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View Full Version : Lowering the ML of ToD rings.



SINIBYTE
10-07-2010, 09:56 AM
It's often been compared that TOD rings are the equivalent of GS for monks. So why do monks have to wait until level 18 to wear their twink gear when TRing while everyone else gets their equivalent at level 12? It's not like people are running their first life in TOD below level. Changing the ML on TOD rings would have no effect on game balance for first lives, and would benefit TR's (particularly monks). Given the flip-flop-lets-change-everything-about-monks-each-update, with constant reincarnating, how about you throw us a bone here?

voodoogroves
10-07-2010, 09:58 AM
/signed

Really tempted not to bother with farming ToD on life #1 since it comes sooooo late.

Bacab
10-07-2010, 09:58 AM
/signed

I'd like ML 11 (like other accessories)

But I would understand Making it 12 like a weapon.

Question though...thoughts on needing to "cleanse" a Ring if its seen as an Accessory?

Bunker
10-07-2010, 10:14 AM
IMHO, perhaps ToD ring min lvls should not be lowered. Instead, GS should be raised.

voodoogroves
10-07-2010, 10:15 AM
IMHO, perhaps ToD ring min lvls should not be lowered. Instead, GS should be raised.

Possibly, but that's not likely to happen.

I wouldn't mind seeing the ML at 15 for the rings even. No reason to go crazy and drop it to 11, but by the time I'm 18 on the first life it is hard for me to NOT hit 20 quickly.

Bunker
10-07-2010, 10:18 AM
Possibly, but that's not likely to happen.

I wouldn't mind seeing the ML at 15 for the rings even. No reason to go crazy and drop it to 11, but by the time I'm 18 on the first life it is hard for me to NOT hit 20 quickly.

Well one thing is certain. If the min lvl of the rings are lowered, it will be neccessary to lower thier paired gear, ie. belts and necklaces.

blitzschlag
10-07-2010, 10:19 AM
IMHO, perhaps ToD ring min lvls should not be lowered. Instead, GS should be raised.

hmm, yeah. usually quests-related items have the same or near the same level as the quest they drop in.

so green steels should have 15 as minimum levels as the ingredients needed do only drop in lvl 16 quests (and some in the raid itself)...

Lorien_the_First_One
10-07-2010, 10:24 AM
hmm, yeah. usually quests-related items have the same or near the same level as the quest they drop in.

so green steels should have 15 as minimum levels as the ingredients needed do only drop in lvl 16 quests (and some in the raid itself)...

When GS game out L13 characters routinely ran the quest raid.

Soleran
10-07-2010, 10:29 AM
Yes lower the ml of rings to lvl 12! I mean if people can validate the use of TIII gs items not being overpowered I hardly see how 2 burst rings would be verpowered at said lvls.

blitzschlag
10-07-2010, 10:29 AM
When GS game out L13 characters routinely ran the quest raid.

while i did shroud with lvl 13 too it was not the point of my last post...

sirgog
10-07-2010, 10:32 AM
hmm, yeah. usually quests-related items have the same or near the same level as the quest they drop in.

so green steels should have 15 as minimum levels as the ingredients needed do only drop in lvl 16 quests (and some in the raid itself)...

When GS came out, the weapons were min level 8. After all, they were just +5 weapons...

Yeah, THAT got fixed quite quickly.

Darkrok
10-07-2010, 10:38 AM
/signed

If ToD rings are a monk's fix for not having Greensteel then they should be available at the same level as greensteel is for other classes. And making the matched accessories available at level would not be necessary. While the set bonuses are great they're not the reason that monks need ToD rings. This change is specifically aimed at giving TR monks 'greensteel' at greensteel levels. Leave the set bonuses and nice other accessories out of it.

rimble
10-07-2010, 11:02 AM
/signed

If ToD rings are a monk's fix for not having Greensteel then they should be available at the same level as greensteel is for other classes. And making the matched accessories available at level would not be necessary. While the set bonuses are great they're not the reason that monks need ToD rings. This change is specifically aimed at giving TR monks 'greensteel' at greensteel levels. Leave the set bonuses and nice other accessories out of it.

And just to be clear: everyone benefits from this. I'd say Monks benefit the most, but this certainly wouldn't be a Monk-only change. I also don't see the necessary connection that the other items be lowered as well. Of course...that's just weird...to have the raid items lower level than the items that drop out of regular quests...but, meh...

Honestly, I'd rather just see some weaker lower level rings introduced.

Hendrik
10-07-2010, 11:13 AM
Well one thing is certain. If the min lvl of the rings are lowered, it will be neccessary to lower thier paired gear, ie. belts and necklaces.

