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View Full Version : Serious Archmage questions - devs?



Thrudh
10-21-2010, 08:38 PM
(1)Why does Archmage III require a Greater Spell Focus feat, when it gives you access to the Secondary Spell Mastery enhancement (which requires a SECOND normal Spell Focus feat). Archmage IV gives you access to the Spell Mastery II enhancement, so I believe that is where the Greater Spell Focus Feat requirement should be... If someone wants to dabble in both necromancy and enchantment, he/she is forced to get a Greater Spell Focus in one of them first...

(2) Does Maximize and Empower work on Arcane Bolt? (and Arcane Blast?)... The bolt spell was doing around 80-110 points of non-crit damage per shot (Level 15 wizard)... 15d6 (assuming 1d3+3 = 4.5 average) = 70 or so... Looks like Empower is working, but not Maximize? The weirdest part was I got the same damage numbers with the metas off as I did with them on... Yes, it's very very nice that the spell only costs 1 point, but 100 points of damage is only enough to **** a bad guy off... (I did have some luck using my 1 point Hypnotize spell, then kiting around each monster one-by-one using the Arcane Bolt, but boy that's slow - might as well just use firewall). It WILL be useful to finish guys off when your fireball leaves them with a sliver... so it will still be nice to have, but I sure wish Maximize worked on it.

(3) This PrE is HUGELY feat hungry... One of the nice things about being a wizard is all the extra feats.... This PrE requires so many that you lose the flexibility of being a wizard... Please think about removing Mental Toughness... That's a feat an Archmage doesn't need, what with all the extra SP you get anyway from the PrE.

FlyingTurtle
10-21-2010, 08:51 PM
2. none of the metas are working, you're seeing the effect of the loaded damage dice (uniform distribution on the upper half of the range), yes, it's exactly like getting a free stackable empower on everything.

3. Just pick the schools you're already getting the feats for, problem solved.

MrCow
10-21-2010, 09:03 PM
(2) Does Maximize and Empower work on Arcane Bolt? (and Arcane Blast?)... The bolt spell was doing around 80-110 points of non-crit damage per shot (Level 15 wizard)... 15d6 (assuming 1d3+3 = 4.5 average) = 70 or so... Looks like Empower is working, but not Maximize? The weirdest part was I got the same damage numbers with the metas off as I did with them on... Yes, it's very very nice that the spell only costs 1 point, but 100 points of damage is only enough to **** a bad guy off... (I did have some luck using my 1 point Hypnotize spell, then kiting around each monster one-by-one using the Arcane Bolt, but boy that's slow - might as well just use firewall). It WILL be useful to finish guys off when your fireball leaves them with a sliver... so it will still be nice to have, but I sure wish Maximize worked on it.

Metamagics don't work on Arcane Bolt, Arcane Blast, Necrotic Touch, Necrotic Bolt, or Necrotic Blast. They can be improved via enhancements and item effects that are relevant to their damage type (such as Force Manipulation and Impulse/Potency for Arcane Bolt/Blast, as well as Lineage of Force/Kinetic Lore/Arcane Lore/etc. for getting it to critically hit).

Thrudh
10-21-2010, 09:06 PM
2. none of the metas are working, you're seeing the effect of the loaded damage dice (uniform distribution on the upper half of the range), yes, it's exactly like getting a free stackable empower on everything.

Are they going to make the metas work?


3. Just pick the schools you're already getting the feats for, problem solved.

It's 4 feats to fully qualify for this PrE... That's huge...

Yes, most wizards are going to take a couple of Spell Focus feats, but we're taking 3 of them, AND mental toughness is very expensive...

Most wizards are going to take
Maximize
Empower
Extend
Heighten
Spell Pen
Greater Spell Pen

That's six feats

To fully qualify for this PrE costs 4 more (You can get away with only 3 more)

That's 9 or 10 feats...

If you have a past life, and you want toughness, you're pretty much out of feats... So much for the verstility of having situational feats like Enlarge or Quicken...

