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painindaguild
10-16-2010, 05:20 AM
Hey evryone,

I recently rolled up an AC based toon, not because i believed it was usefull but just for the fun of it. can go over 100 with full buffs. Done some raids, done some slayer done some quest. Wat i noticed is that AC is just incredibly broken currently. I assume its just always been this way (from PnP or watever, didnt grow up with that stuff)

on the one hand, enter a vale quest on normal. UR GODLIKE. Nothing that can even remotely touch u. take a 5dr buff and ur Neo fighting some agents.

on the other hand enter a epic. Von is a good example. Trolls hit u like 90% of the time. DR and stuff like displacement are the only usefull defences in there. Suddenly not the healer but the caster is the one that evryone cries for to help him.

My point is. Fix this were on normal quests u cant even be hurt by the endboss, and on epic even a bat hits u almost all the time.

My suggestion is to make more use of the "grazing hits". High AC builds tend to have less hp. mine is a rog, but i know a ranger hitting 90 ac as well. Wich means that if u got a high AC, u should take like half damage of each hit. Not Miss. its just insanely boring to walk trough a quest and see: Miss.. Miss.. Miss..

Weres the challenge in that? However i do believe that classes that have naturally less HP and more AC (monks for instance, get free ac, extra ac from wis, and have much less hp from levels) should have use on epics.

I do not ask for the Miss Miss Miss icons. The simple fact is that its overpowered and unbalanced. On normal ur god, on elite ur a squishie. Wat i ask is to make some sorta balance for certain ac treshholds to get grazing hits, wich do like half or even less damage, but still damage in a certain amount. ( and not almost full damage like now).
This way both a high ac rog and a fighter with no ac will have there hp dropped likewise on epics.

It's ment to make other classes besides wizard, bard, fighter, barb, healer also a little more usefull on epics.

helicalius
10-16-2010, 06:33 AM
100 ac? mine is 28 im pure dps.
i dont think you thought it throu. it would be unreal at this point to change the whole armor class dimensions into something like dr. i think it would be wiser to put variation of mobs inside quests whether their epic or normal so that lets say a 100 ac build whould be able to be god like compared to 70% of the mobs and if you have dr it works on 90% of the mobs and the rest can penetrate. what im trying to say that the problem may be in the quest monster variation and not in the players ac build engine.

nevertheless good point which ddo developers should attend to.

Natashaelle
10-16-2010, 06:37 AM
your suggestions are quite confusing ... on the one hand you want AC to mean something ; on the other you want to increase the damage input from grazing hits, basically making AC even *more* pointless ?


High AC builds tend to have less hp. mine is a rog, but i know a ranger hitting 90 ac as well.

You know, there's one very important thing that *most* people are completely oblivious to when making their high AC toons -- when you're being flanked, your enemies have a bonus to hit, and they ignore your DEX bonus...

So, some DEX-based squishies running around with what they *think* is AC90 might very often be closer to about an effective AC70 or less -- ie nowhere even *near* good enough to tank in Epic difficulty.


I do not ask for the Miss Miss Miss icons. The simple fact is that its overpowered and unbalanced. On normal ur god, on elite ur a squishie. Wat i ask is to make some sorta balance for certain ac treshholds to get grazing hits, wich do like half or even less damage, but still damage in a certain amount. ( and not almost full damage like now).
This way both a high ac rog and a fighter with no ac will have there hp dropped likewise on epics.

What you're suggesting would turn your rogue into a pile of mincemeat, and simultaneously require that every single mêlée toon be either a stalwart defender or barbarian.

erm -- it would also mean making a completely different game, because the combat mechanics would no longer even *vaguely* resemble D&D. Call it RuneQuest Online: Pavis instead, maybe ? :D

Scraap
10-16-2010, 07:02 AM
You know, there's one very important thing that *most* people are completely oblivious to when making their high AC toons -- when you're being flanked, your enemies have a bonus to hit, and they ignore your DEX bonus...

So, some DEX-based squishies running around with what they *think* is AC90 might very often be closer to about an effective AC70 or less -- ie nowhere even *near* good enough to tank in Epic difficulty.


Got a link on that from a dev?

