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Zachski
10-17-2010, 12:42 AM
Dragon Disciple I
Level: 6
Cost: 2 AP
Requires: Concentration II, Energy of the Dragon Blooded II, Power Attack
You have begun your journey as a disciple of the dragons. Your physical appearance changes, adding claws and an invisible layer of scales. Your unarmed attacks are now considered lethal and deal 1d6 / 19-20 / 2x slashing damage. (Attack speed also increases and TWF now applies. Handwraps are now a recommended weapon type and will count as a class weapon for Sorcerers.). You gain a +5 natural bonus to AC. You also have a 5% chance to deal an additional 1d8 piercing damage, accompanied by a biting animation.

Disciple of the <Elemental> Dragon I/II/III
Level: 6
Cost: 2 AP/1 AP
Requires: Dragon Disciple I/II/III
You are the disciple of an <Elemental> dragon. This grants you +3/+4/+5 total resistance bonus to <Element>, and a -3/-4/-5 resistance penalty to <Other Element>. You are also granted a <elemental> breath weapon.

<Elemental> Breath Weapon I/II/III
Granted by: Disciple of the <Elemental> Dragon I/II/III
Use Cost: None
Cooldown: 30 seconds
Deals 2d8/4d8/6d8 <elemental> damage. Affected by meta-magics, which increase the cooldown rather than cost more SP.


Dragon Disciple II
Level: 12
Cost: 1 AP
You have further advanced in your training. Your scales are visible now, and you have a +10 natural AC bonus.. Your unarmed attack now deals 2d6, and your bonus attack deals 2d8 damage 10% of the time. Furthermore, you gain half your Charisma bonus to your to-hit. You also gain a +2 draconic bonus to strength.

Dragon Disciple III
Level: 18
Cost: 1 AP
You have completed your training. Your are now completely covered in scales, resulting in a +15 natural AC Bonus, and your claws and teeth have achieved maximum sharpness, dealing 3d6 and 3d8 damage at 15%, respectively. You gain wings and your falling speed is now 50% of what it should be, though this is a feather fall effect and not a gravity change effect. You now count as both a dragon and your race for all magical effects. You also gain +10 to spot checks, a total +4 draconic bonus to strength, and a +2 draconic bonus to charisma.

Note: AC had to be inflated because otherwise, it was literally nothing more than flavor. This way, it's... vaguely relevant. Vaguely. Damage also had to be inflated because otherwise, as a "melee mage" option, it would've been pitifully underpowered.

ragwa1
10-17-2010, 12:54 AM
Well this sounds wicked, can it be implemented into an mmo (the scales/claws/animations)?

Drakos
10-17-2010, 01:03 AM
I find this PrE to be way overpowered.

Zachski
10-17-2010, 01:10 AM
I find this PrE to be way overpowered.

Then offer constructive criticism on how to make it less overpowered while at the same time keeping it relevant.

It's one of the reasons to post this to the suggestion forums, after all.

Jendrak
10-17-2010, 01:30 AM
Dragon Disciple I
Level: 6
Cost:4 AP
Requires: Concentration II, Energy of the Dragon Blooded II, Power Attack
You have begun your journey as a disciple of the dragons. Your physical appearance changes, adding claws and an invisible layer of scales. Your unarmed attacks are now considered lethal and deal 1d6 / 19-20 / 2x slashing damage. (Attack speed also increases and TWF now applies. Handwraps are now a recommended weapon type and will count as a class weapon for Sorcerers.). You gain a +3 natural bonus to AC. You also have a 5% chance to deal an additional 1d8 piercing damage. You are also granted a <elemental> breath weapon.

<Elemental> Breath Weapon I/II/III
Granted by: Disciple of the <Elemental> Dragon I/II/III
Use Cost: None
Cooldown: 1 minute
Deals 2d8/4d8/6d8 <elemental> damage. Affected by meta-magics

Dragon Disciple II
Level: 12
Cost: 2 AP
You have further advanced in your training. Your scales are visible now, and you have a +5 natural AC bonus.. Your unarmed attack now deals 2d4, and your bonus attack deals 1d10 damage 10% of the time. Furthermore, you gain half your Charisma bonus to your to-hit. You also gain a +2 draconic bonus to strength.

Dragon Disciple III
Level: 18
Cost: 2 AP
You have completed your training. Your are now completely covered in scales, resulting in a +7 natural AC Bonus, and your claws and teeth have achieved maximum sharpness, dealing 2d6 and 2d8 damage at 15%, respectively. You gain wings and now fall as if under a permanent feather fall effect. You can not fly. You now count as both a dragon and your race for all magical effects. You also gain +10 to spot checks and a +2 draconic bonus to charisma.

