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SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 11:56 AM
Crafting suggestion

I know this is highly unlikely to be implemented, but I was thinking how cool it would be to craft your own weapons. Materials to craft weapons could come from breaking down existing weapons in the Stone of Change. Upgrading weapons could also be done in the Stone of Change.

Part I (Weapon Crafting!)

At present weapons are given a simple formula to determine their properties:

<Bonus> <Prefix> <Material> Base Weapon Type <"of" Suffix>
+2 Wounding Adamantine Shortsword of Puncturing

A weapon can have 1 bonus, 1 material, 1 prefix and 1 suffix.

By placing this item in the Stone of Change with an appropriate amount of Shards (See Recipes Below) to breakdown the item (it is destroyed in the process), one could pull one of the enhancement effects from a weapon at random. Destroying (breaking down) in the Stone of Change the above example could result in a single “rune” pulled such as:


One of:
+2 Rune <Bonus>
Wounding Rune <Prefix>
Adamantine Rune <Material>
Puncturing Rune <"of" Suffix>
Shortsword <Base Weapon Type> (basically a blank, if you happen to like the weapons “model”)

Once you have the rune, and another weapon you’d like to apply it to, you place the rune, the weapon and an appropriate amount of Shards (See Recipes Below) into the Stone of Change and the rune’d effect would be applied to the weapon (or override the existing enhancement). The ML of the item would be adjusted in regards to the ML of the varying enhancement properties ((base price modifier * 2) - 2). It may be likely to craft an item that is beyond character level, and therefore unequippable. Once augmented, these items would then be bound to character (much like other rituals do, or perhaps a requirement for the ritual would be that it is already bound). Any existing enhancement would be overridden by the new enhancement, so you could not make a Vorpal Holy Burst Metalline Smiting Pure Good weapon for example.

In this example, let's say we pulled the Wounding Rune. I have a +5 Rapier of puncturing, and I'd like to add wounding to it. I simply add my +5 Rapier of Puncturing, the Wounding Rune, and some Dragonshards (See Recipes Below), to the stone of change, and out comes my new +5 Wounding Rapier of Puncturing!


Weapon breakdown Ritual (Recipe):
((<prefix> Siberys Dragonshard * Item ML) / 2)

Item ML 1-4: Flawed prefix
Item ML 5-8 Imperfect prefix
Item ML 9-12 Normal prefix
Item ML 13-16 Exceptional prefix
Item ML 17-20 Flawless prefix

Weapon Crafting Ritual (Recipe):
(<prefix> Siberys Dragonshard * Crafted Item ML)

Item ML 1-4 Flawed prefix
Item ML 5-8 Imperfect prefix
Item ML 9-12 Normal prefix
Item ML 13-16 Exceptional prefix
Item ML 17-20 Flawless prefix

Runes could be bought/sold on the AH, allowing players to build their dream “non-named” weapon. Free market would determine value. ;) Only weaponry that are currently possible within the rules of the current random weapon generator would be possible as well.

As you level up, you can upgrade your weapons with varying properties as you become level appropriate to wield them. If +2 isn’t cutting it anymore since you grabbed that latest level of PA, simply purchase a +5 rune, or break down some other weapons to find a +5 rune, and apply it to your weapon. Have a weapon you love, but it doesn’t bypass DR for the content you’re running, add a metalline or pure good rune!

I think it would add a whole new dynamic to the game, give us some other crafting options, reduce the amount of vendor trash in the game, reduce the influx of gold attained via vendor trash (a form of gold sink), add value to randomly generated yet sometimes useless items, and generally give us something to have fun with. It would also give incentive to run specific level quests in an attempt to pull specific level runes. The brokers would be extremely useful, as you'd shop to find weapons with your preferred enhancements, to break down (another gold sink).

I for one, would enjoy breaking down, and crafting my ideal weapons, and would like have bags full of them. :)

Part II (Armor Crafting!)

Armor Forumla (similar to weapon formula)

<Bonus> <Prefix> <Material> Base Armor Type <"of" Suffix [Suffix Modifier]>
+2 Deathblock Mithral Full Plate of Spell Resistance

Someone in this thread mentioned how this concept could apply to armor crafting as well. And it made me think about all the armor customization threads and suggestions we've had on these forums. This could very well be the solution to that as well.

Let's say you looted a useless +1 Mobile Flametouched Iron Half Plate of Greater Shadow, but it LOOKS COOL! So you'd like to wear it, but not for it's properties. Rebuild it! Use the Stone of Change and turn that awesome looking but utterly useless armor into something worthy of the hero you are. :)

I think this addresses some of the concerns players have in regards to armor customization and visualization. We could finally look the way we want, instead of the way we're forced to.

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 12:10 PM
Given the opportunity, what runes would you collect, and what weapon would you build?

MysteryNotes
10-15-2010, 12:16 PM
Given the opportunity, what runes would you collect, and what weapon would you build?

Holy Silver GEOB
Anarchic Burst Adamantine of Smiting
Anarchic Burst Adamantine of GCB
Holy Burst Maul of Stunning +10/Warhammer
Holy Burst Silver of Greater Undead Bane(For those pesky vampires)
Axiomatic Burst Cold Iron of GEOB(For when they add in high level demon content :p/DQ)

hermespan
10-15-2010, 12:17 PM
Sword of Pwnage:
+5 vorpal anarchic holy burst metalline khopesh of superior evil outsider bane.

I know the prefixes don't work but that's why it's the Sword of Pwnage

sacredguyver
10-15-2010, 12:20 PM
"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SINIBYTE again." :(

The grand question would be: "How does this apply to handwraps?" Could this be our workaround to getting greensteel handwraps? :D

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 12:27 PM
Sword of Pwnage:
+5 vorpal anarchic holy burst metalline khopesh of superior evil outsider bane.

I know the prefixes don't work but that's why it's the Sword of Pwnage

That would be pretty awesome, but the Stone of Change would spit it all back at you. ;) I'm actually curious to see what "viable" weapons could be attained to see if this would be overpowering in anyway, or if everyone would simply be running around with the same weapons.

barabel
10-15-2010, 12:31 PM
I like the general idea.

I think any weapon that gets modified like this should be Bound and Attuned and I think the Runes should be limited to a subset of the available prefixes/suffixes for balancing reasons.

