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View Full Version : Put down your weapons and stop ruining gimping shroud runs



hurricane333
10-15-2010, 06:52 PM
Thanks.

Srozbun
10-15-2010, 06:58 PM
what?

My interpretation of your post is waaah my shroud failed I"m going to blame the FvS who was too busy contributing to DPS and not healing.

Jakarr
10-15-2010, 06:59 PM
I'll add my interpretation of the op...Waaah my character build is either gimp or I dont have enough player skill to pull it off so its the FvS fault.

Doxmaster
10-15-2010, 07:12 PM
Cant FVS go Battle-Divine so hard people think they are some wierd barb/cleric multiclass? With more SP than a cleric and more self sufficiency than basically anyone else?

Maybe you didnt know. 1 sec.


Spell:Divine Power
From DDO Compendium

Official Game Entry
Divine Power
Cooldown: 4 seconds
Spell Point Cost:
Target: Self
Level:
4 (Cleric, Favored Soul)
Components: DivineFocus, Somatic, Verbal
School: Evocation
Metamagic: Extend, Quicken
Spell Resistance: No
The divine power of a god imbues the caster with power and skill in combat, granting a +6 enhancement bonus to Strength, 1 temporary hit point per cast level, and a base attack bonus equal to a fighter of the same level.




They melee as well as a fighter, cast as fast as a sorcerer, have the spells of a cleric AND have more SP than a cleric even if they leave their caster stats as dump stats (only put 8 in wisdom and charisma).

If ANYONE belongs in melee it's the guy that can, at will, heal every single person beside him to full health and, after that slight pause, continue rocking hard in melee.

t0r012
10-15-2010, 07:23 PM
I kinda took this the other way.
I was thinking a FvS carried a pug through a shround and this guy wanted to see it go down in flames.

Zuldar
10-15-2010, 07:46 PM
Cant FVS go Battle-Divine so hard people think they are some wierd barb/cleric multiclass? With more SP than a cleric and more self sufficiency than basically anyone else?

Maybe you didnt know. 1 sec.


They melee as well as a fighter, cast as fast as a sorcerer, have the spells of a cleric AND have more SP than a cleric even if they leave their caster stats as dump stats (only put 8 in wisdom and charisma).

If ANYONE belongs in melee it's the guy that can, at will, heal every single person beside him to full health and, after that slight pause, continue rocking hard in melee.

I keep telling people, fvs's are the best class in the game, really no reason to roll anything else.

Hokonoso
10-15-2010, 08:00 PM
I keep telling people, fvs's are the best class in the game, really no reason to roll anything else.

1. they cant pick locks/knock doors
2. they cant firewall
3. their melee dps isnt even half that of a dps class
4. soloing epics is costs more resources than a caster thus making you spend more tp/real life money
5. could go on and on

just a small list of reasons to roll other things :D

of course the worst part is every group you join only invites you for one thing! healbot! they dont care if you dps, they dont care what spells you have, they only want you to carry them thru the quest!!!!!

FlyingTurtle
10-15-2010, 08:00 PM
I kinda took this the other way.
I was thinking a FvS carried a pug through a shround and this guy wanted to see it go down in flames.

Yup, "stop ruining gimping shroud runs": the FvS ruined his brilliant plan for gimping the shroud run by unexpectedly being effective DPS.

Kominalito
10-15-2010, 08:23 PM
i like checking the stats at teh end of the run and seeing my FVS with 3 times the kills than the barb and the fighter. and remembering how many times i saved the "zerg squishy" rogue who plays like a raging barb.

Zuldar
10-15-2010, 09:53 PM
1. they cant pick locks/knock doors
2. they cant firewall
3. their melee dps isnt even half that of a dps class
4. soloing epics is costs more resources than a caster thus making you spend more tp/real life money
5. could go on and on


1. Doesn't usually come into play much
2. Blade Barrier works just as well, better in fact against a lot of end game mobs
3. From personal experience over 4 tr's it roughly 70-80% of an equally geared dps class, and completely overshadows your standard pug.
4. Go farm a torc/con op item, drastically reduces your costs.
5. Etc.

Sutekx
10-15-2010, 10:09 PM
1. they cant pick locks/knock doors
2. they cant firewall
3. their melee dps isnt even half that of a dps class
4. soloing epics is costs more resources than a caster thus making you spend more tp/real life money
5. could go on and on

just a small list of reasons to roll other things :D

of course the worst part is every group you join only invites you for one thing! healbot! they dont care if you dps, they dont care what spells you have, they only want you to carry them thru the quest!!!!!

1. They can up till a certain point (UMD, Knock 10th lvl wand)
2. They can, but not as powerful as a sorc or wiz (umd and scrolls)
3. Depends on build and gear
4. Spending TP??? Depends on how you know HOW to manage your resources

esoitl
10-15-2010, 10:21 PM
They melee as well as a fighter, cast as fast as a sorcerer, have the spells of a cleric AND have more SP than a cleric even if they leave their caster stats as dump stats (only put 8 in wisdom and charisma).

If ANYONE belongs in melee it's the guy that can, at will, heal every single person beside him to full health and, after that slight pause, continue rocking hard in melee.

They don't cast faster, and they have limited spell selection...
So while they have the same spells to choose from, they rarely carry some of the standard spells a Cleric would because of lack of casting slots. Not that it matters in most cases as they are most often not missed, but just saying.

sirgog
10-16-2010, 02:04 AM
I kinda took this the other way.
I was thinking a FvS carried a pug through a shround and this guy wanted to see it go down in flames.

I thought that too.

FvS - the only class that can stand toe-to-toe with Horoth without any external healing; the only class that has ever soloed ToD; and, the class that would be my first choice were I ever to attempt to solo Shroud.

flipstre
10-16-2010, 04:26 AM
I thought that too.

FvS - the only class that can stand toe-to-toe with Horoth without any external healing; the only class that has ever soloed ToD; and, the class that would be my first choice were I ever to attempt to solo Shroud.



lol ouch to the OP lol

bendover
10-16-2010, 11:58 AM
Thanks.

Favored Souls happen to be one of the best melee class IMO. Perfect mix of dps + survivablility goes a long way. Build a better toon and you wouldn't fail shroud.

Chai
10-16-2010, 12:03 PM
I dont think gimping will ever really be ruined. Either will moaning about gimping.

Maybe someone built a toon so well they ruined the chance to gimp a shroud run, or gimped a chance to ruin a shroud run, or they run the chance of gimping a ruined shroud or ruining a gimped shroud.

This thread has all kinds of potential.

Aranticus
10-16-2010, 02:10 PM
1. Doesn't usually come into play much
2. Blade Barrier works just as well, better in fact against a lot of end game mobs
3. From personal experience over 4 tr's it roughly 70-80% of an equally geared dps class, and completely overshadows your standard pug.
4. Go farm a torc/con op item, drastically reduces your costs.
5. Etc.