Note: AC had to be inflated because otherwise, it was literally nothing more than flavor. This way, it's... vaguely relevant. Vaguely. Damage also had to be inflated because otherwise, as a "melee mage" option, it would've been pitifully underpowered.

The origional AC,dmg, and stat boost were a little to much. Made a few changes (in red) to try and bring it in just a littel bit without nutering the idea. However, the +2 to both stats still seems like too much and was considering dropping the Cha altogether since this seems like a melee caster Pre.

HarveyMilk
10-17-2010, 01:39 AM
Giving sorceror's vastly improved melee power (without it being some prestige idea like eldritch knight) wouldn't fall in to any 'traditional' sorceror prestige scheme. Maybe you could take your base idea (some decent unarmed option abilities) and weave them into Acolyte of the Skin (a real sorc pre). But you may have to dump your dragon motif.

I like the basic idea though, opens up thoughts of monk/sorc multis. I think you'd want to base more of the dmg off of a charisma modifier though, rather than just giving everything d6 and 3d8 (gasp) dmg. That starts making people consider a high str sorc option, or sorc/monk option, and I don't think you should encourage that with a sorc prestige enhancement.

But a decent sorc/monk (maybe with 13/7, 16/4 viability, along with the tried and true 18/2) would be neat.

Also, your AP costs are wayy too low. Taking this Pre should make sorcs have to make tough decisions, like a weaker firewall. Or else, as previously stated, too OP
Maybe even something like

Zachski
10-17-2010, 01:41 AM
A 10th level Dragon Disciple in PnP counts as a half-dragon, and gains a +4 bonus to strength and a +2 bonus to Charisma.

I think keeping the +4 bonus in would be fine, since Sorcerer gets no enhancements towards Strength like Fighter does. Moreso if you're going to reduce the damage to 2d6/2d8.

Also, you basically just summarized what I was saying about the dragon wings in that they give a feather fall effect, not flight.

Also, the Dragon Disciple needs to choose an element. They can only have one. Hence the reason for splitting the PrE up into two different enhancements that have the same combined cost as other PrEs.

EDIT: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm

I based everything off of this. Some things had to be changed to balance it with the current gameplay.

Looking at it again, I can see that Dragon Disciple should actually add HP in addition to everything, to reflect the fact that in PnP, it has a d12 hit die.

Zachski
10-17-2010, 01:50 AM
Giving sorceror's vastly improved melee power (without it being some prestige idea like eldritch knight) wouldn't fall in to any 'traditional' sorceror prestige scheme. Maybe you could take your base idea (some decent unarmed option abilities) and weave them into Acolyte of the Skin (a real sorc pre). But you may have to dump your dragon motif.

Dragon Disciple is a real Prestige Class that only Sorcerers and Bards can take. It requires that you be able to cast arcane spells without preparing them.

So, it counts as a "real" sorcerer prestige, and it'd be an insult to the Prestige Class to include it as a part of Acolyte of the Skin.

Phaye
10-17-2010, 02:09 AM
EDIT: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm

I based everything off of this. Some things had to be changed to balance it with the current gameplay.

The D20srd always have been a super inflated one. The first "official" WotC version was 3.0 rules:
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/sergebena/Nouvelleimage2.jpg

As you can see, max is Dice 10... Also, except for some additional spell slots (understand more spell points), you do not gain new spell levels.

This PrE was severly nerfed (almost as good as removed) in the 3.5 D&D rules for many reasons I won't detail since you can discuss all this with more than 124 pages in the D&D forum.

Considering the way sorceror are in DDO, I don't think this prestige class will be really appropriate (but that's only my opinion).

(Edited for clarifications)

Memnir
10-17-2010, 02:16 AM
The only thing that I can say about this idea is that I simply cannot imagine a scenario where I want my Sorc to be using handwraps, need a natural AC bonus, rely on a gimmicky feeling breath-weapon, or not have a feather fall item handy. If I want to play a Monk, I'd roll a Monk. The Str bonus to carry random chest-loot would be the only thing I'd find even halfway useful, and that does not justify taking a PrE.

If and when the Devs get around to putting in Sorc PrEs... I'd want them to be useful. But, man, this sounds worse and of less practical worth then Deepwood Sniper.

ToKu
10-17-2010, 02:24 AM
The only thing that I can say about this idea is that I simply cannot imagine a scenario where I want my Sorc to be using handwraps, need a natural AC bonus, rely on a gimmicky feeling breath-weapon, or not have a feather fall item handy. If I want to play a Monk, I'd roll a Monk. The Str bonus to carry random chest-loot would be the only thing I'd find even halfway useful, and that does not justify taking a PrE.

