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View Full Version : A new Paladin Capstone since the devs are making the current one obsolete next mod



maddmatt70
09-28-2010, 01:02 AM
So next mod there will be crystals that can be put into epic weapons allowing them to bypass DR. The whole point of going pure paladin at the moment was so the paladin could overcome dr with his/her weapon with the paladin capstone. Why go pure paladin with these new crystals? Grrr. Very annoying because this was the coolest thing the pure Paladin had so everyone might as well go 2 monk or rogue unless they add a new capstone for paladins.

toughguyjoe
09-28-2010, 01:15 AM
So next mod there will be crystals that can be put into epic weapons allowing them to bypass DR. The whole point of going pure paladin at the moment was so the paladin could overcome dr with his/her weapon with the paladin capstone. Why go pure paladin with these new crystals? Grrr. Very annoying because this was the coolest thing the pure Paladin had so everyone might as well go 2 monk or rogue unless they add a new capstone for paladins.

The Paladin capstone does more than just make your weapons bypass good, afaik. Doesn't it add actual holy damage?

Checked it and +1d6 Holy damage vs all evil creature as well as +2d6 Light damage vs evil outsider and evil undead.

So they didn't smash and destroy the paladin capstone :/

TheDearLeader
09-28-2010, 01:24 AM
The Paladin capstone does more than just make your weapons bypass good, afaik. Doesn't it add actual holy damage?

Checked it and +1d6 Holy damage vs all evil creature as well as +2d6 Light damage vs evil outsider and evil undead.

So they didn't smash and destroy the paladin capstone :/

The capstone is still nice, yes.

But its niceness has been.. shall we say lessened? It someone wanted DR Good on their Epic Weapon, they needed to go run enough Epic Dungeons for 30 tokens. Then, they had to spend said tokens. Also, they'd be foregoing any other type of DR bypassing, such as Silver.

I'm not going to complain too much - Paladins get Intimidate.

Sure, we've lost Zeal (its a loss), 20% of our off-hand swings, the ability to stun the only things we cared to stun, the ability to charge Power Cells, and some extra damage versus undead... what's the big deal about also allowing other classes to emulate our Capstone?


cap┬Ěstone
noun \ˈkap-ˌstōn\
Definition of CAPSTONE
2 : the high point : crowning achievement <the capstone of her career>

But we get a skill.

toughguyjoe
09-28-2010, 01:36 AM
The capstone is still nice, yes.

But its niceness has been.. shall we say lessened? It someone wanted DR Good on their Epic Weapon, they needed to go run enough Epic Dungeons for 30 tokens. Then, they had to spend said tokens. Also, they'd be foregoing any other type of DR bypassing, such as Silver.

I'm not going to complain too much - Paladins get Intimidate.

Sure, we've lost Zeal (its a loss), 20% of our off-hand swings, the ability to stun the only things we cared to stun, the ability to charge Power Cells, and some extra damage versus undead... what's the big deal about also allowing other classes to emulate our Capstone?



But we get a skill.

Lets see. Everyone but tempest II lost 20% of their offhand swings. Zeal is changed, not gone. Yes its a loss. No its not one that would make someone not want to play a pally. The Stun abilities were not working as intended. You know this. I know this. The ability to charge power cells was not working as intended. EVERYONE should have known that.

Emulating the paladin capstone would involve creating a timed crystal that when put onto an epic weapon(say ESOS) and allowed it to bypass good, and add 3d6 damage to it.

They are not implementing any such thing. They are simply giving options to make the Epic weapons that are lack luster an ability to become boss beaters for the builds that might use them.

TheDearLeader
09-28-2010, 02:06 AM
Lets see. Everyone but tempest II lost 20% of their offhand swings. Zeal is changed, not gone. Yes its a loss. No its not one that would make someone not want to play a pally. The Stun abilities were not working as intended. You know this. I know this. The ability to charge power cells was not working as intended. EVERYONE should have known that.

Emulating the paladin capstone would involve creating a timed crystal that when put onto an epic weapon(say ESOS) and allowed it to bypass good, and add 3d6 damage to it.

They are not implementing any such thing. They are simply giving options to make the Epic weapons that are lack luster an ability to become boss beaters for the builds that might use them.