As well as lower the min lvl to enter the area.

Irinis
10-07-2010, 11:21 AM
What I'd like to see is a lower ML on the boots. It's completely possible to flag at 16 or 17, then have to wait a level to wear the boots!

SINIBYTE
10-08-2010, 11:59 AM
/signed

If ToD rings are a monk's fix for not having Greensteel then they should be available at the same level as greensteel is for other classes. And making the matched accessories available at level would not be necessary. While the set bonuses are great they're not the reason that monks need ToD rings. This change is specifically aimed at giving TR monks 'greensteel' at greensteel levels. Leave the set bonuses and nice other accessories out of it.

I agree. They could leave the other accessories ML18, but the rings themselves aren't gaembreaking in anyway. And it would give TRs (because first lives won;t have them) the ability to use them at "greensteel levels".

voodoogroves
10-08-2010, 12:06 PM
Honestly, I'd rather just see some weaker lower level rings introduced.

I'd be game for this too.

I kinda like the Red Fens for the sheer reason that there's good loot, it's BTC and it has enough flavor to it that it makes it something you should consider. Heck, my sorc is staring at NOT wearing a Minos Legens and instead using one of those head-slot items. Seriously.

Choices like that are good, I think.

Xeraphim
10-08-2010, 12:11 PM
IMHO, perhaps ToD ring min lvls should not be lowered. Instead, GS should be raised.

TRs would hate you SO much.

Edit: See next post for a repetition of my proposition in MOD 7 or 8 or whenever it was.

Xeraphim
10-08-2010, 12:14 PM
Honestly, I'd rather just see some weaker lower level rings introduced.

I'd be totally fine with the GS Crafting Rules on GS Rings too, treated as weapons only with Material Dominion, and as gear otherwise. That would keep the affinity for stat consolidation on the ToD Rings while rebalancing the classes in DDO.

ToD Rings at Level 12 for a TR would be amazing... perhaps too amazing. The massive grind for both kinds of rings would be atrocious, but Monks need something to do in The Shroud.

Additionally, with GS Rings granting effects like Min II and Lightning Strike, we'd see more love on the DPS charts.

Coding that may be problematic, as was noted back in the early days of Mod 7. Let's see what the Devs try to do with it.


Personally I'd be fine with a retool of some effect systems so long as we could get the basics done. I do like the Burst effects on ToD Rings, so am fine with a 1-shard Ring for The Shroud(perhaps you choose which tier to charge it with, determining the power of the effect)... but would also like to see something similar to the Triple Positive on one(Good Blast and Holy Burst with Raise Dead as a clicky). Mineral II could lose a minor effect(slicing), and other enchantments could as well so long as the major effects could be upheld(Dust proc, Lightning proc).

Until we get more clarification on what exactly can and can't be done with Monks in general, we'll continue to spout blind conjecture.

Uska
10-08-2010, 12:17 PM
Yes would proably work harder on my rings before I tr'd again if this was so.

t0r012
10-08-2010, 12:22 PM
Heck Metaline of pure goods if you can find them are ML 14 when everyone else can get at 10 (8for RR)
Why shouldn't we have to wait for level 18 to use our equivalent to ML 12 GS?

Monk requires patience , just meditate on what you have learned.

Dragavon
10-08-2010, 12:23 PM
IMHO, perhaps ToD ring min lvls should not be lowered. Instead, GS should be raised.

GS, Shroud and the crafting grind should never have been added to DDO. The game would have been so much better and easier to balance withouth GS weapons/gear.

RTN
10-08-2010, 12:26 PM
hmm, yeah. usually quests-related items have the same or near the same level as the quest they drop in.

so green steels should have 15 as minimum levels as the ingredients needed do only drop in lvl 16 quests (and some in the raid itself)...

While I dearly loved getting my GS weapons on my TR at a ridiculously low level, you're absolutely correct. GS items (especially weapons) should have a higher ML.

It's absolutely ridiculous that I could use my GS weapons (Shroud) before I could use my GH Tor dragonscale armor.

ToD related gear should stay at its current ML.

t0r012
10-08-2010, 12:28 PM
GS, Shroud and the crafting grind should never have been added to DDO. The game would have been so much better and easier to balance withouth GS weapons/gear.

agreed.
way, way over done.

Was there a huge mass exidous going on when they introduced GS to try and bring people back?
thats is the only reason I can think of to have such a game breaking component added to the game.

