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kartos
10-10-2010, 03:43 AM
I was checking a few dwarf builds and noticed that dwarves get dwarven axes only if they have every martial proficiency which is completely wrong in my opinion as all dwarven warriors receive training with this weapon it should be given to any dwarf with 13 str and +1 BAB (so some characters may need to wait to level 2)

EustaceTrevelyan
10-10-2010, 04:03 AM
I was checking a few dwarf builds and noticed that dwarves get dwarven axes only if they have every martial proficiency which is completely wrong in my opinion as all dwarven warriors receive training with this weapon it should be given to any dwarf with 13 str and +1 BAB (so some characters may need to wait to level 2)

According to the logic of the game, if you pick a warrior class (Ftr, Barb, Ranger, Paladin), then one of the things you're granted is proficiency with all martial weapons (which for dwarves includes d-axes), since that would be part of your basic training. If you're a dwarf who doesn't pursue such a path, your experience with weapons is much more limited. However, if you are a dwarf in such a class, if you're under the effect of the Master's Touch spell, you'll recieve proficiency in any martial weapons you happen to be holding till next rest, which for dwarves includes d-axes. Best I can outside of a splash of fighter.

kartos
10-10-2010, 04:12 AM
so let's say that a dwarf was raised as a cleric but he grown to love the art of war so he trained with weapons he should get the dwarven axes!

Dandonk
10-10-2010, 04:16 AM
so let's say that a dwarf was raised as a cleric but he grown to love the art of war so he trained with weapons he should get the dwarven axes!

If he grew to love the art of war, wouldn't that translate into taking a level of fighter?

kartos
10-10-2010, 04:43 AM
no he was raised purely as cleric but he knows how to fight

fuzzy1guy
10-10-2010, 04:49 AM
The way i always played it was ANY dwarf of ANY class got Dax for free. Racial weapon. Part of their heritage.

It's right there in the name even... dwarven...


Now you wanna use anything else.. Yup. gonna need martial prof... but they always got basic dwarven axe skill for free.

Teharahma
10-10-2010, 04:52 AM
no he was raised purely as cleric but he knows how to fight

So you want a schizophrenic dwarf ?

One ego to destroy, and the other to mend ?

kartos
10-10-2010, 05:07 AM
So you want a schizophrenic dwarf ?

One ego to destroy, and the other to mend ?

lol it's not like believers today are any better (sorry for religious people) but ya that kind of dwarf sounds awesome



The way i always played it was ANY dwarf of ANY class got Dax for free. Racial weapon. Part of their heritage.

It's right there in the name even... dwarven...


Now you wanna use anything else.. Yup. gonna need martial prof... but they always got basic dwarven axe skill for free.


yep very true

Matuse
10-10-2010, 05:18 AM
no he was raised purely as cleric but he knows how to fight

Sounds like he invested in the Martial Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Axe feat.

Natashaelle
10-10-2010, 06:11 AM
Sounds like he invested in the Martial Weapon Proficiency: Dwarven Axe feat.

Exotic, not Martial -- which I kind of agree with, except that cleric is one of those classes where dorven ones probably should be able to get dorf axe without burning a feat.

Either as a specific enhancement line, or as a freebie for dorf clerics taking the future WarPriest I enhancement.

I don't think that all dorf clerics should get it completely free though -- some of them *are* actually heejlrz y'know... :D

breadstick
10-10-2010, 06:26 AM
no he was raised purely as cleric but he knows how to fight
and he also took an interest in spell-casting and lute-playing, but he didn't take any wiz/bard levels...

kartos
10-10-2010, 06:48 AM
clerics can fight but they can't sing if he was interested in singing he would have learned the bardic ways

fuzzy1guy
10-10-2010, 06:56 AM
Making it a 1-3ap enhancment for those without martial feat wouldn't be too bad.

They still wouldn't have all the feats backing it up. But they should still be able to get proficient without much cost at all. If not zero..

Racial weapon... come on...

Matuse
10-10-2010, 02:51 PM
Every weapon in the real world was designed by humans. I don't recall getting proficiency in any of them when I was born.

TheDearLeader
10-10-2010, 03:10 PM
Thank you for making me laugh today.

You either don't play pnp, or you have a *very* forgiving DM.