If and when the Devs get around to putting in Sorc PrEs... I'd want them to be useful. But, man, this sounds worse and of less practical worth then Deepwood Sniper.

Have you seen wiz pre's? Pray for something you will take for a reason other then "to play around with."

;)

I thought rolling Sorc was just another Wiz PRE btw!

Jaid314
10-17-2010, 02:25 AM
i would be inclined to make them more dragon-like in other ways. the natural armor bonus doesn't seem like it would be terribly useful, sadly, and neither does DR unless it goes higher than stoneskin.

i do think offering increased resistance to an element based on the color of dragon would be nice, as well as possibly dragon immunities like paralysis iirc. i don't think you should still count as your regular race, it should change your type just like becoming a level 20 monk.

the breath weapon could possibly use a recharge mechanic similar to smites?

i'm trying to think what else the dragon disciple had to offer, and tbh i can't really come up with much. it gave bonus spells known, but it cost you caster levels... truthfully, it seemed like a kinda lousy tradeoff to me, but i guess it would be useful for melee casters. maybe if you let them use their breath weapon while under the effect of tenser's?

(it's a bit of a shame the class couldn't reasonably be allowed to fly without breaking the game so badly, because that's really about the coolest thing i could see the class really gaining).

i dunno, the AC thing just doesn't seem like it would work in DDO. it might take you closer to having a meaningful AC, but it just isn't likely to ever actually get you there imo.

but anyways, what i would say:

finally, the TWF line would be an absolute bear to fit in. you'd need 17 dex to pull that off... i'm not convinced you can just do a direct translation and expect the class to work in DDO, i think you need to change things up way more than that. to represent the trade-in of casting ability for melee ability, i think it might be interesting to offer something like the archmage line... the sorc buys the prestige class, then has the option of choosing certain abilities at the cost of SP. nobody seems to be throwing a fit over arcane blast or necrotic blast, so giving something like that (in different elemental flavors, of which you may only choose one) might work. others that let you get abilities similar to TWF, but which could turn your melee abilities away from being considered TWF (to prevent those from stacking). that sort of thing.

i do think it has a lot of potential, but i also think this would be a lot of work to code. i really do wish they wouldn't consider the elemental savant to be 4 prestige classes, though, and have this be the third sorcerer prestige class. (but then again, perhaps they'll actually make all 4 elemental savant prestiges distinct... the biggest reason it annoys me is that i'm expecting a more-or-less cookie cutter set of prestige enhancements which they will pretend is actually not just the same thing with a find-replace operation being done).

edit: to clarify, the bonus spells in dragon disciple are bonus spells know. spellcasting progression is entirely halted.

Zachski
10-17-2010, 02:26 AM
The only thing that I can say about this idea is that I simply cannot imagine a scenario where I want my Sorc to be using handwraps, need a natural AC bonus, rely on a gimmicky feeling breath-weapon, or not have a feather fall item handy. If I want to play a Monk, I'd roll a Monk. The Str bonus to carry random chest-loot would be the only thing I'd find even halfway useful, and that does not justify taking a PrE.

If and when the Devs get around to putting in Sorc PrEs... I'd want them to be useful. But, man, this sounds worse and of less practical worth then Deepwood Sniper.

Basically, I want to see either dragon disciple as a PrE (with graphics) or have Dragonborn as a race.

Both would be nice, though.

Kinda odd how this went from "This is way too overpowered" to "This is way too underpowered"

Dragonhyde
10-17-2010, 02:28 AM
Dragon Disciple is a real Prestige Class that only Sorcerers and Bards can take. It requires that you be able to cast arcane spells without preparing them.

So, it counts as a "real" sorcerer prestige, and it'd be an insult to the Prestige Class to include it as a part of Acolyte of the Skin.

Then why limit it to Sorc only? I am sure there would be a few battle-bard builds that could incorporate it as well.

Jaid314
10-17-2010, 02:31 AM
Then why limit it to Sorc only? I am sure there would be a few battle-bard builds that could incorporate it as well.

well, imo bards are getting 3 prestige classes whereas sorc is getting 1 and 4/4, which should equal 2 except turbine decided to pretend like elemental savant is 4 different classes.

Memnir
10-17-2010, 02:32 AM
Have you seen wiz pre's? Pray for something you will take for a reason other then "to play around with."

;)The dramaticly lackluster PrEs are one reason why I don't think I'll ever be rolling another Wizard in DDO.
Basically, I want to see either dragon disciple as a PrE (with graphics) or have Dragonborn as a race.

Both would be nice, though.

Kinda odd how this went from "This is way too overpowered" to "This is way too underpowered"I never said underpowered - I said (or at least strongly implied) useless. And besides your desire to have a bipedal draconic race - there is no real point to this PrE suggestion. It simply does nothing for the Sorcerer class, and just makes them into a Monk Lite™.