The Censure Demons ability in its current form is useless - nuff said. The Tier 2 of almost every other PrE in the game seems to bring something something to the table, hence why so many multi builds incorporate some type of Tier 2 PrE. The PrE's damage works against all Evil Outsiders, so should the stun. I believe I've even suggested that somewhere, Censure Fiend vs. Censure Demon, since the combat description of it reads "Fiendslaying".

Zeal - yeah. Still there. Woo. And maybe if I could get Paladin Haste Boost IV like a Fighter or Rogue, I'd appreciate a chance at a double-strike.

TWF Nerf - same thing. Other classes are not as effected by this, because many get "Doublestrike" bonuses inherently. Fighter capstone is permanent, the new Special Feats the Rogue are getting are Permanent. No stopping combat to cast a spell that may allow you to possibly hit one more time, while still moving like molasses compared to almost every other class in the game.

Charging Power Cells - Sure, not WAI. But was it really game breaking? Fix bugs harmful to players prior to fixing bugs beneficial to them - just like with the Stun, and just like with

Extra damage versus undead - Was this such a big deal? Paladins are pretty niche anyway, was it creating a tear in the Matrix to have one Paladin in Abbott doing an extra 4d6 per swing?

Capstone Means someone who has devoted themselves to staying true to their class has something of worth and mettle to reward themselves with. By giving up the ability to have one of the various "win" multi-builds, a lvl 20 anything has something that benefits them. Some of them go as broadly universal as +2 to a stat, or 20% more spell damage, and such. Paladins could do more niche damage, and be granted additional flexibility when choosing what weapon to do it with. If anything, that lack of Boss-DR-Bypassment made Paladins on par with other combat classes.

Can I have an augment slot that emulates even a portion of someone else's capstone? I'll take the portion of the Barb Capstone that is Str +2, or maybe the Bard's/FvS's Cha +2.

And for the record, allowing them to Bypass DR is more powerful than giving them an arbitrary 3d6 additional damage.

Example : Sully on Elite, and a Barb using his ESoS. Lets give the Barb an arbitrary 100 Damage/Swing, just a random number here. On Normal, his DR is 35/Good and Silver. Would that Barb rather do 65 + 3d6 Points of Damage per swing, or 100 Points of Damage per swing?

You're right. The new Augmentations don't Emulate the Paladin's Capstone, they utterly trump it.

Angelus_dead
09-28-2010, 02:57 AM
Yeah, Paladins are having some trouble in U7, but it's not because some epic weapons are getting a DR bypass.

The reason is that Knight of the Chalice and Hunter of the Dead are bad specialties, and they just got worse. Both of them need improvements to be applicable in a broader scope of situations.

TheDearLeader
09-28-2010, 02:59 AM
Yeah, Paladins are having some trouble in U7, but it's not because some epic weapons are getting a DR bypass.

The reason is that Knight of the Chalice and Hunter of the Dead are bad specialties, and they just got worse. Both of them need improvements to be applicable in a broader scope of situations.

Love to ya, A_D.

Sure, its not the Augment Slot's fault. But it does take what little Paladins have going for them and belittle it further. :(

ZeroTakenaka
09-28-2010, 03:04 AM
Wait... I'm confused... what's wrong here exactly? You've always had those red crystal slots on epic items. Any info?

TheDearLeader
09-28-2010, 03:09 AM
Wait... I'm confused... what's wrong here exactly? You've always had those red crystal slots on epic items. Any info?

There are new ones coming out. 100 Hours, but they will Bypass two DR types. Used to be that one Red Slot = one DR type bypassed, so most epic items would still not Bypass the DR of Devil Bosses.

Ystradmynach
09-28-2010, 03:22 AM
Yeah, Paladins are having some trouble in U7, but it's not because some epic weapons are getting a DR bypass.

The reason is that Knight of the Chalice and Hunter of the Dead are bad specialties, and they just got worse. Both of them need improvements to be applicable in a broader scope of situations.

Can you tell me exactly Hunter of the Dead specifically got worse? I must have missed something about update 7.

toughguyjoe
09-28-2010, 03:44 AM
*Edited out anything that didn't have to do with capstones. you can make another thread if you want to continue to whine about them hurting pallys with recent changes. Everyone knows it happened.*

Capstone Means someone who has devoted themselves to staying true to their class has something of worth and mettle to reward themselves with. By giving up the ability to have one of the various "win" multi-builds, a lvl 20 anything has something that benefits them. Some of them go as broadly universal as +2 to a stat, or 20% more spell damage, and such. Paladins could do more niche damage, and be granted additional flexibility when choosing what weapon to do it with. If anything, that lack of Boss-DR-Bypassment made Paladins on par with other combat classes.