Can you show how you arrive at the 70-80% figure? My experience is closer to 60-70% region

snoopy
10-16-2010, 11:27 PM
You should carry your own pots for buff's etc. my capped FVS does not HEAL STUPID, ZERGERS are on their own, I join parties as a healer or melee to get the job done and reach the end goal, WE are not your personel babysitters, same as Clerics.

Wizzly_Bear
10-16-2010, 11:34 PM
Thanks.
Stop whining about not having a babysitter.

Thanks.

and -1

Bacab
10-17-2010, 12:05 AM
Can you show how you arrive at the 70-80% figure? My experience is closer to 60-70% region

I think the key is "equally geared" melee.

I don't really go by kills or anything...I am not really sure whats better/best.

My melee FVS and my Warchanter Bard was the closest thing to a melee I ever played.

I do know a well geared *anything* will out perform an undergeared anything.

How about this Aranticus...

"They" (who???they of course) say that a Melee Specced Favored Soul can do 70-80%. Basically someone wrote it here and that person quoted it. I have seen 70-80% presented a lot.

I do think my melee FVS can beat a level 20 Barb that is using a Shield and Fist for DPS...but my Evoker prolly could'nt beat that Barb.

Xeraphim
10-17-2010, 12:07 AM
Thanks.

Yeah, they really should put their weapons down and just go unarmed! Seriously!

Stop ruining gimping Shroud runs folks! We want to see more gimp!

:p

sirgog
10-17-2010, 12:29 AM
Can you show how you arrive at the 70-80% figure? My experience is closer to 60-70% region

Best data I can go by: With the WF Brute Fighting 4 enhancement active but no other threat boosts, I take aggro from less geared folks on my WF FvS20 but usually not from equivalently geared folks.

Add the non-epic Claw set (+10% more threat) and I take aggro from all but the few who outclass me in gear (melees wearing Epic Marilith Chain and wielding an epic Chaosblade in the offhand and a +4 holy silver greater evil outsider bane in the mainhand, for instance)

So 1.2x my damage is a little under 100% of a traditional melee (equally geared) and 1.32x is a little over - making 75-83% a likely range. Subtract a little to account for the requirement of casting Divine Power and Divine Favor as required, and you are more around the 70-80% range.

Aranticus
10-17-2010, 03:47 AM
Best data I can go by: With the WF Brute Fighting 4 enhancement active but no other threat boosts, I take aggro from less geared folks on my WF FvS20 but usually not from equivalently geared folks.

Add the non-epic Claw set (+10% more threat) and I take aggro from all but the few who outclass me in gear (melees wearing Epic Marilith Chain and wielding an epic Chaosblade in the offhand and a +4 holy silver greater evil outsider bane in the mainhand, for instance)

So 1.2x my damage is a little under 100% of a traditional melee (equally geared) and 1.32x is a little over - making 75-83% a likely range. Subtract a little to account for the requirement of casting Divine Power and Divine Favor as required, and you are more around the 70-80% range.

going by threat isnt really the way to determine your dps output. there are many ways in which threat can be modified. try listing down your +damage modifiers and gear, we can easily make a comparison here

hecate355
10-17-2010, 04:00 AM
There is no way fvs gets as close as 70-80%. I have capped lord of blades melee fvs, at best it does damage barbarians do when not double frenzied, which is big part of their dps. At best it goes somewhere to 50% of real melee dps.

hecate355
10-17-2010, 04:02 AM
Stop telling me what i can and cant gimp, i gimp everything i feel like and when i feel like doing it, none of your business how deeply i plan to gimp myself.

Wizzly_Bear
10-17-2010, 05:16 AM
There is no way fvs gets as close as 70-80%. I have capped lord of blades melee fvs, at best it does damage barbarians do when not double frenzied, which is big part of their dps. At best it goes somewhere to 50% of real melee dps.
Maybe you can explain to me how this barb does 2x the damage of this soul, cuz I don't see how.


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)
Level 20 Neutral Good Warforged Male
(20 Barbarian)
Hit Points: 372
Spell Points: 0
BAB: 20\20\25\30\30
Fortitude: 14
Reflex: 5
Will: 4
Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(32 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
Strength 18 25
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 10 14
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 6 6
Charisma 6 6
[/COLOR]
Level 1 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 3 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave

Level 4 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 6 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 8 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 9 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting

Level 12 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting

Level 15 (Barbarian)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting

Level 16 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 20 (Barbarian)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Barbarian Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I
Enhancement: Barbarian Extend Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Extra Rage I
Enhancement: Barbarian Hardy Rage II
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Attack III
Enhancement: Barbarian Power Rage IV
Enhancement: Barbarian Frenzied Berserker III
Enhancement: Barbarian Might
Enhancement: Barbarian Item Defense I
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution II
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness III
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude III



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 3.5.1
DDO Character Planner Home Page (http://www.rjcyberware.com/DDO)
Level 20 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(20 Favored Soul)
Hit Points: 272
Spell Points: 1725
BAB: 15\15\20\25\25
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 11
Will: 10
Starting Feat/Enhancement
Abilities Base Stats Modified Stats
(28 Point) (Level 1) (Level 20)
[COLOR=silver]Strength 18 23
Dexterity 8 8
Constitution 10 12
Intelligence 8 8
Wisdom 6 7
Charisma 6 10
Level 1 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Diety) Favored by the Lord of Blades
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack

Level 3 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness

Level 4 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 6 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting

Level 8 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 9 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting

Level 12 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 15 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Handed Fighting

Level 16 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR

Level 20 (Favored Soul)
Ability Raise: STR
Enhancement: Favored Soul Damage Boost IV
Enhancement: Favored Soul Ascendency: Lord of Blades
Enhancement: Bladesworn Transformation
Enhancement: Favored Soul Greatsword Specialization II
Enhancement: Racial Toughness II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Life I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Prayer of Incredible Life I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Life Magic IV
Enhancement: Favored Soul Charisma II
Enhancement: Favored Soul Wisdom I
Enhancement: Favored Soul Toughness III
Enhancement: Favored Soul Wand and Scroll Mastery IV
Enhancement: Warforged Constitution II
Enhancement: Warforged Healer's Friend I
Enhancement: Warforged Power Attack III
Enhancement: Warforged Great Weapon Aptitude III

Wizzly_Bear
10-17-2010, 05:20 AM
Soul gets
+ 2 damage enhancement to preferred weapon
+ divine focus

Barb gets
+ rage
+ frenzy
+ 3 PA
+ better glancing blows

The barb certainly beats the soul, but not by double. I think the earlier estimate of 70-80% of similarly equipped and skilled dps-specced melee is correct.

Zuldar
10-17-2010, 06:15 AM
Soul gets
+ 2 damage enhancement to preferred weapon
+ divine focus

Barb gets
+ rage
+ frenzy
+ 3 PA
+ better glancing blows

The barb certainly beats the soul, but not by double. I think the earlier estimate of 70-80% of similarly equipped and skilled dps-specced melee is correct.

Don't forget about the extra +2 fvs get from weapon specialization.

