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View Full Version : Petition - Double Axe - Double Sword - Doublestrike + Exotic Weapons



Joseph
10-01-2010, 07:30 PM
With doublestrike working, I would like to suggest that it should be very easy to implement a double axe (and double sword).

Each weapon would be an exotic weapon, and would increase the double strike chance for that weapon (10% or 15%, I would suggest) with the possibility for racial enhancements.

If nothing else two swords or two axes, stuck end to end on a staff animation would be the immediate thought for how to handle the animation chain for melee weapons.

With the EXCLUSION of (Bastard Sword, Dwarven Axe, and Khopesh), that all other exotic weapons receive a doublestrike chance, with the above referenced racial enhancement line to increase the chance of that strike happening.

Lastly - for sword and board users, shields could add a chance for doublestrike - so that, while still not competing with pure DPS mode folks, the S&B crowd would do a little more damage to enemies.

Some few suggestions that I think would help bring other exotics outside of those already modified within the scope of people wanting to use them more - and justify their exotic status (when compared to Khopesh, DA, and BS).

EDITS BELOW:

D&D Weapon Chart (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm) (not DDO - but to give a reference point for what DDO was built from, allowing one to consider the suggestions I have put forth as workable alternatives to adding double weapons without breaking or recoding the existing system).

First, a double weapon, if wielded one handed, can only have one end of it used at a time (as in the case of an ogre using a double weapon in one hand).

Second, a double weapon can be used to fight as if dual wielding (treated as having a light weapon in the off hand). The way DDO is built, I was operating on the assumption that if you wanted to dual wield, you would simply dual wield. Making double weapons as dual wield capable weapons would more or less break the weapon type, because so few people would use it (it would be a very underwhelming weapon). In the case of adding double strike chances to it, you increase the utility of the weapon.

Therefore, to add this to DDO, one would either have to make a new weapon category (two handed weapons that can be used one handed), which would require extensive testing, and quite likely break something in the process - a thing I am sure the devs would not like to do.

To make it more easy, double weapons become classed as two handed weapons (no changes needed there), they use the staff attack animation (no changes needed there), and they have a chance for 'double strike) as per existing TWF which is based on that chance.

In this case you would have a THF weapon that gave a chance for doublestrike, and it would also give you the benefits of using THF (hence being an exotic weapon and costing a feat).

TWF would still be the doublestrike king, and would get the benefits of different weapons in each hand. THF would have larger damage dice and in the case of Falchion the crazy crit range).

From a code and a game application standpoint, it is the most direct route (IMHO) to adding the weapon type to the game.

As for the other exotic weapon types - how many people do you know who use them (unless it is part of a class or race). Eliminate class and race and really, the only exotic weapon most people take is Khopesh - and that is because it is overpowered compared to other weapons. In many cases it is the only choice.

By adding doublestrike chance to the other exotic weapons that are not part of the current three that are either broken (Khopesh) or receive glancing blows (BS and DA), you make those weapons a more viable choice.

In the case of the melee types - now they have a doublestrike chance (for more damage) - meaning they are still not as good as a Khopesh - but they are now a viable choice (where currently they are not).

In the case of shields - many people have made dozens of suggestions on how to improve S&B. Adding double strike properties to shields would be a big step towards that improvement - and again, it is likely a simple thing to code (as opposed to most of the other suggestions on S&B - my own included).

In summary - double weapons would not break the game, and they would not become 'the most powerful weapons in the game'. With standard PnP playing they are usually most overpowered in the hands of a tempest or a rogue using the fact that the 1d8 attack property of the 'light' weapon part is better than most other weapons, and benefiting form the +1 defensive bonus they usually give. I am suggesting that the double weapons instead be implemented as two handed weapons. They would have lowed damage dice than current THF types, they would benefit from THF feats, and they would also have a doublestrike chance.

Hopefully this clears things up a bit :)

Spisey
10-01-2010, 07:42 PM
I'm still waiting on mah flail! :(

Zilta
10-01-2010, 07:46 PM
Double handwraps! :P

Joseph
10-01-2010, 07:57 PM
I'm still waiting on mah flail! :(

I did forget flails. Heck, there is a slew of cool weapons that are not in here, but as I recall, in PnP, flail was the choice weapon for a cleric.

Joseph
10-01-2010, 07:58 PM
Double handwraps! :P

I am wondering if I can dual wield double daggers :)

Failedlegend
10-01-2010, 08:11 PM
I'd be happy if the added a good exotic 2-Handed weapon but a definite preference would be Orcish Double Axe coupled with giving Half-Orcs an FvS line under Gruumsh that focuses on the ODA like the LoB focused on greatswords

h4x0r1f1c
10-01-2010, 08:16 PM
This wouldn't work nor would it be a good idea.

You can only hit someone with 1 side of the weapon at a time, unless you poke them.

Also, swinging side-to-side is two hits.

A Great Axe and a Longsword both have two sides already.

Even if they did do your suggestion, any Two Handed Fighter with one of those would become the new best DPS.

Joseph
10-01-2010, 08:45 PM
Comments in red...


This wouldn't work nor would it be a good idea.

You can only hit someone with 1 side of the weapon at a time, unless you poke them.

Agreed. You can only hit someone with one side of a weapon at a time.

Also, swinging side-to-side is two hits.

Swinging from side to side is for people using weapons with one end (such as the weapons you describe). In this case, yes, swinging from side to side is the common method of hitting an object.

A Great Axe and a Longsword both have two sides already.