Namely no Power 5s and No Stat Damagers.

You could still build some really nice weapons with these restrictions and it preserves the quality of some weapons out there.

dkyle
10-15-2010, 12:33 PM
They'd have to be very careful about rates of runes gotten. After all, a Holy Silver of GEOB is much more powerful than a MinII in most of the content you'd want a MinII for. So, it has to much more expensive.

It would be difficult to balance, as your runes could come from any content, and could be farmed continuously, whereas MinIIs only come from the Shroud (well, a little from Amrath) and there's a timer/chest-ransack involved.

What they'd probably have to do is assign each prefix a suffix a value (GEOB > Silver > Maiming > Deception, etc.), and set the expected rune droprate based on the value of the rune, and the ML of the item being chewed up. After all, an ML 18 GEOB weapon is harder to get than an ML 8.

Spoonwelder
10-15-2010, 12:33 PM
Although I like the idea from a 'man that would make this game less grindy' point of view I can also see some flaws......

First - you'd need to build restriction lists for different combinations (ie. no banishing on slashing or puncturing on blunt.....etc.....)

Second - it would almost kill the market for weapons on the AH, since any weapon with decent properties would be broken down and sold for the superior parts.

Finally, it would allow some overpowered combos that may not exist in the loot tables exactly because they are unbalancing or are so rare as to be non-entities (ie. +5 Metalline Smiter of Greater Contstruct Bane or +5 Metalline Banisher of Pure Good). I guess that could be overcome by making those possible combinations not useable due to ML's being calculated that would set it over 20.

One last note - I kind of like trying to hunt down decent weapons and looking for new different combinations for my weapons. It's part of the fun in the game. This idea could eliminate that surprise/fun element...I am on the fence on this one but pos rep for coming up with (as far as I know) a new and possibly workable idea for the game.

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 12:46 PM
They'd have to be very careful about rates of runes gotten. After all, a Holy Silver of GEOB is much more powerful than a MinII in most of the content you'd want a MinII for. So, it has to much more expensive.

It would be difficult to balance, as your runes could come from any content, and could be farmed continuously, whereas MinIIs only come from the Shroud (well, a little from Amrath) and there's a timer/chest-ransack involved.

What they'd probably have to do is assign each prefix a suffix a value (GEOB > Silver > Maiming > Deception, etc.), and set the expected rune droprate based on the value of the rune, and the ML of the item being chewed up. After all, an ML 18 GEOB weapon is harder to get than an ML 8.

I agree, it would have to be a costly endeavor to craft your own dream weapon. Both the breakdown and construction of a weapon should cost an appropriate number of Dragonshards. Breakdowns should cost less than the crafting due to the random nature. Although if you are looking for a +5 enhancement you could simply breakdown a simple ML12 (I think) +5 Greatsword with no other modifiers, and pull the exact rune you'd want.

To add a +5 enhancement modifier would cost 5 Dragonshards (+5 ML would be 5 Dragonshards). This would prohibit people from simply destroying and crafting everything in sight, and would retain some value for randomly generated weaponry. Adding Keen to a weapon for example would cost 1 Dragonshard.

dkyle
10-15-2010, 12:55 PM
To add a +5 enhancement modifier would cost 5 Dragonshards (+5 ML would be 5 Dragonshards).

What kind of Dragonshard?

Also, strictly scaling by ML the cost to apply/chance to get runes wouldn't make sense. A GEOB rune should cost more than a +5 enhancement rune. And much more than a Greater Human Bane. A Silver rune should cost more than a Smiting rune.

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 12:58 PM
Although I like the idea from a 'man that would make this game less grindy' point of view I can also see some flaws......

First - you'd need to build restriction lists for different combinations (ie. no banishing on slashing or puncturing on blunt.....etc.....)

Second - it would almost kill the market for weapons on the AH, since any weapon with decent properties would be broken down and sold for the superior parts.

Finally, it would allow some overpowered combos that may not exist in the loot tables exactly because they are unbalancing or are so rare as to be non-entities (ie. +5 Metalline Smiter of Greater Contstruct Bane or +5 Metalline Banisher of Pure Good). I guess that could be overcome by making those possible combinations not useable due to ML's being calculated that would set it over 20.

One last note - I kind of like trying to hunt down decent weapons and looking for new different combinations for my weapons. It's part of the fun in the game. This idea could eliminate that surprise/fun element...I am on the fence on this one but pos rep for coming up with (as far as I know) a new and possibly workable idea for the game.

Absolutely. Only items that are currently possible given the ruleset for randomly generated weapons would be allowed (and given that those rules are already in game, they could port those as "recipes"). Breaking down weapons would also cost Dragonshards, nothings free here. :) To create those extremely powerful combinations would require alot of investment, and alot of dragonshard farming to build. Or alot of plat to buy, beit Shards or Runes, or Weapons.

I also cross my fingers when hitting a chest that I might pull something worthwhile, but more often than not, it's vendor trash. Even end reward selection is more about grabbing the highest value item to sell, rather than what's available to use (although that an entirley different conversation, heh). Perhaps now we could see some other value in end rewards, and choose to select something based on an individual property of a weapon, in an effort to pull that rune off of it.

TPICKRELL
10-15-2010, 01:00 PM
I like the concept, but in the unlikely even that it were to be implemented, I'm sure they would leave out handwraps again...

Eladiun
10-15-2010, 01:30 PM
I agree, it would have to be a costly endeavor to craft your own dream weapon. Both the breakdown and construction of a weapon should cost an appropriate number of Dragonshards. Breakdowns should cost less than the crafting due to the random nature. Although if you are looking for a +5 enhancement you could simply breakdown a simple ML12 (I think) +5 Greatsword with no other modifiers, and pull the exact rune you'd want..

I honestly love this idea. Who hasn't pulled that weapon and said this would be perfect but... A Flaming Burst of GEOB or A Ghost Touched of Greater Dragon Bane or you pull that Holy Burst of GCB and it's a Bastard Sword. Rather than selling or trading being able to break these weapons down to create a better weapon would be awesome. The grinding isn't so bad as you will come across the weapons you want... It should be uber expensive though in shards and Plat and the higher ML's should require Epic Dungeon Tokens.

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 01:34 PM
What kind of Dragonshard?