Wizzly_Bear
10-17-2010, 06:36 AM
Don't forget about the extra +2 fvs get from weapon specialization.
indeed, I did forget

hecate355
10-17-2010, 07:04 AM
Soul gets
+ 2 damage enhancement to preferred weapon
+ divine focus

Barb gets
+ rage
+ frenzy
+ 3 PA
+ better glancing blows

The barb certainly beats the soul, but not by double. I think the earlier estimate of 70-80% of similarly equipped and skilled dps-specced melee is correct.

We are talking about fvs with ~30 str vs barb with 53 str when raged+ using double frenzy

hecate355
10-17-2010, 07:08 AM
i will go and perform simple barb vs fvs on ship dummy beat speed test later when i log on.

its not universal situation, but its equal to both, actually it even leans towards fvs, cause of loss of 2x crit multiplier vs barbs 3x base that goes up when raged, due to the fact that dummy cant be critted.

hecate355
10-17-2010, 07:16 AM
in my case:

barb: ~55 base damage, at leas same amount from double frenzy plus increased glancing blow damage(my fvs doesent have thf line), crits 480-530.
fvs: ~45-55(dont remember by head) base, 15 glancing blows, and thats all befor weapon effects, crits ~110 with greatsword.

of cours its far from full math, but its sure better equation than those 2 character planner comparsions, so unless i really underestimate greatsword with lower crit, but better crit profile vs greataxe with higher crit, lower profile, then i dont see this fvs being 70-80% of barb.

harold2560
10-17-2010, 07:22 AM
1. they cant pick locks/knock doors
2. they cant firewall
3. their melee dps isnt even half that of a dps class
4. soloing epics is costs more resources than a caster thus making you spend more tp/real life money
5. could go on and on

just a small list of reasons to roll other things :D

of course the worst part is every group you join only invites you for one thing! healbot! they dont care if you dps, they dont care what spells you have, they only want you to carry them thru the quest!!!!!

Wrong!

1. Its called UMD and wands of knock (10th level)
2. oh well lol
3. My fvs twf is MORE dps than any stalwart fighter i have run with. even twf stalwart defenders.
4. meh
5. not gonna argue about the need to roll other classes as i agree! Playing multiple classes can make you a better player.

and for the people needing a healbot. they dont know what they need! if you kill it faster you generally need less healing. Id much rather have a competent battle healer or Healing warchanter than a healer who only has healing to contribute. Every toon can be good at more than one thing.

Wizzly_Bear
10-17-2010, 07:39 AM
hecate - why would the soul only have 30 strength? why would the barb only have 53? and the character planner was just to show a lot of the similarities, I asked for differences. melees are not my forte, but I am inclined to believe sirgog on his ~70-80%.

of course, that's being generous and allowing the dps-only character a healer. afterall, a dead dps is no dps.

hecate355
10-17-2010, 08:20 AM
hecate - why would the soul only have 30 strength? why would the barb only have 53? and the character planner was just to show a lot of the similarities, I asked for differences. melees are not my forte, but I am inclined to believe sirgog on his ~70-80%.

of course, that's being generous and allowing the dps-only character a healer. afterall, a dead dps is no dps.

both are capped, both have same possibilities to raise str beyond those i mentioned, i never claimed its maximum possible str, i highly doubt there is any fvs restricted equipment that pulls him through that difference in strength vs raging barbarian, the difference stays, double frenzy stays, whatever equipment you add to both of those classes. simply their base is different.

as for differences, its quite obvious barb with 50+50 roughly 100 per swing non crit vs fvs ~60, why is it so hard to notice that fvs do not rage or turn to double frenzy, which when combined together makes most of the dps

or i dont really know, what people mean with 70-80% sure some guys fvs can be 90% of some studs barb, or opposite way around, but given equal gear, i dont see it near 70-80, rather 50-60.

hecate355
10-17-2010, 08:23 AM
ps. im not advocating one class over other or one build setup over other, everything has its place and justification, we all give up something to gain what we aim for.

Aranticus
10-17-2010, 10:56 AM
We could do a calculation here and for all to quell this problem. Assumption both barb n fvs use min2 greatsword, have access to 2 tod sets, bloodstone, raid buffs. We'll give epic a miss, that we can do another comparison. Also take yugo, titan grip. I left store, house d pots n herzou cookies due to their rarity

Barb str = 18base + 12rage + 2cap + 2tod + 2rage + 4madstone + 6frenzys + 2yugo + 6titan + 5lvl + 4tome + 9tod = 72 str = +31 mod

Damage = 10.5 + 46str + 22pa + 5wpn + 21vicious + 7holy + 8tharnes + 8bard = 127.5

This is just a regular hit from a barb, what's that of a fvs?

Jiipster
10-17-2010, 12:01 PM
Also worth noting is that a BaB15 character swings somewhat slower than a BaB20 character, even with Divine Power running. I don't have any exact numbers (since I haven't done any clincal tests), but it's quite noticable when doing stuff like beating portals in Shroud1.

And yes, my FVS has nowhere near the DPS of my Fighter - especially since he's only bashing for six seconds out of every eight (due to spamming Mass Heal every time it's off cooldown). However, would you rather have a healer that adds an extra 100 DPS, or one that stands around picking his nose?

sirgog
10-17-2010, 12:07 PM
Redoing the numbers with more sustainable effects:


Barb, raid geared but not epic geared (Lit 2 greatsword, +3 tome, etc):

Str - 63 (Titan's Grip not active as it's not sustainable with Madstone, single Madstone) - +39 damage.

FvS has same gear but does not use Madstone Boots or Barbarian Rage, hence 39 - +21 damage. The FvS is better placed to keep Titan's Grip active if they choose to - I assume below that they do not, particularly as it is currently slowing attack speed (for the next day or six).



Damage; assumes no Seeker for ease of calculation. Non-critical hit:

Str: 39/21
Class features (Vicious, Specialisation, Divine Favor): 21/9
Base weapon: 10.5+5 = 15.5
Holy: 7
Shocking Burst, Shock component: 3.5
Lightning Strike: 12 (assumption: the widely believed 2% proc rate is correct, 600 average damage)
Bard: 9
Tharnes: 4/8 (assuming the Barbarian will have aggro 50% of the time and the FvS never will; Tharne's are a DPS 'catchup' item that play this role)
Power Attack: 22/16 (assumption: both classes prioritise damage per hit over To-Hit)
Airship: 2

134 - Barbarian total
102 - FvS total

on a regular hit. FvS is more than 70%, less than 75%.



Against an autocrit target:
Str: 78/42
Class features (Vicious, Specialisation, Divine Favor): 21/9
Base weapon: 31
Holy: 7
Shocking Burst, Shock component: 3.5
Shocking Burst, Burst (on-crit proc) component: 5.5
Shocking Blast, Burst component: 5.5
Shocking Blast, Vorpal strike component: 0.7 (I believe this occurs one attack in twenty against autocrit targets)
Lightning Strike: 12
Bard: 18
Tharnes: 8/8
Power Attack: 44/32
Airship: 2

Barb: 236.2
FvS: 176.2

FvS is right on 75% here.



