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Spoonwelder
09-30-2010, 12:41 PM
I would like to suggest that modified by experience, time, level, Bard enhancements, int or wis bonuses - that our characters inspection of monsters should provide more information:

Resistances, DR, vulnerabilities, diet(ie metal), commonly cast spells, damage type put out....

The CR difference from our Character level +Int or +Wis bonus could be the DC calc to get any information. Program it only to do the check on a select AND inspect function so you don't bog the system down with a bunch of Lag.

I first thought of this as applying to Bards (as lore used to be one of their areas of expertise). But I thought it would be applicable to all characters...ie. once you have fought a troll 100 times you should know most of the details about it. But the first time you see an Orthon it should be a mystery.

I know that we as players learn (albeit some of us more slowly than others), but I find it nearly impossible to remember all of them and would like a chance to be reminded from my own characters experience/knowledge. I always forget that the Razor Cats have DR/bludgeon until the fight is almost over. Other examples abound. It would be helpful to new players and although there have been attempts to codify some of this knowledge in the forums. These tools have been incomplete and also hard to understand (to me anyway).

In game information is always better than flipping out of game.

h4x0r1f1c
09-30-2010, 09:04 PM
All monsters need to be examinable.

For newbs, show that Undead have 100% fort and stuff.

Tell it all. Neverwinter Nights did.

Musouka
09-30-2010, 09:25 PM
That actually makes sense. Low base intelligence would actually keep you from knowing what some monsters are. Low base wisdom will keep you from being able to spot vulnerabilities.

helicalius
10-01-2010, 04:23 AM
good idea, can certanly be implemented but it will almost never be used. or maybe it will i dont know, anyway if your a pro you can just look online for information on the monster, and there is absolutly no need to inspect trash the inspection feature if it would exit would only be helpfull in bosses and stuff. and the main point is that this way noobs get to annoy pros with all sort of noobish question, and thats the main purpose of ddo so there!

Spoonwelder
10-01-2010, 11:08 AM
I could see it being frequently used by newer players and soloers. Also if it was there I am sure other regular players would make use of it. Powergamers not so much but they are a special case.

I have been playing for a year and still haven't hit all of the content yet. I have only done the lower level quests enough to have them fully memorized, so I frequently forget the attributes of the mid-range and higher mobs. In a group this isn't much of an issue, but if I am solo and I want to take out that darned Rhakshasha Thuamaturge(sp?) It would be nice to remember that the have SR## and DR##/pierce plus they cast acid fog and hold spells (IIRC). I have killed them alot in the Vale so now I do have it pretty much covered but it would be nice to have that as a backup source.

As I said before - having to flip out to the internet mid-game is less than optimal. So having the information available in game would be invaluable.

As a final point - it may give more of a reason to buff up certain stats that aren't core to your build (ie. finally a use for all those Int goggles in the AH).

TheDearLeader
10-01-2010, 11:15 AM
Funny, I thought there was this neat user-created wiki that gave people most this information.

Also, if you've fought a mob 100 times, you don't need to be told what its vulnerabilities are. If you've really forgotten that trolls take more damage from firewall, then maybe you should look into some sort of memory therapy.

This is an unnecessary easy button : if you're unsure about a mob's DR, abilities, or what you need to do to make it dead, ask a more experienced player, research the wiki - or heaven forbid, play around a little and see what works.

Easy Button. Boo Easy Button.

B0ltdrag0n
10-01-2010, 11:21 AM
Funny, I thought there was this neat user-created wiki that gave people most this information.

Also, if you've fought a mob 100 times, you don't need to be told what its vulnerabilities are. If you've really forgotten that trolls take more damage from firewall, then maybe you should look into some sort of memory therapy.

This is an unnecessary easy button : if you're unsure about a mob's DR, abilities, or what you need to do to make it dead, ask a more experienced player, research the wiki - or heaven forbid, play around a little and see what works.

Easy Button. Boo Easy Button.



By your second paragraph and the explanation in the third you state that the info is mostly already available.

Thus claiming Easy Button, when the information is already available seems unfounded. Having this would be no different than a user created wiki, or asking vets or playing around.

Is it needed? No.

Does it make the game significantly easier? No.

Does it help reduce the learning curve of the non P2P players and make it so they dont have to seek information from sites besides turbines, thus motivating them to stay in the game/on the website, thus gaining them advertising dollars, as well as being a 'new player friendly' initiative and thus good pr move.

I'll leave that up to you.

Fomori
10-01-2010, 11:23 AM
As I said before - having to flip out to the internet mid-game is less than optimal. So having the information available in game would be invaluable.
True, thats why I have my iPhone (insert other smartphone here) to look up maps on ddowiki if I get that brainfart where that rare/explorer area is located. Also its good for browsing forums and or looking up quest/monster info.

Spoonwelder
10-01-2010, 11:33 AM
Funny, I thought there was this neat user-created wiki that gave people most this information.

