilities in the class progression and was either ignored or dipped only. Swashbuckler is in a similar boat - optimized no one really took more than a few levels. That said, I'd love to see Scout and Swashbuckler.


Classes which would translate best as PREs or even base classes would have meaningful abilities that scale as the character progresses.


so - I guess - I don't need a samurai



And further, a samurai without kick-rear armor would be lame. I'd rather have new armor skins, new helmets and new weapons to look like one.

Chai
10-25-2010, 05:53 PM
there are samurai in eberron? yeah. http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Samurai

special abilities (these are stuff i chose from http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Samurai_%283.5e_Class%29 and tweaked a bit when too powerful. my intention was to create a melee class who is strong against casters)

1. ancestral weaponry; the weapon chosen gains ghost touch property. (like kensei attack bonuses that would work only with the chosen weapon again)

2. Pledge of Loyalty: +4 bonus against mind-affecting effects. (enchancement?)

3. Kiai! (Ex): At 3rd level, a Samurai may convert a successful strike into a confirmed critical hit (...)

note: this would be a toggle button with x charges. like if you activate it and miss, charge is not used. but if you hit it's a crit for sure and charge used.

(...) He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to half his Samurai level + 2.

4. Whirlwind Attack: A Samurai gains Whirlwind as a bonus feat at 4th level.

5. Blindfighting: A Samurai gains Blind Fighting as a bonus feat at 6th level. If the Samurai already has this feat, he may choose a Combat Feat instead, but only if he meets the prerequisites of that feat.

6. Terrible Blows (Su): At 6th level, a Samurai's Ancestral Weapon bypasses Damage Reduction and ignores Hardness. (this would be too much i guess, maybe an enhacement starts with 5 bypass damage reduction or something like that)

6. Parry Magic (Su): At 8th level, a Samurai may use his Ancestral Weapon to parry magic targeted at him. When the Samurai is targeted by a spell or supernatural ability, he may take an Attack of Opportunity against the targeted effect. If he can make an attack roll against an AC equal to the spell or effect's DC with this Attack of Opportunity, the effect does not affect him. (super cool, no?)

note; (SU)per natural abilities doesn't work in antimagic field like beholders'.

7. Deny Caster Defenses (Ex): At 13th level, a Samurai attacking with his Ancestral Weapon ignores any AC bonuses on his targets that come from spells or spell-like abilities.

8. Reflect Magic (Su): At 16th level, an spell effect that would be dispelled by a successful use of the Samurai's Parry Magic ability can instead be reflected back on the caster, as per a spell turning effect.

even if not samurai, what other anti caster melee you would like to see in game?

I think these Samaurai rules were written up to be more like Jedi and less like Samaurai. It parries magic with its sword and cuts through just about anything? Sounds like a lightsaber to me. (In Chris Rock's voice...) George Lucas gonna sue somebody!

Xenus_Paradox
10-25-2010, 06:01 PM
No non-Eberron-specific classes until we get Artificers!

Aranticus
10-25-2010, 07:16 PM
Twf fighter, bastard sword and short sword

full ranks of Intimidate

brigandine armor

done

Edit: don't forget LN alignment

lawful yes but i do not think i seen anywhere stating a samurai must be neutral as well

gorgorothsixsixsix
10-26-2010, 12:35 AM
Many of the abilities that are listed are very poor for a mmo setting

trolls.

i already said this is fighter prestige class.

and this, is way better than kensei.

if kensei is not very poor, this is not too.


3.5 base classes in that it has non-scaling abilities in the class progression

did you even read? here are some stuff scaling with level;


6. Terrible Blows (Su): At 6th level, a Samurai's Ancestral Weapon bypasses Damage Reduction and ignores Hardness. (this would be too much i guess, maybe an enhacement starts with 5 bypass damage reduction or something like that)

3. Kiai! (Ex): At 3rd level, a Samurai may convert a successful strike into a confirmed critical hit (...)

note: this would be a toggle button with x charges. like if you activate it and miss, charge is not used. but if you hit it's a crit for sure and charge used.

(...) He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to half his Samurai level + 2.

besides, these are just what i picked from original samurai concept. otherwise they get vorpal property to ancestral weapon too but if i were to include that you would say too strong this time.


No non-Eberron-specific classes until we get Artificers!

read only first line? here; http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Samurai

voodoogroves
10-26-2010, 12:50 AM
did you even read? here are some stuff scaling with level;



Standard internet procedure would have me one-up your snide comment, but I'm going to assume you were caught at a weak moment.

(1) Yes I read it.

(2) Why would Turbine create something completely different than what is in the D&D IP, given that this game is ALL ABOUT THE D&D IP? Because you think Samurai are cool?

(3) If they base the class on the IP, it's weak. It's incredibly weak.

(4) Your idea, while it shows you like to be creative, does nothing for me. I get you think it's awesome; we are each entitled to our own opinions.

(5) Flavor-wise, are there Samurai (the 3.5 class) in Eberron? Sure thing. They may not look anything like you think they do and they certainly by-the-book don't function like you're describing. Thing is, basically anything in D&D can be found in Eberron - that was one of the reasons it won the setting search - it's open-ended and expansive opportunities.

(6) Flavor-wise, if you want something that looks like a samurai, there is no such equipment set in the game. I'd much rather (and this is my opinion) have them add visual flavor than a poor version (yours) of an already poor 3.5 base class (the published one).