ToKu
10-17-2010, 02:38 AM
The dramaticly lackluster PrEs are one reason why I don't think I'll ever be rolling another Wizard in DDO.

I think some people take the min/max a bit too far which kills what would be fun builds.

I think the biggest disapointment from the archmage PRE is that most people I talk to who are considering taking it are only going to splash into it, taking 1-2 of the SLA's tops and just riding the mana/+DC's. Playstyle wont dramatically change because of it, you will prob just see alot more wizzy's who are even better at CC's.

Drakos
10-17-2010, 02:51 AM
The origional AC,dmg, and stat boost were a little to much. Made a few changes (in red) to try and bring it in just a littel bit without nutering the idea. However, the +2 to both stats still seems like too much and was considering dropping the Cha altogether since this seems like a melee caster Pre.
To be fair the source grants a total or +8 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha, +4 Natural Armor, Claws & Bite attack, Breath Weapon, Energy Immunity, Sleep Immunity, Paralysis Immunity, Additional Spell Slots, and Flight.

Primarily I think the OP hat the Nat AC bounses tow high and the mechanic for the Bit attack fealt wrong.

Drakos
10-17-2010, 02:57 AM
The D20srd always have been a super inflated one. The only "official" WotC version was 3.0 rules:
http://i577.photobucket.com/albums/ss213/sergebena/Nouvelleimage2.jpg

As you can see, max is Dice 10... Also, except for some additional spell slots (understand more spell points), you do not gain new spell levels.

This PrE was removed from D&D rules 3.5 for many reasons I won't detail since you can discuss all this with more than 124 pages in the D&D forum.

Considering the way sorceror are in DDO, I don't think this prestige class will be really appropriate (but that's only my opinion).
No, if they do a Dragon Disciple PrE it should be based off of the 3.5 version in th 3.5 DMG, since the basis of this game was suposedly 3.5. You are incorrect that it was removed. It was changed, they removed the increase in HD type for one thing, but it is deffinatly in the 3.5 DMG.

Drakos
10-17-2010, 03:10 AM
i would be inclined to make them more dragon-like in other ways. the natural armor bonus doesn't seem like it would be terribly useful, sadly, and neither does DR unless it goes higher than stoneskin.

i do think offering increased resistance to an element based on the color of dragon would be nice, as well as possibly dragon immunities like paralysis iirc. i don't think you should still count as your regular race, it should change your type just like becoming a level 20 monk.
The PnP version gained immunity to the evergy type associated to their base dragon heritage.

the breath weapon could possibly use a recharge mechanic similar to smites?
Again in PnP they could only use this once per day. (DDO 1/rest)

i'm trying to think what else the dragon disciple had to offer, and tbh i can't really come up with much. it gave bonus spells known, but it cost you caster levels... truthfully, it seemed like a kinda lousy tradeoff to me, but i guess it would be useful for melee casters. maybe if you let them use their breath weapon while under the effect of tenser's?
Generally the PrC was used for a primary melee character with a little Sorc/Bard. Mostly I saw Barbarian/Sorc taking this PrC.

(it's a bit of a shame the class couldn't reasonably be allowed to fly without breaking the game so badly, because that's really about the coolest thing i could see the class really gaining).

i dunno, the AC thing just doesn't seem like it would work in DDO. it might take you closer to having a meaningful AC, but it just isn't likely to ever actually get you there imo.
For a mostly Melee it would be nice.

but anyways, what i would say:

finally, the TWF line would be an absolute bear to fit in. you'd need 17 dex to pull that off... i'm not convinced you can just do a direct translation and expect the class to work in DDO, i think you need to change things up way more than that. to represent the trade-in of casting ability for melee ability, i think it might be interesting to offer something like the archmage line... the sorc buys the prestige class, then has the option of choosing certain abilities at the cost of SP. nobody seems to be throwing a fit over arcane blast or necrotic blast, so giving something like that (in different elemental flavors, of which you may only choose one) might work. others that let you get abilities similar to TWF, but which could turn your melee abilities away from being considered TWF (to prevent those from stacking). that sort of thing.

i do think it has a lot of potential, but i also think this would be a lot of work to code. i really do wish they wouldn't consider the elemental savant to be 4 prestige classes, though, and have this be the third sorcerer prestige class. (but then again, perhaps they'll actually make all 4 elemental savant prestiges distinct... the biggest reason it annoys me is that i'm expecting a more-or-less cookie cutter set of prestige enhancements which they will pretend is actually not just the same thing with a find-replace operation being done).

edit: to clarify, the bonus spells in dragon disciple are bonus spells know. spellcasting progression is entirely halted.
This is incorrect. The additional spell wore spell slots castable/day not known spells. Your are correct in that it didn't increase your caster level or anything though.