As for attack speeds - Divine Power increases your attack speed to the attack speed of a BAB 20.

Jiipster
10-17-2010, 01:24 PM
As for attack speeds - Divine Power increases your attack speed to the attack speed of a BAB 20.

Pretty sure it doesn't. I always keep DP running, and I still "feel" like I swing slower. I'll do some actual testing between my FVS and my Fighter in a while.

richieelias27
10-17-2010, 02:32 PM
Pretty sure it doesn't. I always keep DP running, and I still "feel" like I swing slower. I'll do some actual testing between my FVS and my Fighter in a while.

Haste "supposedly" overrides base attack speed and equalizes it.

DrNuegebauer
10-17-2010, 03:21 PM
Pretty sure it doesn't. I always keep DP running, and I still "feel" like I swing slower. I'll do some actual testing between my FVS and my Fighter in a while.

I cast DF more often than DP (the +3/+3 is mostly good)

Let us know how the testing goes - when DP is cast it FEELS like normal attack speed (but often haste is running at those times)

nanobot1994
10-17-2010, 03:38 PM
Pretty sure it doesn't. I always keep DP running, and I still "feel" like I swing slower. I'll do some actual testing between my FVS and my Fighter in a while.

Im fairly certain that DP only increases the attack bonus, not the speed bonus that comes from the natural BAB. Could be wrong though.

dormetheus
10-17-2010, 04:53 PM
It seems like you Barb vs. FvS debaters are forgetting the FB crit multipliers... Unless I'm missing them in your calcs.

Wizzly_Bear
10-17-2010, 05:21 PM
We could do a calculation here and for all to quell this problem. Assumption both barb n fvs use min2 greatsword, have access to 2 tod sets, bloodstone, raid buffs. We'll give epic a miss, that we can do another comparison. Also take yugo, titan grip. I left store, house d pots n herzou cookies due to their rarity

Barb str = 18base + 12rage + 2cap + 2tod + 2rage + 4madstone + 6frenzys + 2yugo + 6titan + 5lvl + 4tome + 9tod = 72 str = +31 mod

Damage = 10.5 + 46str + 22pa + 5wpn + 21vicious + 7holy + 8tharnes + 8bard = 127.5

This is just a regular hit from a barb, what's that of a fvs?
-9 no rage or frenzy
-3 no barb PA enhancements
-1 no barb capstone
-2 assuming no madstone
-21 no vicious
+2 soul weapon
+2 soul weapon enhancements
+3 DF
rougly = 98
98/127.5 = 76.86%

FB crits bring this number down some of course, but I'd be surprised if it took it below 70%

Aranticus
10-17-2010, 05:25 PM
I left them out simple because i can't do math in my head while posting with an iphone

Aranticus
10-17-2010, 05:35 PM
-9 no rage or frenzy
-3 no barb PA enhancements
-1 no barb capstone
-2 assuming no madstone
-21 no vicious
+2 soul weapon
+2 soul weapon enhancements
+3 DF
rougly = 98
98/127.5 = 76.86%

FB crits bring this number down some of course, but I'd be surprised if it took it below 70%

Factor in bloodstone and crits, yes it will fall between 66-70%

Wizzly_Bear
10-17-2010, 05:46 PM
Factor in bloodstone and crits, yes it will fall between 66-70%
bloodstone is for both

AylinIsAwesome
10-17-2010, 06:13 PM
bloodstone is for both

That doesn't seem likely, since that wasn't a crit. Both can wear it, but a FvS is likely going to use a Greatsword or a Scimitar, while a Barb would be using a Greataxe/Falchion or a Khopesh, which Bloodstone favours more.

Wizzly_Bear
10-17-2010, 06:17 PM
That doesn't seem likely, since that wasn't a crit. Both can wear it, but a FvS is likely going to use a Greatsword or a Scimitar, while a Barb would be using a Greataxe/Falchion or a Khopesh, which Bloodstone favours more.
esos

Gladiator_206
10-17-2010, 06:19 PM
have you ever actually played a fvs? trust me...

they can do a heck of a lot ore than heal. and furthermore they SHOULD do more than just heal.

AylinIsAwesome
10-17-2010, 06:35 PM
esos

True, though eSoS won't break all DR.

It's been a while so I can't remember if that's an issue or not.

Aranticus
10-17-2010, 07:18 PM
That doesn't seem likely, since that wasn't a crit. Both can wear it, but a FvS is likely going to use a Greatsword or a Scimitar, while a Barb would be using a Greataxe/Falchion or a Khopesh, which Bloodstone favours more.

we were assuming using the same weapons

Aranticus
10-17-2010, 07:23 PM
bloodstone is for both

yes but for crittable mobs, on a roll of 19-20, the seeker is applied to a greater multiple for the barb than the fvs

Aranticus
10-17-2010, 07:25 PM
have you ever actually played *** a fvs? trust me...

they can do a heck of a lot ore than heal. and furthermore they SHOULD do more than just heal.

this is totally agree but unfortunately that cannot be said of a lot of players. there are some good fvs players on khyber and these are the people that you know your backs would be covered. then there are those that will just bladesworn, melee and expect the caster to repair them

AylinIsAwesome
10-17-2010, 07:29 PM
we were assuming using the same weapons

Guess I missed that.

Besides eSoS though, I'm not sure how many barbs would be using a greatsword over another two-hander.

Aranticus
10-17-2010, 10:42 PM
Guess I missed that.

Besides eSoS though, I'm not sure how many barbs would be using a greatsword over another two-hander.

thats just for comparison sake. ideally most would be using the falchion to make full use of the crits. however, the assumption is the mob does not have fortification which is not totally true in ddo. in non crittable situations, the % difference will get smaller. if you noticed, most of the dps classes have some of their bonuses geared towards crits

kensai: seeker bonuses, + crit range
FB barb: + crit multiplier
assassin: + SA

AylinIsAwesome
10-17-2010, 10:51 PM
thats just for comparison sake. ideally most would be using the falchion to make full use of the crits. however, the assumption is the mob does not have fortification which is not totally true in ddo. in non crittable situations, the % difference will get smaller. if you noticed, most of the dps classes have some of their bonuses geared towards crits

kensai: seeker bonuses, + crit range
FB barb: + crit multiplier
assassin: + SA

I have noticed, thanks.

I have also noticed that different numbers are given for different fortification values, 0%, 50% and 100% being the most common it seems. I like to also add in 25% just so I can see the difference there.

Aranticus
10-17-2010, 10:54 PM
I have noticed, thanks.

I have also noticed that different numbers are given for different fortification values, 0%, 50% and 100% being the most common it seems. I like to also add in 25% just so I can see the difference there.

i cant say i have seen 25% fort on mobs before

AylinIsAwesome
10-17-2010, 10:56 PM
i cant say i have seen 25% fort on mobs before

I believe just on Warforged mobs, like the ones in the VON chain. Perhaps I'm wrong about that. Would be less math I have to do later.