(7) If they add more mechanical elements, I'd much rather they focus on other D&D components that haven't been covered instead of yet-another Samurai. I'd much rather have a D&D-specific thing, than a transplant. Even if you dreamed up the coolest and most balanced awesome mechanic progression for the Samurai class, I'd still rather have a Warlock, Duskblade, Beguiler, Dragonfire Adept, Crusader, Artificer or other D&D-specific base class ... or a Spellsword, Knight Phantom, Weretouched Master, Enlightened Fist, Escalation Mage, Landforged Walker, etc. D&D or Eberron flavored PRC. Revenant Blades. Nonsomatic Chirugen. I'd much rather have something that oozed Eberron or at least D&D than a transplant that is in the "also found here" section. I'd rather have a "generic" non-eberron base class than one that has specific cultural ties which have been back-fit to "can be found in Eberron".

I also don't want to convert Sailor Moon to DDO, call me crazy.


I totally read what you wrote, and disagree with the choice of the class and your interpretation.

gorgorothsixsixsix
10-26-2010, 09:46 AM
what i want is a melee class who can kill casters. can't tank many mobs but goes there, through magic, not affected, and kills the bastard. like my last sentence in the first post; even if not samurai, what other anti caster melee...

adding samurai, if they were to do what i suggested is not that hard. i'm not into something that looks like a samurai, i'm into something that cuts magic being a melee.

is kensei very weak? well, my samurai will be stronger than kensei at least. and again, it's not like i'm a dev and you have to accept my samurai as it is. even though i gave a detailed description, it's still conceptual because;

monk's flurry is not flurry, clerics has no domains, rangers can't track, the most fun ability of fighter, cleave sucks. can't sneak attack with bows, "action points" something completely else than what you see in other games eg. neverwinter nights or baldurs gate...

make 18 shortcut bars, fill it with 100 clickies, solo everything just jumping and firewalling. shows how far this is from real d&d.

everyone is a rambo. so don't tell me original d&d rules and stuff.

richieelias27
10-26-2010, 12:02 PM
Hmm... What anti-caster melee should be added to the game? I pick Monk.

Oh wait, thats already in there.

Any sort of ability that flat out bypasses all DR, even just by 1 point, is completely contrary to the way DR works.

Autocrit-on-demand is just silly overpowered. Even with charges. And especially so if charges dont get used on a miss.

There is no such thing as attack of opportunity in DDO.

Enemy casters typically do not buff themselves with +AC spells.

Blindfighting is not a feat in DDO. Even if it were, it would be worthless once you had mantle+VoM

Whirlwind is worthless as an attack in DDO.

So, what is left? Ghost touch and +4 vs mind affecting spells... wait, you have protection vs evil already? Well theres always that ghost touch sword...

Plutocracy
10-26-2010, 12:12 PM
Lots of ways to make samurai with existing stuff, like others have said.

Full fighter kensei (I'm sure many samurai certainly were) fits the flavor.

Or, fighter(kensei)/monk multiclass for the more clothed no armor version.

Really, the only thing missing is adding more great/bastard/long sword graphics with katana like curves.

t0r012
10-26-2010, 12:12 PM
So, what is left? Ghost touch and +4 vs mind affecting spells... wait, you have protection vs evil already? Well theres always that ghost touch sword...

or pally hunter of the dead I and kensai II
combine the 2 and you can squeak out almost the exact same as the proposed samurai

elujin
10-26-2010, 12:15 PM
makea a pally/monk whirling steel build and call it samurai

or a elf fvs/monk

/done

Doganpc
10-26-2010, 12:23 PM
Totally off topic as this thread should be derailed by now, but similar to the guy who thinks you confused samurai with jedi...

What you see that could be considered a whirlwind attack is actually multiple critical hits in sequence. Samurai are more of a sword out, sword kill, sword readied/stowed. It does help when sword readied leads back into sword kill, but yeah thats my point for the day.

Dogan
pretends to know what he's talking about.

AyumiAmakusa
10-26-2010, 12:25 PM
I want Mystic Theurge. :)

gorgorothsixsixsix
10-26-2010, 02:37 PM
Any sort of ability that flat out bypasses all DR, even just by 1 point, is completely contrary to the way DR works.

then they should remove metalline weapons... listen to yourself. or try to understand the game you are playing.


Autocrit-on-demand is just silly overpowered. Even with charges. And especially so if charges dont get used on a miss.

yet everyone else other than you said very weak... which shows how you people here to be against everything. you will either say overpowered or weak.


There is no such thing as attack of opportunity in DDO.
doesn't matter, instead of using saves, use attack roll. it's not a problem.

Enemy casters typically do not buff themselves with +AC spells.


Blindfighting is not a feat in DDO. Even if it were, it would be worthless once you had mantle+VoM

halforcs also was not a race in ddo once. if you read what i said, samurai II gets it. so it doesn't even have to be a feat. there are deathblock armors but that didn't stop them from adding deathward spell.


Whirlwind is worthless as an attack in DDO.
if you make it with a very short cooldown it will be nice.


So, what is left? Ghost touch and +4 vs mind affecting spells... wait, you have protection vs evil already? Well theres always that ghost touch sword...

there are all sort of items and weapons with all sorts of properties. why ranger has plus 2 to resistances? who use ranger summons other than wasting their sp? why there are keen weapons while it doesn't stack with imp.crit... just because there's something in game, it doesn't mean having it permanently will be bad, it makes for inventory space, frees slots, makes life easier.

which is exactly what i was talking about 18 shortcut bars and 177 clickies. oh wait, let me put this helmet before i kill you mister zombie. and use this greater heroism too. now die.

gorgorothsixsixsix
10-26-2010, 02:43 PM
also, monks have no flurry of attacks. the flurry of attacks they have is not flurry of attacks. so they are not monks.

and yeah, i can edit but this comment needs its special post.