Can I have an augment slot that emulates even a portion of someone else's capstone? I'll take the portion of the Barb Capstone that is Str +2, or maybe the Bard's/FvS's Cha +2.

And for the record, allowing them to Bypass DR is more powerful than giving them an arbitrary 3d6 additional damage.

Example : Sully on Elite, and a Barb using his ESoS. Lets give the Barb an arbitrary 100 Damage/Swing, just a random number here. On Normal, his DR is 35/Good and Silver. Would that Barb rather do 65 + 3d6 Points of Damage per swing, or 100 Points of Damage per swing?

You're right. The new Augmentations don't Emulate the Paladin's Capstone, they utterly trump it.

I guess since everyone already had augment slots that could permanently mimic a part of the paladins capstone that it was too much then. However this thread didn't come out until all those Kensai and Frenzied could plug in a crystal that made their ESOS bypass devil and demon DR.

I also consider "Holy" and "Light" damage as arbitrary and totally against the paladin flavor. :p

Also, I remember a class with a totally worthless capstone. Oh wait, it was Rogue. Guess what, they came up with an alternate. I would therefore assume its safe to say Paladins may get a second pass at a capstone as well.

I too would love the Paladin capstone to be something like, "You are a Paragon of Justice and Might. Your smite ability now stuns evil creatures(DC= 10+Paladin Level+Cha Mod) You gain +2 to your Charisma score"

However what I don't like is when a mechanic is introduced people run to forums to yell. "ITS BETTER THAN WHAT MY GUY CAN DO! NOOOOOO!"

The Paladin needs love again. There are much better ways to get the devs to pay attention than to tell them they "ruined something and its B.S." This thread should have been titled: Paladin Capstone, Time for a change?

TheDearLeader
09-28-2010, 04:08 AM
I admit that the title could use some work. I didn't create the thread, though, just posted in it.

Red Slots for Bypassing one type of DR is cool. It makes sense that at levels of Epic Proportions, we'd be rolling with weapons that are special. But this is.. too much. Overpowered gets thrown around too much, but I don't know what else to call it.

I can't wait for someone to say "but its got a timer!" ... yeah. Because 100 Hours is a big deal. No one would complain if ship buffs lasted 100 hours.

LookingForABentoBox
09-28-2010, 08:26 AM
There are new ones coming out. 100 Hours, but they will Bypass two DR types. Used to be that one Red Slot = one DR type bypassed, so most epic items would still not Bypass the DR of Devil Bosses.

Can you link to a post saying this please? It seems you're the first one to mention the change and because of that I'm incredulous

Chai
09-28-2010, 08:45 AM
The power creep continues. One of the balancing factors in epic weapons was the fact that they mostly didnt break boss DR. Now a THF can run around with a eSOS and a 3xPOS maul, and maybe an everbright weapon.

Now the next big raid(s) and other high end content will be designed assuming everyone has epic DR breakers and is min maxed for them. /barf

rimble
09-28-2010, 08:52 AM
Can you tell me exactly Hunter of the Dead specifically got worse? I must have missed something about update 7.

It's relative. Every bit of new content that doesn't conform to your Undead or Evil Outsider specialty makes your abilities relatively less useful than they were before. I think KotC is still going alright this update, there are demons added, right? But not Undead.

Fortunately, HotD at least gets some generic abilities...Healing Amp and Neg Energy Immunity...KotC doesn't have any nice secondary things like that.

Krag
09-28-2010, 09:01 AM
I can't wait for someone to say "but its got a timer!" ... yeah. Because 100 Hours is a big deal. No one would complain if ship buffs lasted 100 hours.

100 hours may or may not be too much depending on the rarity of the augment crystals.
Turbine has a knack for implementing frustratingly low droprates. Marilith Chain scroll anyone?

Missing_Minds
09-28-2010, 09:04 AM
So next mod there will be crystals that can be put into epic weapons allowing them to bypass DR. The whole point of going pure paladin at the moment was so the paladin could overcome dr with his/her weapon with the paladin capstone. Why go pure paladin with these new crystals? Grrr. Very annoying because this was the coolest thing the pure Paladin had so everyone might as well go 2 monk or rogue unless they add a new capstone for paladins.