TigrisMorte
10-17-2010, 11:29 PM
Thanks.
If you want the FVS to stop swinging and watch your gimp meter, your doing it wrong.

My FVS saves more gimps by killing the "big bad monster" hurting "little baby boo" during the 6 second cool down from the first heal of their "8 con master of the world with no fort.".

TigrisMorte
10-17-2010, 11:38 PM
rougly = 98
98/127.5 = 76.86%
FB crits bring this number down some of course, but I'd be surprised if it took it below 70%
Actually the one hit ding on your barb ends the discussion.

I hope you enjoyed all the min/max calculations you made while you wait for 45 min. for healer to cover the mistake in maxing your DPS on paper at the expense of actually being able to stay in the combat.

The cool down means the FVS, or cleric or bard or ranger or paladin or wand whip or wiz on WF, can't out heal all mistakes.

Or as is oft posted, "can't heal stupid."

efreet5
10-17-2010, 11:54 PM
Actually the one hit ding on your barb ends the discussion.

I hope you enjoyed all the min/max calculations you made while you wait for 45 min. for healer to cover the mistake in maxing your DPS on paper at the expense of actually being able to stay in the combat.

The cool down means the FVS, or cleric or bard or ranger or paladin or wand whip or wiz on WF, can't out heal all mistakes.

Or as is oft posted, "can't heal stupid."

This is incorrect. A truly geared out Barb will have Silver Flame pots and can chug them at will, which often heals the barbarian for anywhere from 250-400+ pts of damage depending on how much healing amp is involved. With their super high maintainable str scores and ridiculous hps barbarians can utilize these pots and not worry about the negatives. -100 hps to a barb is nothing. The penalty to saves can hurt, but a few buffs like FoM and Protection from Evil will prevent just about anything that you'd have to worry about anyway. So, while your FvS might be waiting for the barbarian to die because he "can't heal himself," the truly geared out barbarian will be killing epic mobs wondering *** you're doing piking in the back trying to look smug. These pots aren't for all occasions, but there is no reason an epically equipped barb shouldn't have them and use them.

AylinIsAwesome
10-17-2010, 11:57 PM
Actually the one hit ding on your barb ends the discussion.

I hope you enjoyed all the min/max calculations you made while you wait for 45 min. for healer to cover the mistake in maxing your DPS on paper at the expense of actually being able to stay in the combat.

The cool down means the FVS, or cleric or bard or ranger or paladin or wand whip or wiz on WF, can't out heal all mistakes.

Or as is oft posted, "can't heal stupid."

There are bad players (like the OP) who think that FvS or Clerics can't DPS.

And then there are equally bad players who think no melee can do anything unless their FvS or Cleric is there to save them.

DMCain
10-17-2010, 11:59 PM
What a bizarre conversation..

Baranor
10-18-2010, 12:15 AM
What a bizarre conversation..

brother you took the words right out of my mouth

its official, everyone TR ur melees into fvs. there is no other class anymore

Tom318
10-18-2010, 12:23 AM
brother you took the words right out of my mouth

its official, everyone TR ur melees into fvs. there is no other class anymore

That's the way the game is going lol. Sooner or later there will be not be much need for any class other than Barb (f2p) or FvS (p2p) lol :)

Wizzly_Bear
10-18-2010, 05:34 AM
Actually the one hit ding on your barb ends the discussion.

I hope you enjoyed all the min/max calculations you made while you wait for 45 min. for healer to cover the mistake in maxing your DPS on paper at the expense of actually being able to stay in the combat.

The cool down means the FVS, or cleric or bard or ranger or paladin or wand whip or wiz on WF, can't out heal all mistakes.

Or as is oft posted, "can't heal stupid."
I think you have me confused for someone else, and so I shan't ding you just yet ;)

blitzschlag
10-18-2010, 05:48 AM
Actually the one hit ding on your barb ends the discussion.

I hope you enjoyed all the min/max calculations you made while you wait for 45 min. for healer to cover the mistake in maxing your DPS on paper at the expense of actually being able to stay in the combat.

The cool down means the FVS, or cleric or bard or ranger or paladin or wand whip or wiz on WF, can't out heal all mistakes.

Or as is oft posted, "can't heal stupid."

you catch yourself posting bollocks often lately?

sirgog
10-18-2010, 06:49 AM
brother you took the words right out of my mouth

its official, everyone TR ur melees into fvs. there is no other class anymore

Barbarians have their place too.

One or two of them speeds up the killing in a 1 bard, 3 FvS group.

hecate355
10-18-2010, 08:02 AM
have you ever actually played a fvs? trust me...

they can do a heck of a lot ore than heal. and furthermore they SHOULD do more than just heal.

yes i have, and i never said they are healbots

hecate355
10-18-2010, 08:20 AM
Actually the one hit ding on your barb ends the discussion.

I hope you enjoyed all the min/max calculations you made while you wait for 45 min. for healer to cover the mistake in maxing your DPS on paper at the expense of actually being able to stay in the combat.

The cool down means the FVS, or cleric or bard or ranger or paladin or wand whip or wiz on WF, can't out heal all mistakes.

Or as is oft posted, "can't heal stupid."

Mistake on barb for maxing dps? :D what else should i max then, healing capabilities?

You arent really saying that everyone should look like same green jelly none being high dps, none getting hit more than others, no1 having higher ac. wizard, rogue, barb and cleric happily together whipping sticks at bosses, all healing themselves in process.

I simply dont get the relevance, yes i do enjoy when dps chars do dps, healers heal, bards sing, rogues disable traps if needed. its not my mindset, i know they can also do other things, some of which arent efficent enough in every situation.

Ironically its most likely same people who in one situation call barbs mana sponges, and in other situation limit people joining lfm cause they think they arent enough dps, making quests long and causing the very same healers use potions.

hecate355
10-18-2010, 09:03 AM
Redoing the numbers with more sustainable effects:


Barb, raid geared but not epic geared (Lit 2 greatsword, +3 tome, etc):

Str - 63 (Titan's Grip not active as it's not sustainable with Madstone, single Madstone) - +39 damage.

FvS has same gear but does not use Madstone Boots or Barbarian Rage, hence 39 - +21 damage. The FvS is better placed to keep Titan's Grip active if they choose to - I assume below that they do not, particularly as it is currently slowing attack speed (for the next day or six).



Damage; assumes no Seeker for ease of calculation. Non-critical hit:

Str: 39/21
Class features (Vicious, Specialisation, Divine Favor): 21/9
Base weapon: 10.5+5 = 15.5
Holy: 7
Shocking Burst, Shock component: 3.5
Lightning Strike: 12 (assumption: the widely believed 2% proc rate is correct, 600 average damage)
Bard: 9
Tharnes: 4/8 (assuming the Barbarian will have aggro 50% of the time and the FvS never will; Tharne's are a DPS 'catchup' item that play this role)
Power Attack: 22/16 (assumption: both classes prioritise damage per hit over To-Hit)
Airship: 2

134 - Barbarian total
102 - FvS total

on a regular hit. FvS is more than 70%, less than 75%.