Mister_Peace
10-26-2010, 02:54 PM
lawful yes but i do not think i seen anywhere stating a samurai must be neutral as well

Yeah well, you also never saw the firewalls burning down the doors. :P

Aranticus
10-26-2010, 03:05 PM
trolls.

This is infractable


i already said this is fighter prestige class.

I didn't say anything about it not being a PrE, for someone who keeps asking if people read what you wrote, you are very bad at reading yourself

Let me expand why the abilities arnt powerful


kiai

This ability is too weak. On demand crit is nice but you only have 12 of them. Since this is on toggle mode, this would be similar to a paladins smite evil, which means after 30s you are out of dps. Compared to a kensai, who's expanded crit range continuously generates crits. Add that if you use a high crit weapon, you are going to lose a lot of the toggled crits


whirlwind

it would be a nice feat if it doesn't take so much time to activate


parry magic

It won't be implemented as what you stated as fighters get huge + to attack which means a samurai will be immune to all magic. It will make boss fights a joke. It is very likely that this will be a toggled effect like a defender stance which gives you increased + to saves


deny caster defense

This is a joke in ddo. If you can't see how a fighter cannot miss anything or that mob ac is a flat increase and not mainly thru magical means, I won't be able to help


reflect spell

It work on charges. You know how many spells are casted in a high level quest?

Aranticus
10-26-2010, 03:06 PM
Yeah well, you also never saw the firewalls burning down the doors. :P

Because those doors did not have mobs behind them when firewalls were exploitable! :p

Aranticus
10-26-2010, 03:35 PM
then they should remove metalline weapons... listen to yourself. or try to understand the game you are playing.

Transmuting was removed for a reason


halforcs also was not a race in ddo once. if you read what i said, samurai II gets it. so it doesn't even have to be a feat. there are deathblock armors but that didn't stop them from adding deathward spell.

How many quests truely require blindfighting? Deathblock doesn't protect against negative energy effects


why ranger has plus 2 to resistances?

FYI, it stacks

gorgorothsixsixsix
10-26-2010, 05:22 PM
make it, so only samurai can activate whirlwind faster than the rest.

you are saying x is weak, y is too much. it's balanced then.

resistance 2 stacks? YAY! i know it stacks... but next to 30 res from ship, it's nothing, it's ridiculous. animal empathy is ridiculous, summons are ridiculous... there are many useless, ridiculous feats, spells and enhancements. snake blood, feint etc. etc. so let me add blindfighting just to make it a bit more samurai like...

toggle on, unleash all 12 kiai against 1 monster. that's weak? no dude. that's like awesome.

kensei sustainable dps. samurai is anti caster, spike dps.

also don't take everything literally. deny caster defenses; this is not real d&d. so how we can translate this to this game? think like that. maybe a simple +2 to damage rolls. and again, i'm saying "maybe".

this kind of stuff should be tested and seen if too powerful or whatever of course.

but then again, arcanes can solo everything.... so how anyone can talk about "balance" is a mystery to me to begin with.

Emili
10-26-2010, 05:49 PM
lawful yes but i do not think i seen anywhere stating a samurai must be neutral as well
... but if I "role" a samurai I'd like it to be Licitly (submissively) Naughty ... with the occasional sway of spontaneity. ;)


/kneel - My sword is yours my lord, what else shall you have of me? ;)

Aranticus
10-26-2010, 07:21 PM
make it, so only samurai can activate whirlwind faster than the rest.

you are saying x is weak, y is too much. it's balanced then.

unfortunately, you have no concept of what is balanced


resistance 2 stacks? YAY! i know it stacks... but next to 30 res from ship, it's nothing, it's ridiculous. animal empathy is ridiculous, summons are ridiculous... there are many useless, ridiculous feats, spells and enhancements. snake blood, feint etc. etc. so let me add blindfighting just to make it a bit more samurai like...

have you been in tod where there are mobs that do rediculously high no save damages? have you done epics where spell damage is consistently 3-5x more than your resists?

as to the useless stuff you mentioned, go check the history of forums. players complaining about underpowered summons, checked. players complaining about useless feats, checked. and you want to add more useless stuff


toggle on, unleash all 12 kiai against 1 monster. that's weak? no dude. that's like awesome.

yes it is weak because you cannot unleash all 12 at 1 go. there will be a cool down before you can use it. a paladin faces the same problem with smites as well but smites regen every 90s and a paladin has secondary abilities ie divine sacrifice to keep the up the dps. and if using preccedent examples, your ki strikes are likely to be tied to a boost, ie kensai power surge is tied to attack boost


kensei sustainable dps. samurai is anti caster, spike dps.

much as you claim it to be spike dps, it pales in comparison to a paladin as paladins have 2 toggle action effects namely smite and divine sacrifice


also don't take everything literally. deny caster defenses; this is not real d&d. so how we can translate this to this game? think like that. maybe a simple +2 to damage rolls. and again, i'm saying "maybe".

this kind of stuff should be tested and seen if too powerful or whatever of course.

the problem with this game is that much too often, balancing is done after it become live because the idea is not rigidly discussed before implementation


but then again, arcanes can solo everything.... so how anyone can talk about "balance" is a mystery to me to begin with.

