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Veriden
10-06-2010, 03:24 AM
Now I know we've all been told no, this won't ever happen. Generally because the devs enjoy nerfing or giving useless abilities to the monks of this game. But in the shower (as it seems my brain only works with scolding hot water.) I came up with an idea.

Instead of giving us the normal list of gs weapon enchantments give monk green steel handwraps. (don't say it can't be done because we have gs cloaks, gloves, and underwear) Take out the ability to dual shard into lit2/min2 and the like and instead give us tier 1 properties (pick 1 from the normal list add the anarchic(sp) and axiomatic(sp). Essentially any weapon enhancement of +1 or +2 value for tier 1. For tier 2 any +3 enhancement, and for tier 3 any +4 and up enhancement (excluding vorpal, paralyzing, and banishing of course.)

I know this is a sin, but monks would be able to craft their 'boss beaters' (imagine that, just like every other class.) So in theory you could have a set of +5 green steel handwraps of Holy, evil outsider bane and metalline (and you'd be doing comparable dps to base gs min2 other weapons with out being stuck with those (insert distasteful insult here) devout handwraps.

If need be b/c handwraps aren't really a 'weapon' give them taint of shavarath. i'm sure plenty of monks would make the 20 completions to cleanse them.

I'd be willing to elaborate how to incorperate them to a dev if requested. This is the vague overview to just toss the idea out there.

blitzschlag
10-06-2010, 03:29 AM
you know you can already have 4 elemental bursts when attacking as a monk

your idea would not do more (except the more basedamage). but it would include a whole workover of the greensteel system with unforseeable consequences for all (knowing how eager turbine is with testing stuff in the last years)...

Veriden
10-06-2010, 03:50 AM
The primary reason for the gs hand wraps idea is so the monks can use something else for their tod rings. A good portion of a monk's dps comes from items that could be better placed. For example exceptional stats on tod rings like every other class gets to do, a monk has to sacrifice that privledge to have something better than complete trash dps when compared to other melee classes.

If all else fails, give monks 2 more skill points per level and push them into the specialist class list.

I mean really we have a list of useless abilities. The one that ticks me off the most being timeless body. Lvl 17 ability to prevent rising as an undead? No thanks. Ninja spy gets water walking which would be awesome sauce if it actually worked even though it's use is novelty at best. Light monks get 1 minute party buffs. Which I personally find insulting. A lvl 20 monk saying 'ok here you go guys, 1 minute of medicore enhancement. It would be nice if it were say 1 minute per 5 levels of monk. 4 minutes is reasonable with out being game breaking.

Don't get me started on the dark monk's curses...never mind they don't work when it counts against the raid bosses blanket immunities. The lightning curse wouldn't be so bad if it didn't share tod cool down.

I'm pretty sure ninja-spy 3 when its announced will have something like 'jump spell' and/or 'tumble spell' b/c ninjas by class in pnp have advanced acrobatics and great jumping ability. (total +10 at lvl 18 not counting skill points/stats/items/spells) oh and another 2d6 sneak attack.

I don't care for an increase on the monk's base damage that normally happens with gs items, just let weapon enhancements stay on the weapon slots so I can reasonably make better use of my tod rings. (I have two a shocking burst and a holy burst so I know the grind well enough.)

Bacab
10-06-2010, 03:59 AM
I really wish my ToD ring could add Holy Burst or Shocking Burst to my Mineral II Greatsword.

BTW...so you know...

Holy/Evil Outsider bane/Metalline>Holy/Acid/Acid/Metalline

Your idea is neat...but would be game breaking.

Monks get a lot going for them. They really do not need help.

How about this...

You can crunch 2 Mineral II great Axes into one set of Mineral II Handwraps? Oh...the Handwraps do not increase in size category like other weapons...

Would that be fair to you?

Veriden
10-06-2010, 04:42 AM
I really wish my ToD ring could add Holy Burst or Shocking Burst to my Mineral II Greatsword.

BTW...so you know...

Holy/Evil Outsider bane/Metalline>Holy/Acid/Acid/Metalline

(only by a slim margin. min2 gets 1d4 which effectively makes 1d8 difference in damage. Chances are you have at least 20 points of strength higher than a balanced monk who didn't dump wisdom. so 3d6+50ish? at 19-20x3 vs 2d10+25ish 19-20x2. so I beg to differ.)[I'm not saying make monks top dog in dps, not by any means, but being omega runt of melee isn't exactly great.)

