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View Full Version : Returning to Sorc via TR - need opinions



Majere_Aumar
10-03-2010, 06:48 AM
Hi, my first life was sorc, now Im about to finish up with wf wizard and will return to sorc again for my final life?

I'm torn between building a drow nuker with evocation focus to boost what I get from the TR's with lots of sp or a tougher wf which doesn't have as good dc ...

Any good advice would be welcome ... my usual play style is dynamic, jumping like a jackrabbit and using terrain to avoid damage. Lots of zerging.

mediocresurgeon
10-03-2010, 06:56 AM
I prefer Warforged casters. They are much sturdier when running Epic content, which is where your build matters most, and where the content is most difficult. Don't underestimate the power of self-targeted Reconstructs and racial immunities to the nastiest debuffs in the game! Once you have all your caster gear you won't notice the difference between 38 Cha and 42 Cha. (The reason for this is that the ultimate AoE in epic, Mass Hold Monster, affects more monsters than your party can kill before the duration is up... even if it's an undergeared caster with crappy DCs). Also, the most important spell in the game, Wall of Fire, does not allow a save. Neither does the second most important cast spell, Polar Ray.)

If you do decide to go with a fleshy race, don't do Drow. Drow have -2 con and they can only reach the same charisma modifier as humans. Humans also get a bonus feat that drow don't get, and receive an extra skill point each level (Concentration & UMD at 8 int base).

Human:
18 Base
5 levels
1 human enhancement
3 sorcerer enhancement
7 epic ring of the silver concord
1 litany of the dead
1 exceptional
2 exceptional
4 tome
= Charisma 42 (+16)

Drow:
20 base
5 levels
3 sorcerer enhancement
7 epic ring of the silver concord
1 litany of the dead
1 exceptional
2 exceptional
4 tome
= Charisma 43 (+16)

tinyelvis
10-03-2010, 11:53 AM
You can make any caster plenty sturdy for epic play. I dumped toughness on all my epic casters in favor of feats that directly enhance my offensive casting. In my opinion, the most important point with respect to epic play is character saves and spell landing ability. Both will insure your caster can live longer and can solo epic play. I dont care how many hitpoints you have, you will have lots of trouble solo'n epic content with a caster who has poor saves. Ending up on the ground due to a command at a bad time will permit the 15 guys you are kiting to a wall of fire catch up with you and beat you to a pulp quickly. I suggest shooting for 30+ in will save and possibly that much in reflex. At present fort is not that critical since you can dodge or make yourself immune to most fort effects.

I play epic with a WF and Drow caster. My drow caster has a much easier time due to his higher saves and better DC's. My WF has very high evocation DC's however, only in a few epic quests do these come into play. On the other hand, in areas like shavarath, the high evocation DC really dominates. I can kite 20+ devils and orthons into a choke point and blast them down with cone of cold in a matter of seconds.

My personal preference with the drow is to go either necromancy or enchantment. Evocation will work fine, however, I made my WF the evocation specialist. If you make your Drow an evocation specialist, then with end loot he can also be really tough enchantment too. A WF on the other hand will have a rough time being good a both and needs to specialize in one. When you play two casters, you really notice the difference between a 38 charisma and a 42. BTW, heavy evocation and combination spells like fireball and frost lance will total obliterate the opposition to degrees beyond belief levels 6-20 (non epic). Past level 10 switch to cone of cold and ball lightning. Then back to DBF. I take maximize at 6th (though you can wait till 9th) and heighten at 9th.

Your Frost Lance at 11th level will put out as much damage as a Polar Ray at 20th level since mobs will rarely make a save. If you get your evocation very high. Even in a quest like the shroud, your Frost lance will land against even Harry with high frequency. I do not believe there is any way to put out more damage than a Frost Lance/Polar Ray combo like this. Based on comments in other threads, I also do not believe many people have realized this point yet. If so, they are keeping quiet about it.