Also, strictly scaling by ML the cost to apply/chance to get runes wouldn't make sense. A GEOB rune should cost more than a +5 enhancement rune. And much more than a Greater Human Bane. A Silver rune should cost more than a Smiting rune.

Well, it's still up the random generator to generate the weapons that contain the enhancement to begin with, so rarity of enhancements won't change. :) Value would be determined by the playerbase, technically, dollar for dollar (or plat for plat as it were), base price is determined by ML, we, the playerbase, add exceptional value to items with those particular properties after the fact.

Flawless Shards would be appropriate I think, yeh?

Eladiun
10-15-2010, 01:39 PM
Flawless Shards would be appropriate I think, yeh?


Scale it based of ML of the Weapon to be created. No reason to exclude lowbies... a +1 Holy Maul of Undead Bane is cheaper to make than a +5 Holy Burst Maul of GUB.

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 01:46 PM
Scale it based of ML of the Weapon to be created. No reason to exclude lowbies... a +1 Holy Maul of Undead Bane is cheaper to make than a +5 Holy Burst Maul of GUB.

Ah yeh, similar to how fred handles feat swaps only with an ML modifier. :) Cool idea.

Can make a formula to craft and weapon like (<prefix> Siberys Dragonshard * Crafted Item ML).

1-4 Flawed
5-8 Imperfect
9-12 Normal
13-16 Exceptional
17-20 Flawless

dkyle
10-15-2010, 02:01 PM
Well, it's still up the random generator to generate the weapons that contain the enhancement to begin with, so rarity of enhancements won't change. :)

I see little reason to believe a +1 of GEOB is any rarer than a +1 of Greater Human Bane. GEOB is also not that great unless it's combined with Holy, silver, or both. So the value of a Holy Silver of GEOB needs to be much higher than the component runes cost, other wise anything else involving those runes would be overpriced. I'm not sure of a fair way to automatically price things like that.

Should a Holy rune's value be based on a Holy of Pure Good (worse than a double pos GS), or on a Holy Silver of GEOB? Even a Holy Silver of PG is about even with a MinII. Should Silver simply be massively expensive?


Value would be determined by the playerbase, technically, dollar for dollar (or plat for plat as it were), base price is determined by ML, we, the playerbase, add exceptional value to items with those particular properties after the fact.

Base price is all but meaningless. Items are worth what players decide they're worth.


Flawless Shards would be appropriate I think, yeh?

Requiring Flawless Shards would mean a very long, very boring grind, and require large increments of value between items. Also, I'd rather use Khyber shards, since they have limited uses currently.

Samiusbot
10-15-2010, 02:10 PM
I think this crafting plan might be better then the plan i have been playing around with for a while.

But it needs some polish.

Other then AH it is not much of a Plat sink. Maybe have a vendor that sells capture shards. Allowing you to try and target what you want from a weapon.
<Bonus>
<Prefix>
<Material>
<"of" Suffix>

There would need to have some kind of failure rate to capture said power. But failure leaves the item alone but destroys the capture shard. If you power up a capture shard you destroy the weapon.

Use the powered up shards + a blank you buy from another vendor or find (masterwork weapons) and a mixing stone (again from a vendor) = weapon.

The idea just needs a little work to remove gold from the game a little faster.

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 02:22 PM
I see little reason to believe a +1 of GEOB is any rarer than a +1 of Greater Human Bane. GEOB is also not that great unless it's combined with Holy, silver, or both. So the value of a Holy Silver of GEOB needs to be much higher than the component runes cost, other wise anything else involving those runes would be overpriced. I'm not sure of a fair way to automatically price things like that.

Should a Holy rune's value be based on a Holy of Pure Good (worse than a double pos GS), or on a Holy Silver of GEOB? Even a Holy Silver of PG is about even with a MinII. Should Silver simply be massively expensive?

Base price is all but meaningless. Items are worth what players decide they're worth.

Requiring Flawless Shards would mean a very long, very boring grind, and require large increments of value between items. Also, I'd rather use Khyber shards, since they have limited uses currently.

I updated my initial post with Stone of Change Recipes in regards to breaking down and crafting items.

The cost (of materials for the recipes) scales with item level to both breaking down and crafting an item. The resultant worth of a crafted weapon would be base value, as they'd be bound and attuned, and therefore non-salable. The value of individual runes would vary based on supply and demand of the playerbase. :) The value of weapons with certain enhancement would also be subject to supply and demand. For example, raw +5 Weapons would probably go up in value due to the ease of pulling a +5 rune, and cease to be simple vendor trash. +1 vorpal of lesser human bane may fluctaute in price due to the random nature of breaking down the item (you may get +1 rune, vorpal rune, or lesser human bane rune).

Gremmlynn
10-15-2010, 02:23 PM
Basing everything on ML would make materials, such as silver, free as they have no effect on an items ML.

Also, sticking to the purple (kyber?) shards for crafting I think would be a good idea as, outside of binding the odd item, they seem to just pile up, for me at least. But then I have no idea if I have a use for the tiny shards they crunch into as I don't know what tiny shards do. So maybe I'm wrong here.

Eladiun
10-15-2010, 02:27 PM
Also, sticking to the purple (kyber?) shards for crafting I think would be a good idea as, outside of binding the odd item, they seem to just pile up, for me at least. But then I have no idea if I have a use for the tiny shards they crunch into as I don't know what tiny shards do. So maybe I'm wrong here.


Spell Components for Trap the Soul

Gremmlynn
10-15-2010, 02:29 PM
Spell Components for Trap the SoulCool, lets use them then.

yawumpus
10-15-2010, 02:35 PM
Scale it based of ML of the Weapon to be created. No reason to exclude lowbies... a +1 Holy Maul of Undead Bane is cheaper to make than a +5 Holy Burst Maul of GUB.

Presumably you would need flawless shards to get converted to "holy burst" and "greater bane"
lesser shards would get you the "holy" and "standard bane".

Pelar help us if this is how they implement artificer (if you want to know what they are, try googling "eberron munchkin"). Not only will turbine sell the artificer class to every [premium] account, the will probably wind up selling multiple slots for both premium and vips (force the artificer to specialize: thats the ticket).

dkyle
10-15-2010, 02:40 PM
The resultant worth of a crafted weapon would be base value, as they'd be bound and attuned, and therefore non-salable.