Your idea is neat...but would be game breaking. (The idea is not a complete one yet, granted like all brain stormed ideas it needs to be shoveled around some.

Monks get a lot going for them. They really do not need help.
(They have a lot of useless abilities when it comes to contributing to raid parties. Good for solo'ing yes but not much to gain solo'ing. (except for amarath, decent stuff there till you get it all. Unlike fvs/rangers you don't see monks solo'ing VoD or any other such places)[Again, not saying making them the same as rangers or fvs, just to give them something others can't do. 500+ damages 100s of barbarians do that in their sleep, buffs? Spell casters are so much better at it that light monk even after update still isn't attractive.)[I'm a dark monk yeah, I agree the touch of death needed some serious nerfing, and the nerf doesn't hurt me too much as I have a good wisdom. (30 soon when I eat my +3 tome and put exceptional wis +1 on dt.)]

How about this...

You can crunch 2 Mineral II great Axes into one set of Mineral II Handwraps? Oh...the Handwraps do not increase in size category like other weapons...

Would that be fair to you?
(I never asked for fairness, just that a gap be drawn closer. 2d10 is enough base damage in my eyes. If I wanted higher base damage I'd trade a toughness feat for the past life monk feat.)


All inall, you both make believable arguements and disagreements to my original post. Thank you, much rather have what you two said rather than some one just saying 'no' or simply '/not signed' with out giving a reason or even constructively making points to aid and/or understand the idea in works.


Edit: And solo'ing Reaver's fate doesn't count as a raid monk's aren't solo'ing. Every one solo's that at least once when geared up.

Bacab
10-06-2010, 06:14 AM
Yeah I wish Monk's got greensteel wraps...

One thing many people forget though is...

The cost *should* be double since its technically two weapons.

I think the MOST likely thing to happen is a weird item that allows you to "crunch" 2 similar greensteel weapons into 1 pair of wraps.

I would also LOVE Greensteel Shields

But how would you classify them? As an Accesory (needs to be cleansed now can't have 2 stacking gaurds) or a weapon?

If its a weapon...that would be GREAT. You could put a LOT of neat things (stats or exceptional elemental Absorption on them and have multiple shields).

J1NG
10-06-2010, 06:19 AM
The reason why I do not agree to making GS HW available, besides the technical limitations I've listed before to which you had partially listed, is that I have seen some of the "Epic Handwraps" that Turbine are making available. And to be honest, I'd rather have those than GS HW which could bork up GS for everyone.

If there was a technically simple solution to making it, I would agree to it, but it's not as simple as simply adding the effects to a table. There's a lot involved for the unarmed combat side of things in terms of code.

J1NG

Veriden
10-06-2010, 06:57 AM
I see, I did not see anything about any 'epic' handwraps, would you care to pm me the source of the information please?

J1NG
10-06-2010, 06:59 AM
Do you have access to the Lamannia boards? There's a screenie of one such HW in there already.

J1NG

Coldin
10-06-2010, 07:15 AM
I see, I did not see anything about any 'epic' handwraps, would you care to pm me the source of the information please?

I don't know of any epic handwraps myself. There is a new pair of handwraps in the new quests for Update 7, but I don't think those can be made Epic.

Now there is a really lovely pair of handwraps from the live event coming for October that can be upgraded to level 20. But those are only really good against undead.

One of the biggest things greensteel has going for it in my opinion, is that they're versatile, high DPS weapons. Monks just don't have many options to get that same level of DPS anywhere in game currently.

I would like greensteel handwraps myself, even if they were weaker versions compared to other greensteel. But I think Monks should have the option of dealing lightning strikes with their fists.

J1NG
10-06-2010, 08:08 AM
The Handwraps (limited time only) can be obtained and levelled up to 20 (Epic). And the effects are some of the best all combined into one:

+5
Brilliance (Light Damage +1d6, +1d10 on crit)
Greater Undead Bane
Disruption
Radiant Blast (500+ light damage on vorpal)

This is working. And other Handwraps similiar to this can be made.

It's much easier for Turbine to make something like this (since it's creating one item):

+5
Corrosive (Untyped +1d6, +1d10 on crit)
Greater Construct Bane
Smiting
Disintegrate (400+ untyped damage on vorpal)

Than it would be to create a whole new crafting mechanic.

J1NG

J1NG
10-06-2010, 08:17 AM
An addendum to what I wrote.

Basically, why ask for something which could be buggy (a new GS crafting table etc), that could even bug out the current GS crafting (in case anyone think it's a simple thing), when we can have Turbine make a lot more of these "Epic" or "Unique" Handwraps instead?