The point of "Skills" and "Feats" in the D&D world are so that you can flesh your character out, and give it some flavor and customization outside of what a class would normally see.

If you want to play a pure cleric, who has trained with his ancestral weapon, you pick Exotic : Dwarven Axe.

This represents your character's background and history, and dedication to learn something slightly outside of the norm. As characters have limited time to learn things, they also have limited feats and skills.

After all, if your dorf was off swinging an axe while other members of the clergy were focusing on healing better, then its only natural that you would gain Exotic: DA, while they gain Empower Healing.

Also, while I woudn't recommend it, one level of fighter would give you automatic proficiency, and allow you an additional fighter bonus feat, as well as 2 more hit points, Proficiency with Tower Shields, and a slightly higher BAB.

May the Sovereign Host guide you.

Waukeen
10-10-2010, 04:13 PM
I was checking a few dwarf builds and noticed that dwarves get dwarven axes only if they have every martial proficiency which is completely wrong in my opinion as all dwarven warriors receive training with this weapon it should be given to any dwarf with 13 str and +1 BAB (so some characters may need to wait to level 2)

You contradict yourself above. You say that all dwarven warriors recieve training with this weapon.
The game gives the proficiency for Dwaven axe to ALL Martial Classed dwarves.
Dwarven wizards should not have Dwarven axe as a free proficiency.

The other story line that you posted could be achieved with 1 ftr lvl or taking the proficiency.

FlyingTurtle
10-10-2010, 04:21 PM
and he also took an interest in spell-casting and lute-playing, but he didn't take any wiz/bard levels...

He also had a keen interest in touching and feeling up other people while pretending to heal them, but didn't take any Paladin levels.

Pugsley
10-10-2010, 04:22 PM
If he grew to love the art of war, wouldn't that translate into taking a level of fighter?

No, that would mean a Cleric with the War Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm). :)

TheDearLeader
10-10-2010, 04:46 PM
No, that would mean a Cleric with the War Domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm). :)

Yes yes, Domains.

Clerics have been harping for them for forever. Sadly, probably not going to happen.

Oh, or if we want to be really fancy...

I looked up the Deities for Ebberon. None of them, regardless of Domain, have Dwarven Axe as their weapon. As can be read here, .pdf by the way (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Deities.pdf). Pages 15 and 16.

Rakian_Knight
10-10-2010, 06:20 PM
no he was raised purely as cleric but he knows how to fight

This would translate into something that DDO doesn't have but D&D does, Cleric Domains. One of the domains is War and it grants a martial weapon prof. for a single weapon as a bonus feat. I'd push for Cleric Domains over giving a dwarven ax to every dwarf.

I see this thread being brought up again when Druids (if they ever come) are released because they don't have martial weapon prof.

TheDearLeader
10-10-2010, 08:09 PM
This would translate into something that DDO doesn't have but D&D does, Cleric Domains. One of the domains is War and it grants a martial weapon prof. for a single weapon as a bonus feat. I'd push for Cleric Domains over giving a dwarven ax to every dwarf.

Um. Read the post right above yours. It gives you the Weapon Proficiency related to your Deity. Its a specific weapon, and its irregardless of whether or not its Martial or Exotic.

sephiroth1084
10-10-2010, 08:47 PM
Look at it this way:

If you grew up in feudal japan and were trained as a Buddhist priest you wouldn't know how to use a katana unless you'd spent time actively training with it. Dwarven clerics aren't necessarily focused on combat, so why should they be proficient in the use of a difficulty, unwieldy weapon?

AZgreentea
10-10-2010, 09:14 PM
Look at it this way:

If you grew up in feudal japan and were trained as a Buddhist priest you wouldn't know how to use a katana unless you'd spent time actively training with it. Dwarven clerics aren't necessarily focused on combat, so why should they be proficient in the use of a difficulty, unwieldy weapon?
This.

Just because the weapon is cultural to you, dosent mean you have training in it. I have been an army soldier for 6 years. That dosent mean I have anything more than a really basic idea (and I am counting what I saw on the history channel) about how to drive a tank or target and fire the main gun.

The Thompson Sub Machine gun is an Iconic American weapon, how many people in the United States (without training on it) can just pick it up, load it, and fire it?