To be more precise, a MinII is worth the plat value of the ingredients. You're probably looking at 3 million plat, all told. In order to be fair, a +5 Holy Silver of Pure Good would need to total to about that much. That's a lot of plat. Meanwhile, a +5 Holy of Pure Good is about the same as a TierII GS, which probably costs about 500 kplat, mostly in the cost of the blank. Does that mean that a Silver rune needs to be worth 2.5 million plat? Even though on a simple +5 Silver vampire beater, it would be worth much much less than that?

Now put in a GEOB instead of a Pure Good. We now have a weapon that's +11 damage or more per hit. How much is this worth? We don't have a direct basis for comparison, but I'd have to think at least 5 million plat. Is GEOB worth 2 million more than Pure Good, in general?

The problem is that runes will tend to be priced based on the highest level, best combination weapons they can be part of, which locks out anyone trying to make lower level, less powerful weapons.

And that's assuming that supply is tuned to arrive at those prices. If it's not, then MinIIs suddenly become obsolete.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-15-2010, 02:50 PM
On one hand I'd love to do something with all these stupid items that are randomly generated (not just weapons).

On the other hand, I could feel this get kind of overpowered. It could take, for example, holy silver of GEOB weapons from extremely rare to easily craftable. I'm not sure what that does to the balance of things... Some part of me says collecting 3 ML 6 weapons and allowing you to squish the good parts together into one ML16 item might have unexpected consequences.

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 03:00 PM
On one hand I'd love to do something with all these stupid items that are randomly generated (not just weapons).

On the other hand, I could feel this get kind of overpowered. It could take, for example, holy silver of GEOB weapons from extremely rare to easily craftable. I'm not sure what that does to the balance of things... Some part of me says collecting 3 ML 6 weapons and allowing you to squish the good parts together into one ML16 item might have unexpected consequences.

Let's throw it against the wall and see what happens. :) What are the 3 ML6 weapons you have, and what are you attempting to build as the ML16 weapon? Curious to see the costs associated, and likelyhood of pulling the runes you want. We'll use a simple random method of pulling the runes (1dX chance of getting what you want, where X is the number of enhancements on a weapon), and the formulas I posted earlier to determine the cost.

Jay203
10-15-2010, 03:02 PM
make it so the breakdown would only give you one random rune from the possible outcome

so let's say you have a +2 holy adamantine rapier of pure good and you break it down,
you'll end up with one of the following:
+2 enhancement rune
Holy enhancement rune
adamantine rune
enhancement rune of pure good

rather than one of each
of course, whether the chance for getting one type of rune should be the same across the board or different based on the power lvl is another story... :p

PS: i'd prefer this system over the greensteel system ANYDAY

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 03:06 PM
make it so the breakdown would only give you one random rune from the possible outcome

so let's say you have a +2 holy adamantine rapier of pure good and you break it down,
you'll end up with one of the following:
+2 enhancement rune
Holy enhancement rune
adamantine rune
enhancement rune of pure good

rather than one of each
of course, whether the chance for getting one type of rune should be the same across the board or different based on the power lvl is another story... :p

PS: i'd prefer this system over the greensteel system ANYDAY

That was my original idea, you'd only get 1 rune (I updated my post to make it a little more clear, thanks). If an item has 5 properties, you'd have a 1 in 5 chance to pull the exact rune you want. It would be rediculous if you got all 5 runes. Lower level items with a single enhancement would become worthwhile as you'd have a 1 in 2 chance to pull what you want (For example: +5 Greatsword could yield +5 Rune, or a Greatsword Blank).

dkyle
10-15-2010, 03:11 PM
Let's throw it against the wall and see what happens. :) What are the 3 ML6 weapons you have, and what are you attempting to build as the ML16 weapon? Curious to see the costs associated, and likelyhood of pulling the runes you want. We'll use a simple random method of pulling the runes (1dX chance of getting what you want, where X is the number of enhancements on a weapon), and the formulas I posted earlier to determine the cost.

You need to have metals like Silver add meaningfully to the cost, otherwise a Holy Silver of PG costs negligibly more than a Holy of PG, yet is vastly better.

Since ML1-4 silver weapons could be broken down very cheaply, the Silver rune itself would be very easy to get.

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 03:17 PM
You need to have metals like Silver add meaningfully to the cost, otherwise a Holy Silver of PG costs negligibly more than a Holy of PG, yet is vastly better.

Since ML1-4 silver weapons could be broken down very cheaply, the Silver rune itself would be very easy to get.

And if the market is flooded with Silver runes, they'd be pretty cheap. However, keep in mind you only get 1 rune from breaking down an item.

So a +1 Silver Shortsword could result in the following runes:
+1 Rune
Silver Rune
Shortsword Rune (I'm still torn on the Blank concept, whether it'd be feasable or not)

You could find the weapon for cheap, toss it in the Stone of Change with some shards, and wind up with a useless +1 rune. In order to guarentee you don't get skunked, you'd probably want to use a +5 Silver Shortsword, so at least you have a chance at a Silver Rune or a +5 Rune, of course the cost to break down the item goes up then, and you still have a 1 in 3 chance to pull a Shortsword blank. :)

As I was saying earlier, nothings free here, and there's still randomization. :) I'm with you though, I'm looking for ways that would exploit the system and result in an overpowered no-risk all-reward scenario myself.

In order to guarentee getting a high quality, sought-after rune, you'd have to breakdown a high quality, sought-after weapon. :) The cost goes up, but the reward is better. I'm trying to think of this in a risk vs reward scenario.

Jay203
10-15-2010, 03:28 PM
don't forget, the + # enhancement runes should be applicable to armors and shields as well
also, there needs to be a base weapon vendor that has different models of each type of weapon so people can make weapons with graphics they like instead of being stuck with fugly weapons

oh, and there's always the RR modifier too....

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 03:41 PM
don't forget, the + # enhancement runes should be applicable to armors and shields as well
also, there needs to be a base weapon vendor that has different models of each type of weapon so people can make weapons with graphics they like instead of being stuck with fugly weapons

oh, and there's always the RR modifier too....

I hadn't thought about armors, cool idea though and that would address alot of those visual customization requests as well. Imagine breaking down some nice looking armor, getting the blank, and then building it up from scratch the way you want it. That would be awesome. :)

RR modifier would be pretty awesome too. You could make ML22 weapons, pop an RR rune on it, and weild it at endgame.

