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Requiro
10-11-2010, 05:23 AM
This is 2nd attempt for rework on Archmage PrE. I know that there is no chance to get is alive. But I want to show everyone what this PrE could be, and should be. For now we have Specialist whose Turbine call Archamge. And this is wrong :(

Archamge should be generalist, with more power to change essence of magic. Most part of DnD Archamge can’t be translate in DDO exactly. I will try to do it, and in my opinion this is much better way then Turbine. Enjoy :)



Archmage(core)


Level 6: Archmage I (4 AP):

Grants: +50 SP
Wizard Caster Level : +1
1st SL-a slot
1st High Arcana Slot




Level 9: Archmage II (1 AP):

Grants: +25 SP
Wizard Maximum Caster Level : +1
2nd SL-a slot
2nd High Arcana Slot




Level 12: Archmage III (1 AP):

Grants: +25 SP
Wizard Spell Penetration +1 for all Wizards spells
3rd SL-a slot
3rd High Arcana Slot




Level 15: Archmage IV (1 AP):

Grants: +25 SP
Ability Rise: +1 Intelligence
4th SL-a slot
4th High Arcana Slot




Level 18: Archmage V (1 AP):

Grants: +25 SP
Ability Rise: +1 Intelligence
5th SL-a slot
5th High Arcana Slot



High Arcana


Spell Power (1 AP each):

Can be taken twice
Same bonus at both: +1 DC to all Wizards spells
Cost: 1st time: 50 SP, 2nd: 75 SP




Arcane Fire (1 AP each):

Can be taken twice (works separately)
1st: Force damage: 1d4 / Wizard Caster Level. Use: 1 SP, Colddown: 3 sec.
2nd: Force damage: 1d6 / Wizard Caster Level with AOE effect. Use: 3 SP, Colddown: 5 sec.
Cost: 1st time: 50 SP, 2nd: 100 SP
Special Note: Metamagics won’t work on that ability.




Arcane Reach (1 AP each):

Can be taken twice
1st: increase range of the spells: +20% base range
2nd: increase range of the spells: +30% base range (stack with 1st)
Cost: 1st time: 25 SP, 2nd: 50 SP
Special Note: Stack with Enlarge metamagic in formula: Range=Base*(2(E)+0,2(1st Ar)+0,3(2nd Ar)




Mastery of Elements(1 AP each):

Can be taken twice
Same bonus at both: +10% damage with all Wizards spell
Cost: 1st time: 25 SP, 2nd: 50SP




Mastery of Counterspelling (1 AP):

Can be taken once
You have 20% chance to block any damage from damaging spell.
Cost: 50 SP




Higher Magic (1 AP):

Can be taken once
Grants additional 2SP / level
Base cost of all Wizards spell are reduced by 1 SP.



Spell Like Abilities


Every spell take one SL-a slot and cost 1 AP.
When you what to take SL-a you get list of available spells
Every time you take the SL-a list of available spells are expend:




1st SL-a: All 1 level spell plus Invisibility, except: Niac's Cold Ray, Repair Light Damage
2nd SL-a: All 1,2 level spell except: Repair Light Damage, Repair Moderate Damage, Scorching Ray
3rd SL-a: All 1,2,3 level spell except: Repair Moderate Damage, Repair Serious Damage, Scorching Ray, Fireball, Frost Lance, Acid Blast
4th SL-a: All 1,2,3,4 level spell plus Stone to Flesh, except: Repair Serious Damage, Repair Critical Damage, Wall of Fire
5th SL-a: ALL 1,2,3,4,5 level spell plus True Seeing, Stone to Flesh, Flesh to Stone, Shadow Walk, Repair Moderate Damage, Mass, except: Repair Critical Damage



Cost: 1st: 25 SP, 2nd: 50 SP, 3rd: 75 SP, 4th: 100 SP, 5th: 125 SP.
Cost per Use: 1st: 1SP, 2nd: 3 SP, 3rd: 5SP, 4th: 7SP, 5th: 10SP.
Coldown: 1st: 3 sec, 2nd: 4 sec, 3rd: 5 sec, 4th: 6 sec, 5th: 7 sec.