Coments in Red!

Phaye
10-17-2010, 03:16 AM
No, if they do a Dragon Disciple PrE it should be based off of the 3.5 version in th 3.5 DMG, since the basis of this game was suposedly 3.5. You are incorrect that it was removed. It was changed, they removed the increase in HD type for one thing, but it is deffinatly in the 3.5 DMG.

Yeah I meant, the original version does not exist. The 3.5 version is even more nerfed, they removed the hit dice augmentations, hence the infinite polemics on the D&D board.

Gumbolo
10-17-2010, 05:38 AM
18 sorcs RRD/2 monk would create way too powerful set up... Far higher ac than pure monks, huge stack of sp, lvl9 spells. This class would be making a little bit less damage than monks in normal hits (3d6 vs 2d10, but their nuking would make em do more dmg on avarage), have high crit range (normal unarmed is 20/2 and 19-20/2 with feat), wf RRD's could instantly heal themselves for multiple times, buff themselves and partys and on top of that, they would gain +4str and half of cha bonus to hit (aka higher to-hit than monks).



Note: AC had to be inflated because otherwise, it was literally nothing more than flavor. This way, it's... vaguely relevant. Vaguely. Damage also had to be inflated because otherwise, as a "melee mage" option, it would've been pitifully underpowered.
pure monks gain +5 ac and you're granting +15 for RDD? o.o

Zuldar
10-17-2010, 06:24 AM
Here's an idea, since the major benefit of unarmed combat mixed with casting is the ability to channel spells through your unarmed strikes, how about giving this pre a number of spell like abilities similar to an arcane archer, but limited to touch spells only. So things like shocking tough, chill touch, ghoul touch, and vampiric touch if they ever add it.

Aaxeyu
10-17-2010, 06:45 AM
I think it's a great idea, here's my opinion on how to improve your suggestion.

Add THF or TWF requirement so you won't be full fledged caster at the same time.

No biting proc or clawing proc! Atleast no animation. If it breaks attack sequences it will be bad, and otherwise it will just look stupid.

30 sec cooldown on the breath is too much, 15 sec and no increased cooldown

Replace unarmed damage with just strength, +3/+3/+4 or something. More diversity that way.

Add an elemental effect to your attacks based on "Disciple of the <Elemental> Dragon I/II/III".


10 natural AC might be more balanced, but no less that that. Someone suggested 7, but that would only be 2 over barkskin, so it would be quite meaningless.

Schwarzie
10-17-2010, 07:20 AM
10 natural AC might be more balanced, but no less that that. Someone suggested 7, but that would only be 2 over barkskin, so it would be quite meaningless.
Barkskin gives you an enhancementbonus to your Natural Armour, therefore it would stack.

Overall i am not impressed by this PRC. the AC will still be meaningless and since you still have a poor BAB you wont hit anything, even with +4 str. And if you want to multiclas with a Monk, congratulations, you just created a Character who needs EVERY stat... Monk and sorcerer have basically no synergies. (without Ascetic Mage that is)

Aaxeyu
10-17-2010, 07:35 AM
Barkskin gives you an enhancementbonus to your Natural Armour, therefore it would stack.

Only dodge AC tend to stack.

FlyingTurtle
10-17-2010, 08:17 AM
Cute.

One thing to balance it, from a logic and gameplay standpoint.

Toasters shouldn't be allowed to turn into dragons. You're just too far away in the evolutionary tree.

dunklezhan
10-17-2010, 08:21 AM
Cute.

One thing to balance it, from a logic and gameplay standpoint.

Toasters shouldn't be allowed to turn into dragons. You're just too far away in the evolutionary tree.

Although... if they made WF titans, then a WF Dracoform isn't too unbeleivable. I vote for new raid boss, complete with irritated cleric adds trying and failing to heal it!

Schwarzie
10-17-2010, 08:24 AM
Only dodge AC tend to stack.
A creature with natural Armour has Natural Armour. Barkskin gives an enhancement to Natural Armour.

These are two different type of Boni (except the PRC would give an Enhancementbonus to natural armour which would be stupid) like a Deflection Bonus and an Armourbonus.

Aaxeyu
10-17-2010, 08:39 AM
A creature with natural Armour has Natural Armour. Barkskin gives an enhancement to Natural Armour.

These are two different type of Boni (except the PRC would give an Enhancementbonus to natural armour which would be stupid) like a Deflection Bonus and an Armourbonus.

Still think it would stack. Not in DDO anyway.

Veriden
10-17-2010, 08:40 AM
Only dodge AC tend to stack.