i'm really doubting if you understand the context. no where have i compared a samurai to a caster when talking about balance. i've been using melee examples. just because others to not agree with your suggestion, you use insults? i could say something bad in response but i wont, you are not worth the points

Aranticus
10-26-2010, 07:23 PM
... but if I "role" a samurai I'd like it to be Licitly (submissively) Naughty ... with the occasional sway of spontaneity. ;)


/kneel - My sword is yours my lord, what else shall you have of me? ;)


http://files6.fliiby.com/images/_original/d33cjinwig.jpg

can you be this for me? :p

gorgorothsixsixsix
10-27-2010, 04:09 AM
yes it is weak because you cannot unleash all 12 at 1 go.

lol. we are talking about an imaginary class and you are saying there's a cooldown? no, you can't reprogram my toggles dude. it's just a toggle. if it's active and you are not deactivating, all your kiais will be used.

then, it will be spiky enough.

then, whatever you say no one gonna get those 2 resistances.

you can't give all the greatest abilities and feats to one class. blindfighting is just a flavor. the important things are kiais, ghost touch/dr bypass/parry magic.

what's the point? make all melees balanced while casters are overpowered? there's balance in game overall or not. so yeah, the samurai i pictured here can take down a boss easily if he saves all his kiais but he will suffer on the way.

Deaths_ward
10-27-2010, 04:32 AM
I actually read every post....I don't know why, but I did. Lets say the OP and anyone that agrees with him is Side A. Everyone else is Side B.

The Argument Goes....

Side A) Original, if not well thought idea, that I think could improve the game, what do you think?

Side B) Oh no way it's Weak/Over Powered/Stupid/etc. and you're dumb for saying it.

Side A) No, you're dumb, you just don't know how to recognize my genius.

Side B) Yeah, genius like a five year old.

Both Sides) NERD RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
etc.

So there's the argument in it's entirety, can we go run the shroud for the nine thousandth time, I'm missing some larges for my goggles.

Gulnar13
10-27-2010, 05:00 AM
Metalline does not *flat out* bypass every kind of DR. It bypass metal-based DR. You still have to bypass elemental-based DR. If you want to bypass both, with a single class feature, it *is* overpowered. Just look what's happening at the shintao monks.

Kiais are crit on demand. 12? Ok. I'm sure than a melee hit more times than twelve in a minute. More like... 40? 60? So the dps of the samurai would be:

First 10 second: burn throught all kiais, do a load of damage, aggro the boss.
Afterward: damage is weak, the boss turn around and aggro the party.

Also, the longer the fight, the less useful the samurai is. Since the "weakest" boss of end-game in DDO (namely ARREOSTRIKOS) requires a fairly long fight.. well, from there it just goes uphill. What woula samurai do against, say, Horot? Or maybe Elite Horot? Or, even worse, Elite Velah?
Then, Parry Magic.
If it's implemented to parry ALL incoming magic, with no charges of cooldown, it gives total immunity to magic to the samurai. This is overpowered, no matter how you look at it. If it's implemented at charges, then... it sucks, because in end-game quests bosses throw more spell than a a wizard on crack. At alst, if it's implemented to parry only non-damaging magic... then it's like SR, so not-so-useless.

And arcanes *cannot* solo everything. *Divines* can solo everything.

elujin
10-27-2010, 05:33 AM
isn't the 3de fighter pre going to be purple knight ?

gorgorothsixsixsix
10-27-2010, 02:58 PM
Metalline does not *flat out* bypass every kind of DR. It bypass metal-based DR. You still have to bypass elemental-based DR. If you want to bypass both, with a single class feature, it *is* overpowered. Just look what's happening at the shintao monks.

in my first post or second i said complete dr bypass would be too much. maybe enhancement starting with 5 dr bypass.


First 10 second: burn throught all kiais, do a load of damage, aggro the boss.
Afterward: damage is weak, the boss turn around and aggro the party.

samurais still fighters they can intimidate.


Also, the longer the fight, the less useful the samurai is. Since the "weakest" boss of end-game in DDO (namely ARREOSTRIKOS) requires a fairly long fight.. well, from there it just goes uphill. What woula samurai do against, say, Horot? Or maybe Elite Horot? Or, even worse, Elite Velah?

i don't understand you people. it's either overpowered or too weak. i didn't give you a complete samurai character sheet or something. it's a concept. i gave you my source, that dandwiki page, and i have kind of quoted some cool abilities from samurai.

like, is it weak? then add vorpal property to ancestral weapon... and/or

Cut Magic (Su): At 12th level, a Samurai may attack ongoing spell effects by attacking the square they are in for Area of Effect effects or the object or person for targeted effects (which does damage as normal to the object or person). This attack is handled like the Samurai's Parry Magic ability, but it only dispels a 10' by 10' section of an Area of Effect spell or spell-like ability.

or maybe;

Deny Armor (Su): At 18th level, a Samurai attacking with his Ancestral Weapon ignores any AC bonuses on his targets that come from armor or natural armor.

a caster stoneskin himself. (i know this is not ac but like how this would be useful when translated into current game we have) kill the bastard as if he doesn't have it. a ranger barkskin himself. (never seen one doing that, they should.) kill the bastard. etc.

don't just attack my conceptual description of sorts as if i'm a dev and you have to accept it as it is.


Then, Parry Magic.