Prerequisites


Level 6: Archmage I:

Requires All of: Wizard Intelligence I , Improved Concentration II, Wizard Energy of the Scholar I
Requires One of: Mental Toughness or Past Life: Arcane Prodigy




Level 9: Archmage II:

Requires All of: Archmage I, Wizards Intelligence II, Wizard Spell Penetration I
Requires One of: Any Spell Focus or Past Life: Arcane Initiate




Level 12: Archmage III:

Requires All of: Archmage II, Improved Concentration III, Wizard Energy of the Scholar II
Requires One of: Any 2nd Spell Focus or Past Life: Arcane Initiate




Level 15: Archmage IV (1 AP):

Requires All of: Archmage III, Wizards Intelligence III, Wizard Spell Penetration II
Requires One of: Any Greater Spell Focus or Past Life: Arcane Initiate




Level 18: Archmage V (1 AP):

Requires All of: Archmage IV, Improved Concentration IV, Wizard Energy of the Scholar III
Requires One of: Any 2nd Greater Spell Focus or Past Life: Arcane Initiate






With that nice looking PrE, I would play with pleasure :) Lot’s of decision. Lot’s of combination. And THAT is Archmage (not, some kind of Specialist)

(any comments are welcome ;) )

dunklezhan
10-11-2010, 05:56 AM
You've clearly worked very hard on this - and I'm guessing english isn't your first language, so even more kudos for that.

I suspect the Familiar you threw in at the end isn't likely to happen - I'd be inclined to take that out, its a whole other piece of development work that people have been asking for forever.

Other than that I'm in no position to evaluate whether your proposals are balanced or not, but I certainly agree with your sentiment - Archmage as it stands seems to me to be more of a specialist than a general amped-up general Wizard, as it's supposed to be (though it can be if you forget the SL-a lines and just go with the Archmage tiers so you can get bags of extra spellpoints).

I don't think Archmage is a bad prestige class as it stands. I think it forces you to make some choices depending on what you want to play, and the DC benefits may make some playstyles that were otherwise impractical more useful. Its not an instant 'win' PrE like Tempest, and to me that is a good thing.

Qualified to assess or not, I do like your suggestions and I certainly agree that the existing PrE isn't really an "archmage". On that basis then, I /sign, and give you such +1 as my greenis will allow, for taking the time, for laying it out well, and making a good point. I'll leave it to others to assess the validity/balance of the suggestion though.

Requiro
10-11-2010, 06:44 AM
You've clearly worked very hard on this - and I'm guessing english isn't your first language,You have right :) so even more kudos for that. Thank you

I suspect the Familiar you threw in at the end isn't likely to happen - I'd be inclined to take that out, its a whole other piece of development work that people have been asking for forever.Why not. PM get his pet. I know that every Wizard in game missing his Familiar. My main goal was to made this PrE something that no other Classes/ Rases/ PrE have. For fun and climat mostly.

Other than that I'm in no position to evaluate whether your proposals are balanced or not, but I certainly agree with your sentiment - Archmage as it stands seems to me to be more of a specialist than a general amped-up general Wizard, as it's supposed to be (though it can be if you forget the SL-a lines and just go with the Archmage tiers so you can get bags of extra spellpoints).But this is not supposed to happen. It's like Turbine talk about Half-Ork and give us elf. Sorry, but they should change it. At least in name: Specialist. And taking only Tiers of Archmage is ****. In the other word: "What a cool PrE - it give me more SP... Amazing" ;)

I don't think Archmage is a bad prestige class as it stands.It is bad as the prestige. About power of the PrE - yes you are right. It can be useful I think it forces you to make some choices depending on what you want to play, and the DC benefits may make some playstyles that were otherwise impractical more useful. Its not an instant 'win' PrE like Tempest, and to me that is a good thing.And I don't want to make it "I win button". I know that my proposal isn't balance yet, but for me it is much better then PrE that will come out 22.