No, as per the rules in the books if you have a birth given natural armor bonus if you cast bark skin you gain the bonuses of bark skin ontop of the normal natural armor bonus.

Battlehawke
10-17-2010, 08:57 AM
Looks AWESEOME!! When Sorc PRE's come out again, they'll go back to being the mosts powerful class in the game......

Thanks
Battlehawke

Jaid314
10-17-2010, 11:06 AM
This is incorrect. The additional spell wore spell slots castable/day not known spells. Your are correct in that it didn't increase your caster level or anything though.

hmmm... interesting. i was pretty sure it was spells known, but i guess i was either remembering wrong or it used to work differently at some point, because it does appear to be spells/day now. regardless, simply ignoring that part should be fine, since i doubt they'll stop the caster progression of the sorc so no need to give bonus SP.



anyways, i still don't see a problem with adding the AC to a higher tier at that point. i mean, honestly, you could add +200% damage with all elemental spells to frenzied berzerker III and it wouldn't matter... it's not like you'll see sorcerers taking 18 levels of frenzied berzerker and 2 levels of sorc in order to have extra-powerful burning hands spells. same thing with +15 natural armor after 18 levels of sorc... i mean, really, you think the tank is gonna go 18 levels in sorcerer for that and forgo all the fighter enhancements that would help in melee? (not saying i expect them to do it, but i am saying that i'm not convinced this would actually be a huge problem. i'd have to see a build that makes this a problem, i suppose)

Zachski
10-17-2010, 11:57 AM
Good god, the idea of 18 Sorc/2 Monk is a statistical nightmare.

You need Wisdom for the bonus AC that Monk gives... you need Charisma to make use of Sorcerer spells... you need Dex to get TWF... you need Strength to deal damage and hit things... you need Constitution to survive...

quite honestly, I don't see how it could come close to the AC a more dedicate Monk can achieve.

Actually, I'll change how the claw and bite attacks work. But I'm not sure this would work for DDO. Your animation is claw-claw-bite at its basic, so you deal slash slash piercing.

But I'll go with +10 AC total, and just have it start a +5, go to +7, then become +10. For the record, I specified it as natural so that it did NOT stack with barkskin. A dragon's scales would hypothetically be tougher than bark, so yeah. And I'll stick with just having a total +2 Strength and +2 Charisma...

...which leads to another idea.

Dragon Apotheosis
Requirement: Dragon Disciple III, Level 20
AP: 2
Toggle ability ; Permanent Duration
Cost: 100 SP, 50 HP
You may now undergo a transformation into a half-dragon. You count as one size larger, your natural bonus to AC increases by +5, you no longer count as your race for magical bonuses. You gain a +2 draconic bonus to strength, and your hit die is changed to d10. Your breath weapons now have a larger reach and radius. You gain full BAB.

Aspenor
10-17-2010, 12:32 PM
Still think it would stack. Not in DDO anyway.

The above posters are correct. Barkskin is an ENHANCEMENT bonus to Natural Armor, much like the enhancement bonus on regular armor. Hence, barkskin stacks with inherent natural armor.

Aaxeyu
10-17-2010, 12:35 PM
The above posters are correct. Barkskin is an ENHANCEMENT bonus to Natural Armor, much like the enhancement bonus on regular armor. Hence, barkskin stacks with inherent natural armor.

Ok but, that's not how it works in DDO. Barkskin is natural bonus to AC.

Even the OP sees it that way:


For the record, I specified it as natural so that it did NOT stack with barkskin.

Aspenor
10-17-2010, 12:38 PM
Ok but, that's not how it works in DDO. Barkskin is natural bonus to AC.

Even the OP sees it that way:

meh, i didn't really bother to read the OP. Dragon Disciple sucks so hard that DDO would be best to just ignore its existence.

Mobeius
10-17-2010, 12:46 PM
Before this goes over too far in discussion...I have a question..

How would one make a dragon disciple for WF? Doesnt Dragon Disciple go with the caveat that you have some dragon blood in the wood pile of your family tree? WF are living constructs not actual blooded creatures.

voodoogroves
10-17-2010, 12:50 PM
You guys have to remember that Dragon Disciple DID NOT PROGRESS SPELL CASTING. It gave bonus spells ONLY. A Sorc 6 / DD 10 would have 3rd level spells ... DD in 3.5 was most often used by people either (a) pushing STR or (b) spamming natty attacks. Qualification was typically with as little spellcaster as possible so as to not lose those completely awesome spellcasting levels or as only a cap-stone dip once you'd already achieved 9th level spells.


