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Aashrym
09-28-2010, 01:55 PM
We need an option for warchanters who want to progress higher than level 16 and see no reason.

A couple of suggestions on some tier III warchanter songs:

1) Warning shout - provides 1 target +5 morale bonus to reflex saves and evasion (not improved evasion) for a short time. Maybe 24 sec +6 sec per level. Consumes 2 bard songs instead of 1.

2) Marching war drums - aoe causing morale penalty to attack, damage, and save vs fear equal to the bonuses from inspire courage. Short debuff, actually plays war drum effect in the song.

Any thoughts on these ideas?

Aashrym
09-28-2010, 02:04 PM
New capstone idea too. Song of the heart.

Your Bardic Music abilities are improved:
Inspire Courage, Inspire Competence, Inspire Greatness, & Inspire Heroics have their bonuses increased
by 1.
Fascinate, Suggestion, & Mass Suggestion have their DC increased by 1.

Schwarzie
09-28-2010, 03:15 PM
Both suggesteions wont help Warchanters.

Right now its a problem to design a Dungeon for a group WITH a bard which isnt to hard for a group without.

With your suggestion the difference in power between a group with and a group without would further increase and therefore deepen the Problem.

And it isnt fun to spend all songs for the Rest of the Party, it would be more interesting if the next tier of Warchanter would be something to buff the Warchanter himself and not the Group.

And i oppose the New Capstone out of principle since i dont like Capstones :D

Aashrym
09-28-2010, 03:27 PM
Both suggesteions wont help Warchanters.

Right now its a problem to design a Dungeon for a group WITH a bard which isnt to hard for a group without.

With your suggestion the difference in power between a group with and a group without would further increase and therefore deepen the Problem.

And it isnt fun to spend all songs for the Rest of the Party, it would be more interesting if the next tier of Warchanter would be something to buff the Warchanter himself and not the Group.

And i oppose the New Capstone out of principle since i dont like Capstones :D

And here I thought it was a much better capstone then the existing one for chanters and virtuoso's, and could be a choice for singers.

Any ideas how you would improve on the first 2 suggestions. Thank you for the reply btw.

Schwarzie
09-29-2010, 04:07 AM
And here I thought it was a much better capstone then the existing one for chanters and virtuoso's, and could be a choice for singers.

Any ideas how you would improve on the first 2 suggestions. Thank you for the reply btw.
As Tier III Warchanter i would like another addition to the Hitpoints.
As new Songs something along this:

"Song of War"
Gives everything Inspire Courage gives with an additional stacking +2 attack +2 damage for the singer.
or
"Song of Power"
effectively a Divine Power effect for the Bard.

So basically a Bonus ONLY the bard gets which makes him a stronger Fighter.

Aashrym
09-29-2010, 10:13 AM
As Tier III Warchanter i would like another addition to the Hitpoints.
As new Songs something along this:

"Song of War"
Gives everything Inspire Courage gives with an additional stacking +2 attack +2 damage for the singer.
or
"Song of Power"
effectively a Divine Power effect for the Bard.

So basically a Bonus ONLY the bard gets which makes him a stronger Fighter.

I was expecting more along the lines of heavy armor prof with no ASF, bonus hp, and bonus hit/damage with weapons they took either weapon focus in or spent the 1 AP for proficiency in. And another bonus to intimidate.

The divine power idea has come up before and it's not a bad idea either. Warning shout is based off a PnP feat for bards, maybe add it as an enhancement instead available to all bards.

I thought about the big debuff song for virts but intimidating the opposing armies with marching war drums does seem to suit war chanters more. Between that and iron skin chant that's reasonable damage mitigation.

If we were to go with bonus hit and/or damage outside of the song, heavy armor prof 0 ASF, bonus hp, change warning shout to an enhancement available to all bards, go with the divine power equivalent song and the debuffing song then would this sound more like what you would want/expect?

Schwarzie
09-29-2010, 10:28 AM
I was expecting more along the lines of heavy armor prof with no ASF, bonus hp, and bonus hit/damage with weapons they took either weapon focus in or spent the 1 AP for proficiency in. And another bonus to intimidate.Even the Medium Armour Prof is borderline useless except for a few Armours (epic Marilith Chain and Elocators Habiliment) and i dont even know one Heavy Armour which would be nice enough to carry it as Warchanter.


The divine power idea has come up before and it's not a bad idea either. Warning shout is based off a PnP feat for bards, maybe add it as an enhancement instead available to all bards.That may be a bit powerfull in DDO. In PnP Evasion is a strong feature, but nowhere as usefull as here in DDO where Traps and AOE Damage is FAR higher then in PnP. It could be overpowered.