Shyver
10-08-2010, 12:35 PM
Don't reduce the min level of the current rings. Just introduce a set of rings that have just the basic damage modifiers on them. (Fire, Frost, Electric, ect) Hell if you wanted they could even work like a lot of the new loot does and make them upgradable from Base to bursting to shroud effect (Flaming-Flaming Burst-Incineration, ect), using the system they use now for upgradable gear and make the shroud effect epic.

Dragavon
10-08-2010, 12:35 PM
agreed.
way, way over done.

Was there a huge mass exidous going on when they introduced GS to try and bring people back?
thats is the only reason I can think of to have such a game breaking component added to the game.

It has been speculated that Turbine knew they would not be able to bring out any new content after Shroud for a long time because of the legal tangle with Atari. So they added the Shroud crafting as a time sink, so players would have something to do for a long long time.

Shyver
10-08-2010, 12:39 PM
Heck Metaline of pure goods if you can find them are ML 14 when everyone else can get at 10 (8for RR)
Why shouldn't we have to wait for level 18 to use our equivalent to ML 12 GS?


I know they are a pain for some to get. But monks can get Metaline of Pure Good at level 8. I'm sure you knew that, but wanted to point out the oversight.

http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Unlimited/Items/Weapons/DevoutHandwraps.jpg

Bobthesponge
10-08-2010, 12:42 PM
/notsigned


IMHO, perhaps ToD ring min lvls should not be lowered. Instead, GS should be raised.

This.

Delt
10-08-2010, 12:48 PM
/not signed

Errr..because it's just not really needed.

And I kinda flip flop on the ml of GS weapons...it probably makes more sense to up the ml to 16, but it's a little late for that.

Khurse
10-08-2010, 12:49 PM
Heck Metaline of pure goods if you can find them are ML 14 when everyone else can get at 10 (8for RR)
Why shouldn't we have to wait for level 18 to use our equivalent to ML 12 GS?

Monk requires patience , just meditate on what you have learned.

??

Metalline of pure good handwraps are ML 12. (10 RR)
Metalline of pure good weapons are ML 6. (4 RR)

But /signed for the TOD rings as ML 11/12 (probably should count sa weapons, but don't know if they're coded like that)
I also would love to see some more GS effects available on the, but am willing to admit something like LS might be a bit overpowered. (But maybe not..)

shagath
10-08-2010, 12:51 PM
Yeah. It's strange to see ml11/12 items beating most of epic items.

If TOD rings would have lower ML, of course belts/necklaces should too. It would break the whole game. For example Superior Freeze VIII(+75% polar ray) at vale..

GS should be higher, epic gear better and that's about it.

Khurse
10-08-2010, 12:57 PM
If TOD rings would have lower ML, of course belts/necklaces should too. Superior Freeze VIII at lower level is too unbalanced. +75% polar ray gh.. It would break the whole game. GS should be higher, epic gear better and that's about it.

Why should the belts/necklaces have a lower min level as well?
The TOD rings are stat buffs and (for Monks) the equivalent of Greensteel weapons.
Tod sets are/will be designed around the Third tier (level 18) PRE benefits.

TPICKRELL
10-08-2010, 01:53 PM
It's off the wall a bit, but I still think the simplest answer is to give us better high level named wraps.

To make everything fair, I would vote for giving us named wraps that only appear on the X-20th Shroud completion lists. One named wrap aimed at boss beating (Min II equivalent) and one aimed at trash (Lit II equivalent)... Not craftable wraps, just named wraps that provide similar damage capacity to the two most popular greensteel lines.

Heck, I'd even settle for plain +5 Metaline of Pure Goods... I already have devouts on all 3 of my monk toons, but it doesn't feel fair being stuck with +2 Metaline of Pure Goods when everyone else has MIN II's or Epics waving around.

By making them a Shroud 20th completion list item, they will be available at about the same time as a first toon would get his greensteal weapon, thus not affecting the current game balance... such as it is.

Lorien_the_First_One
10-08-2010, 01:59 PM
While I dearly loved getting my GS weapons on my TR at a ridiculously low level, you're absolutely correct. GS items (especially weapons) should have a higher ML.

It's absolutely ridiculous that I could use my GS weapons (Shroud) before I could use my GH Tor dragonscale armor.

ToD related gear should stay at its current ML.

Frost Burst crafting is even more broken for low levels.

Veriden
10-08-2010, 02:11 PM
The belts/necklaces should be lvl 15 or 17 by their respective abilities, but the rings should be lowered.