I'll play with a bit more, but I think the Mental Toughness feat is overkill...

frznvimes
10-21-2010, 09:17 PM
(1)Why does Archmage III require a Greater Spell Focus feat, when it gives you access to the Secondary Spell Mastery enhancement (which requires a SECOND normal Spell Focus feat). Archmage IV gives you access to the Spell Mastery II enhancement, so I believe that is where the Greater Spell Focus Feat requirement should be... If someone wants to dabble in both necromancy and enchantment, he/she is forced to get a Greater Spell Focus in one of them first...
because tier 3 SLAs require GSF and tier 4s require mastery II, and the other way around would only let you get up to tier 2 in your secondary school. You could always pick up gsf in your secondary school before your primary school (so say you want enchantment as your primary for epic later on, but want evocation's chain missile for leveling up).
I'm not saying that this is in any way a good strategy, but making a guess at the dev's thinking.


Are they going to make the metas work?
they've given no indication that they plan to, as far as I know.

MrCow
10-21-2010, 09:18 PM
Are they going to make the metas work?

They revoked metamagic use from Necrotic Touch which is in the ballpark of Arcane Bolt/Blast, so my prediction is that it is unlikely.

Orratti
10-21-2010, 09:34 PM
An Archmage is a specialist in a school of magic. The nature of specialization is that you aren't going to be as strong in other fields. Yeah I'm having to do a couple of feat exchanges to get mine done the way I want it. I didn't bother trying to pick up the free spell enhancements as they lowered my overall spell points and in order to get to anything useful I'd have to also take the useless and lose spell points doing so. All in all though I intended to be a specialist with my build anyway and now I have an extra 400 sps to work with and more coming.

Thrudh
10-21-2010, 09:41 PM
An Archmage is a specialist in a school of magic. The nature of specialization is that you aren't going to be as strong in other fields.

Yeah, I can see that...

I still think it's silly that you can't just get a Spell Focus in two fields... Instead, you HAVE to get a greater spell focus in one field, before you can dabble in a second field.

Majere_Aumar
10-21-2010, 09:47 PM
If you have a past life, and you want toughness

Not to mention that after taking an entire line of a damage type + a few of force (for WF), a bit of spell pen + AM4, you can only afford to take racial toughness 1 or 2.

You have to make some serious sacrifices to take this, but I think the benefits are well worth it....especially on Evocation and especially with past lives to back it up. If they introduce extra costs for meta's, then this would not be worth taking.

AM is for super-specialising, not for people who want the best of all worlds.

As a WF self healer, I think AM necro is better than Palemaster, even after they added a toggle to lich shroud. Dirt cheap Enervation...its like adding an extra +1 to +4 dc to every FOD.

I'm waiting for someone to release a character planner with these enhancements...

Dying to find out how to build an Evoker AM with 2 damage lines to the exclusion of everything else. With a sorc and wiz past life....it would have the following damage spells for free (essentially)

1sp arcane bolt (gimped damage)
5sp arcane blast (gimped damage)
free 10 x Past Life Magic Missiles x10
free 10 x Past Life Ray of Elements
1sp Magic Missiles x 5
6sp Chain Missiles x 10
15sp Cyclonic Blast

All that damage potential without using real spells and SP.

Orratti
10-21-2010, 09:52 PM
I had a focus in a second field that I decided to just drop. I was already built focused for enchantment spells. If you were specializing in firewalls though I could see some serious problems getting all of the feats you would want in there. Most of my focus was on spell point feats, enchantment focus, and spell penetrations. Exchanged a toughness feat for greater enchantment focus tonight, have to exchange maximize for toughness in a few days and then exchange transmutation focus for maximize in a few more but in the end it should be worth it to me.

DrNuegebauer
10-22-2010, 12:24 AM
Not to mention that after taking an entire line of a damage type + a few of force (for WF), a bit of spell pen + AM4, you can only afford to take racial toughness 1 or 2.

You have to make some serious sacrifices to take this, but I think the benefits are well worth it....especially on Evocation and especially with past lives to back it up. If they introduce extra costs for meta's, then this would not be worth taking.

AM is for super-specialising, not for people who want the best of all worlds.

As a WF self healer, I think AM necro is better than Palemaster, even after they added a toggle to lich shroud. Dirt cheap Enervation...its like adding an extra +1 to +4 dc to every FOD.

I'm waiting for someone to release a character planner with these enhancements...