Taking all the melee and other goodies and slamming it on as a Sorc. PRC in DDO that didn't lose any spells and instead got all the melee badasserry would be foolish and overpowered. If you wanted to include something similarly flavored, your best bet would be a transformative PrC akin to Pale Master where switching into "uberdraguhn" mode would cost SP, AND SPELL SLOTS ... 100 SP or something silly like that is not the answer. In a game where that represents such a small % of toal sorc SP capabilities (and since you're meleeing w/ your CO and Torc on, something you'll gain back isntantly) that seriously isn't enough.

Natty attacks, TWF and the like do not play well in DDO as well. Best bet would be to create dual-strike opptys.



Here's a thought:

Make various bits of the draconic apotheosis ... spells. Hear me out. If you want the natty armor or the "bite of the dragon", you need to take that spell. It consumes a slot. Your casting capability is reduced. Perhaps they are tagged as undispellable, but give it a REAL cost.

Jendrak
10-17-2010, 02:09 PM
A 10th level Dragon Disciple in PnP counts as a half-dragon, and gains a +4 bonus to strength and a +2 bonus to Charisma.

I think keeping the +4 bonus in would be fine, since Sorcerer gets no enhancements towards Strength like Fighter does. Moreso if you're going to reduce the damage to 2d6/2d8.

I could live with the +4 to str but the only way you should get the +2 to cha is if the spell progression in modifyed as voodoogroves pointed out. Other wise its just too much for a Pre in DDO. You gotta remember this aint PnP and what works there possibly wont work here.

Also, you basically just summarized what I was saying about the dragon wings in that they give a feather fall effect, not flight.

Just tryign to make it less confusing. There are already enough bad descriptions in game we dont need to be creating more :D

Also, the Dragon Disciple needs to choose an element. They can only have one. Hence the reason for splitting the PrE up into two different enhancements that have the same combined cost as other PrEs.

Wasn't disputing this, just pointing out that its basically gonna have to be implemented 4 times (acid, lightning, fire, cold) like the elemental savant lines.

EDIT: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/dragonDisciple.htm

I based everything off of this. Some things had to be changed to balance it with the current gameplay.

Looking at it again, I can see that Dragon Disciple should actually add HP in addition to everything, to reflect the fact that in PnP, it has a d12 hit die.

I would say adding a +2 to con istead of cha or maybe a HP enhancment line similar to AA arrow enchantments would be the way to do this.

responses in red

Jendrak
10-17-2010, 02:11 PM
Before this goes over too far in discussion...I have a question..

How would one make a dragon disciple for WF? Doesnt Dragon Disciple go with the caveat that you have some dragon blood in the wood pile of your family tree? WF are living constructs not actual blooded creatures.

Considering that to be Sorc in the first place you supposed to have an inate magical affinity (usually related to dragon blood) i think we are already past the point of tryign to explain it. This is DDO who cares about explaining it :D

voodoogroves
10-17-2010, 02:29 PM
Conceptually ... 5 level PRE

DD1 (earliest avaialble, 6th)
- Costs ... 3rd & 4th level spell slot, some number of APs
- Grants ... claws (natty attacks lethal, double-strike chance to represent claw/claw/bite), str, natty armor

DD2 (earliest available, 9th)
- costs 5th & 6th level spell, APs
- requires DD1 basic
- grants 2nd tier physicals (str + natty armor)

DD3
- 6th & 7th level spell, 3rd tier physicals (CON and more natty armor)

DD4
- 7th & 8th ... INT & natty armor; basic unarmed damage increase

DD5
- 8th & 9th level slot
- blindsight, slow-fall like monks (wings), immunities, type change, more STR and CHA


DD x elemental
- costs AP and SP to use breath
- requires ... elemental line in question
- grants breath weapon & energy resist; requires the DD x basic

Mobeius
10-17-2010, 02:40 PM
Considering that to be Sorc in the first place you supposed to have an inate magical affinity (usually related to dragon blood) i think we are already past the point of tryign to explain it. This is DDO who cares about explaining it :D

I suppose you're right but I just cant wrap my mind around a living construct turning in to part dragon... I mean explaining how it fits I guess is a moot point..

Zachski
10-17-2010, 08:11 PM
I suppose you're right but I just cant wrap my mind around a living construct turning in to part dragon... I mean explaining how it fits I guess is a moot point..

Clockwork dragon. Slowly modified by the dragon, I suppose.


meh, i didn't really bother to read the OP. Dragon Disciple sucks so hard that DDO would be best to just ignore its existence.

Just like DDO should have ignored the existence of Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Bard, Rogue, and Sorcerer, right? Since, after all, Wizards, Clerics, and Favored Souls can do EVERYTHING far better than any other class!

Oh, wait. This isn't PnP. This is DDO, where basically everything is changed and balanced. Even the formerly useless Bards are suddenly useful.