Finally, Human is also an option if you are interested in an extra feat. However, keep in mind in order to achieve the same capped charisma as a drow you will need to get the best end loot and this can take months of gaming to achieve. Further, you will need to spend 8 more AP points with a human over a drow to do this. This will cut into your ability to put these points into enhancements that will improve your diversity and offensive casting. If toughness is a goal, the human is also a good way to go. I personally cannot find any extra feat openings to apply toward toughness for a drow or WF. If you don't have the special high end equipment, and want the best DC possible, I would recommend the drow. You can always reincarnate him to a human 6 months from now when you get all the fancy bells and whistles and if the designers dont put a new +1 charisma bonus into the game.

Majere_Aumar
10-04-2010, 12:03 AM
Well there's two completely differing opinions which will make the decision easier for me :)

I have a lvl 17 WF sorc sitting around doing nothing. I guess it's possible to have a fleshy with a high dc and great nuking ability and a WF boomstick.

Anyone know what the max unbuffed (but geared) HP on a drow or human is without the toughness feat?

mediocresurgeon
10-04-2010, 06:19 AM
Anyone know what the max unbuffed (but geared) HP on a drow or human is without the toughness feat?
Take toughness. (Unless you're a WF, in which case you MIGHT be able to get away with taking Quicken instead.)

1: Maximize Spell
1H: Force of Personality
3: Empower Spell
6: Extend Spell
9: Toughness
12: Spell Pen
15: Greater Spell Pen
18: Heighten Spell


Human stating stats:
18 con, 18 charisma (32 pt)
Ending stats:
Con 36 (+6 enhancement, +2 exceptional, +1 litany, +4 tome, +1 human enhancement, +2 yugoloth potion, +2 rage)
Charisma 42

260 Constitution
80 Levels
20 Heroic
10 Draconic
23 Toughness (feat)
30 Racial Toughness (I, II, III)
45 Shroud HP item
30 Greater False Life (technically you can take the 40-hp version, but I don't suggest it)
20 Toughness (item)
20 Yugoloth special effct
=538 hp


Drow starting stats:
20 charisma, 14 con, 14 int (28 pt)
Ending stats:
Con 31 (+6 enhancement, +2 exceptional, +1 litany, +4 tome, +2 yugoloth potion, +2 rage)
Charisma 43

200 Constitution
80 Levels
20 Heroic
10 Draconic
23 Toughness (feat)
20 Racial Toughness (I, II)
45 Shroud HP item
30 Greater False Life (technically you can take the 40-hp version, but I don't suggest it)
20 Toughness (item)
20 Yugoloth special effct
=468 hp

Human has an extra 70 hp over a drow, an extra feat, an extra skill point each level, and the same DCs. Realistically, you will never reach these hp levels (468 and 538) unless you keep your character on all the important raid timers for a year straight... including the Epic ones.

tinyelvis
10-04-2010, 10:55 AM
Obviously, this poster like many folks, likes toons with lots of hitpoints. There is nothing wrong with this idea, but understand it comes at a cost.

For toughness and the enhancements you gain 43 to 53 hitpoints and the costs are 1 feat and,
Drow: 3 action points
Human: 6 action points

Subtract this from the numbers posted above to determine high hit point numbers. I don't think these are the absolute highest. When you couple these action point costs with the points that need be spent to get maximum charisma you are looking at,

Drow max effective charisma = 6 action points
Human highest effective charisma = 14 action points
Drow max effective charisma and max hitpoints = 9 action points plus a feat
Human max effective charisma and max hitpoints = 20 action points plus a feat

This is the small print that is seldom mentioned. People always use the idea that a human can potentially reach the highest charisma and hitpoint potential as selling points for human, however, they neglect to mention the costs.

Most everyone will go for at least maximum charisma. Usually this means a drow will have the potential for higher charisma. However, if you get great end game gear you can potentially buff your human charisma to that of a drow as stated. However, again, if high charisma is your goal, i would suggest a drow at least until you get that high end gear. At that point, if you desire, a quick race switch thru reincarnation can be made.

Note, I believe it is much more difficult to get super item buffs to your charisma than to your hitpoints. As a final point, folks usually incorrectly state that humans get a bonus skill over a drow. This is incorrect since a drow gets a +2 intel, which in addition to that stat improvement also nets a +1 skill bonus (ironically effectively a better benefit). To me, the big selling point for a human is the extra feat, the other issues are minor or non existent.

Dark-Star
10-04-2010, 01:33 PM
After trying both, a WF arcane is far superior.

