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Loftus
10-11-2010, 08:02 PM
You want some suggestions, ok here we go I have two major ones. First stop the madness and get rid of the level 20 cap, you just do not see it in other games. Even your own LOTRO does not cap a character at 20. Also with the level cap your monster DC does not stop at 20, so fix it one way or the other. Fighting a DC23 monster is unfair in every way. 2nd- The manyshot feat should either have the cooldown removed altogether or greatly reduced, it is an ability and should not be so little used. It's not like it's a spell effect you need to use sp for so get it fixed. I can see looking realistically at someone performing a maneuver like that would need a brief rest but not the one that is in place in the game. The bows are already gimped enough so throw those of us with manyshot a bone.

Pantsless
10-11-2010, 08:07 PM
is the OP trolling?

Impaqt
10-11-2010, 08:07 PM
You want some suggestions, ok here we go I have two major ones. First stop the madness and get rid of the level 20 cap, you just do not see it in other games. Even your own LOTRO does not cap a character at 20. Also with the level cap your monster DC does not stop at 20, so fix it one way or the other. Fighting a DC23 monster is unfair in every way. 2nd- The manyshot feat should either have the cooldown removed altogether or greatly reduced, it is an ability and should not be so little used. It's not like it's a spell effect you need to use sp for so get it fixed. I can see looking realistically at someone performing a maneuver like that would need a brief rest but not the one that is in place in the game. The bows are already gimped enough so throw those of us with manyshot a bone.

the Ranks in DDo are a better representation of level cap when compared to "other" MMO's

Manyshot cooldown isnt "Realistic" but Fighting a pit fiend is?

DDO isnt about Realism. Its a fantasy MMO and the cooldown is in there for balance. While I concur it needs some love, removing the cooldown would be insanely overpowering.

BlackSteel
10-11-2010, 08:10 PM
semantics. you get a 100 "ranks" while leveling, isnt that good enough?

vVAnjilaVv
10-11-2010, 11:24 PM
Honestly, I would think pulling four arrows at a time and firing them with power and precision would be quite energy draining....so the cooldown makes perfect sense.

I think the cap is fine, monsters with high DC are there for people looking for a greater challenge.....noone is forcing your capped 20's into Amarath and Epic quests.

And if your referring to Elite scaling.....well, that is for elite players.....not people who want it easy.

Diyon
10-11-2010, 11:41 PM
One, monsters can't be DC23, but can be CR23. Two, the CR system is based on a party of four characters. In that a CR 23 is supposed to be an average encounter for four lvl23s. Also, with all the stat inflations between monsters and players I'm betting it doesn't even work that way in DDO anyways.

Waukeen
10-12-2010, 12:12 AM
Open a D&D book.

It goes to 20.

Deal with it.

Epic brings it to 30. but the current rules in PnP are terrible.

JDCrowell
10-12-2010, 12:34 AM
You want some suggestions, ok here we go I have two major ones. First stop the madness and get rid of the level 20 cap, you just do not see it in other games. Even your own LOTRO does not cap a character at 20. Also with the level cap your monster DC does not stop at 20, so fix it one way or the other. Fighting a DC23 monster is unfair in every way. 2nd- The manyshot feat should either have the cooldown removed altogether or greatly reduced, it is an ability and should not be so little used. It's not like it's a spell effect you need to use sp for so get it fixed. I can see looking realistically at someone performing a maneuver like that would need a brief rest but not the one that is in place in the game. The bows are already gimped enough so throw those of us with manyshot a bone.

While I would very much enjoy a shorter cool down for Many Shot, I'm not going to cry about it.

Seems just fine with me. Besides...when did it hurt an AA to drop the bow and pull out a couple of Rapiers or something?

Just my two cents.

CrescentCalling_5
10-12-2010, 08:11 AM
Open a D&D book.

It goes to 20.

Deal with it.

Epic brings it to 30. but the current rules in PnP are terrible.

in some versions epic brings it to 40. Forgotten realms did well with that :3

Therigar
10-12-2010, 08:31 AM
IMO the L20 cap is tied to the way D&D is structured. This has not always been a feature of D&D but is certainly the way it is now.

The problem is that in PnP games it takes forever to reach L20. In DDO you can hit L20 pretty fast -- less than a week if you really want to and in 4-6 weeks if you stick with the same character and play often.