If it's implemented to parry ALL incoming magic, with no charges of cooldown, it gives total immunity to magic to the samurai. This is overpowered, no matter how you look at it. If it's implemented at charges, then... it sucks, because in end-game quests bosses throw more spell than a a wizard on crack. At alst, if it's implemented to parry only non-damaging magic... then it's like SR, so not-so-useless.

there's a good description about this in my first post. "If he can make an attack roll against an AC equal to the spell or effect's DC with this Attack of Opportunity, the effect does not affect him."

basically he will be able to parry most magic but sometimes, randomly, just like you miss when attacking, some spells will land. higher the dc of a spell, higher the chances to penetrate parry. when a spell lands, you should say "unlucky".

Aranticus
10-27-2010, 07:40 PM
lol. we are talking about an imaginary class and you are saying there's a cooldown? no, you can't reprogram my toggles dude. it's just a toggle. if it's active and you are not deactivating, all your kiais will be used.

you keep harping on the assumption that changes can be easily made to game, you ever wondered how things really work in ddo? look at the changes so far from Mod1 to 9 then update1 to 7. the mechanics of the game is built upon existing mechanics. ie divine vitality is linked to turn undead. this, if my memory did not fail me, would be the preccedent. next, you have divine might linked to turn undead, then power surge linked to attack boost

similarly, if the devs were to implement the samurai, similar mechanics would be used for samurai abilities. you are looking at the samurai from a very microscopic view, basing it on what you have experienced in pnp. try expanding your vision and see how it could possibly be added to ddo as a PrE. step into the shoes of a developer and try think like them. this is what you lack to make the suggestion a truely good one

Aranticus
10-27-2010, 07:51 PM
in my first post or second i said complete dr bypass would be too much. maybe enhancement starting with 5 dr bypass.

as at present, DR doesnt work the way you describe


samurais still fighters they can intimidate.

then you have to ask yourself that in a boss fight, why would i want to bring a samurai rather than a stalwart if you are intimitanking?


i don't understand you people. it's either overpowered or too weak. i didn't give you a complete samurai character sheet or something. it's a concept. i gave you my source, that dandwiki page, and i have kind of quoted some cool abilities from samurai.

its not you do not understand but rather you do not understand the mechanics of ddo


like, is it weak? then add vorpal property to ancestral weapon... and/or

vorpal ability is given to rogues and is on a sneak attack only in order reduce the power. what limitations are you going to place if you want to give vorpal ability to samurai?


Cut Magic (Su): At 12th level, a Samurai may attack ongoing spell effects by attacking the square they are in for Area of Effect effects or the object or person for targeted effects (which does damage as normal to the object or person). This attack is handled like the Samurai's Parry Magic ability, but it only dispels a 10' by 10' section of an Area of Effect spell or spell-like ability.

or maybe;

Deny Armor (Su): At 18th level, a Samurai attacking with his Ancestral Weapon ignores any AC bonuses on his targets that come from armor or natural armor.

a caster stoneskin himself. (i know this is not ac but like how this would be useful when translated into current game we have) kill the bastard as if he doesn't have it. a ranger barkskin himself. (never seen one doing that, they should.) kill the bastard. etc.

don't just attack my conceptual description of sorts as if i'm a dev and you have to accept it as it is.

i want turbine to introduce a race. anything that moves near me gets 1000 points of untyped damage. don't just attack my conceptual description of sorts as if i'm a dev and you have to accept it as it is.

doesnt quite work does it?


there's a good description about this in my first post. "If he can make an attack roll against an AC equal to the spell or effect's DC with this Attack of Opportunity, the effect does not affect him."

basically he will be able to parry most magic but sometimes, randomly, just like you miss when attacking, some spells will land. higher the dc of a spell, higher the chances to penetrate parry. when a spell lands, you should say "unlucky".

you do know that attack bonuses in ddo are such that your samurai will only miss that roll if a 1 is rolled right?

richieelias27
10-27-2010, 10:56 PM
then they should remove metalline weapons... listen to yourself. or try to understand the game you are playing.
Since you decided to play the "understand the game card" I suppose I'll go ahead and reiterate what others have already said.

Metalline weapons do not pass all DR. There is such a thing as non-metal DR and flat DR. Learn the game yourself, then come back. Oh, and when you come back, bring pie.

gorgorothsixsixsix
10-28-2010, 07:29 AM
as at present, DR doesnt work the way you describe

it doesn't have to work that way. just like ranger has + to damage against his favored enemies, samurai has + damage against creatures with dr. there you go, dr bypassed.


then you have to ask yourself that in a boss fight, why would i want to bring a samurai rather than a stalwart if you are intimitanking?

because there wasn't any stalwart fighters. we asked one and he was about to leave..... so we take a samurai instead. dude! first you said he can't keep aggro, then i told you how he can easily. now you are asking why not a stalwart... don't be fixed minded.


its not you do not understand but rather you do not understand the mechanics of ddo

toggle is definitely not a problem. think it like defensive fighting toggle. it just have 12 charges and once you outta them deactivated automatically. if they can't code such an easy thing then i don't know what they can.


so, basically, you have to make your mind up. is it overpowered or weak? there's a reason why i didn't mention vorpal in my first post because that would be overpowered indeed.

actually i'm not sure how cut magic can be implemented into a real time game. hmmm... this would be in the form of an aura i guess. and this aura gives players near you an effect similar to "blurry" but only against magical effects.

then you are a better tank than stalwart against caster bosses.

hooblaboo
10-28-2010, 08:11 AM
laughing a lot because of all the nerd rage?

On a more serious note, I would rather have them add final bard PrEs, sorcerer PrEs, FvS PrEs, etc. then implement this

Arkadios
10-28-2010, 08:21 AM
Ok i think we should add Druids before we think about any other classes. Druid was an original AD&D class and i'm suprised they havn't implemented it yet.