You will get differing opinions, but ignore the noise and make your caster a WF.

In very simple terms, if there was a feat you could take that gave you 40-80 hps, +2-3 fortitude saves, level drain immunity, disease immunity, poison immunity, 100% fortitude from a moderate fort item, the ability to self heal at will and situational 20dr/- for -1-2 DC and -1-2 will save, wouldn't everyone take that feat?

KingOfCheese
10-04-2010, 01:43 PM
After trying both, a WF arcane is far superior.

You will get differing opinions, but ignore the noise and make your caster a WF.

In very simple terms, if there was a feat you could take that gave you 40-80 hps, +2-3 fortitude saves, level drain immunity, disease immunity, poison immunity, 100% fortitude from a moderate fort item, the ability to self heal at will and situational 20dr/- for -1-2 DC and -1-2 will save, wouldn't everyone take that feat?

:)

Many would (including me). But not all.

I've come to prefer WF. The biggest downside--lower DCs--doesn't bother me much. My DCs are good enough for current game content. My human (which currently has 3 higher charisma) gets better results landing spells in epic and Amarath--but both WF and human land spells more than good enough. Since they both clear the "good enough" threshold, the WF wins out on the other factors.

With different game content, I might change my mind in the future--but currently, I'd rather play the WF.

KingOfCheese
10-04-2010, 01:47 PM
I should add that some of the recent game additions (ship buffs, yugo pots), make it easier to reach the "good enough" DCs and have contributed to my WF preference. Geared out, and with high enough guild level, it is pretty easy to sustain a 42 Cha on a WF (38 +2 yugo pot; +2 ship buff). Not long ago, 42 was considered godlike--and few casters of any race had sustainable Cha that high. Sure, drow and human hit the mid to high 40s and are better yet. But 42 is "good enough."

Dark-Star
10-04-2010, 01:54 PM
The other "good enough" factor came when epic saves were lowered by 5. That's like adding 10 cha points. Prior to that change you could have made an argument for a non-WF arcane, but not any more. On really tough mobs, all races will Energy Drain anyway.

I have no problems landing mass holds on Psyborg my WF sorc in epic content. But having 557 hps (597 when I LR) with quickened reconstruct is just such a huge advantage.

Sweyn
10-04-2010, 01:57 PM
Anyone know what the max unbuffed (but geared) HP on a drow or human is without the toughness feat?

A Level 20 Drow Sorcerer is capible of having 465 standing HP with no toughness, IMO, it is a major waste on a sorcerer.

80 - Level twenty sorcerer
240 - Thirty four constitution*
20 - Minos
30 - Greater false life
20 - Yugoloth Potion side affect
45 - Greensteel hp item
10 - Draconic Vitality (150 Gianthold favor)
20 - Heroic Durability (Automatic granted feat to every class at level 1)
-----------
465 Standing HP



*32 Constitution breakdown
------------------------
16 - Base (32 pt TR drow)
6 - Item
3 - Exceptional (Craft +2 con on Thamors Ring (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Unlimited/Items/Rings/ThamorsRing.jpg) for 3 total exceptional)
4 - Tome
2 - Rage spell
2 - Yugoloth Potion
1 - Litany
---------
34 Standing Constitution on a Drow sorcerer


With this HP potential, i truely think toughness is a waste on a sorc. If you are a newer player without access to all this gear (I understand it is a lot), then toughness would be viable until you get the gear.

KingOfCheese
10-04-2010, 02:12 PM
A Level 20 Drow Sorcerer is capible of having 465 standing HP with no toughness, IMO, it is a major waste on a sorcerer.

80 - Level twenty sorcerer
240 - Thirty four constitution*
20 - Minos
30 - Greater false life
20 - Yugoloth Potion side affect
45 - Greensteel hp item
10 - Draconic Vitality (150 Gianthold favor)
20 - Heroic Durability (Automatic granted feat to every class at level 1)
-----------
465 Standing HP



*32 Constitution breakdown
------------------------
16 - Base (32 pt TR drow)
6 - Item
3 - Exceptional (Craft +2 con on Thamors Ring (http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/jgould2005/DDO/Unlimited/Items/Rings/ThamorsRing.jpg) for 3 total exceptional)
4 - Tome
2 - Rage spell
2 - Yugoloth Potion
1 - Litany
---------
34 Standing Constitution on a Drow sorcerer


With this HP potential, i truely think toughness is a waste on a sorc. If you are a newer player without access to all this gear (I understand it is a lot), then toughness would be viable until you get the gear.