Madd, where did you see these? I've not seen anything on the lama discusssions about this nor any dev posts.

Nick_RC
09-28-2010, 09:08 AM
Paladins definately need another buff. both capstone and prestige lines. It seems silly defenders of siberis do more sustained dps against anything non devil than the dps prestige line.

N

LookingForABentoBox
09-28-2010, 09:12 AM
Paladins definately need another buff. both capstone and prestige lines. It seems silly defenders of siberis do more sustained dps against anything non devil than the dps prestige line.

N

How's that? And of course by devil you mean non-evil outsider because KotC works on all evil outsiders. Right?

vindicater
09-28-2010, 09:13 AM
I am pretty happy with the first two tiers of HOTD gost touch, healing amp(wich added with my human amp makes staying alive even that much easer) negetive energy imunity. Just think pallys ought to get imunity from neg stat drain at some point. How can you be uber aginst undead if they can just drain your stats?

Nick_RC
09-28-2010, 09:18 AM
How's that? And of course by devil you mean non-evil outsider because KotC works on all evil outsiders. Right?

Right. +4 sacred* str in there stance compared to KotC '...' against anything but EO. they get 3 extra smites but i meant sustained dps.

N

Edit: apologies sacred bonus to str - not profane - have new epic sets on the brain.

LookingForABentoBox
09-28-2010, 10:04 AM
Thanks for the clarification

TheDearLeader
09-28-2010, 01:10 PM
Red Augment Crystal of Aligned Planes:
A glowing red gem that permits an item to bypass all alignment based damage reduction, without modifying any other properties of the item. This augment crystal's enchantment lasts for 100 hours after being slotted, after which your item reverts to the original empty augment slot.

Red Augment Crystal of Demon's Ruin:
A glowing red gem that permits an item to bypass good aligned and cold iron damage reduction, without modifying any other properties of the item. This augment crystal's enchantment lasts for 100 hours after being slotted, after which your item reverts to the original empty augment slot.

Red Augment Crystal of Devil's Ruin:
A glowing red gem that permits an item to bypass good aligned and silver damage reduction, without modifying any other properties of the item. This augment crystal's enchantment lasts for 100 hours after being slotted, after which your item reverts to the original empty augment slot.

Red Augment Crystal of Metallic Edges:
A glowing red gem that permits an item to bypass all metallic based damage reduction, without modifying any other properties of the item. This augment crystal's enchantment lasts for 100 hours after being slotted, after which your item reverts to the original empty augment slot.

Red Augment Crystal of Xoriat's Ruin:
A glowing red gem that permits an item to bypass law aligned and byeshk damage reduction, without modifying any other properties of the item. This augment crystal's enchantment lasts for 100 hours after being slotted, after which your item reverts to the original empty augment slot.

For those asking about what we're talking about.

maddmatt70
09-28-2010, 02:20 PM
My whole reason for making my paladin pure and perhaps for making a paladin at all was that a pure paladin overcomes the dr with epic weapons; whereas, other classes do not. This was perhaps the biggest dps advantage a paladin had over other classes other then maybe a well timed smite and it just got taken away. That is absurd. I am hopping mad. Paladins are in poor shape as others have expressed and articulated in this thread especially in regards to dps and their offense so taking this advantage away that they have is meh. Let's see some Pally love soon. A new capstone would be one cure for their ailments.

Trillea
09-28-2010, 02:36 PM
Madd, where did you see these? I've not seen anything on the lama discusssions about this nor any dev posts.

They are new loot from the Devil Assault quest (I believe on epic difficulty only)

ViolentEnd
09-28-2010, 02:39 PM
If the Holy Avenger is ever implemented, as Eladrin alluded to ages ago, this may also be a reason to stay pure, to receive the lvl 20 pally ability of the weapon. Hopefully (assuming it ever gets done) it will be able to be "epicized" or at least compete with epic weapons.

rimble
09-28-2010, 02:39 PM
They are new loot from the Devil Assault quest (I believe on epic difficulty only)

It mentions augment slots...is that guild augment slots? Epic augment slots? If it's Guild Augment Slots, I don't particularly see the big deal...you're not going to be using some crappy random item with a guild augment slot. If they're Epic slots...oh dear...:o

TheDearLeader
09-28-2010, 03:26 PM
It mentions augment slots...is that guild augment slots? Epic augment slots? If it's Guild Augment Slots, I don't particularly see the big deal...you're not going to be using some crappy random item with a guild augment slot. If they're Epic slots...oh dear...:o

Read my post above. Red Augment Crystal. Meaning Epic.