Against an autocrit target:
Str: 78/42
Class features (Vicious, Specialisation, Divine Favor): 21/9
Base weapon: 31
Holy: 7
Shocking Burst, Shock component: 3.5
Shocking Burst, Burst (on-crit proc) component: 5.5
Shocking Blast, Burst component: 5.5
Shocking Blast, Vorpal strike component: 0.7 (I believe this occurs one attack in twenty against autocrit targets)
Lightning Strike: 12
Bard: 18
Tharnes: 8/8
Power Attack: 44/32
Airship: 2

Barb: 236.2
FvS: 176.2

FvS is right on 75% here.



As for attack speeds - Divine Power increases your attack speed to the attack speed of a BAB 20.

+40 to hit 3d6 +55 ;+4d6+2d6 vicious on barb roughly 9+55+12+6=81 average damage non crit per hit befor weapon effects just assuming blank green steel greataxe

+32 to hit 3d6 +41 on fvs lord of blades with gs greatsword average 9+41=50 befor weapon effects

so 50 from 81 damage is ~61.7% per swing on non crit befor weapon effects

Those arent calculations, they are actual numbers on my dwarf barb vs wf fvs

barb being raged, double frenzied, both having PA on and enhancements taken, fvs stands at 28 str with +1 tome vs barb at 51 str with +2 tome, didnt even drink rage pot, just the chars built in abilities. Fvs simply having +6 str item, +1 tome, divine favor+divine power.

This was what i based my claim that damage difference is bigger than fvs being 70+% of barb, of course weapon effects, equipment thats where things start shifting depending on situation, assumptions, equipment, fort... and yada yada.

EDIT: im not saying mine is better level of comparsion, but everything that follows is rather hard to compare based on assumptions on what is equal and what isnt.

sirgog
10-18-2010, 09:14 AM
+40 to hit 3d6 +55 ;+4d6+2d6 vicious on barb roughly 9+55+12+6=81 average damage non crit per hit befor weapon effects just assuming blank green steel greataxe

+32 to hit 3d6 +41 on fvs lord of blades with gs greatsword average 9+41=50 befor weapon effects

so 50 from 81 damage is ~61.7% per swing on non crit befor weapon effects

Those arent calculations, they are actual numbers on my dwarf barb vs wf fvs

barb being raged, double frenzied, both having PA on and enhancements taken, fvs stands at 28 str with +1 tome vs barb at 51 str with +2 tome, didnt even drink rage pot, just the chars built in abilities. Fvs simply having +6 str item, +1 tome, divine favor+divine power.

This was what i based my claim that damage difference is bigger than fvs being 70+% of barb, of course weapon effects, equipment thats where things start shifting depending on situation, assumptions, equipment, fort... and yada yada.

Weapon effects *massively* close the gap.

Add the 7 from Holy, 12 from Lightning Strike, ~6 from Shocking Burst and Blast and some for Tharne's, and you'll see the Barb is still ~30 damage per swing ahead, but 30 damage isn't 40% ahead any more, it's closer to 25% ahead.

Aranticus
10-18-2010, 09:23 AM
Weapon effects *massively* close the gap.

Add the 7 from Holy, 12 from Lightning Strike, ~6 from Shocking Burst and Blast and some for Tharne's, and you'll see the Barb is still ~30 damage per swing ahead, but 30 damage isn't 40% ahead any more, it's closer to 25% ahead.

And frenzy will bring it back down

Tumarek
10-18-2010, 09:27 AM
I just which they would add a few more favored TWF weapon choices so WF wouldnt be the only really good melee choice for melee FvS.

sirgog
10-18-2010, 10:04 AM
And frenzy will bring it back down

Frenzy was included in that 30.

Consumer
10-18-2010, 10:09 AM
Weapon effects *massively* close the gap.

Add the 7 from Holy, 12 from Lightning Strike, ~6 from Shocking Burst and Blast and some for Tharne's, and you'll see the Barb is still ~30 damage per swing ahead, but 30 damage isn't 40% ahead any more, it's closer to 25% ahead.

Why would this Barb gimp itself by not going TWF and taking a 2 level splash?

sirgog
10-18-2010, 10:22 AM
Why would this Barb gimp itself by not going TWF and taking a 2 level splash?

The FvS in question could equally be an elf with dual scimitars; we are comparing the easiest to compare and most common builds.

Aranticus
10-18-2010, 10:51 AM
Frenzy was included in that 30.

In the autocrit situation, frenzy will bring the % down to about 68%

hecate355
10-18-2010, 11:10 AM
i am having impression than any difference that comes after with weapon effects and all that is rather progressive than regressive, in terms of being ahead or behind in damage. And no i probably cant back it up with number crunching, im not that good at it.

Zachski
10-18-2010, 11:35 AM
In the autocrit situation, frenzy will bring the % down to about 68%

And enemies with 100% fort will bring the % even higher.

Your point?

Polarkin
10-18-2010, 01:46 PM
My personal observations from playing daily with a Barb and a Paladin

me: WF FVS
Str 36 (42 with rage/yugo/ship)
wpn: eSoS

Barb: FB
Str: 60+ pretty much all the time
wpn: eSoS

Pally: KotC
Str: 32 (38 with rage/yugo/ship)
wpn: eSoS

Against evil outsiders & pitfiends(dr: silver/good) I am probably 60-65% of
the barb and pallies individual DPS

Against non EO's or anything I break DR with adamantine/good I am about
75-80% pally dps and about 65% barb dps

my avg hit: 70 +/-5
my avg crit: 225 +/-15
to hit: 52 self buffed with PA on (full WF PA enhancements)

Comparison to my 18/1/1 exploiter ranger TWF w/ dual MinII Khopesh str34(40 r/y/ship)
on same mobs in same quests:
65-70% of ranger dps if enemy is ranger FE
75-80% of ranger dps if enemy is not FE

From personal observations, but not extensive play time with one specific comparably equipped, I would expect Fighters, Monks, and Rogues to generally be in the middle of the extremes

Mellkor
10-18-2010, 04:33 PM
LOL.

Listen to Sirgog folks, I agree with him 100%.

shdrex63
10-18-2010, 04:52 PM
You (the OP) should actually stop telling people how to play their toons and try to optimise your own gameplay. Also, I know it is the internet but can you actually think enough to formulate pertinent sentences (Your title)? Just so you dont give the impression you went to our hunter-gatherer origins and supressed all thought processes. (In life you never constantly succeed. The "loosers" cry their failures and deflect blame on others, the "winners" learn from each failure and move on)

Aranticus
10-18-2010, 05:16 PM
And enemies with 100% fort will bring the % even higher.

Your point?