Also, if you've fought a mob 100 times, you don't need to be told what its vulnerabilities are. If you've really forgotten that trolls take more damage from firewall, then maybe you should look into some sort of memory therapy.

This is an unnecessary easy button : if you're unsure about a mob's DR, abilities, or what you need to do to make it dead, ask a more experienced player, research the wiki - or heaven forbid, play around a little and see what works.

Easy Button. Boo Easy Button.

I gave a number of ways to implement it - making it stat/skill based OR experience based. So you could just have a really well read Wizard walk into the Vale and know that the spiders are DR/pierce this mob has SR, devils are LE etc....The fact that we as characters are blind to the mobs vulnerabilities at all times is counterintuitive.

As for 100 times killing something - that was an exageration. If it was based upon experience only (sub-optimal option in my opinion if this were to be implemented) then a little information would accrue to you with each kill. First 5 kills - regen rate - next 10 - vulnerable to acid....etc.....

Yeah I know I should memorize every mob in the game and have the wiki downloaded into my head BUT I play maybe 2 times a week and when I do play I don't want to be flipping between the game and a website(or iPhone)

As for easy button - thats your opinion. I wasn't saying give it carte blanche to every player so it would outright simplify the game, I was saying have it driven by what your character should know. As a real game DM I would often give players WIS/INT checks to see if they should (or shouldn't) know something. This would be somewhat akin to that. It's not an easy button if it is earned.

TheDearLeader
10-01-2010, 11:46 AM
Ah, seems I generated some strife.

100 kills *shouldn't* be an exaggeration. Most quests have kill counts of over 100 kills, and normally 80-90% of them will be the same type of mob.

Bardic Knowledge did get a bit lost in this game, as all items are immediately identified upon receipt, and there aren't a lot of "Knowledge" checks going around.

The fact that descriptions tell you CR - Type - Subtype is still more than a regular D&D player would have gotten. The fact that we get "Immune" pop up over their head, or Orange/Yellow/White/Green/Purple numbers depending on whether or not we do Full/Partial/No/Healing/Vulnerable damage to them is definitely more than we'd see as PCs in a pnp game.

You're asking for more? We already get an abundant wealth of knowledge from what the game communicates to us, I can't justify allowing PCs to know more.

As for the Wiki - I suggested that because if someone is *really really really* having issues, they can look there. I don't recommend ALT-Tabbing for every encounter.

Asking other players is something I recommend because this is a social game - and learning from those more experienced than us has been a part of our way of life since well before we had written word.

And yes, this suggestion is quite different from a wiki, or asking other players. It fuels laziness, and could be likened to painting a giant bullseye on each potential target.

As for the comment about lessening a newbie's "learning curve".. well, this suggestion pretty much eliminates the "Curve" portion of that, doesn't it?

I maintain firm and resolute on my stance toward this suggestion, in any permutation.

Spoonwelder
10-01-2010, 12:14 PM
This post started with my thoughts on the loss of bardic knowledge and even the loss of mystery of what magic an item contained until you used the item OR had the item examined by a bard or used the Identify spell. BUT I shelved that due to the annoyance factor that would add.

The next thought was more about what a character (not the player themself) would know. The character doesn't see a bunch of numbers flying over a mobs head, they see their weapon have an affect on the mob - sometimes greater, sometimes lesser. An unintelligent/inexperienced character may never change their approach and not learn anything. A smart/knowledgeable character would either research what they are getting into before heading out into the quests OR would accumulate knowledge with time through experience and apply the knowledge to better their results.

I am not asking for more information be made to the Player - I am asking for the knowledge that the Character has to be available to the Player. Also, I believe that the vast majority of players never hit the Wiki or the website for information (as noted from the PUGS I frequent. They expect it to be in the game and in many respects it should be there.

As for in PnP what a player would know - heard of the Monster Manual(s)? I knew guys who had it pretty well memorized - that is why it was better with them to use a skill check since it would reference what their character would know.

Finally, what is the Orb/inspect option for. It tells you virtually nothing as it is so this suggestion is in part about making that a bit more useful.

TheDearLeader
10-01-2010, 12:25 PM
Also, I believe that the vast majority of players never hit the Wiki or the website for information (as noted from the PUGS I frequent. They expect it to be in the game and in many respects it should be there.

As for in PnP what a player would know - heard of the Monster Manual(s)? I knew guys who had it pretty well memorized - that is why it was better with them to use a skill check since it would reference what their character would know.


You're talking about two different types of people. Lazy PUGers, and diligent PnP players.

If PUG people weren't so lazy, they'd ask before coming into the quests if there's any special items/spells they need. If I hear this question asked, I will politely give them the answers they so seek. Sometimes, I'm proactive (by the way, you'll need a static feather fall item in Coalescence Chamber/Underwater Action in Sleeping Dust. Oh you have them? Great, lets roll.), or that sort of thing.

Also, in the PnP world, even if I know the mating rituals of an Adult Red Dragon, or the naming characteristics of the standard Kobold.. my character does not. That's called metagaming, and will get you booted from real-life groups fast.