If we were to go with bonus hit and/or damage outside of the song, heavy armor prof 0 ASF, bonus hp, change warning shout to an enhancement available to all bards, go with the divine power equivalent song and the debuffing song then would this sound more like what you would want/expect?As writte nabove Warning shout may be OP in DDO. Heavy Armour Prof is useless. A debuffing song may be a nice idea, but once again would widen the difference between a Party WITH Bard and a Party without. That should be avoided.

elujin
09-29-2010, 10:30 AM
why only war chanter songs op there outher bards out there :D
speaking for all virtuoso though that debuff song is ourse :p

andbr22
09-29-2010, 10:45 AM
for WC -> Song of UBERNess
Evrything you hit dies. "die noob!"
If you miss something then you die. "I don't hit on 2. I don't deserve to live"

For SS -> Spell song swarm.
Your song tickles all enemy in 1 ft. radius for 1 dmg from fire, electricity, acid, ice, sonic. every 2 seconds.

For VoS -> Almost iressistible disco
You create efect of octto spere of dancing (what kind of disco is disco without disko ball), deep fog (what kind of disco is disco without mist machines), mind fog (what kind of party is party without alcohol :P).

Aashrym
09-29-2010, 10:49 AM
Even the Medium Armour Prof is borderline useless except for a few Armours (epic Marilith Chain and Elocators Habiliment) and i dont even know one Heavy Armour which would be nice enough to carry it as Warchanter.

That may be a bit powerfull in DDO. In PnP Evasion is a strong feature, but nowhere as usefull as here in DDO where Traps and AOE Damage is FAR higher then in PnP. It could be overpowered.

As writte nabove Warning shout may be OP in DDO. Heavy Armour Prof is useless. A debuffing song may be a nice idea, but once again would widen the difference between a Party WITH Bard and a Party without. That should be avoided.

I'm sure someone out there will try to make a heavy armor bard. It's more for flavor following the tier II, and it opens up options for the devs to tailor the occasion named heavy armor for a bard. Useless now doesn't equal useless in the future. Consider it more for flavor than effect for now. ;)

Evasion could overpowered, but at the cost of 2 songs with time to sing that's easily corrected by adjusting durations. It might not be worth it, but I think it is worth thinking about.

What if we were to use a smaller number on the debuff song. Static penalty of 2? Similar in effect to many spells but not so powerful, and just uses a higher DC?

Aashrym
09-29-2010, 10:50 AM
why only war chanter songs op there outher bards out there :D
speaking for all virtuoso though that debuff song is ourse :p

I was definitely giving some virt song thoughts. I'm about to open another suggestion thread for them, to keep this one more on topic. ;)

Aashrym
09-29-2010, 11:07 AM
why only war chanter songs op there outher bards out there :D
speaking for all virtuoso though that debuff song is ourse :p

Here you go. http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?p=3300939#post3300939

Aerendil
09-29-2010, 11:13 AM
My predictions:

Bard Inspired Attack III, Damage III and Bravery IV added as enhancements in the 14-18 range (attack III at 18, damage III at 17 perhaps?. Bravery IV should be around lvl 13, but might be delayed to 14).

War Chanter:
Bard War Chanter III
Prereqs: Level 18 Bard, Bard War Chanter II, Bard Inspired Attack III, Bard Inspired Damage III, Bard Inspired Bravery IV
Benefit: Your further studies into war have granted you another +2 bonus to your Intimidate skill, for a total of +6. You have also grown more resilient, gaining a further +10 maximum hit points, and gain further improvements to your single martial weapon proficiency you possess Weapon Focus in. You also gain the ability to expend a use of Bardic Music to grant all nearby allies Legionnaire's March. You may possess only one prestige enhancement line at a time for each class.

Legionnaire's March
Benefit: Expend a use of Bardic Music to cast Legionnaire's March, which treats all allies in range as having a base BAB equivalent to the highest base BAB in your group for the duration of the song, in addition to a +4 competence bonus to damage. As a non-magical effect, this song cannot be removed by dispel magic or antimagic.

<Battleaxe> Training II
Prereqs: Level 18 Bard, Bard War Chanter III, <Battleaxe> Training I
Cost: 2 AP
Benefit: Grants weapon specialization with <battleaxes>.
Your studies in your chosen martial weapon have improved to the point that you are as efficient as some Fighters, granting you a +1 to hit and +2 damage bonus with your chosen weapon. Only one weapon training enhancement may be taken.



*note* - as an example of Legionnaire's March, if you had a group consisting of a Bard, Rogue, Monk, Paladin, Cleric, and Sorceror, it would determine that the highest BAB class in the group was the Paladin, and all within range for the duration of the song would be treated as a full BAB class (so at level 20, your base BAB would be boosted to 20).

andbr22
09-29-2010, 11:33 AM
Ok fun time's over. Time for critisism.
Legionare's march would kill 99% of other bards (unless they get things like "you kill epic mobs easly with your new POWAH").
I think WC should get full Attack bonus for bard class. +1 or +2 dmg when naturaly raged.
New song -> War drums sounds not bad.
Enemies gets peanlty to dmg (well 2 would be quite usless, but like 5% overpowered), and are paralised by fear (sit in pleace and do nothing -> NO autocrit effect)
This counts as fear effect.