Essenstially the rings are green steel weapons (crappy ones but still.) You can put +6 stat on a gs weapon and +1 exc. stat on a gs weapon and a +2 exc. stat on that same gs. So basically...tod = gs weapons and should be lvl 12 to be fair to monks.

Keep in mind, we forgo +2 ex stat to get a burst (Which is a teir 2 ability unlike exc stat +2 which is teir 3)

TheDearLeader
10-08-2010, 02:15 PM
One has to be a Minimum Level of 16 to get ported to Amrath.

So, it would seem that level 16 would be a good time to equip these various ring/belt sets.

It seems that the ML:18 was put on there arbitrarily, because up until that point, you would not gain the PrE Tier III Specific effects of said items.

I've ran 3/4 of my highbies through Amrath at level 17, received items, and could not equip them until I got more XP. Seems silly that I was capable of doing the quests to get the loot, but not to actually wear it.

Of course, I really like this content pack, so I probably know a little bit more than the average level 16-17 about running these quests. Same could be said for Shroud - just because people are waiting until 17-20 to run Shroud and craft, that's on them.

So... yes, signed. My magic number would be 16 for the rings and their corresponding belts/necklaces. If you can enter the area, you should be capable of wearing the gear you collect from it.

Xeraphim
10-08-2010, 04:36 PM
This thread is full of wild conjecture.
Apologies, Devs. This is going to be a tough one.


Edit: I do agree with the frustration at standard Metalline of PG weapons being ML 6(Metalline: lvl 4, Pure Goat: lvl 2) and Handwarps being either ML 8(Devouts, an extremely rare and very very hard to get set at level) or ML 12(Standard chest loot). The Handwarp tables need some tweaks.

Xeraphim
10-08-2010, 04:42 PM
The belts/necklaces should be lvl 15 or 17 by their respective abilities, but the rings should be lowered.

Essenstially the rings are green steel weapons (crappy ones but still.) You can put +6 stat on a gs weapon and +1 exc. stat on a gs weapon and a +2 exc. stat on that same gs. So basically...tod = gs weapons and should be lvl 12 to be fair to monks.

Keep in mind, we forgo +2 ex stat to get a burst (Which is a teir 2 ability unlike exc stat +2 which is teir 3)

I can see that for TRs the necklaces being lowered would be nice, since the requisite of doing ToD happens to be at least level 20 or level 19 as a TR1 or better. The rings are still quite a bit more powerful than they ought to be for a level 12 item.

Yes, we do negate the ability to get +2 Exceptional to a stat just to get our proper Shroud DPS, and therefore in the long run not only lose a Proc effect for 600 damage or so, but also that +2 to a stat.

fuzzy1guy
10-08-2010, 04:49 PM
Why?

For the same reason all the nice bits from IQ are ml18 too...

daniel7
10-08-2010, 08:19 PM
It's often been compared that TOD rings are the equivalent of GS for monks. So why do monks have to wait until level 18 to wear their twink gear when TRing while everyone else gets their equivalent at level 12? It's not like people are running their first life in TOD below level. Changing the ML on TOD rings would have no effect on game balance for first lives, and would benefit TR's (particularly monks). Given the flip-flop-lets-change-everything-about-monks-each-update, with constant reincarnating, how about you throw us a bone here?

Perhaps the ML of TOD rings should be lowered a bit but more importantly is that the ML of GS should be raised. How about this:

ML 12 for Tier I GS
ML 14 for Tier II GS
ML 16 for Tier III GS and TOD rings

Samadhi
10-08-2010, 08:26 PM
ML 16 sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Right on par with where the raids are where monks will need to bypass DR. Makes sense to me.


(Of course, I think the more reasonable thing is to increase the drop rate on metalline of PG handwraps so that we don't have to run an endgame raid just to be useful).

TheDearLeader
10-09-2010, 01:30 PM
ML 16 sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Right on par with where the raids are where monks will need to bypass DR. Makes sense to me.


(Of course, I think the more reasonable thing is to increase the drop rate on metalline of PG handwraps so that we don't have to run an endgame raid just to be useful).

That's monk specific. More than just monks are posting in this thread :) But yes, ML 16 seems appropriate in all ways.

SINIBYTE
10-11-2010, 10:40 AM
This thread is full of wild conjecture.
Apologies, Devs. This is going to be a tough one.


Edit: I do agree with the frustration at standard Metalline of PG weapons being ML 6(Metalline: lvl 4, Pure Goat: lvl 2) and Handwarps being either ML 8(Devouts, an extremely rare and very very hard to get set at level) or ML 12(Standard chest loot). The Handwarp tables need some tweaks.

Yeh the handwrap situation is getting tired...