Inspection Orb - Type, Subtype, CR. Still more than we'd get in regular D&D, and plenty enough for what we need to succeed in DDO.

WASNTME
10-01-2010, 12:28 PM
Spoonwelder The next thought was more about what a character (not the player themself) would know. The character doesn't see a bunch of numbers flying over a mobs head, they see their weapon have an affect on the mob - sometimes greater, sometimes lesser. An unintelligent/inexperienced character may never change their approach and not learn anything. A smart/knowledgeable character would either research what they are getting into before heading out into the quests OR would accumulate knowledge with time through experience and apply the knowledge to better their results

I really like this concept; but so I am not assuming this; concept would be achieved by the character's real stats? Meaning a 8 intelligence would see and react far less to what a character that had a 15 or better would see.

Did I misunderstand the concept?

Spoonwelder
10-01-2010, 12:51 PM
I really like this concept; but so I am not assuming this; concept would be achieved by the character's real stats? Meaning a 8 intelligence would see and react far less to what a character that had a 15 or better would see.

Did I misunderstand the concept?

No I think you got what I was saying.....Hight Int OR Wis should affect the information provided in the inspection orb. This could be further modified by experience of the character in fighting the mob in question.

I think a pure skill/stat check would be easier to code since compiling kill data by character would be cumbersome, but either is possible. And as I said originally only have the code triggered on mob select AND inspect to reduce lag components.

Spoonwelder
10-01-2010, 01:08 PM
You're talking about two different types of people. Lazy PUGers, and diligent PnP players.

If PUG people weren't so lazy, they'd ask before coming into the quests if there's any special items/spells they need. If I hear this question asked, I will politely give them the answers they so seek. Sometimes, I'm proactive (by the way, you'll need a static feather fall item in Coalescence Chamber/Underwater Action in Sleeping Dust. Oh you have them? Great, lets roll.), or that sort of thing.

Also, in the PnP world, even if I know the mating rituals of an Adult Red Dragon, or the naming characteristics of the standard Kobold.. my character does not. That's called metagaming, and will get you booted from real-life groups fast.

Inspection Orb - Type, Subtype, CR. Still more than we'd get in regular D&D, and plenty enough for what we need to succeed in DDO.

I understand your point - I still don't think it adds any significant ease to the game that can't be replicated with other sources. What it would provide is an increase in the knowledge of all players so that any PUGs are just ever so slightly more successful. Better PUGs is a good thing.

I do believe though that the game is underdocumented and this is just one of the many ways that it is underdocumented. I do not include DDOwiki or the forums as documentation of the game. The forums are often wrong and the Wiki is a private source. Even then the monster documentation is not well done IMO.

Aurochys
10-01-2010, 01:11 PM
I like it. Its helpful for new and/or more casual players that don't have the game memorized but implemented in a way that is based off of the PnP roots of the game.

TheDearLeader
10-01-2010, 01:12 PM
I understand your point - I still don't think it adds any significant ease to the game that can't be replicated with other sources. What it would provide is an increase in the knowledge of all players so that any PUGs are just ever so slightly more successful. Better PUGs is a good thing.

I do believe though that the game is underdocumented and this is just one of the many ways that it is underdocumented. I do not include DDOwiki or the forums as documentation of the game. The forums are often wrong and the Wiki is a private source. Even then the monster documentation is not well done IMO.

Perhaps documentation is poor. And, I'm sure it helps that I have a heavy D&D background coming into this, and may be biased toward wanting the playing base to also be of the same background.

That said, I also think there's something to be said for self-exploration, be it in game experience, asking other playing, searching forums/wiki/whatever. Even if the Compendium was put together a little better, it'd be nice. But the thought of putting it within the very description of every mob "Hey, please use fire spells on me, okay? It'll kill me fast, I promise!" ... Hurts me.

Spoonwelder
10-01-2010, 01:25 PM
But the thought of putting it within the very description of every mob "Hey, please use fire spells on me, okay? It'll kill me fast, I promise!" ... Hurts me.

The way you state that implies it would just be there for ALL players/characters at ALL time.

I am proposing that it be something that is earned by either ability check (DC vs. Level+Stat bonus) OR via experience (x number of kills).

Players should read the manual in order to play the game well. They should get information about how to Play the game better from other sources. But information that should be available to the character in the game should be visible to the Player in the game without having to go outside the game.

A parallel example is maps - they stay visible for you if you have completed the quest/area recently (I don't like that the buffer of known maps known is so short but I live with that as most quests are pretty linear). The parallel to your position would be that you HAVE to go outside the game to get any maps regardless of when or how often your character has run in that map or zone.

underpants
10-01-2010, 01:29 PM
We could take this further and give each monster a back story like they did to every dude in star wars.

Example

*Wight high priest: use to be a clieric who ran out of spell points and attacked a Shadow without a ghost touch weapon or death block on and died. In the party chat he blamed it on lag so as punishment he will now wonder the game as a cursed undead

/signed good idea