Wren666
11-19-2010, 10:43 PM
/signed

Something like this could work out nicely, actually, nevermind the knee-jerk naysayers.

And to the ignorant idiot who tried to equate including Samurai with DDO becoming Sailor Moon: you fail. even if you were trying to be funny. :rolleyes: Yeah. See if you can notice a "monk" in the Class list the next time you reroll. LOLZ imma Ninja Spy!!!1

muffinlad
11-22-2010, 07:44 PM
Ok i think we should add Druids before we think about any other classes. Druid was an original AD&D class and i'm suprised they havn't implemented it yet.

Druids were introduced in Eldrich Wizardry, back in pre-historic times (ha). They were the first people to have Resist Fire (like a Fire Shield...kind of), and it was the ONLY thing that reduced energy damage at that point, because Resist Energy and Protection from Energy did not exist yet.

Ok, wheel me off to the old D+Ders home.

And you are right, we need to have Druids...and only one Grand Druid per Server! (ha....ok, old days too).

muffinarchdruid

Wren666
11-24-2010, 11:43 AM
And you are right, we need to have Druids...and only one Grand Druid per Server!+Supported wholeheartedly with all my Turbine Points :D

maybe one Archdruid per Guild :)

sirdanile
11-24-2010, 12:23 PM
it doesn't have to work that way. just like ranger has + to damage against his favored enemies, samurai has + damage against creatures with dr. there you go, dr bypassed.



because there wasn't any stalwart fighters. we asked one and he was about to leave..... so we take a samurai instead. dude! first you said he can't keep aggro, then i told you how he can easily. now you are asking why not a stalwart... don't be fixed minded.



toggle is definitely not a problem. think it like defensive fighting toggle. it just have 12 charges and once you outta them deactivated automatically. if they can't code such an easy thing then i don't know what they can.


so, basically, you have to make your mind up. is it overpowered or weak? there's a reason why i didn't mention vorpal in my first post because that would be overpowered indeed.

actually i'm not sure how cut magic can be implemented into a real time game. hmmm... this would be in the form of an aura i guess. and this aura gives players near you an effect similar to "blurry" but only against magical effects.

then you are a better tank than stalwart against caster bosses.

The + to damage vs enemies with dr would get too high when you use dr bypassing weaponry.

If you're talking about intimitanking, of course you're gonna be comparing to the class that does it the best.

If you want a toggle with charges you're going to find that "OOPS I used more than I wanted too" is going to happen a lot.

Addressing the individual abilities to help balance a class is vital, the class is neither overpowered or weak but rather both at the same time focusing on different things.

You do know that attack bonuses get well into the mid-high 50s right?


also, monks have no flurry of attacks. the flurry of attacks they have is not flurry of attacks. so they are not monks.

and yeah, i can edit but this comment needs its special post.

The higher base attack bonus monks get when using centered weapons does actually increase their attack speed as well as their to-hit.


I actually read every post....I don't know why, but I did. Lets say the OP and anyone that agrees with him is Side A. Everyone else is Side B.

The Argument Goes....

Side A) Original, if not well thought idea, that I think could improve the game, what do you think?

Side B) Oh no way it's Weak/Over Powered/Stupid/etc. and you're dumb for saying it.

Side A) No, you're dumb, you just don't know how to recognize my genius.

Side B) Yeah, genius like a five year old.

Both Sides) NERD RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
etc.

So there's the argument in it's entirety, can we go run the shroud for the nine thousandth time, I'm missing some larges for my goggles.

First of all, neither side is truely nerd raging. Second of all this is inflammatory.

While I may agree with part of this I don't like the way you insulted everyone for posting in a thread, constructive discussion or not, if I could neg rep I would do so to this post, but I cannot.


Ok i think we should add Druids before we think about any other classes. Druid was an original AD&D class and i'm suprised they havn't implemented it yet.

*Inserts Thread Derail*

Sigh.

Reos
12-10-2010, 06:14 PM
... but if I "role" a samurai I'd like it to be Licitly (submissively) Naughty ... with the occasional sway of spontaneity. ;)


/kneel - My sword is yours my lord, what else shall you have of me? ;)


I propose this be the new focus of the thread!

Aerendil
12-14-2010, 12:36 PM
Just add some new visuals for weapons, and you can have a Samurai.
Two-handed sword graphic similar to a no-dachi and you're sorted.
There's already longsword graphics somewhat similar to a katana, so you can do twin "katanas".
As for armour - not sure if the Guard of the Shogun from Threnal is what I picture it to be, but that could work. (anyone have a picture of it?!); or you could splash Monk and wear pajamas (aka a gi). Either way is fitting for a Samurai, it just depends which period of Japan we're talking about.

As for class of choice, obviously go Fighter-Kensai. It suits Samurai very much.
Forget the other abilities from Samurai from the various books - most of them are rubbish.

Maegin
12-14-2010, 12:41 PM
Being samurai is more of a state of mind, for starters, you don't need a PrC to reflect that. As for mechanics, we already have one. Kensai.

Hint: Kensai means sword saint.

Aerendil
12-14-2010, 12:43 PM
Hint: Kensai means sword saint.

Yep, exactly. And who's a sword saint, but one of the most famous Samurai that ever lived: Musashi.