So yeah. Your point? Non-existent. I expected better from you.

Drakos
10-17-2010, 11:26 PM
18 sorcs RRD/2 monk would create way too powerful set up... Far higher ac than pure monks, huge stack of sp, lvl9 spells. This class would be making a little bit less damage than monks in normal hits (3d6 vs 2d10, but their nuking would make em do more dmg on avarage), have high crit range (normal unarmed is 20/2 and 19-20/2 with feat), wf RRD's could instantly heal themselves for multiple times, buff themselves and partys and on top of that, they would gain +4str and half of cha bonus to hit (aka higher to-hit than monks).


pure monks gain +5 ac and you're granting +15 for RDD? o.o
Yes but Pure Monks are also getting Wis to AC whuch could easily make up for the disparity. A Sorc/Monk would add yet another pertinent ability to the 4 current Monks have to consider.

Again, I also think that +15 Nat AC is out of line, just pointing out the above.

Drakos
10-17-2010, 11:37 PM
Before this goes over too far in discussion...I have a question..

How would one make a dragon disciple for WF? Doesnt Dragon Disciple go with the caveat that you have some dragon blood in the wood pile of your family tree? WF are living constructs not actual blooded creatures.
Not really! Since the early days of 3.0 and into 3.5 they stressed that Sorcerer powers were related to Dragons (but they did leave the connection tenious and not 100%). In fact they like to link spontanious arcane casters to dragons. This is why it required that you be able to cast Arcans spells without study to enter the PrC. In fact, it specifically stated that you COULD NOT already be of Dragon type to enter the class.

Aaxeyu
10-18-2010, 02:05 AM
meh, i didn't really bother to read the OP. Dragon Disciple sucks so hard that DDO would be best to just ignore its existence.

Well, I don't care about the class performs in pnp tbh. This is DDO and the devs can do whatever they want.

I think it could be interesting if they do it right. But not exactly high priority compared to the elemental savant PrEs.

aje
11-10-2010, 07:21 AM
Giving sorceror's vastly improved melee power (without it being some prestige idea like eldritch knight) wouldn't fall in to any 'traditional' sorceror prestige scheme. Maybe you could take your base idea (some decent unarmed option abilities) and weave them into Acolyte of the Skin (a real sorc pre). But you may have to dump your dragon motif.

This is a real Sorceror prestige, Check the Dungeon Master Guide v3.0, and honestly saying that the dragon theme for a sorceror is repetitive (the motif comment) is pretty ignorant seeing as that is what the sorceror class is structured around, the traces of dragon blood in your characters heritage.

Senshock
11-10-2010, 07:28 AM
The only thing that I can say about this idea is that I simply cannot imagine a scenario where I want my Sorc to be using handwraps, need a natural AC bonus, rely on a gimmicky feeling breath-weapon, or not have a feather fall item handy. If I want to play a Monk, I'd roll a Monk. The Str bonus to carry random chest-loot would be the only thing I'd find even halfway useful, and that does not justify taking a PrE.

If and when the Devs get around to putting in Sorc PrEs... I'd want them to be useful. But, man, this sounds worse and of less practical worth then Deepwood Sniper.

This

soulaeon
11-10-2010, 07:41 AM
lol I really dont want to see any more melee DPS. The game is full of it.

Exowerewolf
01-23-2011, 04:13 PM
I think it's better to improve the spell casting, like archmage, like a "breath weapon" is a improve <elemental> burning hand or a elemental cone at reduce sp cost, for example an improve burning hand(1d8 fire dmg per caster level) with 3 or 5 sp cost and 3 sec cool down or x times per rest
the Prestige class give elemental spell-like abilities.
give a +7 max natural armor
bonus to +2 con, and +4 str max
Give a permanent metamagic like maximize or empower to elemental spells without the extra sp cost.
feather fall permanent i think it's better if became a spell-like ability with reduce cost and self cast only with 1min per caster level.
50% more damage from opposite element (fire recive 50% damage from cold for example)
A Draconic form I,II,III(100-150-200 sp cost), like pale master undead forms, innmunity to knockdown, hold person or something like that, cant cast spells, except elemental spells and/or breath weapon, unnarmed attack, 1d6,2d6,3d6 dmg, extra bonus to AC, Hp, HR, SR, perment Feather fall, (I think this way if a sorc runs out of sp can still be useful)
improve intimidate

something like this, if anyone can turn this into a real enhancement progresion, (i dont know how to do it right)

I think this way can powerup a sorc abilities, instead of become one into a monk-like class

doubledge
01-23-2011, 06:17 PM
make it so that they take double damage from arrows, and i'm in

h4x0r1f1c
01-23-2011, 07:07 PM
/notsigned, not going to use my AP for Concentration.