465 is enough. Very true.

But so far, I've held on to toughness. My WF self-buffs to 607 (would be 627 with a +4 con tome). Definitely not needed. But I like it. I like it very much. Its really hard to kill him. There are times where he would have died, but for the high hps. Everyone rolls a 1 now and again. This guy survives those 1s pretty much every time. For the other things I could pick up instead of toughness--I'm happy to stick with the gazillion hps right now. The high hps have saved numerous runs where all others have died and a lower hps caster wouldn't have made it--Abbots (easy survive through inferno, multiple disintegrates, etc.), DQs (can take a volley from the boss and live through it), and others.

I've been tempted to swap some feats around (dropping toughness being one option I've considered), but can't bring myself to do it.

Majere_Aumar
10-04-2010, 08:31 PM
I feel really bad about this but I actually think the most logical thing to do would be to take wizard again. I vowed that I would come back to sorcerer because I love the raw power, but wizard might just be the best thing to do in this situation (having both a wizard and sorc tr under my belt),

As a WF wizard, when combining all the past life feats, I would have +1 dc over a standard drow fully geared with an extra +1 for evocation then whatever spell schools I take.

With more feats, I could afford to take both the 10 elemental rays (which if I take 2x evocation school would hit quite often) + the 10 x 10 magic missiles. These free spells when heightened + quickened + maxed + empowered are worth quite a bit of SP vs a single target, maybe almost enough to bridge the 1000ish spell point gap when boss fighting.

On top of that I get the 500ish WF hp, more feats, spell choice, wf racial immunities, high reflex saves, balance, jump ... don't need umd (have rings of ancestors + raise dead on gs items) + sneak for saving sp while soloing. There's also the archmage prestige class coming which seems to offer some more sp savings on some frequently used spells and maybe even better dc's iirc.

Given sorcerers are extremely feat limitted, I don't think sorc is an appropriate class for TR'ing to with the combination of feats I have available. Pure wizard or maybe a wizard + rogue combination is a better way to go I think.

With the free past life elemental ray and magic missiles, does anyone know if they work on the same cooldown timer or can you chain between them for higher dps? I like to switch on all metamagic feats while using these, then switch back to just max + emp after they run out for using my normal spells.

tinyelvis
10-06-2010, 10:24 PM
After trying both, a WF arcane is far superior.

You will get differing opinions, but ignore the noise and make your caster a WF.

In very simple terms, if there was a feat you could take that gave you 40-80 hps, +2-3 fortitude saves, level drain immunity, disease immunity, poison immunity, 100% fortitude from a moderate fort item, the ability to self heal at will and situational 20dr/- for -1-2 DC and -1-2 will save, wouldn't everyone take that feat?

Not if it was a choice between that feat and a feat that gave you a +4 to charisma. Essentially all you are getting there is hitpoints, everything else can be had thru items, and I would trade twice that many hitpoints for a +4 to charisma.

khaldan
10-06-2010, 10:29 PM
Not if it was a choice between that feat and a feat that gave you a +4 to charisma.

Unless you play drow, it's a +2-+3 charisma. Which is what, 29-58 sp and 1-2 DC?

Yeah, I'll take uninterruptible self healing, 60-80 hp, and all the crazy immunities for -1-2 DC.

Edit: Better comparison. Spell focus(all) or WF immunities and self healing and extra hp(mmm, 20 hp before toughness/con enhancements), which is better? Should be an easier question to answer.

Dark-Star
10-07-2010, 03:09 AM
Essentially all you are getting there is hitpoints, everything else can be had thru items.

List for us, specifically, what items give a non-wf these:

1. 40-80 additional hps
2. +2-3 additional fortitude save
3. level drain immunity (not a finite level drain protection, or something dispellable)
4. 100% fortitude from a moderate fort item
5. the ability to self heal at will
6. situational 20dr/-

shagath
10-07-2010, 03:22 AM
If I would really must pick between something like wiz past life active feat and wf bonuses, I would pick past life. I wouldn't tr to get all that but I am doing(done already kind of, lvl20 and all) it for that active feat. :) This game isn't hard enough that you need that list but extra dc always helps. :)

KingOfCheese
10-07-2010, 02:53 PM
Big picture: all races work fine--any can turn out a geared-up sorc that can dominate the game content.