Once you hit L20 you really don't have anything to do. You can

* Go back and do it all over again as a TR
* Start a new character and do it all over again
* Grind gear, tokens, etc so you can run Epic

At some point it stops being fun. The dungeons get to be predictable and boring. The new content is nothing really new.

An alternative is quests where the adventures continue and the characters can progress beyond L20.

Forget all the demi-godhood comparisons and thoughts that L20 is comparable to PnP. In PnP if I'm a L20 character there is nothing that can seriously challenge me. In DDO a L20 character can wipe in Gianthold if they are not careful.

So, OP has a point regarding level cap. Although I'm not certain how to address the point vis-a-vis the game.

A couple of random thoughts:

1. When you TR what if you went to a different part of the world where the quests were all new and different instead of staying in Stormreach?

2. What if when you hit L20 you had the option to skip TR and instead move into new content of really epic quests and could advance beyond level cap to some new target (L30 perhaps)?

Noctus
10-12-2010, 08:47 AM
You want some suggestions, ok here we go I have two major ones. First stop the madness and get rid of the level 20 cap, you just do not see it in other games. Even your own LOTRO does not cap a character at 20. Also with the level cap your monster DC does not stop at 20, so fix it one way or the other. Fighting a DC23 monster is unfair in every way. 2nd- The manyshot feat should either have the cooldown removed altogether or greatly reduced, it is an ability and should not be so little used. It's not like it's a spell effect you need to use sp for so get it fixed. I can see looking realistically at someone performing a maneuver like that would need a brief rest but not the one that is in place in the game. The bows are already gimped enough so throw those of us with manyshot a bone.


troll or not - benefit of the doubt.


a) If you rename the 100 ranks to "level", each giving a small increase and every 5 you get a bigger boost to your abilities, you would be fine, wouldnt you?
--> pure semantics.


b) No, Manyshot is build in this way because of Balance. Always Manyshot = all ranged, no melee. there was a time in beta in which ranged DPS was the same / very close to melee DPS ----> all people ranged and kited, noone meleed.

Requiro
10-12-2010, 09:33 AM
(...)

At some point it stops being fun. The dungeons get to be predictable and boring. The new content is nothing really new.

An alternative is quests where the adventures continue and the characters can progress beyond L20.

(...)

2. What if when you hit L20 you had the option to skip TR and instead move into new content of really epic quests and could advance beyond level cap to some new target (L30 perhaps)?

No. This is change nothing. When you hit L30 and do it again and again, all new quest will be old and boring again.

But there is something that will made old quest fun again: RANDOM location traps, boss, chest, monsters, monster's CR ect. ect. (Maybe even slight DESIGN of the dungeon?) That will change game entirely, and most ZERG players will quit.

So the best solution is made some of the quest unpredictable (in any levels or in high levels only) and rest leave like they are today.

(but this change will never see daylight... ;) )

Therigar
10-12-2010, 01:04 PM
Taking this somewhat seriously for the moment....

IMO Turbine is stuck, was stuck from the very start. If it built a game where leveling was long and you received really small amounts of XP then very few people would play -- certainly not enough to keep the game viable. But, by building a game that allows rapid leveling Turbine runs out of game to offer.

Keep in mind that D&D rules are written for a table-top role playing game. They are not designed for something like DDO. D&D might realistically expect you to take years to reach L20 (making that a reasonable level cap). And, odds are you will never repeat a dungeon (or if you do it will be full of new inhabitants who have made a few "updates" to their environment).

Your DM can easily keep pace with character leveling and design new dungeons on the fly if need be. They can work in a few pre-designed modules, recycle modules from older versions or just run a slew of random encounters as you travel through the always dangerous and expansive "wilderness areas."

DDO doesn't do that.

What I would suggest is an alternate game space away from Stormreach that is accessable only to L20 characters in which the content is not based on quickly completed dungeons with massive XP. Save that for the bulk of DDO because it is needed to keep the players playing.

What I wonder is if there would be value in building epic levels of content that worked differently than the L1-20 game. What happens if the quests are long, difficult, have multiple solutions and open new events based on the solution you use in the present quest? And, what if the XP were such that it would take hundreds of hours to progress each bubble on the way towards your epic levels of 21-30?

Would people play only for the challenge or would it be a complete dead end and waste of effort by Turbine?

I think that the market is for content that is quickly beaten with high reward to the players. I think that is why Turbine is, was, stuck developing DDO the way it is.