Ah, but we are not talking about the sides of a weapon when discussing the double axe or double sword - we are discussing the ends of the weapon. You see, a Great Axe, a Longsword, and a Great Sword all only have one end. In the case of the more exotic double weapon type, it is used like a staff, where the first end hits, and the second end can also hit. The overall result of this style of fighting returns an average of, I would guess, about a 50% increase in overall hits - hence the doublestrike chance that would increase as a character leveled.

Even if they did do your suggestion, any Two Handed Fighter with one of those would become the new best DPS.

I am confused as to what you are saying here. Do you honestly mean they would be the best weapons in the game, or do you mean they would be better than Khopesh (the current 'best weapon in the game')? I do not see where adding a doublestrike chance to a weapon that requires an exotic feat would make it overpowering. Khopesh users would still be the 'best' DPS in game - but the overall DPS would be more balanced across other 'exotic' weapon types - and those players (I am not one) who would like to have a double weapon would have that choice for their character. I do not begrudge them that choice. Personally I don't like the concept of 'double weapons' - I have always thought double weapon axes and swords were foolish and unrealistic (I know, as opposed to a WF casting firewall - but still :D ). With that in mind, I also recognize how other people play, and that they like the possibility for those weapons.

This is a honest question, because a 15% doublestrike chance on a weapon would not make it better than a Khopesh (of which you would be wielding two presumably). It would, however, add flavor and add more weapons to the game (halberd, spear?). The classes that would arguably benefit the most (Barb and Paladin) would have to burn a feat to get the weapon (from an already limited pool of feats), and then burn APs to use it - if enhanced that way (from an also limited pool of APs).



I'm updating the OP for more clarity. It seems there is a lot of unfamiliarity with these weapon types, and I want to address that.

h4x0r1f1c
10-01-2010, 08:47 PM
OP, did you mean this?

http://www.youthink.com/images_quiz/2009/08/12/full_830013218.jpg

Failedlegend
10-01-2010, 08:49 PM
OP, did you mean this?

"picture"

No more like these

http://videoflashback.com/store/media/orcaxe.jpghttp://www.costumeandpropshop.com/images_product/preview/Rubies/555.jpg
http://www.reapermini.com/graphics/gallery/4/03003_w_1.jpg

h4x0r1f1c
10-01-2010, 08:55 PM
Well even with that style of weapon, you would only be able to hit your enemy with one side of it at a time.

It would be a Two Handed Weapon with a different swinging style, that's all.

Just like you swing a Great Axe side-to-side then down-and-up, this could be all..

diagonal-diagonal, jab, middle strike.. I don't know whatever would look best.

Joseph
10-01-2010, 09:17 PM
Also check out the updates I made to the OP.

And remember - I am not a fan of these weapons. I would, however, like to see a larger variety of weapons added to the game.

Part of the reason these weapons were never added before is because in DDO terms they are a THF weapon (you can't use a shield), but they function like TWF (you can get off hand attacks with them).

In terms of offhand attacks, these weapon types are overpowered (more powerful than traditional TWF weapons that are generally available).

That is why I suggested to make them THF weapon types, with a small doublestrike chance, and the benefit of THF feats. I'm not advocating making the greatest and deadliest weapon in the game. Quite the contrary. But these would make a nice addition, and could literally be done in a week (I really think more like a day of team effort), and in time for the U7 (the update that introduces half Orcs - and yes, I know everyone would be playing a Half Orc with a Double Weapon - but keep in mind - standard double weapon does 1d8 - as opposed to the 1d12 and 2d6 of the current THF weapons - so instant balance to the entire complaint chain about how overpowered Half Orcs will be with Great Axes - give them the double axe as a racial weapon, and problem solved).

Give Half elves the double sword :) :p

h4x0r1f1c
10-01-2010, 09:22 PM
And remember - I am not a fan of these weapons. I would, however, like to see a larger variety of weapons added to the game.


I made a thread too http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3307709

Joseph
10-01-2010, 09:57 PM
Glad to be your inspiration :)

Polearms would be nice. I would certainly like my Halberd.

Joseph
10-05-2010, 06:19 PM
I thought there were many more people who wanted to see double axes and swords - especially with the addition of the Half Orc.

Are there not?

Failedlegend
10-06-2010, 04:00 AM
I thought there were many more people who wanted to see double axes and swords - especially with the addition of the Half Orc.

Are there not?

Sorry man you got hit by a thread virus called "The H4X" when that happens no one wants to post anymore.

Bacab
10-06-2010, 04:04 AM
It would be a neat item...and I would love having it.

But it would be unfair/super hard to code as far as greensteel goes.

Do you end up with 2 really nice weapons for the price of one?

Or

Do you end up using 4 Shards of Supreme Power and 10 Large Scales?

Failedlegend
10-06-2010, 04:14 AM
It would be a neat item...and I would love having it.

But it would be unfair/super hard to code as far as greensteel goes.

Do you end up with 2 really nice weapons for the price of one?

Or

Do you end up using 4 Shards of Supreme Power and 10 Large Scales?

Actually that gave me a cool idea...currently TWFs have the advantage of an extra weapon slot...it would be cool if THFs could take two say long swords and make a single weapon out of them and have both abilities

Rules:

- Does not work with GS or Named items

- Must be two weapons of the same type

- Weapons must be similar to 2-handed weapon being created (ie. 2 handaxe = greataxe)

- Uses level appropriate collectables...you know some of those useless ones

- Similar effects do not stack....ie. combining 2 PG Scimmys gives won't give you a PG PG Falchion.

- Highest ML will apply