Vellrad
10-15-2010, 03:42 PM
Plz no!
Meeles are to overpowered now. Plus there is already one weapon crafting system in game, sure, it still needs some more options to add (like keen or seeker). Yes, I'm talking about greensteels.
What is needed, is, shieldcrafting (it could work as weapon crafting you described), and spellmaking.

Plus, what will be point of doing (for example) Shroud, or grinding any other quests for weapons, if you can just run same quest over and over until rasnacked, if it can provide integreeds.

Jay203
10-15-2010, 03:43 PM
Plz no!
Meeles are to overpowered now. Plus there is already one weapon crafting system in game, sure, it still needs some more options to add (like keen or seeker). Yes, I'm talking about greensteels.
What is needed, is, shieldcrafting (it could work as weapon crafting you described), and spellmaking.

i'm thinking they should scrap greensteel altogether seeing how that system practically broke the game :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Gremmlynn
10-15-2010, 03:46 PM
I'd just leave the material on the blank. So a +1 silver shortsword would give either a +1 rune or a shortsword rune. That way if one wanted to makes that +5 holyburst silver sickle of PG they would need to break down silver sickles until they get a blank to add runes to. I think this would make it a bit tougher than just buying a bunch of silver weapons and busting them up for runes (doesn't one of the weapon vendors sell plain old silver weapons? I'm sure I saw cold iron weapons in one of the houses, J maybe?). I like the blank idea and think they should be the only base items runes should be able to be added to.

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 03:46 PM
Plz no!
Meeles are to overpowered now. Plus there is already one weapon crafting system in game, sure, it still needs some more options to add (like keen or seeker). Yes, I'm talking about greensteels.
What is needed, is, shieldcrafting (it could work as weapon crafting you described), and spellmaking.

It's not limited to just melee. You'd be able to craft yourself some nice items with Spell boosting, Power, Wizardy, Lore, etc etc. I didn't exclude shields (I always counted them as weapons anyway). :)

Eladiun
10-15-2010, 03:47 PM
On one hand I'd love to do something with all these stupid items that are randomly generated (not just weapons).

On the other hand, I could feel this get kind of overpowered. It could take, for example, holy silver of GEOB weapons from extremely rare to easily craftable. I'm not sure what that does to the balance of things... Some part of me says collecting 3 ML 6 weapons and allowing you to squish the good parts together into one ML16 item might have unexpected consequences.


There are pitfalls, no doubt, but it's an exciting idea from a conceptual standpoint. It would need to be expensive and difficult so that we wouldn't totally blow up game balance.

Vellrad
10-15-2010, 03:49 PM
It's not limited to just melee. You'd be able to craft yourself some nice items with Spell boosting, Power, Wizardy, Lore, etc etc. I didn't exclude shields (I always counted them as weapons anyway). :)

All this things can be easily found on lv8 weapon. All casters got this, because its extremally easy to get now. Plus, these effects are also extremally weak (especially when compared to meele weapon).

Jay203
10-15-2010, 03:53 PM
All this things can be easily found on lv8 weapon. All casters got this, because its extremally easy to get now. Plus, these effects are also extremally weak (especially when compared to meele weapon).

still not as bad as what the greensteel has to offer :p

Vellrad
10-15-2010, 04:04 PM
still not as bad as what the greensteel has to offer :p

I like my greensteel rapier with +9 inteligence bonus more than major lore or glaciation etc, because I can have them on accesories. :D

I predict, if there will be more easy buttons for meeles, and harder play for constantly nerfed casters, many of magic-users will delete their characters and roll warriors, resulting harder to find caster for pug, and pug for caster. This will result in adding more high level spell clickies, both on named loot and in DDO Store, wich will finally result in deletion of above 95% casters.

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 04:06 PM
There are pitfalls, no doubt, but it's an exciting idea from a conceptual standpoint. It would need to be expensive and difficult so that we wouldn't totally blow up game balance.

Using his example of breaking down 3 ML6 weapons to build 1 ML16 weapon, given that he gets 3 perfect breakdowns (getting the exact rune he wanted 3 times in a row), would cost:

Breakdown cost:
3 ML6 = 9 Imperfect Siberys Dragonshard

Crafting cost:
1 ML16 = 16 Exceptional Siberys Dragonshard

Plus the cost of time or plat or questing to get the 3 initial weapons, and the blank (or similar weapon) for crafting.

I'd say that's a heavy investment to achieve the perfect weapon (and still 1 weapon is never enough). It'd probably cost more given the random nature of breaking down the items, having to break down multiple items to get the exact runes.

Jay203
10-15-2010, 04:12 PM
I like my greensteel rapier with +9 inteligence bonus more than major lore or glaciation etc, because I can have them on accesories. :D

I predict, if there will be more easy buttons for meeles, and harder play for constantly nerfed casters, many of magic-users will delete their characters and roll warriors, resulting harder to find caster for pug, and pug for caster. This will result in adding more high level spell clickies, both on named loot and in DDO Store, wich will finally result in deletion of above 95% casters.

lol, i meant game-breaking bad :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
greensteel imo is way overpowered, to the point that the "epic" gears can't even be compared to it fairly

Vellrad
10-15-2010, 04:31 PM
lol, i meant game-breaking bad :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
greensteel imo is way overpowered, to the point that the "epic" gears can't even be compared to it fairly

I don't know is greensteel really that overpowered, but the fact that vale is a must pack for everyone, and shroud is most often runned raid, definitively* means something. The main problem of GS vs epic is that epic stuff is greatly underpowered. I don't know the meele's stuff, but the only good caster item is epic ring of spell storing, and maybe eternal Otilike's Freezing Spheere wand (but with 8 charges its very weak). I'm still waiting for something better than archmagi, better than major XYZ lore, something with better damage than ml12 weapon wielded by average weakly built meele, better than summon monster IX etc.

__________________________________________________ ____________________
* is that proper way to write that word?

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 04:33 PM
don't forget, the + # enhancement runes should be applicable to armors and shields as well

I updated my original post with your suggestion for armor crafting as well. Great idea. We'd finally be able wear what we want, instead of what we find. Got to raid in style! :)

Caeldos
10-15-2010, 04:37 PM
What if the breakdown of a weapon produced a rune of the respective power, rather than requiring Siberys dragonshards alone?