For individual players, you have to find your own personal "good enough" space for things like spell DCs and hit points (and saves and enhancements, etc., etc.).

We often get caught up in theoretical debates about one race being better than the other--but those difference won't matter if all of the choices clear your own personal "good enough" level.

I suspect for most players, that WF, human, drow, halfling (or other) more than clear the "good enough" barrier.

There will be some that will want to completely max DCs--with full feats, yugo pots, store pots, ship buffs, gear, house D pots (50+ cha on a drow) so that they can run through Sins and Wail down almost everything on a 1st pass.

Likewise, there will be some that will want 800+ hps on their sorc--at the sacrifice of some other things.

I suspect most people won't fall into either category--because the benefits aren't worth it--for them.

Many of the high CHA sorcs (typically drow, sometimes human) play the game in the 42-44 cha range. And they kick butt in this range. They could boost much higher--but they don't (at least not on a regular basis) because 42-44 is good enough. That sets a 42-44 cha as "good enough"--even for this rarer set of high performance players. WF can hit that range as well (39 max "permanent", +2 ship buff to 41, +2 yugo pot to 43, +2 store pot to 45--43 without spending turbine points to maintain it). Yes, human and drow can get even higher--but if 42-44 is good enough--does it matter? For most, the answer will tend to be "no." 40 is probably high enough for many. Or 38.

So when we say that "drow don't have enough hps" or that "WF don't have high enough DCs", we need to think carefully about the "good enough" issue. I've seen many a 38 CHA, 220 hp drow complaining about WF DCs--apparently 38 is good enough--and WF can hit that. Likewise, I've seen many 400 hp WF with 28 CHA saying that drow are too squishy--apparently 400 is good enough--and drow can hit that.

So many good choices out there for a fun class that can kick this game's butt.

Majere_Aumar
10-07-2010, 07:31 PM
I've had a quick look at the maths, and I'm really confident now that WF wizard is the way to go for anyone with both the sorc and wiz past lives.

With slightly over 2000sp, the combination of a really high evocation DC + 10 elemental rays + 10x10 magic missiles really offsets the SP difference between Wizard and Sorcerer. Then with archmage, spells like magic missile are essentially free.

Re: The current argument about classes and DC's ... The DC difference is significant between wizard and sorcerer. I really don't think the "theme" of a sorcerer is to have high dc's, all evidence indicates they are really for high and sustained nuke damage ... the nature of the sorc capstone and past life feat also reinforces this.

If you want dc, go for a wizard ... their past life feat gives +1, they get more feats to put into spell schools, their capstone gives +1 and with Archmage they will get another +2 to their favored school, then there's pale master on top of that. That's a possible +7 dc over sorcerers in necromancy or +5, +6 in other schools. They'd typically have better spell penetration as well due to the number of feats.

I think the real "theme" of sorcs is to have sp as high as possible with maximize + empower permanently switched on.

On a side note, can you imagine a sorc/sorc/sorc/wiz/wiz evoker's DC?

+3 sorc past lives
+1 wizard past life
+1 wizard capstone
+2 evocation school
+2 evoker archmage

+9 total - surely thats enough to get full damage on bosses in most content.

Dark-Star
10-07-2010, 09:17 PM
Here is the thing, after they nerfed epic saves, a 35+ DC is enough (attainable for any WF with a +2 tome and a yugo pot).

If 35+ DC is enough to land reliably, anything in excess is not needed. If you don't need a higher DC to function in your role, then why not take all that WF give?

Now I can understand if you don't like WF from a role play or flavor perspective (several of the crew I run with do not), but from a min-max perspective, there is no denying WF as superior for an arcane.

While KingofCheese makes some good points, I cannot encourage new players enough to tune out the noise and try a WF arcane. There simply is no substitute for (quickened) Reconstruct.