The numbers with which sirgog used did not include the frenzy crits on 19-20. That is a whole lot of dps not counted. As for 100% fort situations, I've qualifed on page 3, if you actually read it, that the % difference between barb and fvs will be smaller

TigrisMorte
10-18-2010, 05:41 PM
This is incorrect. A truly geared out Barb will have Silver Flame pots and can chug them at will, which often heals the barbarian for anywhere from 250-400+ pts of damage depending on how much healing amp is involved. With their super high maintainable str scores and ridiculous hps barbarians can utilize these pots and not worry about the negatives. -100 hps to a barb is nothing. The penalty to saves can hurt, but a few buffs like FoM and Protection from Evil will prevent just about anything that you'd have to worry about anyway. So, while your FvS might be waiting for the barbarian to die because he "can't heal himself," the truly geared out barbarian will be killing epic mobs wondering *** you're doing piking in the back trying to look smug. These pots aren't for all occasions, but there is no reason an epically equipped barb shouldn't have them and use them.
this barb isn't waiting for a healer as they don't need one. they put thought into their character and did not min/max "everything into str, con is a dump stat." so, while I agree with your statement, it has no relationship to mine.

TigrisMorte
10-18-2010, 05:49 PM
There are bad players (like the OP) who think that FvS or Clerics can't DPS.

And then there are equally bad players who think no melee can do anything unless their FvS or Cleric is there to save them.
The post was all about how a FVS is not there to keep the barb in. A good barb does not need the "FVS or Cleric" to save them. If a barb need a "healer" watching their bar, they are doing it wrong. Everyone can use a heal now and then but no one should require a dedicated "healer".
read the thread, consider the quote in the post, then read the post. It shall make more sense.

Falith12
10-18-2010, 05:55 PM
You should carry your own pots for buff's etc. my capped FVS does not HEAL STUPID, ZERGERS are on their own, I join parties as a healer or melee to get the job done and reach the end goal, WE are not your personel babysitters, same as Clerics.

+1 and seconded. I have both a clericmost/fighter one and a FvS and the only thing i'm told to do is healm while they go getting massive damage on themselves, expecting me to heal them with my low spell point (860 @ Cleric lvl 12) spell point wapriest built, then whine at me when they die horribly. Clerics are meant to be more than healbots if anyone ever read the description: Clerics can heal and deal damage in equal measure.

maddmatt70
10-18-2010, 06:00 PM
If you think you are an adequate replacement for a melee think again. You had better be able to heal as well as fight otherwise you are piking. There are many people out there who can not pull off both fighting and healing especially at the end game.

TigrisMorte
10-18-2010, 06:03 PM
Mistake on barb for maxing dps? :D what else should i max then, healing capabilities?

You arent really saying that everyone should look like same green jelly none being high dps, none getting hit more than others, no1 having higher ac. wizard, rogue, barb and cleric happily together whipping sticks at bosses, all healing themselves in process.

I simply dont get the relevance, yes i do enjoy when dps chars do dps, healers heal, bards sing, rogues disable traps if needed. its not my mindset, i know they can also do other things, some of which arent efficent enough in every situation.

Ironically its most likely same people who in one situation call barbs mana sponges, and in other situation limit people joining lfm cause they think they arent enough dps, making quests long and causing the very same healers use potions.
No, not healing, Constitution. See Max is short for maximum. and you don't get max with moderation. So to Max DPS everything goes into Strength, then Dex for the occasional ranged. Yes, I understand many think STR and CON. But I have seen the 8 con Barb. So, yes, I am exaggerating. However the OP was for the FVS to, " Put down your weapons and stop ruining gimping shroud runs (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=280127) put down the sword". So, my point is that if they need this, the problem is not the FVS. If your barb can't stay up with the FVS throwing heals while fighting, push "C" and "I" to find out why.

AylinIsAwesome
10-18-2010, 06:05 PM
The post was all about how a FVS is not there to keep the barb in. A good barb does not need the "FVS or Cleric" to save them. If a barb need a "healer" watching their bar, they are doing it wrong. Everyone can use a heal now and then but no one should require a dedicated "healer".
read the thread, consider the quote in the post, then read the post. It shall make more sense.

Your post:


Actually the one hit ding on your barb ends the discussion.

I hope you enjoyed all the min/max calculations you made while you wait for 45 min. for healer to cover the mistake in maxing your DPS on paper at the expense of actually being able to stay in the combat.

The cool down means the FVS, or cleric or bard or ranger or paladin or wand whip or wiz on WF, can't out heal all mistakes.

Or as is oft posted, "can't heal stupid."


Your post is an attack on everyone involved in attempting to compare the DPS between a FvS and a Barbarian by claiming that they had to "wait 45 minutes for a healer". When you take a look at some of the players who were making the DPS comparisons (even though I may not always agree or get along with them, I still respect their input and contributions) it becomes obvious you were simply ranting and talking out your ***. I guess you're angry that another class might deal more DPS than your FvS, so in an effort to make yourself feel better about it, you started attacking other players. Trying to claim it was anything other than a silly rant is kind of ridiculous.

Merlocke
10-18-2010, 06:11 PM
This thread has all kinds of potential.

I agree.

Falith12
10-18-2010, 06:16 PM
If you think you are an adequate replacement for a melee think again. You had better be able to heal as well as fight otherwise you are piking. There are many people out there who can not pull off both fighting and healing especially at the end game.

I was not saying i don't heal, i was saying that not all clerics, especially more melee aimed clerics are rolled with the sole in tention of "I'm going to spend my 20 lvls running around and healing everybody". There are other paths to take, and that's what makes this a greate game, the customization.

sirgog
10-19-2010, 07:48 AM
The numbers with which sirgog used did not include the frenzy crits on 19-20. That is a whole lot of dps not counted. As for 100% fort situations, I've qualifed on page 3, if you actually read it, that the % difference between barb and fvs will be smaller

That's true, forgot about that extra damage, and against 0% Fort targets, it puts the Bbn further ahead than my earlier calculations.

Jiipster
10-19-2010, 07:56 AM
If you think you are an adequate replacement for a melee think again. You had better be able to heal as well as fight otherwise you are piking. There are many people out there who can not pull off both fighting and healing especially at the end game.

I consider my 36-unbuffed STR WF FVS my main build, and I agree with this 100%.

hecate355
10-19-2010, 08:09 AM
this barb isn't waiting for a healer as they don't need one. they put thought into their character and did not min/max "everything into str, con is a dump stat." so, while I agree with your statement, it has no relationship to mine.

people even do stuff like that? doesent make sense to me, high con is very barbarian to my eyes and hps are one of few things that separates barb from other classes

hecate355
10-19-2010, 08:12 AM
No, not healing, Constitution. See Max is short for maximum. and you don't get max with moderation. So to Max DPS everything goes into Strength, then Dex for the occasional ranged. Yes, I understand many think STR and CON. But I have seen the 8 con Barb. So, yes, I am exaggerating. However the OP was for the FVS to, " Put down your weapons and stop ruining gimping shroud runs (http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=280127) put down the sword". So, my point is that if they need this, the problem is not the FVS. If your barb can't stay up with the FVS throwing heals while fighting, push "C" and "I" to find out why.

oh i see, i guess im not noob enough to even suspect some1 doing barb with dump con

sirgog
10-19-2010, 08:22 AM
If you think you are an adequate replacement for a melee think again. You had better be able to heal as well as fight otherwise you are piking. There are many people out there who can not pull off both fighting and healing especially at the end game.