PopeJual
10-10-2010, 09:17 PM
This is similar to how the other "racial" weapons work. The martial weapons are made one step easier to become simple weapons and the exotic weapons are made one step easier to become martial weapons.

Why is this confusing or upsetting?

Freeman
10-10-2010, 09:18 PM
I'm from Alabama, yet I somehow managed to NOT learn how to play a banjo. I'm also not proficient in all Martial weapons, just Huntin' ones.(Yes, you have to have to spell it like that)

sephiroth1084
10-10-2010, 09:42 PM
I'm from Alabama, yet I somehow managed to NOT learn how to play a banjo. I'm also not proficient in all Martial weapons, just Huntin' ones.(Yes, you have to have to spell it like that)
I didn't even know there was supposed to be a 't' in there. Always thought it was 'hun'in'. :p

fuzzy1guy
10-11-2010, 05:07 PM
Yeah i see where you're comming from to be aginst giving it to them for free.. Free? Oh no. easy button. boo hoo.


Yet as an elf i get longsword and rapier martial weapon profs for free... Just by being an elf. :cool:

PopeJual
10-11-2010, 06:03 PM
Yeah i see where you're comming from to be aginst giving it to them for free.. Free? Oh no. easy button. boo hoo.


Yet as an elf i get longsword and rapier martial weapon profs for free... Just by being an elf. :cool:

What do Fighters, Rangers, Paladins, Bards and Barbarians (and splashes) get for being an Elf?
Nothing.

What do Clerics, Rogues, Wizards, FvS, Monks and Sorcs get for being a Dwarf?
Nothing. (Unless they splash Ftr, Rgr, Pal or Bbn.)

Each racial weapon gets easy-buttoned by one level. Exotic goes to martial. Martial goes to Simple. This should not be complicated or confusing.

Notajedi
10-11-2010, 06:15 PM
clerics can fight but they can't sing if he was interested in singing he would have learned the bardic ways

He sings hymnals and stuff in his religious building. Gregorian Chants. My dwarven cleric should have Dwarven Axes and Bard Abilities.

I also dabbled in making coins appear out of my kids ears, I need magic user.

My kids have locked the bathroom door and I picked the lock. Rogue!!

Tholar
10-11-2010, 06:46 PM
Somebody didn't add money to the donation box, "religious fury" (rage)

I follow a religion that practices self-flagellation, "toughness feat"

I was a politician in Chicago, "bluff skill +10"

My mother was a halfling, "half-halfling"

sephiroth1084
10-11-2010, 07:25 PM
Somebody didn't add money to the donation box, "religious fury" (rage)

I follow a religion that practices self-flagellation, "toughness feat"

I was a politician in Chicago, "bluff skill +10"

My mother was a halfling, "half-halfling"
Politician in NY, "sleight of hand & bluff +15."

Lorien_the_First_One
10-11-2010, 07:33 PM
I was checking a few dwarf builds and noticed that dwarves get dwarven axes only if they have every martial proficiency which is completely wrong in my opinion as all dwarven warriors receive training with this weapon it should be given to any dwarf with 13 str and +1 BAB (so some characters may need to wait to level 2)

Correct, all dwarven WARRIORS...and they do get it now.

What's being done is consistant with PnP rules and there is no good reason to change it.

babacadabra
11-05-2010, 10:48 AM
They need to let pure dwarven rogues get dwarven axes. they give elves/halflings rapiers, but dwarves have to burn a feat or splash another class and lose capstone.

i can understand wiz/sorcs not getting it, but they need to let dwarve rogues get axes.

TheDearLeader
11-05-2010, 10:59 AM
They need to let pure dwarven rogues get dwarven axes. they give elves/halflings rapiers, but dwarves have to burn a feat or splash another class and lose capstone.

i can understand wiz/sorcs not getting it, but they need to let dwarve rogues get axes.

First... why are you necroing this thread? And making me further necro it by responding?

Second... perhaps you've missed something.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Rogue

Rogues always have Rapiers. Your Dwarven Rogue 20 can use Rapiers. Its not a racial thing, the class just... gets them.

And read the enhancements for Elves and Halflings. Only Elves get extra rapier damage - Halflings would do as much damage as a Dwarf. Actually less, since they are -2 Str at character creation.