As for Wizard vs. Sorc, that's really a different discussion, but also partially falls under the 35 DC being good enough catagory. It's not the spell pool differnce that is the big deal, it's the far slower cast times on the high level spells for a wizard.

tinyelvis
10-08-2010, 06:53 AM
Here is the thing, after they nerfed epic saves, a 35+ DC is enough (attainable for any WF with a +2 tome and a yugo pot).

If 35+ DC is enough to land reliably, anything in excess is not needed. If you don't need a higher DC to function in your role, then why not take all that WF give?

Now I can understand if you don't like WF from a role play or flavor perspective (several of the crew I run with do not), but from a min-max perspective, there is no denying WF as superior for an arcane.

While KingofCheese makes some good points, I cannot encourage new players enough to tune out the noise and try a WF arcane. There simply is no substitute for (quickened) Reconstruct.

As for Wizard vs. Sorc, that's really a different discussion, but also partially falls under the 35 DC being good enough catagory. It's not the spell pool differnce that is the big deal, it's the far slower cast times on the high level spells for a wizard.

This is really not true unless you run high end quests on casual or don't plan being more than occasionally useful in epic content. You will need to break a 40 DC to make necro spell work for you in shavarath and inspired district. A 35 DC is close to minimum with perhaps enchantment. But with a 35 DC even in enchantment you will not stick your spells on very many targets per cast and those that do get effected will make their saves sooner meaning less time to deal with targets and many more recasts.

Some folks who play WF have very low standards wrt landing spells. If you play a WF shoot for 42 charisma like other folks have suggested. This is good advice. This will insure good spell performance in at least enchantments and pretty good performance with evocation spells. You can certainly get by with a 35 DC in some cases, but your performance overall will definitely be sub average.

It's true the designers seem to really like noobs and WF (though the later are not necessarily a subset of the former). And after much whinning from poor players and WF casters they reduced the saves of mobs. Before this change good players with 40 something charismas did fine (regardless of race). However, this change only made it possible for poor players and WF with lower charisma to finally start to land spells.

I agree with your comments Majere_Aumar. Pushing your DC's high can really pay off. I have seen really high DC wizards perform really well (killing off even orange named foes on elite in the inspired quarters with wail reliably). Further, your evocation will be even more effective if you push that school. There is nothing like landing a polar ray quickly followed by frost lance on foes in the shroud and doing full damage with each most of the time.

Dark-Star
10-09-2010, 01:09 AM
Why don't you back up one rediculous claim...

Quote:

Essentially all you are getting there is hitpoints, everything else can be had thru items.


List for us, specifically, what items give a non-wf these:

1. 40-80 additional hps
2. +2-3 additional fortitude save
3. level drain immunity (not a finite level drain protection, or something dispellable)
4. 100% fortitude from a moderate fort item
5. the ability to self heal at will
6. situational 20dr/-

... before you start spewing more nonsense about another.

shagath
10-09-2010, 01:50 AM
WF still can lose levels with demonic consorts(hidden effect: occasional level drain when being hit). :)

tinyelvis
10-09-2010, 06:18 PM
After trying both, a WF arcane is far superior.

You will get differing opinions, but ignore the noise and make your caster a WF.

In very simple terms, if there was a feat you could take that gave you 40-80 hps, +2-3 fortitude saves, level drain immunity, disease immunity, poison immunity, 100% fortitude from a moderate fort item, the ability to self heal at will and situational 20dr/- for -1-2 DC and -1-2 will save, wouldn't everyone take that feat?

I didnt comment on you statement because it is filled with nonsense and incorrect comments. Its a waste of time to comment on every inaccurate or miss-represented post.

1. 20DR: WF do not get a 20 DR situationally
2. WF cannot self heal at will. No character race has self heal at will ability including WF.
3. 100% Fort from a moderate for item, ...lol... so what, from this comment it implies you don't wear a minos legens helmet that any race can also wear and get 100% fort. Further these other races will get 20 bonus hit points that you miss out on. My WF wears one.
4. Disease and poison immunity. This effect is so easy to treat with spells or items that some dont even bother wearing the immunity items that are also easily available.
5. Level drain immunity, this really is not a completely true statement. There are ways to level drain a WF. Even so, it is incredibly easy to block the typical level drain attacks, restore levels lost, or just wait until the effect goes away. In addition, the first thing my WF does when he is solo'n epic VON II is throw up a death ward (like all other smart players). If you don't then eventually one of those pups will PK you.
6. bonus to for saves. So what, most all fort save effects can be easily blocked with easily available items or spells. For this reason, the fort save is the least important.
7. 40 - 80 hit points. Here, for your case (no minos legens helm) you really should have wrote 20 - 60.