Know that works *approximately* along those lines in PnP (though it's more a case of flatfooted et al, which don't exist here), which is one of the few reasons medium armor actually lasts beyond a couple levels there since that can put you in the same dice-range depending on situation.

It's something I've contemplated sitting on down and doing up a full suggestion about at times (loss of dex+dodge when flanked to bring the AC range tighter together), but it's something I've held off on till I've tinkered with a few more AC variants... Now if you're saying it already works out like that, but there's no tooltip or GUI display, perhaps it's a bit beyond time that was explicitly listed on the char sheet.

painindaguild
10-16-2010, 07:21 AM
I think u misunderstood me. prolly becus my post is once more too vague. Wat I mean is:

instead of the miss miss miss working of ac currently, make it more like grazing hits, e.g. taking half damage for instance, working on epic also.

given a rangersplash with 90 ac and 350 hp. takes half damage from each it from its ac

also a fighter 700 hp 20 ac full damage taken all the time except on the "1".

Wat we will get now is the ranger acting like he has 700 hp also, making it a viable choise for epics (not regards dps).

Getting this High AC will get urself going dex-based. e.g. finesse based builds get a boost here.

Then indeed we get another class getting out of balance: defenders will get insane tanks (half damage away from high AC and blocking DR reducing further damage. Looks fine to me. if someone chooses not to dps but block, he can have such great defensive boost.


your suggestions are quite confusing ... on the one hand you want AC to mean something ; on the other you want to increase the damage input from grazing hits, basically making AC even *more* pointless ?



You know, there's one very important thing that *most* people are completely oblivious to when making their high AC toons -- when you're being flanked, your enemies have a bonus to hit, and they ignore your DEX bonus...

So, some DEX-based squishies running around with what they *think* is AC90 might very often be closer to about an effective AC70 or less -- ie nowhere even *near* good enough to tank in Epic difficulty.



What you're suggesting would turn your rogue into a pile of mincemeat, and simultaneously require that every single mêlée toon be either a stalwart defender or barbarian.

erm -- it would also mean making a completely different game, because the combat mechanics would no longer even *vaguely* resemble D&D. Call it RuneQuest Online: Pavis instead, maybe ? :D

Wen u get flanked it means u got at least 2 monsters on u. If u do this stuff on epics as a dex ranger ur simply not smart or u got incredible bad luck. More important it gives the need to group up for epics. its not that u can simply walk in and oO with the new change im also near godlike on epics now lets solo this!
it will however greatly improve 1on1 combat and improve ac in general in epics.

I think ur last point is hitting the spot. It does not resemble D&D.

Evryone with a lil idea about game balance knows that with the working of current AC u either gotta keep it controlled (so no ac on epics) or build the game around it (u need ac or ur "gimp")
It's not only epics, also on normal that u should just take LESS damage instead of no damage at all due to ur high AC. I think the GM's also have the same vision of AC (it's in D&D, but we got no clue how to balance it correctly in this game). But its just weird that on any quest on normal u can go afk for 10 mins having evrything beat u up and come back an see u lost 100 hp, and in elite or epic be 3 shotted by a boss. that's just unbalanced.

I got no problems with AC working as it does now, just tryin to maintain a healthy discussion about it since i find it to be an all or non option wich i dont like as a flavor myself.

Alintalkin
10-16-2010, 07:51 AM
I think u misunderstood me. prolly becus my post is once more too vague. Wat I mean is:

instead of the miss miss miss working of ac currently, make it more like grazing hits, e.g. taking half damage for instance, working on epic also.

given a rangersplash with 90 ac and 350 hp. takes half damage from each it from its ac

also a fighter 700 hp 20 ac full damage taken all the time except on the "1".

Wat we will get now is the ranger acting like he has 700 hp also, making it a viable choise for epics (not regards dps).

Getting this High AC will get urself going dex-based. e.g. finesse based builds get a boost here.

Then indeed we get another class getting out of balance: defenders will get insane tanks (half damage away from high AC and blocking DR reducing further damage. Looks fine to me. if someone chooses not to dps but block, he can have such great defensive boost.