That would eliminate the problem of breaking down low level weaponry (and the resulting mass farming of mid level fast loot runs) to create high level weapons.

Thus to obtain that perfect +5 holy silver whatever of greater evil outsider bane you would have to disassemble appropriately leveled weapons containing said effects (and hoping to get the right runes).

You would then require a flawless silver rune, a flawless +5 rune and a flawless GEOB rune along with the base weapon (of the desired in game model) to combine (note all at once, not adding more effects as you go along). This would likely even out the item prices somewhat, as those +1 ghost touch something of dragon bane suddenly might give something slightly more usable, especially if something is an undesired weapon type. Furthermore it would serve to make it easier for newer players (such as myself) to obtain at least a +1 holy silver weapon of undead bane by the time such an item starts becoming crucial.

New players with some sort of capacity of learning would soon adapt to create weapons they need and lessen the gap to veterans. This could open up the possibility of better integration of new players, as veterans would not be as unwilling to group with them due to far too poor gear. As it stands now it is incredibly annoying to grind for money to buy those "necessary" items off the AH that you are expected to have assuming you've some game understanding, provided you're not lucking out like Luke (and happen to be a quick draw dps build) and pull them at level prior to needing them.

In closing I would think this could open up crafting to all level ranges, and also add increased value to many of those trash items floating around, that currently are vendored as soon as you get to a shop.

I think I've covered most of my thoughts by now.

Jay203
10-15-2010, 04:48 PM
I don't know is greensteel really that overpowered, but the fact that vale is a must pack for everyone, and shroud is most often runned raid, definitively* means something. The main problem of GS vs epic is that epic stuff is greatly underpowered. I don't know the meele's stuff, but the only good caster item is epic ring of spell storing, and maybe eternal Otilike's Freezing Spheere wand (but with 8 charges its very weak). I'm still waiting for something better than archmagi, better than major XYZ lore, something with better damage than ml12 weapon wielded by average weakly built meele, better than summon monster IX etc.

__________________________________________________ ____________________
* is that proper way to write that word?

it's not that epic is greatly underpowered, since a lot of the epics that came out are still better than pretty much all the random loot
it's only because everyone use greensteel as standard that the things epics have to offer seemed trivial

ps: i think you meant definitely

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 05:16 PM
it's not that epic is greatly underpowered, since a lot of the epics that came out are still better than pretty much all the random loot
it's only because everyone use greensteel as standard that the things epics have to offer seemed trivial

ps: i think you meant definitely

This sort of crafting wouldn't be as overpowering as greensteel crafting, simply because anything a player can craft via the Stone of Change could already be looted as a randomly generated weapon. Rarity of such items will change, but since all crafted weapons would be bound and attuned, it would have minimal effect on the general playerbase.

And if applied to armor as well, we could finally look the way we want. :)

SINIBYTE
10-15-2010, 06:33 PM
I like my greensteel rapier with +9 inteligence bonus more than major lore or glaciation etc, because I can have them on accesories. :D

I predict, if there will be more easy buttons for meeles, and harder play for constantly nerfed casters, many of magic-users will delete their characters and roll warriors, resulting harder to find caster for pug, and pug for caster. This will result in adding more high level spell clickies, both on named loot and in DDO Store, wich will finally result in deletion of above 95% casters.

I have to admit when I play on my caster I feel more like I have "duties", whereas on my melee I don't.

yawumpus
10-16-2010, 11:09 AM
What if the breakdown of a weapon produced a rune of the respective power, rather than requiring Siberys dragonshards alone?
[deletia]
You would then require a flawless silver rune, a flawless +5 rune and a flawless GEOB rune along with the base weapon (of the desired in game model) to combine (note all at once, not adding more effects as you go along). This would likely even out the item prices somewhat, as those +1 ghost touch something of dragon bane suddenly might give something slightly more usable, especially if something is an undesired weapon type. Furthermore it would serve to make it easier for newer players (such as myself) to obtain at least a +1 holy silver weapon of undead bane by the time such an item starts becoming crucial.
[more deletia]

The other catch is as someone mentioned above, the combination is the kicker. Holy silver of undead bane won't unbalance the system. Holy silver of evil outsider bane will be worth several million plat and/or suddenly obsolete every min2 weapon out there. Presumably you would either have to build a blank that can accept a set number of shards first (and put most of the cost into the blank) or there would be a huge difference between a ML6 holy shard (can combine with a +1 deception or +2 clean), a ML10 holy shard (can combine with silver or lesser bane), and ML18 holy (can combine with silver and greater bane). I think I like the second option better, but I tend to think it makes the balance much less stable than it is now.

azrael4h
10-16-2010, 11:57 AM
That would be pretty awesome, but the Stone of Change would spit it all back at you. ;) I'm actually curious to see what "viable" weapons could be attained to see if this would be overpowering in anyway, or if everyone would simply be running around with the same weapons.

As of now, using this system, I could deconstruct a Metalline Weapon, a Holy Burst weapon, a junk +5 weapon, and a of PG weapon, and mix it onto a Falchion for a +5 Holy Burst Metalline Falchion of PG. Top it off if I get to swing on that force damage ritual as well. Perfectly legal in weapon builds.

And this is just what my Paladin has laying around. I could do a similar weapon with Greater Undead/Construct/Goat Bane as well.

I say bind the metal to the item blank. So I'd need (well, I have it already) a Metalline Falchion, a +5 Rune, a Holy Burst rune, and a PG rune, in order to pull that one off. That way no one will be able to just grab a metalline +1 dagger or other junk weapon, and build a Metalline Great Axe or Falchion, or Khopesh.

Also, same system for armor. I'd love to take a +5 Mithril FP and tack on Heavy Fort, or maybe Invulnerability. And accessories; again tacking on a Power IX or magi/etc onto a +6 STR Bracers would be nice for a Paladin or Ranger.

Gremmlynn
10-16-2010, 01:09 PM
As of now, using this system, I could deconstruct a Metalline Weapon, a Holy Burst weapon, a junk +5 weapon, and a of PG weapon, and mix it onto a Falchion for a +5 Holy Burst Metalline Falchion of PG. Top it off if I get to swing on that force damage ritual as well. Perfectly legal in weapon builds.