Qualified to assess or not, I do like your suggestions and I certainly agree that the existing PrE isn't really an "archmage". On that basis then, I /sign, and give you such +1 as my greenis will allow, for taking the time, for laying it out well, and making a good point. I'll leave it to others to assess the validity/balance of the suggestion though.Thank you again. Hope that this give some solution to Turbine in what way they should go with this PrE

Comments are in Green

dunklezhan
10-11-2010, 07:07 AM
I worry that you've misunderstood me slightly on those points. I'll try to rephrase, I do have a tendency to use 100 words when 10 will do, not very easy for an english-as-a-second-language person to deal with:

Familiar-
as a summon like the PM, yes that would work I think, because the summon could have an aura which generated the effects you suggest.

Unpredictability is also not a hallmark of the Archmage, so I'd go as far as saying that rather than being a random effect as you've suggested, perhaps when you summon the familiar you pick the type - toad, raven, cat etc - and each type has one effect associated with it. This will be easier to implement after U7 as they're bringing in a choice of summons for the existing summon spells.

As a permanent familiar that can be called in town, possibly this would be a much bigger piece of work. Either way the devs would probably have to come up with new skins, animations and AI and all of that seems to be very time consuming indeed.

Please note: I'm not against the idea of a familiar, I just think trying to add it would delay implementation of the other changes you've described, or even a new PrE altogether.


On the existing PrE -
I am agreeing with you: Archmage as it stands seems to me to be a specialist PrE and it should be a generalist one.

I think that elements of the PrE as it stands do meet the goal of a generalist PrE, but then they 'spoil' it with the all the extras (SL-As in particular), as these clearly lead the player down a much more specialist path. I agree that this is not appropriate for a PrE labelled 'archmage'.

that is what I meant when I said that the PrE itself is not that bad as a PrE, regardless of the name.

Balance of your suggestion-
I wasn't intending to suggest that you were proposing an 'i win' button or that it was, or was not balanced - I'm absolutely not going to judge your suggestion on that basis, I've not played end game at all much less as an arcane. My only suggestion re balance is regarding the familiar (see above) but that's purely in the interests of making any changes to the PrE itself easier to bring in.


My own personal preference for the Archmage PrE would be to up the AP cost of each SL-As, but drop the spell school focus feat requirements, so that you can just take them if you have the spare points - thereby giving some true 'generalist' options and allowing the archmage to spend their feats on other abilities, and to respec without a feat exchange - an archmage should be flexible. at the moment they can't even realistically change their enhancements once they lock themselves into the specialist paths required.


Bah. Now I've gone and written another essay. OK, the short version:



Familiar - I want one too, but I think trying to bring one in that differs from existing mechanics for PM would cause unnecessary delays to any changes to the PrE.
Existing PrE - agreed its not appropriately named. But I think as a PrE on its own merits is not that bad.
Balance & usefulness of your suggestions - no real serious comment, I'm just not qualified. But I agree with your general point.

Requiro
10-11-2010, 07:39 AM
(...)

Familiar - I want one too, but I think trying to bring one in that differs from existing mechanics for PM would cause unnecessary delays to any changes to the PrE.
Existing PrE - agreed its not appropriately named. But I think as a PrE on its own merits is not that bad.
Balance & usefulness of your suggestions - no real serious comment, I'm just not qualified. But I agree with your general point.


I understand most of what you told me eariler :) But thanks for clarification. Maybe some misunderstanding was on fact that I don't know most idioms and other shortcut in practical language. Because of that, I use oficial tone in all my posts.

About Familiar without ability to summon them in Towns, everything is ready to bring them alive.. Option to choice what monster we want to summon will be implement in U7, (Turbine even made something what we can call Familiar : Lantern Archon in new Spell Summon Monster 4 http://forums.ddo.com/showpost.php?p=3286600&postcount=12) , give him no posibility to attack (not feat attack?), and random auras (like PrE Radiant Servant) when casting (like random effect from spell: Prismatic Ray). And DR 100/- , Saves: 100, HP:1000 and regenerate (like Troll). It will be indestructible. And if we want that he had to stay close to us, give them command of defend us (like Hierling have).

dunklezhan
10-11-2010, 07:56 AM
About Familiar without ability to summon them in Towns, everything is ready to bring them alive.. Option to choice what monster we want to summon will be implement in U7,

Agreed - if it follows existing mechanics (or mechanics that will exist after U7) then I think there's a more realistic chance of familiars making it into the game. That's the path of least resistance (idiom translation: that's the easiest way to get them into the game) and I see no reason not to follow it.