Wen u get flanked it means u got at least 2 monsters on u. If u do this stuff on epics as a dex ranger ur simply not smart or u got incredible bad luck. More important it gives the need to group up for epics. its not that u can simply walk in and oO with the new change im also near godlike on epics now lets solo this!
it will however greatly improve 1on1 combat and improve ac in general in epics.

I think ur last point is hitting the spot. It does not resemble D&D.

Evryone with a lil idea about game balance knows that with the working of current AC u either gotta keep it controlled (so no ac on epics) or build the game around it (u need ac or ur "gimp")
It's not only epics, also on normal that u should just take LESS damage instead of no damage at all due to ur high AC. I think the GM's also have the same vision of AC (it's in D&D, but we got no clue how to balance it correctly in this game). But its just weird that on any quest on normal u can go afk for 10 mins having evrything beat u up and come back an see u lost 100 hp, and in elite or epic be 3 shotted by a boss. that's just unbalanced.

I got no problems with AC working as it does now, just tryin to maintain a healthy discussion about it since i find it to be an all or non option wich i dont like as a flavor myself.

The thing that stands out the most here is that you imply that on a dex based ranger you have what, 350hp? On a ranger you can hit over 500, heck once I fully level and gear my rogue they will be over 500. Grazing hits are for when you barely avoid taking the blunt of an enemies attack. When you have an AC so high you avoid an enemies' attack, you should not be hit... because you either absorb the hit (It glances off but to a degree in which it doesn't effect you) or you dodge it completely. What you are implying doesn't make logical sense. There is suppose to be a huge gap between epics and normal. If there wasn't there would be no point in having the different difficulties. The hp problem (I am guessing that is your friend or yourself) is due to the lack of gear or lack of thinking when building them. Some people can pull off low hp, but there is a lot less room for error so it is usually frowned upon. When you get get your 100 ac and still have 500-600 hp that is the expectation. If you go high AC to tank... have the high HP as well. A 350hp ranger wouldn't even do well in ToD normal if they get a 500 pt disintegrate in the face, which I will say means that for all your complaining about being 3 shotted on epic, you can be one shotted on normal (btw using a level 16 vale quest on normal in your OP to describe how powerful AC on normal than comparing it to a level 25 epic quest doesn't make sense there is a 9 level different in difficulty) .

My suggestion would to be simply to lower the to hit of mobs in epic to a point where around 90-100 ac (somewhere in between) is decent enough to avoid being hit 20-50% of the time.

edit1: changed power to powerful.
Edit 2: Fixed a spelling mistake

AyumiAmakusa
10-16-2010, 08:01 AM
tldr

But yeah, AC is broken.

Now can we get a screenshot of your 100 AC? :)

Frostwhisperer
10-16-2010, 08:09 AM
*snip*
So, some DEX-based squishies running around with what they *think* is AC90 might very often be closer to about an effective AC70 or less -- ie nowhere even *near* good enough to tank in Epic difficulty.


I thought they only get a +2 to hit. This explains so much

dunklezhan
10-16-2010, 08:23 AM
Hmm. I thought the point of a very high ac was so that you pretty much couldn't be hit (except on a nat 20 - and for some reason in DDO before this can be a critical this then requires a confirmation roll on top, and of course with fort this would mean it was just a normal hit anyway). I wouldn't want to see that changed.

If you have 100AC then on normal or even elite in the vast majority of the game you should only be getting hit at all on a vorpal strike. You're so tough/agile/masterful at parrying or blocking that nothing has a chance to get in there except by being very, very lucky. On epic... well that's just something invented so there was something to do at end game, the rules adhered to and the experience gamed from the rest of the game seemingly don't apply in there anyway.

/rant on - feel free to skip to the end.

What I think is more objectionable is that AC figures such as 100 are even considered as being required. That by the time you get to L10 if you don't have AC40 you may as well be wearing a dress or pyjamas. That's what needs fixing somehow.

If you've got an AC100, then good for you. You must've carefully crafted your toon, geared it out with decent (dare I say epic) gear, and deserve to be nigh on invulnerable to melee combat most of the time. As things are, in the L10+ content that I've experienced and read about, I'd personally like to add DR equal to the + value on any armour or shield you are wearing, so that its actually worth wearing armour if your class is able to even when you're in the level range where currently anything less than absolute top level AC figures are pointless.