So, I think that raising the level cap above the artificially set 20 (it is just a number after all) isn't necessarily a bad idea. Players get to L20 and they run out of things to do. Repeating old content isn't something new. Playing a new character on old content isn't something new. Writing new code for more dungeons doesn't do anything because at L20 there isn't any real challenge. It is a 4 hour "fix" and then it is old too.

The answer, IMO, is to just allow levels to continue to increase and to add new, higher level content. Maybe content that is accessible only to those who are L20+.

Call it "epic" content if it makes people feel better about following D&D rules. But, IMO it will become necessary. The game as it is offers too much opportunity for a player to do it all too soon and to hit L20 too easily.

Dungeons should have only 1 difficulty level. They should not be repeatable by any character. There should be multiple story lines tied to the existing factions. There should be multiple goals within dungeons depending on which faction is a player's patron. There should be consequences for failing to protect your faction's interests. You should need to do nearly all of the quests designed for your level before obtaining enough XP to advance to the next level.

But, that isn't what DDO is. It isn't a PnP game. So what it "should" be isn't what it is. But, for DDO to continue being what it is means that Turbine has to give players more of what they have come to expect. That means more levels for their characters and not an artificial stopping point.

It was true when cap was L10/12/14/16. It is true now that it is L20.

For an interesting look at the history of the game see here (http://www.rpgloft.com/Guides/DDO/DDO-Dungeons-Dragons-Guides.php).

Diyon
10-12-2010, 05:29 PM
1. When you TR what if you went to a different part of the world where the quests were all new and different instead of staying in Stormreach?

I think there may be something in that, I'm not sure how it would need to be done to make it work well in DDO, but it sounds like it may have some merit in it.

You have some other interesting thoughts too that got me thinking. A zone/area that's accessible to only lvl 20s? (or maybe TRs too idk) Why not make it have several active combat areas that are actively controlled by GMs/devs that happen to feel like throwing a challenge that has active intelligence behind, and give out rewards to those who prevail? It wouldn't have to be all actively controlled but just be an area where Turbine can just step in and control anything and everything they feel like. I'd have a blast with that sort of area.

AyumiAmakusa
10-12-2010, 05:30 PM
Woah was this post serious?

It seems too easy to point out stuff wrong with it....

articwarrior
10-12-2010, 05:35 PM
Honestly, I would think pulling four arrows at a time and firing them with power and precision would be quite energy draining....so the cooldown makes perfect sense.

I think the cap is fine, monsters with high DC are there for people looking for a greater challenge.....noone is forcing your capped 20's into Amarath and Epic quests.

And if your referring to Elite scaling.....well, that is for elite players.....not people who want it easy.

this

also, if manyshot had a shorter cool down then it would break PvE because they would be the only characters played-AA. with 4 arrows going off a second and getting slayer on top of that AS WELL AS being self sufficient with heal scrolls.

Chai
10-12-2010, 05:41 PM
Sure lets all bear witness to how much DnD is even more broken after 20 than it is before 20.

Now mobs are running around casting max empowered greater ruin for 1500 damage, mana free, and this, right after casting dragon knight. Now its eVON 6 right in the middle of the hallway every time we encounter a trash mob caster!! Wooooohoooooo!!! Get behind that rock, quick!!!

So, you think maraliths and tanari should be trash mobs....

rezo
10-12-2010, 05:42 PM
You want some suggestions, ok here we go I have two major ones. First stop the madness and get rid of the level 20 cap, you just do not see it in other games. Even your own LOTRO does not cap a character at 20. Also with the level cap your monster DC does not stop at 20, so fix it one way or the other. Fighting a DC23 monster is unfair in every way. 2nd- The manyshot feat should either have the cooldown removed altogether or greatly reduced, it is an ability and should not be so little used. It's not like it's a spell effect you need to use sp for so get it fixed. I can see looking realistically at someone performing a maneuver like that would need a brief rest but not the one that is in place in the game. The bows are already gimped enough so throw those of us with manyshot a bone.

/sign, sure why not. Players don't want manyshot to be fix because it would gimp most of there build and playing tactic's in the game. After all, run up to monster and hold one mouse button down is very hard to do for most. lol :D :D

Requiro
10-13-2010, 06:26 AM
(..) every time we encounter a trash mob caster!! Wooooohoooooo!!! Get behind that rock, quick!!!

Oh - that will be so nice :) Fell that fear again when I go in to dungeon... For now it only annoying trash moob, that slows me down. Just like mud, nothing more.