We know they can make one off Handwraps (Epic or otherwise) much more easily than a new crafting scheme (there's a few floating around, Devout, Devouts, Endless Light, Skin of Mockery etc), hence why I am happy with Turbine making "Epic" or "Unique" Handwraps available instead.

I'd rather have something NOW, than wait who know's how long before we get to "bug test" it. And then it gets removed (because it doesn't work) and we get the "Soon" message instead. Which could mean months, years or even never.

J1NG

woundweaver
10-06-2010, 08:25 AM
theres new sets for monks on lammannia. a buddy of mine got some "charged gauntlets"
gloves that stack with wraps AND rings, adding shock burst, i believe :)

woundweaver
10-06-2010, 08:31 AM
undead are coming soon, en mass...new high lvl content, possibly the appearance of "the truthful one"
explains why the change to dark monks, and all the new undead weps and wraps.

its kinda like the new changes to the summons spells, being able to pick your summons. this change was implemented i bet to pave the way for druid shapeshifting, coming soon :D

Veriden
10-06-2010, 12:46 PM
An addendum to what I wrote.

Basically, why ask for something which could be buggy (a new GS crafting table etc), that could even bug out the current GS crafting (in case anyone think it's a simple thing), when we can have Turbine make a lot more of these "Epic" or "Unique" Handwraps instead?

We know they can make one off Handwraps (Epic or otherwise) much more easily than a new crafting scheme (there's a few floating around, Devout, Devouts, Endless Light, Skin of Mockery etc), hence why I am happy with Turbine making "Epic" or "Unique" Handwraps available instead.

I'd rather have something NOW, than wait who know's how long before we get to "bug test" it. And then it gets removed (because it doesn't work) and we get the "Soon" message instead. Which could mean months, years or even never.

J1NG

I see what you're talking about with the possibilty of bugging all of the green steel. But up to date none of the named handwraps are worth using. With the exception of the ones from thernal, and devotion(delera's) and thats up till about lvl 6. Devout handwraps are a pain to farm (took me 142 runs to get mine) And even then +2 and pure good to punch through dr15? total trash. I wish they'd impliment some form of crafting and/or customizing hand wraps for monks.

I got lucky and pulled +3 metalline hand wraps of bleed in iq after I crafted both of my rings. So I do 'decent' damage against raid bosses..if only barely more than the average 'metalline of pure good' weapon wielder who isn't toting around a min2 or lit2, or steam...the list goes on. but monks get their special ki attacks...for what they're worth..-.- good at making sure my bar doesn't feel up so it doesn't look like I'm piking with auto attack on :D

I saw the lam thread, I was even at the live event last week but only got mine up to lvl 12, as you said they're just good against undead. Where as every other melee class gets to make their own weapons we get stuck with the **** random loot tables.

Sadly, my gear set up doesn't allow me to take the gloves nor do I really put much time into epic. Epics put me to sleep. As well as the charged gauntlets wouldn't stack with a tod shocking burst ring. Shock and shocking burst stack, not two burst of the same element though.

Phyrewire
10-06-2010, 01:09 PM
I personally would like to see Turbine release GS HW. Just to be able to craft customized GS weapon like other classes in the game. WHile there has been discussions on the technical problems with adding HtH progression damage because its based on Monk level. Turbine could release the blank +5 GS HW without changing the Monk level based HtH damage; Letting the Monk class to customize the HW blanks into what ever.

Sure there are the elemental attacks from stances, but when it comes to Raid bosses its more about dealing straight damage pass their DR. With update 7 coming the ToD will be nerfed and reducing a Monks damage potential when it comes to Raid bosses. That's where it matters for every melee class, Monk or not. GS HW will dramatically improve the classes contribution.

Asking people to grind out quests for Epic wraps is ridiculous. I don't believe other melee class players would like having to grind for a weapon, not to mention named wraps are fairly worthless. Their just novalty items you put on the mantle and never use.

So yeah, I would like to see GS HW be introduced.

chester99
10-06-2010, 04:07 PM
The Handwraps (limited time only) can be obtained and levelled up to 20 (Epic). And the effects are some of the best all combined into one:

+5
Brilliance (Light Damage +1d6, +1d10 on crit)
Greater Undead Bane
Disruption
Radiant Blast (500+ light damage on vorpal)

This is working. And other Handwraps similiar to this can be made.