E.g. I'm in gianthold as a rogue. I have AC35, which conventional wisdom says is fairly much pointless, may as well be wearing cloth. However, what I am wearing is +5 chain. So why not automatically give 5 additional DR? Admantine chain would make that a +6DR, there's a few other items that might take some more off, but those giants are still hitting for 20points of damage per swing more if they crit and for some reason I don't have heavy fort on. my 5DR represents 25% damage reduction. If I'm carring a +5 buckler too, that's DR11, or more than 50% DR - but that seems fair enough if the wizard next to me is wearing her robes of power VII and is clocking for full whack because she's wearing a frickin' dress and carrying a stick in both hands.

Stood next to me is an AC geared and built fighter, also in +5 adamantine armour of some kind with a +5 shield. They're getting the same DR - but because they've been built for AC, they're getting AC up in the 50s. They're only getting hit 50% of the time because of their build, and their built in DR from their magical armour is helping them the rest of the time. My rogue is taking more damage if he has aggro because of the lower AC. The wizard is getting creamed because she's refusing to listen and is for some reason still in the melee wearing a dress, but the fighter is lording it up taking damage only 50% of the time, and only taking 50% damage when they do get hit, due to their AC and DR. Why is that a problem?

Taking out the rules and mechanics, that sounds like DnD as its meant to be played. Healers are happier. Melees are happier, clothies stay the heck out of they way like they're supposed to or they get creamed.Clothy AC builds like monks and so on come off a little worse because although they get away with being hit 50% of the time, when they do get hit they get hurt like any other clothie unless they've got some specific DR gear/abilities of their own. I don't think this makes the game easy mode necessarily, but it certainly makes it more forgiving for those that have got mid level, rather than top level gear. At the moment if you don't have top level gear you may as well have nothing and that's a sure sign of a poor mechanic.

/rant off. sorry.

What I'm saying is - if you ignore all my badly thought out suggestions - that if you've managed to get yourself a properly geared and built AC toon sufficient to be practically invulnerable at L20 non-epic quests - go you! What are you complaining about? If that toon is getting 3 shotted in Epics, then maybe you need some more epic level gear, or maybe Epic is broken. I'll not deny that AC is broken - but it doesn't need making more pointless.

uhgungawa
10-16-2010, 08:42 AM
As simply put as I can, this game is based off D&D's D20 system. If you can easily have an AC gap of 50 or more between different toons, ant only a max of 20 for enemy to hit then yes, the whole AC concept is broken. And there is no fix that I see in the near future.

FlyingTurtle
10-16-2010, 09:01 AM
Leave AC as it is, but have a chance for higher DR values on heavier armor, to keep them relevant. E.g., souped up versions of the Adamantine prefix with higher ML.

Greater Adamantine, ML+8
not available on light, 5/- on medium, 15/- on heavy

Dense Adamantine, ML +12
Available only on heavy, 30/-

etc. Number are nonsense values off the top of my head.

EDIT: just read Dunkle's suggestion, similar idea. I think mine is easier to implement though.

dunklezhan
10-16-2010, 09:32 AM
Leave AC as it is, but have a chance for higher DR values on heavier armor, to keep them relevant. E.g., souped up versions of the Adamantine prefix with higher ML.

Greater Adamantine, ML+8
not available on light, 5/- on medium, 15/- on heavy

Dense Adamantine, ML +12
Available only on heavy, 30/-

etc. Number are nonsense values off the top of my head.

EDIT: just read Dunkle's suggestion, similar idea. I think mine is easier to implement though.

Mine just said turn the + on armour into DR. on the face of it that's probably easier to implement than yours simply because it would apply to all armour except cloth. That's by the by. Greater minds than mine would have to determine appropriate values on either my or your suggestion.

Either way. I wouldn't have a problem with the solution you've suggested either, because I think unless they're going to revamp the whole AC/to hit system, some form of DR is the only way to go to make wearing armour worth it on all but the top level toons once you get past L10. And I think it should be worth wearing armour if you're able.