Maegin
12-14-2010, 12:44 PM
... but if I "role" a samurai I'd like it to be Licitly (submissively) Naughty ... with the occasional sway of spontaneity. ;)


/kneel - My sword is yours my lord, what else shall you have of me? ;)


/facepalm Emili you are the best. :)

der_kluge
12-14-2010, 01:05 PM
I want Mystic Theurge. :)

Oy!!

Imagine the hotbars!!!!

Aerendil
12-15-2010, 08:40 AM
So 2 thoughts haunted me last night.

The first was that picture of that female ninja. Cheeky little minx...

The second is the concept of an 18 Fighter-Kensai / 2 Monk "samurai", with TWF longswords.
Quick question for any dps-nerds who may be reading this - would the loss of Ftr capstone (10% doublestrike) be a significant dps loss compared to either 0% (if uncentered) or 2.5% doublestrike (if WSS route)?

I realize he/she would already be gimped by going longsword over khopesh, but hey, it's a flavor build obviously.
AC seems like it could be decent, and fire stance with Jidz for +25% healing could be quite nice.

Even half-tempted for a Half-Elf with Rogue dile for the +3d6 SA dice.

Wren666
12-25-2010, 02:14 AM
Exact implementations aside, this game could use an "anti-caster" or "mage-slayer" class.

Maybe make the Samurai resistant to third-party buffs as well, while improving their saves against debuffs.

minimomo
12-27-2010, 01:56 PM
Very confusing thread but Samurai in DnD has not much to do with real samurais from japanese history so a fighter kensei doesn't cut it. If you think Samurai as real people from history, you definitely don't need any new base or prestige class. Japanese chaotic fighter = bandit. Japanese lawful good fighter = Samurai. Whatever...

DnD Samurai is something else. Much like monks. Real life monks also meditates and do "mystic" stuff but can they jump in the air, no. So, I liked the anti caster melee idea and high saves of a monk doesn't really make it an anti caster.

Reflecting magic back. Cutting through buffs. Ignoring DR. Spike damage. Yet have to use light armor. Kind of weak against brute force. Killing beholder easier than a giant. This really would be fun to play.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v719/ju5t_bl4z3/op-006.gif

wemery73
12-27-2010, 01:58 PM
/ signed :D:)



there are samurai in eberron? yeah. http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Samurai

special abilities (these are stuff i chose from http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Samurai_%283.5e_Class%29 and tweaked a bit when too powerful. my intention was to create a melee class who is strong against casters)

1. ancestral weaponry; the weapon chosen gains ghost touch property. (like kensei attack bonuses that would work only with the chosen weapon again)

2. Pledge of Loyalty: +4 bonus against mind-affecting effects. (enchancement?)

3. Kiai! (Ex): At 3rd level, a Samurai may convert a successful strike into a confirmed critical hit (...)

note: this would be a toggle button with x charges. like if you activate it and miss, charge is not used. but if you hit it's a crit for sure and charge used.

(...) He may use this ability a number of times per day equal to half his Samurai level + 2.

4. Whirlwind Attack: A Samurai gains Whirlwind as a bonus feat at 4th level.

5. Blindfighting: A Samurai gains Blind Fighting as a bonus feat at 6th level. If the Samurai already has this feat, he may choose a Combat Feat instead, but only if he meets the prerequisites of that feat.

6. Terrible Blows (Su): At 6th level, a Samurai's Ancestral Weapon bypasses Damage Reduction and ignores Hardness. (this would be too much i guess, maybe an enhacement starts with 5 bypass damage reduction or something like that)

6. Parry Magic (Su): At 8th level, a Samurai may use his Ancestral Weapon to parry magic targeted at him. When the Samurai is targeted by a spell or supernatural ability, he may take an Attack of Opportunity against the targeted effect. If he can make an attack roll against an AC equal to the spell or effect's DC with this Attack of Opportunity, the effect does not affect him. (super cool, no?)

note; (SU)per natural abilities doesn't work in antimagic field like beholders'.

7. Deny Caster Defenses (Ex): At 13th level, a Samurai attacking with his Ancestral Weapon ignores any AC bonuses on his targets that come from spells or spell-like abilities.

8. Reflect Magic (Su): At 16th level, an spell effect that would be dispelled by a successful use of the Samurai's Parry Magic ability can instead be reflected back on the caster, as per a spell turning effect.

even if not samurai, what other anti caster melee you would like to see in game?

AndyD47
12-27-2010, 02:00 PM
A twf bastard sword using fighter is basically already a samurai to my mind,wouldn't be to hard to roleplay it as such.

Vellrad
12-27-2010, 02:14 PM
Sure lets add samurais.
Then lets change all monsters and players to manga type models.
Finally lets change game title to ダンジョンズ&ドラゴンズオンライン .

/NOT SIGNED

Kominalito
12-27-2010, 02:20 PM
face it. this will never, ever, ever happen.

lets just say that you actually get samurai as a PRE. then what? recode new armors to look like asian medieval styles available? they will have to be available to everyone. then you will see that other classes will just LOOK like samaurai because they are 10x as effective as the class itself. then the only reason the PRE is in the game is motivation for devs to make new suits of armor, which is pointless...

and like the post above, making anything asian in this game will (and i guarentee) completely change the scenery. with the massive influx of free players, what armor do YOU think they would pick if they had choice? there would be a good hard percentage of players all wearing the same gear. of course the next step is to make spells have animations 3 minutes long with mind numbing, epilipsy inducing color bursts, and pigtailed toons with sailor and/or school girl outfits. and mounts that look like My Little Ponies.