SaisMatters
09-28-2010, 03:37 PM
If the Holy Avenger is ever implemented, as Eladrin alluded to ages ago, this may also be a reason to stay pure, to receive the lvl 20 pally ability of the weapon. Hopefully (assuming it ever gets done) it will be able to be "epicized" or at least compete with epic weapons.

I'm not holding my breath on this one. They've been "talking" about this from day one and still hasn't happened. Not to mention I can't see how a Holy Avenger would be better than some GS and Epic Weapons. IMO the pally capstone was supposed to be our "Avenger". Also, if I recall correctly, multi class Paly's could use a Holy Avenger in 3.5, so I don't think it would help Pure 20 Paladins.

justagame
09-28-2010, 03:46 PM
No matter how you characterize the changes, kotc pure pally has really been downgraded over the course of the last few updates. KOTC is now essentially a ranger without tempest, and only 1 favored enemy. It's quickly going from one of the more powerful PRE/capstone combos to a one-trick pony, IMO.

FuzzyDuck81
09-28-2010, 04:07 PM
I too would love the Paladin capstone to be something like, "You are a Paragon of Justice and Might. Your smite ability now stuns evil creatures(DC= 10+Paladin Level+Cha Mod) You gain +2 to your Charisma score"

this would be an awesome ability - powerful enough to be worthy of a capstone, but not so overpowered that it makes thing easy mode, as you only get so many smites before you have to wait for them to recharge.

GhostNull
09-28-2010, 06:05 PM
If the Devs were to ever get around to adding more capstones, I'd like to see some that are tied to the PrE's. For example what toughguyjoe proposed:

Your smite ability now stuns evil creatures (DC 10 + Paladin Level + Charisma modifier) You gain +2 to your Charisma score"

This capstone would require KotC III as it seems to fit the theme of the PrE. Although the capstone should probably offer a +2 strength instead(?). The stun shouldn't work on undead if this were to be tied into KotC.


A capstone for Hunter of the Dead could be:

Your turning ability has been improved. You now count as two levels higher for the purposes of turning Undead. Also any undead that are successfully turned are destroyed instantly rather than being frightened. You gain +2 to your Charisma score.


A capstone for Defender of Siberys:

You now posses DR 10/Evil and your Aura of Good generates hate among evil-aligned creatures that wander into your aura. You gain +2 to your Constitution score.

DR 10/Evil may be a bit much, right up there with Monk and Favored Soul capstone. I thought about more AC bonues or perhaps extra AC for allies within the Paladin's aura. Not sure about the passive hate generation either.

Weapons of Good will remain as a general capstone available to Paladins and doesn't require a PrE.

Just some whacky thoughts.

Impaqt
09-28-2010, 06:26 PM
Yes, because the devs need to have madmatts needs inmind whenever they design a new item...

Believe it or not, there are more pure paladins out there WITHOUT Epic weapons, than there are with.

The game does not revolve around the powergamers that make it their job to have the best of the best in everything.

There will still be plenty of use for the paladin capstone for many many players. If you think the extra damage isnt needed for your build, then Multiclass......

not sure why someone would cry because they can now drop 2 levels of monk on their paly, still have a way to bypass DR and pick up evasion with a solid save behind it.

Junts
09-28-2010, 06:30 PM
Yeah no one goes pure for +3d6 damage per swing.

Jesus Matt, really? Don't make threads like this, it makes me not want to read anything you post ever.

maddmatt70
09-29-2010, 12:34 AM
Yeah no one goes pure for +3d6 damage per swing.

Jesus Matt, really? Don't make threads like this, it makes me not want to read anything you post ever.

Lol. If you have not already noticed I only do not play barbarian, monk, and wizards currently and I have played everything but a monk at some time in the past. One of the primary reasons why I made my current paladin was his ability to overcome dr. I saved my chaosblades sets (2) just for this pally (currently trying to get chaosblades the actual item), but shrug. The other reasons why I made the pally was lay on hands and the nice saves i.e. defense. Come again with the patronizing comments. I tire of the nerf or the buffs of other clases at the expense of others especially where one class is doing less well. I ran my dwarven fighter for 2 years when fighters were gimped, but hey that is this game isn't it. I would rather not run a character around for another 2 years gimped until the devs give it some love.