Aerendil
09-29-2010, 11:45 AM
Legionare's march would kill 99% of other bards (unless they get things like "you kill epic mobs easly with your new POWAH").

No, it wouldn't.
Inspire Courage is generally considered the Warchanter's forte, and right now at level 20 the only difference between a pure WC and a pure Virtuoso or SS is +1 to-hit and +2 damage. That's it.
Given that a WC is often multiclassed, thus losing the +1/+1 at 20, it's generally more like +1 damage advantage.

Warchanters need something more.
A short-duration Legionnaire's March could certainly help out for raids or boss mobs, but wouldn't last long enough to be a permanent duration buff - and would be a welcome addition to any raid.

There needs to be a reason to go 18 levels in Bard as a Warchanter.
Right now, there isn't one.

Aashrym
09-29-2010, 11:45 AM
Legionnaire's March does seem too much. A bard song that grants a bard version of divine power to himself sounds better. Full bab and +4 morale bonus to STR or something similar.

EDIT: On second thought, is adding the full bab to bards, rogues, fvs/cleric, and wizzy/sorc really going be an issue? There aren't that many classes who can't accomplish better BAB anyway through other means. I would be more concerned this would cause more war chanter only and less acceptance for other bards.

Aerendil
09-29-2010, 12:06 PM
EDIT: On second thought, is adding the full bab to bards, rogues, fvs/cleric, and wizzy/sorc really going be an issue? There aren't that many classes who can't accomplish better BAB anyway through other means. I would be more concerned this would cause more war chanter only and less acceptance for other bards.

Well, exactly. It does nothing for the full BAB classes, and helps the bards, rogues, etc. out for to-hit (which, let's face it, they sometimes struggle at end-game with their to-hit as it is currently).
The competence bonus to damage is high, yes, but it gives a short-duration "burst" dps mode which the Bard currently does not have. If it's game breaking which I don't feel it would be with the dps output of kensais, death frenzied barbs, dark monks, multishot / AA rangers, exalted smiting paladins, and so on, then it could reduced to, say, +2 competence bonus to damage. /shrug

As for less acceptance for other Bards, the way I see the PrES filling out, I don't think that'll happen. Just my prediction of course, and I could be wrong, but they're being developed so as to fill their own niches and not overlap. Only the Spellsinger can buff casters the way they do, and offer SP regen spells. And the Warchanter should be able to fill that niche for the melee folk.
The Virtuoso... well, that one still needs a lot more work, and it's something I've championed since day 1. The song regen that's just been added is nice, but they still need more. I'd love to see them fulfill the debuffing role via songs, such as Curse Chant and/or something similar. That could bring something unique to a group or raid and make them quite valuable.

But I digress- this is the Warchanter ideas thread, so I've given mine :)

gurth83
11-03-2010, 01:00 PM
It would be nice if warchanter PrE III allow to cast in heavy armors and have War Chanter <EXOTIC Weapon> Training
* Benefit: Grants exotic weapon proficiency with <Weapon>.
This enhancement is available for all exotic weapons that Bards are not proficient in, but may only be taken for one weapon:

improved song of reck - 10% double strike -10 fort

song of divine power - increase BAB same as spell? :P

Xenus_Paradox
11-03-2010, 01:35 PM
Warchanter III
Prerequisites: Warchanter II, Improved Critical (any), Bard Inspired Attack III, Bard Inspired Damage III
Cost: 2 AP

Your Inspire Courage effect provides an additional +1 to attack rolls and +1 to damage rolls, you gain 10 additional hit points, and if you have the Barbarian rage ability, you gain an additional use per rest.

In addition, you may spend one use of bardic music to grant your allies increased durability or to strike fear into the hearts of your enemies.

Warchanter Inspire Toughness
Cost: N/A (Granted with Warchanter III)
By spending a use of bardic music, you and all allies in range gain 20 temporary hit points and the benefits of the Diehard feat.

Warchanter Inspire Awe
Cost: N/A (Granted with Warchanter III)
By spending a use of bardic music, you strike deep terror into the hearts of all enemies in range, paralyzing them with fear for 6 seconds on a failed Will save vs. your Perform check. Even after they recover, their confidence is shaken, resulting in a -2 penalty on saves and attacks for 30 seconds. This is a fear effect.

Yes, this is very similar to the Virtuoso's Enthrall, which might seem like it's stepping on the Virt's toes a bit. However, it is granted at third tier instead of first, has a much shorter duration, doesn't inflict the save/attack penalty if the mob makes its initial save vs. paralysis, and doesn't work on fear-immune monsters.

Warchanter Inspire Legion
Cost: 3 AP
Prerequisite: Warchanter III
By spending two uses of bardic music, you grant yourself and all allies in range a +4 competence bonus to Strength, a base attack bonus equal to their character level, and a +2 competence bonus on damage rolls. This effect lasts for 24 seconds + 6 seconds per bard level.