/not signed.

minimomo
12-27-2010, 02:37 PM
face it. this will never, ever, ever happen.

Even if it happens, I will be long dead until then. Since when it is official that Druids are going to be implemented? Multiply that with 666 and that's when you will get any new class.


lets just say that you actually get samurai as a PRE. then what? recode new armors to look like asian medieval styles available? they will have to be available to everyone. then you will see that other classes will just LOOK like samaurai because they are 10x as effective as the class itself. then the only reason the PRE is in the game is motivation for devs to make new suits of armor, which is pointless...

There are halfling clerics with full plate. There are drow paladins in shining armor. There are barbarian bards. They first soulfully chant and put you in a trance and then they rage scattering saliva around in frenzy mode. Can you distinguish a rogue from a monk if they both using Dragon Touched armor? Can you tell if this is a ranger or twf fighter in full plate? It is not like as if all classes has their own set of armors anyway.

A full plate of defender looks same on all classes. Just like Dragon Touched or Icy Rainments or anything named. What I mean is, call it Antimagic Dude if you want so you don't have to put new armor models with it. But give him reflect magic ability, make it a real anti caster. I don't care about Samurai fashion, I just think the game lacks real anti caster.

Talltale-Storyteller
12-27-2010, 02:54 PM
So at first I read the OP, and thought it was interesting, but un-needed.

Then I thought AAxeyu's post was a little unnecessarily rude, and *almost* stuck up for the OP...

Then I read the OPs responses to voodoo and Aranticus...

At this point I decided the OP is a jerk with a bad attitude, and further reading supported this hypothesis.



As far as an anti caster melee...I saw somebody say NOT monk?

What?
Stunning fist, quivering palm, Touch of Death, kukan-Do, sneak attack, obscene saves, immumities, and abundant step?

How is that not a casters worst enemy? Discuss.


Somebody asked about WSS dps... I will only say that with only 2 levels of monk you are not getting enough use out of your ki for the feat imo.

Chazzie
12-27-2010, 03:37 PM
Samurai ??? /NO TY !!!

I kinda had a flashback to AD&D day when I seen the title,If I remember right didnt they come out with a (Orient hardback Book for AD&D) it had the Samurai,Monk,Ninja,& many other classes if I remember right collected over time when they came out with new classes through the Dragon Magz. I do remember some new guy showing up to play in our table game back in the day and had a Samurai Toon,The DM was like UMMM Nope sorry your toon I have no clue about never herd of it ,so the guy took the book out,I remember because the next day I went hunting and found the book....I was so bummed out to find 99% of the book came from past Dragon Mag toons add ons & After reading the book I didnt want to see these type of toons in game....I'll deal with the monk in DDO I like it & I think its a good fit....BUT I dont see the other past class toons fitting in this game , Sorry but nty

Edit I found a Link To all the AD&D Item~The book at the top of the list is the one I was talking about~http://www.waynesbooks.com/karatur.html

justhavinfun
12-27-2010, 04:08 PM
One of the best anti-casters I personally have played is the ranger AA. Casters tend to stay back out of melee range due to their weaker ac and hps. What best to hit them with then arrows or another caster? The ranger AA can take casters down with relative ease while the melees do what they do best. Due to the fact that the ranger can have both elemental resistance and protection, fom, not to mention a high reflex due to bieng mainly dex based he is able to withstand many spell effects. Make him a drow and you get spell resistance added. Also don't forget the ranger does get some self healing capabilities to help him out. Last but not least is the different arrow types available to the AA the best of which being the slayer arrows at level 18. In my opinion this makes this character one of the best anti-caster classes in the game.

baddax
03-09-2011, 10:49 PM
18/2 fighter monk, kensai build.

Grenada
03-23-2011, 09:25 PM
While I don't think that the samurai will ever make it into the game, it would be nice if there was some more PrE for many of the classes altogether.

Fighter: Samurai, or other anti-caster design
Ranger: The Scout (Complete Adventurer, AD&D V 3.5)
Rogue or Bard: Spell thief (Also complete adventurer)
Pally: Greyguard (I think its in complete scoundrel, but it may be in complete adventurer too)
Wizzy: already lots of options here, though a Eldritch knight may be a nice addition (DM guide V 3.5)
Sorc: we'll see about U9 PrE
FvD soul: in the works

VorpalQuill
04-21-2012, 12:04 AM
But DDO as a platform is not suited to the concept of Asian characteristics for toons, battle, and an Asian flavored 'world' with similar modules. It is heavily skewed toward concepts finding only a western audience.

Dieterstrife
04-21-2012, 03:14 AM
I have the solution to making a Samurai

It's just like the idea of the Thief Acrobat

Martial Weapon Proficiency: Bastard Sword. This effect also makes it a Ki weapon.

Just give that prestige to monks. No bastard sword in the game is going to out dps a monk when it's wielding only one of them. Make it a bonus thing (like shortswords for ninja spy) for the lvl 6 prestige for henshin mystic, and boom. Instant Samurai.

Just increase the attack speed with it. 10% like the fists, since its smaller than the greatsword.

(please dear god let them implement this. I want to do this so bad.)

And no, I havent read through all the posts before I made this one.

Ah hell I just necro'd this....ffuuuuuuuuuuuu

karnokvolrath
04-21-2012, 03:18 AM
I personally have no desire for that class or even that PRE to be added to the game.

Id rather see others Pre's finished.

Id rather see other races/classes implemented.

/not signed.

Vellrad
04-21-2012, 04:21 AM
Is it necro yet, or maybe an archeologism/