Loftus
10-17-2010, 08:43 PM
Open a D&D book.

It goes to 20.

Deal with it.

Epic brings it to 30. but the current rules in PnP are terrible.

D&D(btw i have played on and off since i was 8) has as a rule listed to twenty but always given guidelines for levels past 20 and that was without the epic levels.

rahubby
10-17-2010, 09:29 PM
How about this: In First Edition PnP, the XP charts went up to 20 and then said something like "1 million XP per level hereafter, +1 hit point, etc" except for Monk and, If I recall correctly, Druids, both of which had hard caps (Monk was capped at 15)

Instead of a set number of XP to level, allow unlimited levelling, but the XP to go up every level past 20 is double the XP for the previous level.

Problem Solved. First one to level 100 gets to watch the sun burn out.

KillEveryone
10-17-2010, 09:31 PM
Your DDO character at lvl 20 is the equivalent to other MMO's character at their capped level.

We could have a level 50. What then? Are you going to want it to go to 100? So it gets raised to 100. Where does it actually stop?

Why should the number be higher than level 20? All it will do is either make the levels quicker since you will need to have the same XP amount for level 50 that you need for the current cap so you just adjust your XP levels.

It isn't going to make you more powerful since there is a certain point that the dev's don't want your character going past since it will completely unbalance the game. The level 25 on a 50 level scale would be the equivalent of level 10 now.

Nothing is really wrong with level 20 as being capped for a normal character. I wouldn't mind seeing stuff added for epic and having that as a leveling set up on its own but that is for epic, not normal.

About the monster DC...they need to be harder. Normal is just a cake walk. Hard is OK but not very satisfying. Elite is nice but needs to be harder. I think it would be improved with better monster AI.

About the manyshot cooldown...the bug proved that it is too powerful to not have a cool down. Maybe shorten it a bit but not too much. They don't want players to just range everything. The dev's are trying to have the players do something that requires risk and typically that is more melee. A ranged character with manyshot always active would be able to kill everything from a distance without being in danger themselves. Turn up your draw distance to max and see how far you can see all the critters. A ranged character can kill it before it has a chance to put you into danger.

Uska
10-17-2010, 09:51 PM
They already have pnp rules for characters above 20 for 3.5 its called epic and could have balance problems using rules from 1st wont really work as 3.5 is a much different game they will likely add some kind of epic lvls later I am sure.

Talon_Moonshadow
10-17-2010, 10:35 PM
And just which quests do you expect your lvl 40 guy to run?

LMF: Shroud Normal lvl 37-40 "know what you are doing!" :cool:

Vellrad
10-17-2010, 10:51 PM
I think it would be nice to be able to get epic levels, but I think Turbine (and 99% of game developers) couldn't do epic magic as it should be done. There is no knowledge, so there are no epic spell slots. There is no spellcraft, so epic spell can not be created and crafted. Plus all that thing with players building their spells the way they want them, they would have to add some UI for that, and some way to add players' spells to game's database. So they will probably do it NWN style, where you had to waste 5 times more feats on spells, and had less casts/day, do it like normal spell level with spells created by devs, or completely ignore epic magic. Any of 3 ways is extreme nerf to epic caster (especially those compared to epic meeles).

Strakeln
10-17-2010, 11:37 PM
LOL... oh man, that's great... someone complaining about the level 20 cap.

Dude, you know the cap was once TEN? :D

rahubby
10-18-2010, 01:16 PM
I think it would be nice to be able to get epic levels, but I think Turbine (and 99% of game developers) couldn't do epic magic as it should be done. There is no knowledge, so there are no epic spell slots. There is no spellcraft, so epic spell can not be created and crafted. Plus all that thing with players building their spells the way they want them, they would have to add some UI for that, and some way to add players' spells to game's database. So they will probably do it NWN style, where you had to waste 5 times more feats on spells, and had less casts/day, do it like normal spell level with spells created by devs, or completely ignore epic magic. Any of 3 ways is extreme nerf to epic caster (especially those compared to epic meeles).

Actually you wouldn't really need to add each and every custom spell to the database, you would just need to have a few basic frameworks into which the player would apportion various points, which would be part of the information passed across the game interface.

It could work in a manner similar to the old Hero system used in the pen and paper version of Champions...you pick a basic power type, the type of damage (if any) it does, any mez components, base damage, etc...