So, essentially based on your points the only thing in the list that has any real value is the hit points. Even if most of these items where not trivial and you added the not trivial great things a WF can do like,

1. Immunity to many hold effects
2. The ability to easily wand and spell heal and spell heal 100% of time with the quicken feat

I would still say that I would rather have,

+4 to charisma.

I suggest you actually play a WF and find out the real costs and benefits before commenting in a thread. For all races you can make up a trivial list of race benefits, here let me do one, and i will use actual effects without the need to exaggerate or miss represent.

Play a drow because no other race can,
1. Start ultimately with beginning stats of 20 in 2 areas.
2. Start with a bonus of +2 to intel so you essentially get an extra skill
3. Immune to sleep without any item use
4. +2 to enchantment
5. +2 to listen, search and spot
6. Spell resistance of 20 without the need for items
7. Proficiency in short sword, rapier, and shurikens
8. Bonus to charisma with maximum possible main sorcerer stat available.

This list could look pretty impressive to the novice. A sleep immunity might actually be usefull if the game designers liked drow over WF. However, alas, it is the other way around and epic casters will use spells like hold monster, instead of a high level sleep effect(none currently even exist). And like most special abilities for WF, many of these drow abilities can be easily duplicated (if you want) with item use. For this reason, most knowledgeable players know that most every item above (like most true ones in your list) is a so what or who cares effect. With really the only main effect being the +2 to charisma and max starting 20 charisma.

khaldan
10-09-2010, 06:28 PM
I didnt comment on you statement because it is filled with nonsense and incorrect comments. Its a waste of time to comment on every inaccurate or miss-represented post.

1. 20DR: WF do not get a 20 DR situationally DoD is amazing. Situational, but hey.
2. WF cannot self heal at will. No character race has self heal at will ability including WF. Hardcast reconstruct is amazing. No other race gets that as a sorc, unless you're willing to lose 3 feats as a halfling.
3. 100% Fort from a moderate for item, ...lol... so what, from this comment it implies you don't wear a minos legens helmet that any race can also wear and get 100% fort. Further these other races will get 20 bonus hit points that you miss out on. My WF wears one. Why hello, Mr. Blue slot or upgraded IQ docent.
4. Disease and poison immunity. This effect is so easy to treat with spells or items that some dont even bother wearing the immunity items that are also easily available. True, but it's nice at lower levels.
5. Level drain immunity, this really is not a completely true statement. There are ways to level drain a WF. Even so, it is incredibly easy to block the typical level drain attacks, restore levels lost, or just wait until the effect goes away. In addition, the first thing my WF does when he is solo'n epic VON II is throw up a death ward (like all other smart players). If you don't then eventually one of those pups will PK you. Deathblock stops PK, and level drain immunity refers to enervation and energy drain.
6. bonus to for saves. So what, most all fort save effects can be easily blocked with easily available items or spells. For this reason, the fort save is the least important. Not all are, and you really don't want to fail the ones that matter.
7. 40 - 80 hit points. Here, for your case (no minos legens helm) you really should have wrote 20 - 60. It's still 40-80.

So, essentially based on your points the only thing in the list that has any real value is the hit points. Even if most of these items where not trivial and you added the not trivial great things a WF can do like,

1. Immunity to many hold effects woo
2. The ability to easily wand and spell heal and spell heal 100% of time with the quicken feat That's what he meant by the only race that self healed.

I would still say that I would rather have,

+4 to charisma.

I suggest you actually play a WF and find out the real costs and benefits before commenting in a thread. For all races you can make up a trivial list of race benefits, here let me do one, and i will use actual effects without the need to exaggerate or miss represent.