Dying to find out how to build an Evoker AM with 2 damage lines to the exclusion of everything else. With a sorc and wiz past life....it would have the following damage spells for free (essentially)

1sp arcane bolt (gimped damage)
5sp arcane blast (gimped damage)
free 10 x Past Life Magic Missiles x10
free 10 x Past Life Ray of Elements
1sp Magic Missiles x 5
6sp Chain Missiles x 10
15sp Cyclonic Blast

All that damage potential without using real spells and SP.

That's one take on the Archmage! (and a nice one)

The other way is to take your standard Necro/ Enchant wizard, and use the Archmage lines to boost his SP and DCs. No compulsion to take the spells (perhaps a heightened hypno could be fun?) but getting a few hundred extra SP and +2 to DCs in a school isn't a terrible result for under 10 enhancement points.

Jaid314
10-22-2010, 12:31 AM
i would be inclined to just lose the top tier of an elemental line, personally, should free up a lot of AP for playing around. honestly, i'm not convinced i desperately need my firewalls to be the absolute pinnacle of firewallyness. if that's the goal, well, aim for sorc i'd say.

frznvimes
10-22-2010, 12:52 AM
i would be inclined to just lose the top tier of an elemental line, personally, should free up a lot of AP for playing around. honestly, i'm not convinced i desperately need my firewalls to be the absolute pinnacle of firewallyness. if that's the goal, well, aim for sorc i'd say.
:(

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9616/fierywall.jpg

Doxmaster
10-22-2010, 01:00 AM
1sp arcane bolt (gimped damage)
5sp arcane blast (gimped damage)
free 10 x Past Life Magic Missiles x10
free 10 x Past Life Ray of Elements
1sp Magic Missiles x 5
6sp Chain Missiles x 10
15sp Cyclonic Blast

All that damage potential without using real spells and SP.

The Archmage magic missile will cost sp, as you said. So will the other archmage spells. It wont cost much sp; I believe that was your intent, but just in case...

Vellrad
10-22-2010, 01:08 AM
:(

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/9616/fierywall.jpg

Lol

(+1)

Requiro
10-22-2010, 07:38 AM
That's one take on the Archmage! (and a nice one)

The other way is to take your standard Necro/ Enchant wizard, and use the Archmage lines to boost his SP and DCs. No compulsion to take the spells (perhaps a heightened hypno could be fun?) but getting a few hundred extra SP and +2 to DCs in a school isn't a terrible result for under 10 enhancement points.

What for if PM can get the same and some more? :)

My post http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3354570&postcount=37 in this threat discusion: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=281104

Majere_Aumar
10-22-2010, 08:18 AM
The Archmage magic missile will cost sp, as you said. So will the other archmage spells. It wont cost much sp; I believe that was your intent, but just in case...

I just did the maths on the total damage output. Assuming no crits occur and not accounting for any DR/resists ... a geared sorc with 3,500sp chaining between polar ray and ice lance would put out about 26,000hp damage (assuming all the creature's saves fail).

A TR'ed sorc/wiz/wiz with just 2000sp just using magic missile, chain missile, ray of elements, past life missiles and cyclonic blast would put out 81,000hp worth of damage assuming failed saves. Around 50,000 assuming 50% successful saves.

Could be wrong..

FlyingTurtle
10-22-2010, 08:27 AM
I just did the maths on the total damage output. Assuming no crits occur and not accounting for any DR/resists ... a geared sorc with 3,500sp chaining between polar ray and ice lance would put out about 26,000hp damage (assuming all the creature's saves fail).

A TR'ed sorc/wiz/wiz with just 2000sp just using magic missile, chain missile, ray of elements, past life missiles and cyclonic blast would put out 81,000hp worth of damage assuming failed saves. Around 50,000 assuming 50% successful saves.


Over what amount of time though?

My level 1 idiot fighter can put out infinity damage over an infinite amount of time with no sp.

Majere_Aumar
10-22-2010, 09:20 AM
Not much slower than the sorc. You'd chain 4 different spells (all on 6 sec cooldown) and would also have them all on quicken.

In a long fight you'd go out hard with real spells then settle into using these once you're down to 1/3 SP.

Requiro
10-22-2010, 09:44 AM
Not much slower than the sorc. You'd chain 4 different spells (all on 6 sec cooldown) and would also have them all on quicken.

In a long fight you'd go out hard with real spells then settle into using these once you're down to 1/3 SP.

You don't get ironic, aren't you ?