And this is just what my Paladin has laying around. I could do a similar weapon with Greater Undead/Construct/Goat Bane as well.

I say bind the metal to the item blank. So I'd need (well, I have it already) a Metalline Falchion, a +5 Rune, a Holy Burst rune, and a PG rune, in order to pull that one off. That way no one will be able to just grab a metalline +1 dagger or other junk weapon, and build a Metalline Great Axe or Falchion, or Khopesh.

Also, same system for armor. I'd love to take a +5 Mithril FP and tack on Heavy Fort, or maybe Invulnerability. And accessories; again tacking on a Power IX or magi/etc onto a +6 STR Bracers would be nice for a Paladin or Ranger.Actually, metalline is a prefix not a material. Also, unless I'm reading this wrong, one wouldn't get to pick which property they get when they deconstruct. They'd get 1 random property rune and the stone would eat the rest.

Kominalito
10-16-2010, 01:15 PM
this is a terrible idea. what you are suggesting would make loot weps underpowered, and your suggested materials go supernova in the AH. not to mention that you'd be suggesting overpowered items anyway. making something metalline is one thing, making a "+5 metalline vorpal piercing anarchaic burst falchion of greater evil outsider bane" is ********. the loot system, as simple as it is (expensive stuff in ah, lucky buys in chat) keeps everything balanced a bit more. i'd bet the whole game mechanic would be altered.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-16-2010, 01:19 PM
Using his example of breaking down 3 ML6 weapons to build 1 ML16 weapon, given that he gets 3 perfect breakdowns (getting the exact rune he wanted 3 times in a row), would cost:

Breakdown cost:
3 ML6 = 9 Imperfect Siberys Dragonshard

Crafting cost:
1 ML16 = 16 Exceptional Siberys Dragonshard

Plus the cost of time or plat or questing to get the 3 initial weapons, and the blank (or similar weapon) for crafting.

I'd say that's a heavy investment to achieve the perfect weapon (and still 1 weapon is never enough). It'd probably cost more given the random nature of breaking down the items, having to break down multiple items to get the exact runes.

The sib shards are not a real investment in gaming terms since you can buy them for cash

And 3 junk/easy to find weapons, in your system, combine to be pretty powerful. For example

+1 silver something
+1 holy
+1 pure good

each a low level not very special weapon. Pretty common to find if you don't mind the junk versions, which you wouldn't in this case (ie - +1 light mace of pure good, +1 holy club of deception, etc)

The new weapon, a +1 holy silver Weaponofchoice of pure good, is a pretty nice weapon that competes with GS

SINIBYTE
10-16-2010, 01:24 PM
this is a terrible idea. what you are suggesting would make loot weps underpowered, and your suggested materials go supernova in the AH. not to mention that you'd be suggesting overpowered items anyway. making something metalline is one thing, making a "+5 metalline vorpal piercing anarchaic burst falchion of greater evil outsider bane" is ********. the loot system, as simple as it is (expensive stuff in ah, lucky buys in chat) keeps everything balanced a bit more. i'd bet the whole game mechanic would be altered.

I think you should've read the concept thoroughly before commenting. :)

A "+5 metalline vorpal piercing anarchaic burst falchion of greater evil outsider bane" is not possible to be crafted. In fact, nothing that could come out of this system could be any more overpowered than anything that already currently exists in the game. It is only possible to craft items that the random loot generator could possibly create. It's just as balanced as the random loot generator. Anything that could possibly be looted, could be crafted.

SINIBYTE
10-16-2010, 01:30 PM
Actually, metalline is a prefix not a material. Also, unless I'm reading this wrong, one wouldn't get to pick which property they get when they deconstruct. They'd get 1 random property rune and the stone would eat the rest.

Exactly. Metalline is a prefix, so you couldn't have a metalline "blank". Nor can you make a Holy Burst Metalline, or a Returning Vorpal, or a Paralyzing Vorpal, etc.

And the random nature of deconstruction means you may need to break down several items to get the rune you're after.

A simple +1 Metalline Greatsword could result in:
+1 Rune
Metalline Rune
Greatsword Rune (blank)

One is fairly useless, one would be sought after, and the blank is only worthwhile if you're after a particular skin. :) One in three chance to pull the rune you want, one in five if all properties are on an item. The best case scenario is one in two given +X Weapon (with no other enhancements). On average people will have a one in three or one in four chance to pull a rune they've specifically after.

Here's a ddowiki articles on how the prefixes, bonuses, suffixes and materials work together:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Weapon_enhancement_summary

Bodic
10-16-2010, 01:45 PM
then you would see a shroud(normal lvls 18-20) of you must link your +5 holy burst silver khopesh of GEOB or are declined no rogues, rangers, bards, sorcs, or monks.

and then they fail :P

SINIBYTE
10-16-2010, 01:47 PM
The sib shards are not a real investment in gaming terms since you can buy them for cash

And 3 junk/easy to find weapons, in your system, combine to be pretty powerful. For example

+1 silver something
+1 holy
+1 pure good

each a low level not very special weapon. Pretty common to find if you don't mind the junk versions, which you wouldn't in this case (ie - +1 light mace of pure good, +1 holy club of deception, etc)

The new weapon, a +1 holy silver Weaponofchoice of pure good, is a pretty nice weapon that competes with GS

A nice Holy Silver of PG weapon would be nice, but it wouldn't be any less nicer if it were randomly pulled (only less rare), still though, bound and attuned, and through the recipes, costly. So the market couldn't be flooded with these awesome weapons (they're non-salable). The cost of Syberis Shards would likely go up, as their demand would go up. So I'd imagine it would cost a pretty penny to craft a handful of great weapons. I tried to come up with a recipe that would be costly enough that you wouldn't just do it on a whim.

In your example, you could just as easily pulled 2 +1 Runes, and a blank, in which case - no Holy Silver of PG for you. ;) Back to the AH you go (or start grinding content). :)

Lorien_the_First_One
10-16-2010, 01:51 PM
A nice Holy Silver of PG weapon would be nice, but it wouldn't be any less nicer if it were randomly pulled (only less rare), still though, bound and attuned, and through the recipes, costly. So the market couldn't be flooded with these awesome weapons (they're non-salable). The cost of Syberis Shards would likely go up, as their demand would go up. So I'd imagine it would cost a pretty penny to craft a handful of great weapons. I tried to come up with a recipe that would be costly enough that you wouldn't just do it on a whim.