The suggestions for a better capstone are good ones. Keep them coming.. :).

SaisMatters
09-29-2010, 03:44 PM
Lol. If you have not already noticed I only do not play barbarian, monk, and wizards currently and I have played everything but a monk at some time in the past. One of the primary reasons why I made my current paladin was his ability to overcome dr. I saved my chaosblades sets (2) just for this pally (currently trying to get chaosblades the actual item), but shrug. The other reasons why I made the pally was lay on hands and the nice saves i.e. defense. Come again with the patronizing comments. I tire of the nerf or the buffs of other clases at the expense of others especially where one class is doing less well. I ran my dwarven fighter for 2 years when fighters were gimped, but hey that is this game isn't it. I would rather not run a character around for another 2 years gimped until the devs give it some love.

The suggestions for a better capstone are good ones. Keep them coming.. :).

I remember when you cried doom that the Paladin Capstone was too powerful when it first came out, and now your crying that it isn't powerful enough? Your up and down like your on meds sometimes man!

KKDragonLord
09-29-2010, 03:54 PM
Yeah, Paladins are having some trouble in U7, but it's not because some epic weapons are getting a DR bypass.

The reason is that Knight of the Chalice and Hunter of the Dead are bad specialties, and they just got worse. Both of them need improvements to be applicable in a broader scope of situations.

Agreed.

It's funny that some people had the nerve to complain that Shintao has "Limited" effectiveness because the definitions for Tainted Creatures are restricted to "only a few" creature types.

When KotC and HotD are only marginally effective versus 1 creature type.
And i say marginally because against all other types Pallys are a lot worse than the other melees.

Cetus
09-29-2010, 03:54 PM
Well, also keep in mind the cost to have this crystal implemented in 100% of situations. Very high. You can safely say the droprate is going to be painfully low and popping 30 tokens everytime you want to make ur weapon a dr breaker is going to add up quickly. Your weapon will require a re-slot in any case since the upgrade is a consumable. Pally's will get their DR-break permanant- so although a loss, it isn't a direct loss of usefulness of the capstone in light of this ability.

BUT: I just hope I'm done with my completionist half-orc DR breaking ESOS pure kensai with claw+profane set....before any of the nerfs come...

DROOL...

..back...to...grinding...

LookingForABentoBox
09-29-2010, 03:58 PM
Well, also keep in mind the cost to have this crystal implemented in 100% of situations. Very high. You can safely say the droprate is going to be painfully low and popping 30 tokens everytime you want to make ur weapon a dr breaker is going to add up quickly. Your weapon will require a re-slot in any case since the upgrade is a consumable. Pally's will get their DR-break permanant- so although a loss, it isn't a direct loss of usefulness of the capstone in light of this ability.

BUT: I just hope I'm done with my completionist half-orc DR breaking ESOS pure kensai with claw+profane set....before any of the nerfs come...

DROOL...

..back...to...grinding...


For someone ignorant of the new crystals, why does it take 30 tokens to use the crystals? And are the crystals are unbound? What is a re-slot?

maddmatt70
09-29-2010, 05:17 PM
I remember when you cried doom that the Paladin Capstone was too powerful when it first came out, and now your crying that it isn't powerful enough? Your up and down like your on meds sometimes man!

You are trolling of course, but in answer to your statement the original paladin capstone was overpowered at that time especially in light of all the devils we fought in mod 6-8 and update 1. It was nerfed by 2d6 damage which seemed about right at the point in time. The crystals in essence nerf this capstone a second time and with a general lack of evil outsiders in game for the last several mods Paladins are in rough shape since the dps for paladins relies heavily on evil outsiders. Paladins have other issues of course such as being poor stunners on epic, lower hp with no evasion then the average barbarian or fighter and the list goes on.

I like balance and difference in characters and builds which the devs strive for. I applaud their efforts at doing so. The crystals are a disappointment as a nerf to an ability which is one of paladin's strongest. Buffs = Nerfs or Nerfs = Buffs logistically they are often the same thing.

gpk
10-17-2010, 11:37 PM
deja vu all over again...