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View Full Version : Zen Archery and Imp Precise Shot



krud
10-21-2010, 12:47 PM
with Zen Archery making your ranged to-hit based off your wisdom modifier, wouldn't it also make sense that if you have taken the feat you could then use your wisdom score as a prereq for improved precise shot?

unbongwah
10-22-2010, 10:54 AM
While I certainly have no objections to this idea, how far should Turbine take it? Should ZA let you use WIS to qualify for all of the archery feats? Should Brutal Throw let you use STR instead? Should Finesse let you take Power Attack even w/STR < 13? I'd love it if they did all of the above, but that might break game balance somethin' serious. OTOH, maybe it means ranged combat will finally be a viable option (or at least a good backup) for something other than Arcane Archers.

sephiroth1084
10-22-2010, 11:07 AM
The slope isn't that slippery.

Zen Archery is an awful feat, since all of the other worthwhile archery feats require quite a bit of Dex, and because, in most cases, Dex does as much or more a character than Wis. Allowing it to at the very least replace the Dex requirements for archery feats with Wis would make the feat at least a reasonable choice.

krud
10-22-2010, 04:34 PM
While I certainly have no objections to this idea, how far should Turbine take it? Should ZA let you use WIS to qualify for all of the archery feats? Should Brutal Throw let you use STR instead? Should Finesse let you take Power Attack even w/STR < 13? I'd love it if they did all of the above, but that might break game balance somethin' serious. OTOH, maybe it means ranged combat will finally be a viable option (or at least a good backup) for something other than Arcane Archers.
Simply having an association is not enough to claim one should swap a prereq for another. Give some logical reasons behind why any of those others should be that way, and maybe we can argue. here's my reasoning:

- Zen Archery: you are now substituting wisdom as your main controlling factor with bow accuracy (i.e. to-hit). Your dex is now unrelated to your bow control. The name of the feat, Improved Precise Shot, indicates improved accuracy and control, which by the very nature of Zen Archery, is now determined by your wisdom. The only two other ranged feats that require dex are rapid shot and shot on the run (dex 13), both of which indicate movement and quickness, which are still dex related attributes, not wisdom related.

- finesse and PA: Finesse is related to swiftness and accuracy (hence the dex prereq). It doesn't relate to power or strength. Yes, you can be both, but they are mutually exclusive, which is why the two prereqs should remain different.

- Brutal throw is tricky as i can't even begin to see any logic in the feat to begin with. I don't care how nice the feat may be to some, it just seems illogical. Though I don't think it'll do anything to overpower the multitude of thrower builds if it were allowed as a prereq. edit - I can't really see how strength can ever be a substitute for control and accuracy, but if they have determined that it can, then I guess you could say that it would allow you to throw a weapon so hard that it can penetrate multiple mobs that are all lined up in a row. From that standpoint maybe it should be allowed.

windchant
10-22-2010, 04:50 PM
from what i have seen zen archery is design for ranger in DDO.. because they were the only one who could get most of the range feat while having no dex at all.. i think in normal dnd ranger style feat should not function when you are in heavy/mid armor.. but thats not the case in ddo..

sephiroth1084
10-22-2010, 05:19 PM
from what i have seen zen archery is design for ranger in DDO.. because they were the only one who could get most of the range feat while having no dex at all.. i think in normal dnd ranger style feat should not function when you are in heavy/mid armor.. but thats not the case in ddo..
That may be, but it makes pretty poor sense on a ranger, since Dex improves your Reflex saves, which are tied to Evasion, so dumping Dex entirely robs you of a class feature and survivability.

unbongwah
10-26-2010, 02:23 PM
Give some logical reasons behind why any of those others should be that way, and maybe we can argue.
Shoot, I wasn't gonna bother bringing logic to the table - I was just thinking in terms of game balance. DDO is, ah say, it's a numbers' game, son - numbers, that is. Where's the logic in DDO?

Homestarfan
10-26-2010, 02:49 PM
@unbongwah: It's true.

@OP:Why are you even taking Zen Archery. If you're a ranger, why don't you have a starting dex of 16 with copious amounts of buffs on it? In fact, the only class that should have a higher wisdom then dex is a cleric (since it boosts AC and since reflex saves are more common than dirt). And only Clerics of the Silver Flame have proficiency in bows anyway!

Therefore, just make a dex build.

krud
10-30-2010, 11:50 AM
@unbongwah: It's true.

@OP:Why are you even taking Zen Archery. If you're a ranger, why don't you have a starting dex of 16 with copious amounts of buffs on it? In fact, the only class that should have a higher wisdom then dex is a cleric (since it boosts AC and since reflex saves are more common than dirt). And only Clerics of the Silver Flame have proficiency in bows anyway!

Therefore, just make a dex build.
I don't have any ranged toons (yet), but I, as well as quite a few others, have posted various attempts at divine-AA builds, the very builds, along with monks, that are supposed to benefit from this feat. You have just pointed out the shortfall with the zen archery feat, it really doesn't benefit those trying to use it. In order to make a decent non-ranger AA or ranged toon, you still need the dex for IPS. If you are going to go thru the trouble of getting enough dex, there's no need to ever take zen archery. This change would alleviate that problem, in a completely logical manner, and make these divine-AAs actually work.

jkm
10-30-2010, 01:25 PM
when it first came out, i suggested that they make the ranged feats have a OR clause with wisdom + 2.

Dex 17
OR
Zen Archery and Wis 19

sirdanile
10-30-2010, 01:36 PM
when it first came out, i suggested that they make the ranged feats have a OR clause with wisdom + 2.

Dex 17
OR
Zen Archery and Wis 19

I like this suggestion! :)

voodoogroves
10-30-2010, 01:47 PM
The TWF and Ranged feats are not exactly the same as they are in PNP, and that includes the increase of attribute required AND the requirement that be with the "native" score and not modified by items etc. In DDO you can only use the base, level adds, tomes, etc. ... and for many feats the required value is higher.

I'm pretty sure it is because it is/was too difficult to program dropping things if you no longer met the qualifications (though they uncenter monks and handle those stances just fine).

Then again, Manyshot is more useful in DDO than in PNP so maybe it needs a higher stat requirement.