Play a drow because no other race can,
1. Start ultimately with beginning stats of 20 in 2 areas. See #2
2. Start with a bonus of +2 to intel so you essentially get an extra skill See #1
3. Immune to sleep without any item use ... Sleep gets used outside of von4?
4. +2 to enchantment You have a high will save being a sorc, but this is true
5. +2 to listen, search and spot
6. Spell resistance of 20 without the need for items
7. Proficiency in short sword, rapier, and shurikens
8. Bonus to charisma with maximum possible main sorcerer stat available. +2 DC is all it nets you. Well, and 1 UMD, but it's easy to hit 40 anyway.

This list could look pretty impressive to the novice. A sleep immunity might actually be usefull if the game designers liked drow over WF. However, alas, it is the other way around and epic casters will use spells like hold monster, instead of a high level sleep effect(none currently even exist). And like most special abilities for WF, many of these drow abilities can be easily duplicated (if you want) with item use. For this reason, most knowledgeable players know that most every item above (like most true ones in your list) is a so what or who cares effect. With really the only main effect being the +2 to charisma and max starting 20 charisma.

Everything noted in the bonuses WF get is useful for multiple levels, if not all. A large amount of the drow bonuses aren't.


Responses in red and green, because I was going to do red for it all, and then noticed that you used red for part of it.

Dark-Star
10-09-2010, 07:43 PM
I'll just comment on this quote as you did a fine job validating your lack of understanding with the rest of your post, especially your saying that what a wf brings to the arcane class is trivial.


I suggest you actually play a WF and find out the real costs and benefits before commenting in a thread.

I have played since the game came out. I have played extensively both a drow sorc and a wf sorc. I play my wf sorc almost every day in epic raids and quests, and fully understand through experience what DC's are good enough to land spells in epics, and just how much a wf's survivability adds to group and raid contribution.

A returning player is asking for advice, and having years of experience playing both races I am more than qualified to provide an educated opinion that will result in his increased enjoyment of the game. To make the right choice, he should merely read your posts and compare them everyone elses.

testing1234
10-09-2010, 08:25 PM
if its not the final TR of the character then the choice becomes very easy as its much easier and faster to lvl up a warforged then a fleshy wizard if ur going pure and even more so if ur multiclassing in almost all cases.

if anyone claims a warforged wizard cant lvl faster then a fleshie its pure ignorance.

warforged is not the best at everything but lvling speed it cant be matched allows a much more aggressive play style which highly favors completion speed low medium and highish lvls.

tinyelvis
10-10-2010, 08:56 AM
I make that claim.

The best way to level fast is to solo quest one level below your caster level usually on normal and get thru the quests as fast as possible. For levels 1-10, if you are a good caster (any race) you almost never need to heal yourself between shrines (if you even use a shrine). Even when I play a WF sorcerer I don't waste any spell spots on repair spells. Reconstruct is not taken until at least level 13 in favor of offensive spells. Levels 14 - end game the best way to level fast is by becoming very proficient at using insta kill spells. Killing (or neutralizing) things fast makes survival incredibly easy. High hitpoints and superior self healing are very nice but in no way the most important factor at these levels. Become very proficient in necromancy and walk into the inspired quarters and see how fast you can run those quests on normal.

So, you claim at all levels WF are faster to level. Well, if healing is not an issue low to mid level then what special ability does a WF bring to the table to enable faster leveling there? If WF sorcerer are two behind and WF wizard one behind the best casters in spell DC mid to high level why are they better at insta kill quick questing?

Actually, I have found that high DC casters are the fastest and easiest to level. Its also easy to level a WF fast, however, just not as fast as a high DC caster.

Sydril
10-10-2010, 09:21 AM
I went with a drow nuker with a feat splash for twf (yes it actually works)

14
14
14
12
8
18

1 Toughness
3 Extend
6 Maximize
9 Two weapon fighting
12 Heighten
15 Past life Wizard
18 Empower

Taking the twf feat allows for better vorpaling with sickles (or whatever you want with masters touch), sets like keen puncturing and seeker 10 off hand with a min 2 rapier.

I put destruction on a dragon touched armor and off hand an improved destruction shortsword for most epics. its an extra +12 to hit, yes they stack.

HP are fine, most stats are in the mid to upper 20s with a 40 charisma.

Theres lots of ways you can go with multiple tr builds and the best thing to do with them in my opinion is to stretch them out a little and see what they can do.