Doing 16000 melee damage to Harry in one pass (Shroud geared) is not piking. (Decent Barbs do ~21k if Shroud geared, ~25k if Epic geared, the FvS can improve above 16k with epic gear too).

Especially when, if the battle goes totally sour for some reason (horrendous lag, etc), you can just quaff pots and solo the Fiend.

Falith12
10-19-2010, 11:04 AM
especially if your build is melee oriented, not caster. it's whats called minor 3/4 melle, 1/4 heals, very survivable

hermespan
10-19-2010, 01:04 PM
Thanks.

I was in 5 shroud failures yesterday with people I've never run with before. Agree...

Healers dying with half a mana bar left on part 4? What is that?

How does a barbarian with 800 HP, who stays on Harry the way he's supposed to die with 2 healers in the group? Not my character, but I know the guy and he's a good player/builder, triple TR with a good build.

I got into my usual group with ONE healer after a few hours of torture and it was easy as cake. 18 second portals were a welcome relief after the 1:30 portals of those other groups. part 2 in under 5 minutes. part 3 in under 5 minutes. part 4 in 3 minutes. part 5 in under 5 minutes.

Tips:

Research the quest. http://ddowiki.com/page/The_Shroud


Portals: holy burst/anarchic/true chaos of pure good/maiming(if you have IC and X3 or better)/Greater construct bane(best) ,or mineral II. Portals are lawful evil constructs(like the marut). Choose your damage type accordingly.

Harry(the main boss): holy burst and/or metalline or silver/pure good or outsider bane or mineral II. Holy burst silver or metalline of greater evil/lawful outsider bane is the best non min II weapon for this job. Good luck finding one though. Harry is a lawful evil outsider. evil or lawful outsider bane works as the bane.

bare minimum required to pass DR is silver or metalline AND holy or good. one without the other doesn't cut it.

Entry level portal and harry/sully beaters are level 14 and can often be had for under 100k. There's no excuse that works for me. Run the shroud flagging quests over and over til you have the ingredients for your GS blanks. Sell all the useless stuff you pick up. Save your money. Prepare for shroud.

If you don't have this stuff, buy it before you try to run another one, preferably with weapon types you are specialized in, but anything is better than the wrong damage types. It's not fair to everyone else. A shroud should take half an hour tops. If we're on part 4 and an hour into it, most people aren't doing what they are supposed to.

During part 1 if the group is on one portal, and you are standing there by yourself at a portal, YOU ARE AT THE WRONG ONE. I don't care how your guild does it. Follow the group. A monkey could do this. The only exception is if you are top tier dps and you are able to kill a portal nearly as fast as the rest of the group.

Use your abilities that increase dps and attack speed. If you have a haste boost, why don't you use it? kensai? Why aren't you powering up? Barbarians? Rage yourself. Paladins, why aren't you using smite? If you have cooldowns left and they don't regen (like smite regens) you are SLACKING. Try carrying your weight.

Casters:
Fit rage, GH, Wall of Fire, Wail of the Banshee, Finger of death, Waves of exhaustion, Otto's sphere of dancing

Don't have them? GET THEM. This stuff can make the difference between chaos or a smooth raid.

Rage and GH can make portals (and harry) go down in half the time they do without. Do you really want to hang out in the shroud all night? Buff the melees. Don't do it for them, do it for yourself. You want to finish before hell freezes over right?

Stay one portal ahead of group in part 1. Use wail to take the group of aggro down at each portal, then finger anything that saves. Melee should be beating portals down, not protecting themselves. A caster should have the highest kill count in a shroud. If you don't between the two of you, you aren't doing what it takes to make the raid run smoothly.

In part 2 immediately run to south central and lay down some extended disco balls. Once that's done and the trash is dead, there's a crystal that needs to go down at the same time as the bosses. As soon as the trash is killed and someone pulls the bosses, go to where the bosses were and light up some extended firewalls underneath the crystal. As soon as the last boss is dead, the crystal's force field dies and it will pop.

Just go do it. Don't wait for someone to assign it to you. There's nothing worse than the party doing a great job of killing the bosses only to find out that no one was on the crystal. >facepalm<

In part 4, disco balls where the party forms up.

In part 5 buff then refill. Cold spells on harry.



Rangers:
Cast jump on the party after you buff for part 1. The quickest way to get to the next portal is a straight line. You need jump for that. FoM people before part 2 and FoM/resist the kiter in part 5 after everyone gets up.

Melee:
For heaven's sake, take at least 2 healing amp enhancements so group heals keep you up during boss beats. It's THREE enhancement points. There is no better way to spend 3 enhancement points, except maybe for hit points.

The bare minimum HP you need to have if you are melee (including AAs, more on this later) is 350, and that's the really low bare minimum. You should be at 400+ and doing everything you can to improve it. If you are sitting at 290 self buffed, fix your build and get the gear you need. No heavy fort on a melee(everyone should have this but it's critical for melee)? Don't come back til you have it, seriously. You won't make it in raids. It's level 11 gear for crying out loud.

Rangers, if you have 350+ hp like you should, you need to be on harry with m/pg meleeing him. Put the bow down unless manyshot is off cooldown. Don't be a sissy. Max out your dps contribution and don't gimp the party because it's your "preferred playstyle". Instead, how about helping get the job done. Capice? You have twf even as an AA. It does more dps than your bow does unless manyshot is running. You also need harry beaters. Get them. I'm telling you this for your own good. You'll end up on DNG lists of the elite players if you don't. Make your own choice.

Everyone:
Keep the pets in your pocket until part 4. I've seen pets ruin more shroud part 2 than I care to remember, including 2 yesterday. They do more harm than good. If the group is fast, they'll last into part 2, and ruin it. They aren't welcome and they smeg everyone off. DO NOT DEPLOY THEM. They run after the bosses and keep them from south central where they need to be which results in bosses dying prematurely, healers running out of mana, and party wipes.

Seriously, leave them in your pocket.


I don't want to sound like a jerk, but this is the stuff I saw that caused the 5 shroud wipes I was in yesterday.
Not enough dps, casters not doing what they were supposed to and stupid pets.

Healer:
I don't know any strategy. I've played casters and twf melee in raids. Anyone care to help out here?
The problem I saw was the guy they targeted for mass heals, kept backing out of fight and getting everyone killed.

Carpone
10-19-2010, 02:02 PM
Shroud is not a litmus test for anything. There's a 17 fvs/2 monk/1 fighter intimitank in our guild who not only kept Harry intimidated in part 4 to maximize SA damage, but solo healed to completion. On elite.

Raise the bar and find better people to play with.

Yagi
10-25-2010, 05:21 PM
? Why wouldnt I melee Harry in a pug normal? I can heal and melee Np. When I cant, I step back. *I* know my limits, worry about your own.
I'm not some kind of scripted AI, I can see whats going on and what needs to be done in any given situation.