So they don't *need* to do anything just because there's a part of the game you don't like. There are some classes/races that may have better synergy, because all classes and races are different. Sure, Elven Rogue 20 may be better Rapier damage. Truthfully, he probably does better damage with Khopeshes after burning a feat for them, but w/e. Point is, he'd have 2 less starting Con than your Dwarf.

Different races have different tradeoffs. Otherwise, why bother having different races?

FuzzyDuck81
11-05-2010, 10:59 AM
This.

Just because the weapon is cultural to you, dosent mean you have training in it. I have been an army soldier for 6 years. That dosent mean I have anything more than a really basic idea (and I am counting what I saw on the history channel) about how to drive a tank or target and fire the main gun.

The Thompson Sub Machine gun is an Iconic American weapon, how many people in the United States (without training on it) can just pick it up, load it, and fire it?

Yeah, i'm english & dont have any skill at all in longbows :(

CrushingInklings
11-05-2010, 11:03 AM
I can see not giving it to dwarf rogues @ the start but maybe they could add it to assassin 2 like they did for dwarf bard warchanter 2.

CrushingInklings
11-05-2010, 11:12 AM
First... why are you necroing this thread? And making me further necro it by responding?

Second... perhaps you've missed something.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Rogue

Rogues always have Rapiers. Your Dwarven Rogue 20 can use Rapiers. Its not a racial thing, the class just... gets them.

And read the enhancements for Elves and Halflings. Only Elves get extra rapier damage - Halflings would do as much damage as a Dwarf. Actually less, since they are -2 Str at character creation.

So they don't *need* to do anything just because there's a part of the game you don't like. There are some classes/races that may have better synergy, because all classes and races are different. Sure, Elven Rogue 20 may be better Rapier damage. Truthfully, he probably does better damage with Khopeshes after burning a feat for them, but w/e. Point is, he'd have 2 less starting Con than your Dwarf.

Different races have different tradeoffs. Otherwise, why bother having different races?

Phirst) Responding to a thread that was last responded to less then a month ago is not necroing.

Bee) Halflings get so much extra racial damage for backstabs that the -2 str doesn't mater and they infact do A LOT more damage then dwarfs. If Dwarf rogues got Daxes for free they would still do less damage then a halfing using repairs in fights that lasted over a minute.

babacadabra
11-05-2010, 11:20 AM
First... why are you necroing this thread? And making me further necro it by responding?

Second... perhaps you've missed something.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Rogue

Rogues always have Rapiers. Your Dwarven Rogue 20 can use Rapiers. Its not a racial thing, the class just... gets them.

And read the enhancements for Elves and Halflings. Only Elves get extra rapier damage - Halflings would do as much damage as a Dwarf. Actually less, since they are -2 Str at character creation.

So they don't *need* to do anything just because there's a part of the game you don't like. There are some classes/races that may have better synergy, because all classes and races are different. Sure, Elven Rogue 20 may be better Rapier damage. Truthfully, he probably does better damage with Khopeshes after burning a feat for them, but w/e. Point is, he'd have 2 less starting Con than your Dwarf.

Different races have different tradeoffs. Otherwise, why bother having different races?

Well i cannot make you do anything. you responding is on you. This thread is in suggestions, so it is a suggestion.

This game is very different now than it was years ago. for example racial toughness wasnt available for all the races a few years ago, i know dwarves got it possibly warforged. yes different races have trade offs. dwarves are tough. then why give drow a racial toughness, because they arent tough; or even halflings. maybe offer it to just classes that use a con as their action points. like you said different races have trade offs.

the point is rogues get some martial weapons already, and if a rogue is a dwarf i SUGGEST they let him have his axe as the class does possess some martial weapons. perhaps make it an action point for assassin , like they did with warchanter 2 granting bards a weapon of choice. Id say an assasin dwarf should be able to use a racial weapon. he is as assasin after all.

CrushingInklings
11-05-2010, 11:28 AM
Correct, all dwarven WARRIORS...and they do get it now.

What's being done is consistant with PnP rules and there is no good reason to change it.