Trouble is, even with this approach the creatures appropriate for calling a 'familiar' aren't currently in the game.

Familiars, if PnP memory serves, should be small animals: cats, rats (not giant ones!), toads, ravens, owls, snakes etc - none of which currently exist in the game in terms of animations & models (maybe they could shrink the giant rats, but that's probably about it). Therefore even if using the coming U7 mechanics for summons, it would still be a lot of work to introduce 'familiars', particularly just for use by one PrE. The PM didn't get anything new to the game. What they got was the ability to summon mobs that already existed.

Creatures appropriate to be called 'Familiars' would be new creatures, and that's a fair bit of work for the devs.

I think what I'm getting is that personally I'd prefer to see familiars more generally available, not limited to a PrE, that way there's more justification for the dev time.

but I'd still like to see the existing Archmage PrE either renamed to reflect its true specialist nature, or changed to be more in tune with the 'arch' part of the name.

CrescentCalling_5
10-11-2010, 08:13 AM
I don't necessarily agree with some of your post, but +1 good sir simply for the sheer amount of effort put into this.

That being said, I don't think that the Spell-like abilities for Archmage I in your suggestion are actually useful...as in at all. Finger Fire and Acid Splash are eternal wands, which means any wizard/sorcerer/UMD character could bring out a wand and play Archmage if they desired. I think the spell-like abilities should be more levelled to what level 6 wizards can actually use.

that's the only specific thing I saw, for the rest I have to go with dunklezhan

Requiro
10-11-2010, 08:46 AM
(...)
Trouble is, even with this approach the creatures appropriate for calling a 'familiar' aren't currently in the game.
(...)

Well... yes. But for now there is no Familars at all :) So if they give us something that we could personalized I will be happy Wizard :)


I don't necessarily agree with some of your post, but +1 good sir simply for the sheer amount of effort put into this. Thanks

That being said, I don't think that the Spell-like abilities for Archmage I in your suggestion are actually useful...as in at all. I agree with you. But they are completely free. More for fun and if you don;t want waste Inventory slot for Ethernal Wands. This is ability like any other not very usefull in Tier 1 PrE (like Summon Skeleton in PM). But again: It is for Free. And with free cost. Finger Fire and Acid Splash are eternal wands, which means any wizard/sorcerer/UMD character could bring out a wand and play Archmage if they desired. I think the spell-like abilities should be more levelled to what level 6 wizards can actually use.That will be much more overpowered if that ability will be for free. You have Tier 1 SL-a and possibility to get MM - and this spell will work with Metamagic and do lots more damage on that level.

that's the only specific thing I saw, for the rest I have to go with dunklezhan
Thanks anyway for respond :)

Comments in Green

Requiro
10-13-2010, 05:59 AM
/BUMP

And post some summary about this proposal changes:

To get full PrE we have to spend:

5 feats (MT, 2x SF, 2x GSF or 2x Active Past Life). For now we have to spend 4 feats.
47 AP fr all (19 AP for PrE only, 28 for Prereq). For now 44 AP for all (18 AP for PrE only, 26 for Prereq)
Spell Points summary: (+) 400 - 375 - 150 - 175 = (-) 300. Same as today.


So we paid little more (1 more feat and 3 more AP) for this change in PrE but get very nice, playable, versatility presige class like Archmage should be in the beginning.

PS. Anyone can comments my proposal about balance?

Requiro
03-12-2011, 07:43 PM
Bump, because I made 2nd proposal. Enjoy :)

And btw: I have no hope of any change in that PrE. At least not in the year or so... :(