In your example, you could just as easily pulled 2 +1 Runes, and a blank, in which case - no Holy Silver of PG for you. ;) Back to the AH you go (or start grinding content). :)

You could goto any broker today and find those raw ingredients, the reality is that stuff falls now and because of how its combined its not useful and is brokered/vendored.

It would take far less grinding to craft that weapon than a GS MINII and it would be almost equal to that weapon, especially against acid immune mobs.


While it would be non saleable, I still think it would flood the market with that stuff much faster than you could get it any other way now.

Same for Silver GEOB, and other hard to find combos.

SINIBYTE
10-16-2010, 02:09 PM
You could goto any broker today and find those raw ingredients, the reality is that stuff falls now and because of how its combined its not useful and is brokered/vendored.

It would take far less grinding to craft that weapon than a GS MINII and it would be almost equal to that weapon, especially against acid immune mobs.


While it would be non saleable, I still think it would flood the market with that stuff much faster than you could get it any other way now.

Same for Silver GEOB, and other hard to find combos.

Not sure what your exact concern is. Are you concerned that people would actually use it? Not sure I really see the difference between someone selling a Silver Rune for 200k plat on the Auction House, or selling a couple Chipmunk Funk for 200k on the auction house. Or selling a GEOB for 600k, and a large devil scale for 600k. Market would dictate value obviously.

The alternate to the AH is to grind out loot with those properties, and take your chances with deconstruction (no different than taking your chances on a large scale dropping in part 4). Found a GEOB on a weapon, deconstruct it and instead get a +2 Rune... ya never know. ;)

I think you're suggesting it would be too easy for someone to craft a GS equivalent with less investment. If that's the case, you could always add a bound-to-character lootable crafting shard to the loot table somewhere (or everywhere) that's required by the Stone of Change to craft. That shard would hold the same value as a shard of power in the shroud, everyone needs one, and they're obnoxiously difficult to get for some reason. :)

SINIBYTE
10-17-2010, 12:24 PM
I was thinking a little more on the subject of rarity, and it seems that some of these enhancements are already seemingly rare, so their rarity would not change. Their combination with other rare enhancement would be much more rare however.

SINIBYTE
10-18-2010, 10:15 AM
What if the breakdown of a weapon produced a rune of the respective power, rather than requiring Siberys dragonshards alone?

That would eliminate the problem of breaking down low level weaponry (and the resulting mass farming of mid level fast loot runs) to create high level weapons.

Thus to obtain that perfect +5 holy silver whatever of greater evil outsider bane you would have to disassemble appropriately leveled weapons containing said effects (and hoping to get the right runes).

You would then require a flawless silver rune, a flawless +5 rune and a flawless GEOB rune along with the base weapon (of the desired in game model) to combine (note all at once, not adding more effects as you go along). This would likely even out the item prices somewhat, as those +1 ghost touch something of dragon bane suddenly might give something slightly more usable, especially if something is an undesired weapon type. Furthermore it would serve to make it easier for newer players (such as myself) to obtain at least a +1 holy silver weapon of undead bane by the time such an item starts becoming crucial.

New players with some sort of capacity of learning would soon adapt to create weapons they need and lessen the gap to veterans. This could open up the possibility of better integration of new players, as veterans would not be as unwilling to group with them due to far too poor gear. As it stands now it is incredibly annoying to grind for money to buy those "necessary" items off the AH that you are expected to have assuming you've some game understanding, provided you're not lucking out like Luke (and happen to be a quick draw dps build) and pull them at level prior to needing them.

In closing I would think this could open up crafting to all level ranges, and also add increased value to many of those trash items floating around, that currently are vendored as soon as you get to a shop.

I think I've covered most of my thoughts by now.

Someone else mentioned something similar, by keeping the material property on the blank. Not a bad idea.

Gremmlynn
10-18-2010, 03:33 PM
It would take far less grinding to craft that weapon than a GS MINII and it would be almost equal to that weapon, especially against acid immune mobs.I fail to see how this would be a bad thing?

Kominalito
10-19-2010, 01:06 PM
I think you should've read the concept thoroughly before commenting. :)

A "+5 metalline vorpal piercing anarchaic burst falchion of greater evil outsider bane" is not possible to be crafted. In fact, nothing that could come out of this system could be any more overpowered than anything that already currently exists in the game. It is only possible to craft items that the random loot generator could possibly create. It's just as balanced as the random loot generator. Anything that could possibly be looted, could be crafted.

i was being facetious. what i'm saying is by making high end gear "drop type" gear craftable, you are flooding the market. if you make the weps bound it still effects the market. if everyone has a hb/pg keen wep, how much do you think a hb/pg keen wep will sell for in the AH?

to clarify, i'm not a merchant. prices are atrocious in the AH, but the main source of income in this game is drop loot. your idea effects that. just making the suggestion that it should be considered.

Dragion
10-20-2010, 06:57 AM
This is a possibility if done in the ddo store, since they want to profit too. A win win.

wolflordnexus
10-20-2010, 07:54 AM
although I would love to be able to have
A +5 holy burst silver GEOB
A +5 holy burst cold Iron GEOB
A +5 Anarchich burst Admantium GCB
A +5 Holy Burst Silver GUB
A +5 Holy burst of Stunning 10
and a +5 whatever the forums find to be the best prefix of everbright
And of course +5 holy burst Greater banes for dragons giants and more
I can only see this leading to even more mob inflation.

/not signed

SINIBYTE
10-20-2010, 10:42 AM
i was being facetious. what i'm saying is by making high end gear "drop type" gear craftable, you are flooding the market. if you make the weps bound it still effects the market. if everyone has a hb/pg keen wep, how much do you think a hb/pg keen wep will sell for in the AH?

to clarify, i'm not a merchant. prices are atrocious in the AH, but the main source of income in this game is drop loot. your idea effects that. just making the suggestion that it should be considered.

Well again, you can't have holy burst keen weapon. You have to understand the possible combinations before stating things can be overpowered, nothing craftable would be any more overpowered than items already in game.

Kominalito
10-21-2010, 12:35 AM
you are missing the whole point entirely, but i respect your right to dodge my opinions.