It's much easier for Turbine to make something like this (since it's creating one item):

+5
Corrosive (Untyped +1d6, +1d10 on crit)
Greater Construct Bane
Smiting
Disintegrate (400+ untyped damage on vorpal)

Than it would be to create a whole new crafting mechanic.

J1NG

other than the vorpal strike damage, both of those are trash. remind me what undead and constructs dominate the end game? and yeah, I'm sure they could make cool wraps that were non-trash. for reasons I can't begin to comprehend, they have yet to do so.

when I tr'ed my barb, at lvl 12 I got dual min2 dwarf axes. that was awesome and for me, made the tr process all kinds of fun.

when I tr'ed my monk, at level 12 I got.... wow, I'm not even sure I unlocked anything of value.

the fact that gs exists for all other classes but monks is a load of waste. probably human waste. possibly infected in some way, I didn't check.

/sigh

Veriden
10-06-2010, 06:08 PM
other than the vorpal strike damage, both of those are trash. remind me what undead and constructs dominate the end game? and yeah, I'm sure they could make cool wraps that were non-trash. for reasons I can't begin to comprehend, they have yet to do so.

when I tr'ed my barb, at lvl 12 I got dual min2 dwarf axes. that was awesome and for me, made the tr process all kinds of fun.

when I tr'ed my monk, at level 12 I got.... wow, I'm not even sure I unlocked anything of value.

the fact that gs exists for all other classes but monks is a load of waste. probably human waste. possibly infected in some way, I didn't check.

/sigh

You unlocked +1 to hit/damage unarmed :P Because that single +1 passive feat reaks of pure awesome sauce.

J1NG
10-07-2010, 02:32 AM
other than the vorpal strike damage, both of those are trash. remind me what undead and constructs dominate the end game? and yeah, I'm sure they could make cool wraps that were non-trash. for reasons I can't begin to comprehend, they have yet to do so.

when I tr'ed my barb, at lvl 12 I got dual min2 dwarf axes. that was awesome and for me, made the tr process all kinds of fun.

when I tr'ed my monk, at level 12 I got.... wow, I'm not even sure I unlocked anything of value.

the fact that gs exists for all other classes but monks is a load of waste. probably human waste. possibly infected in some way, I didn't check.

/sigh

chester99,

Turbine have yet to do so in making something more universally useful or awesome so far, but it doesn't mean they won't. If you want them (Turbine) to make GS available to HW instead, that's going to be quite a wait. By which time, we probably would have got 3 different proper Epic HW and 1 Twink Epic HW by the time they're done and ready for us to test the new GS HW (which may get pulled after they scew up, or even screw up the current GS items too). To which you KNOW they're going to make us grind for in an even worse fashion than the current GS in the Shroud :(.

Let's face it, Crafting "Unique" HW vs New GS System:

1. Which one is "cheaper" for Turbine to create?

Unique. Less time and hence money needed to make for one new item. Also more chance to actually work without heavy balance and bug testing. Also, no need to overhaul the Unarmed combat system that is associated with the body property to use a new method that will be synonymous with other combat, which could take months or even years of testing and development and hence lots more money. Which in a business will need a really good reason to do so (and clearly not here, since it's working within their limits).

2. Which one will make Turbine more money?

Unique. Stick the best ones or the upgrade parts in various parts of a quest area and Monk players will definately buy those packs if they're not VIP. Tomb of the Tormented (Necro III), Tomb of the Sanguine Heart (Necro I), etc for upgrade parts to Devout means people will buy those packs as well. Epic Twink HW in Three Barrel Cove, etc means Turbine gets to increase sales on packs they want.

Not only that, since it's a Monk class only thing typically (and hence only monk players want it, and not "useful" for everyone, like current GS is), Turbine doesn't need to devote the time and money to develop the GS HW thing to the monk class only.

3. New Grind instead? OK that'll work: New Crafting

They're more likely to make a whole new "Concordant Materials" (just a guess and wild name) crafting system that doesn't use anything from the Shroud (and hence GS) but has HW options. At the same time, they'll also make a property on them that makes makes it impossible for you to use both types of things together (no GS and new crafted stuff). If they do something like that, yeah, you'll get what you want, as everyone can grind for it, but it'll be a whole new grind. And it won't be GS.

Ask for a new crafting system for HW and other items guys, then Turbine will make more money, then Turbine will deliver. Don't ask for GS HW though. Hope for more Unique HW instead.

Think in business (money making terms).

Just my view of it. :)

Although last time I checked, people were sick of grinding, and leary of Turbine making another mechanic like the GS or DT crafting. So... *shrug*

J1NG