Sooooo much is not done by PnP rules in this game. That argument is laughable. Giving dwarf rogues the feat for free would put them closer to being on par with other races who play rogue. There really is no reason not to give it to them IMO. They still wouldn't be near the top in damage and certainly wouldn't make them overpowers like some others(not you) suggested. Giving them this feat would only open up more viable options at end game making it less static then it is. The fact that 99% of GOOD end game TWF toons are using Khopheses is boring. That alone should be good reason to change it.

Noctus
11-05-2010, 12:10 PM
so let's say that a dwarf was raised as a cleric but he grown to love the art of war so he trained with weapons he should get the dwarven axes!

Like i always told my pen&paper group, You can have the nicest backstory in the world, but if you want relevant boni from it:
--> Take the multiclass level!
--> Take the feat!


No sobstory gonna give you freebies. :rolleyes:

TheDearLeader
11-05-2010, 03:14 PM
Phirst) Responding to a thread that was last responded to less then a month ago is not necroing.

Bee) Halflings get so much extra racial damage for backstabs that the -2 str doesn't mater and they infact do A LOT more damage then dwarfs. If Dwarf rogues got Daxes for free they would still do less damage then a halfing using repairs in fights that lasted over a minute.

Well maybe dwarves just don't lend themselves to being rogues, just like Halflings have a tough time Intimitanking the Epic DQ. Shucks gee golly, roll something else. Rogues get just as many feats as Paladins, yet a fair share of Deeps Pallies manage to find an extra feat slot for an exotic weapon.

Either Rogue 20 is strong enough all by its lonesome, or its not. If you like it, stay pure class. If you don't like it, multi, get the feat, or better yet - ask for the things rogues already have, like the capstones and PrEs, to be improved.

Don't ask for a second-tier melee (based on BAB, not Deeps) to get an Exotic Weapon because all other rogues get 3 of 23 Martial Weapons. And yes, I know its Martial. To full BAB progression Dwarves.

October 12th to November 5th without getting a single response, in the Suggestions forum no less? Its casting Raise Thread as a 9th level Poster.


Well i cannot make you do anything. you responding is on you. This thread is in suggestions, so it is a suggestion.

This game is very different now than it was years ago. for example racial toughness wasnt available for all the races a few years ago, i know dwarves got it possibly warforged. yes different races have trade offs. dwarves are tough. then why give drow a racial toughness, because they arent tough; or even halflings. maybe offer it to just classes that use a con as their action points. like you said different races have trade offs.

the point is rogues get some martial weapons already, and if a rogue is a dwarf i SUGGEST they let him have his axe as the class does possess some martial weapons. perhaps make it an action point for assassin , like they did with warchanter 2 granting bards a weapon of choice. Id say an assasin dwarf should be able to use a racial weapon. he is as assasin after all.

Warchanter 2 gets it because theirs is a martial PrE. Not that it particularly matters, since most Warchanters I see already have two levels of Paladin, Fighter, or Barbarian.

"He's an assassin, so he should use an exotic, non-light weapon." <- Did I quote that correctly? The two Martial weapons that rogues get (melee) are Short Sword and Rapier. Both Light weapons. Light = Rogue.

Its like getting sneak attack damage with a ballista. Its a joke. If anything, the PrE could get an increased crit multiplier while using light weapons. Rapiers would be sexy for any race if they were x3 Crit.

Edit: Also, this thread was mainly about a Cleric. Rogues, or a specific PrE, getting Dwarven Axes should probably get branched off to another thread.

Junts
11-05-2010, 03:20 PM
Exotic, not Martial -- which I kind of agree with, except that cleric is one of those classes where dorven ones probably should be able to get dorf axe without burning a feat.

Either as a specific enhancement line, or as a freebie for dorf clerics taking the future WarPriest I enhancement.

I don't think that all dorf clerics should get it completely free though -- some of them *are* actually heejlrz y'know... :D

its martial, for a dwarf.

This means not only do classes that get all Martial profs get it for free, but that it interacts with things like Master's Touch and Warchanter II whcih can provide proficiency in any/all martial weapons but have no interaction with exotic weapons. Dwarves do not get EWP: Dwarven axe for free. They get MWP: Dwarven Axe. If, like warchanter, warpriest provides some access to martial weapons (specific ones, or all of them), then dwarven warpriests will automatically get access. If dwarf melee got free EWP: Dwarven axe, that actually wouldn't work.