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Arlith
09-22-2010, 10:46 AM
My son and I were recently discussing the TR process (Yes, DDO is a family passtime here) and one of the things that was most talked about was tome useage after a TR.

I understand ML requirements for tomes. It torqued me a little when they came out, but I get it. But for a TR, MLs on tomes are more than a little irritating. My son came up with an idea and I promised him I would post it here on the forums.

When a character goes through the TR process, they would receive "tokens" afterwards. These tokens, when put on the altar of change with a tome, would remove the ML requirement for that tome.

The number of tokens increases with the number of TRs on a specific character. Your first TR you get one token, second TR gets you two, and so on.

SaisMatters
09-22-2010, 10:51 AM
/not signed

minimum levels on tomes are fine. It takes an entire hour to get to level three on a TR .Level 7 for plus two's are fair, as you can level to level 7, even on a TR, fairly rapidly.

Arlith
09-22-2010, 11:01 AM
/not signed

minimum levels on tomes are fine. It takes an entire hour to get to level three on a TR .Level 7 for plus two's are fair, as you can level to level 7, even on a TR, fairly rapidly.

Yep. Wasn't thinking of +2's. Was thinking of +3's and 4's.

flynnjsw
09-22-2010, 11:08 AM
My son and I were recently discussing the TR process (Yes, DDO is a family passtime here) and one of the things that was most talked about was tome useage after a TR.

I understand ML requirements for tomes. It torqued me a little when they came out, but I get it. But for a TR, MLs on tomes are more than a little irritating. My son came up with an idea and I promised him I would post it here on the forums.

When a character goes through the TR process, they would receive "tokens" afterwards. These tokens, when put on the altar of change with a tome, would remove the ML requirement for that tome.

The number of tokens increases with the number of TRs on a specific character. Your first TR you get one token, second TR gets you two, and so on.

/sarcasm
While we're at it, how about adding a token to remove ML on GS, or maybe even Epics!!!
/sarcasm

I think ML's are fine just the way they are. No need to make yourself even more OP then you already are.

Flasharte
09-22-2010, 11:09 AM
ya it would suck to have to wait that long to reap the tome benefits on a TR.

the token idea is a good one for the +3, +4. I'd like to have to earn them though instead of give away. Perhaps some solo quest at lvl 20, the end reward is a token.

SaisMatters
09-22-2010, 11:15 AM
Yep. Wasn't thinking of +2's. Was thinking of +3's and 4's.

+3's and 4's would be way too overpowered at lower levels!

Fomori
09-22-2010, 11:22 AM
Tomes never used to have a ML. Then once TR was about to come out (or maybe right after it) they changed them to have the ML. Thus I'm pretty sure that the devs did not want you using a +3/+4 tome immediately at level 1.

Purgatory
09-22-2010, 11:24 AM
i just wished that you could retain the tomes you have already used. And they would auto aply at the min level when you achieve that level. Losing out on +3 and 4 tomes to a TR is a tuff one to swallow.

I know I lost out on +3 tomes in every stat when I started on my completionist. It been nice to have had them reaply when I re leveled up at the min level of the tomes. It saved me from having to use about 50 +2 tomes at level 7 every life and have to regrind for them +3's and 4's I initialy lost on my first TR.

This alone has been holding me back from TRing some of my other toons, alot 20 end rewards are needed to get full set of +3's. to only lose them when you TR.

Lorien_the_First_One
09-22-2010, 11:26 AM
OP, as has been pointed out, no tome used to have a ML. I actually think the move to MLs was a good one, and if anything I think they should increase the ML levels for tomes, not decrease them.


i just wished that you could retain the tomes you have already used. And they would auto aply at the min level when you achieve that level. Losing out on +3 and 4 tomes to a TR is a tuff one to swallow.

I know I lost out on +3 tomes in every stat when I started on my completionist. It been nice to have had them reaply when I re leveled up at the min level of the tomes. It saved me from having to use about 50 +2 tomes at level 7 every life and have to regrind for them +3's and 4's I initialy lost on my first TR.

This alone has been holding me back from TRing some of my other toons, alot 20 end rewards are needed to get full set of +3's. to only lose them when you TR.

I agree with this, I'd like tomes on TRs to reapply the same way they do for GR/LR. All it does now is make you not use tomes on your first life.

Renvar
09-22-2010, 11:36 AM
My son and I were recently discussing the TR process (Yes, DDO is a family passtime here) and one of the things that was most talked about was tome useage after a TR.

I understand ML requirements for tomes. It torqued me a little when they came out, but I get it. But for a TR, MLs on tomes are more than a little irritating. My son came up with an idea and I promised him I would post it here on the forums.

When a character goes through the TR process, they would receive "tokens" afterwards. These tokens, when put on the altar of change with a tome, would remove the ML requirement for that tome.

The number of tokens increases with the number of TRs on a specific character. Your first TR you get one token, second TR gets you two, and so on.

I think I see where you are going with this. Everyone is commenting on the impact on gameplay of having the tomes early. But really, the issue is not so much having the stats bump for to hit, damage, HP, or SP.

The issue is Feat qualifiers and skill points.

If you have a +3 tome, being able to put 14 points into Dex at creation is great. But, since you can't eat the tome until much later, you have to pass on ITWF feat until then. That can screw up your whole feat progression.

Dodge is another. Imagine a TR tempest ranger with a +3 dex tome. You can start with a 10 Dex and use the tome to qualify for Dodge (and thus mobility and spring attack) but, if you have to wait to eat the +3 tome, you can't even take your tempest pre-reqs until mid levels. Playing the toon that long without those benefits kinda sucks. Same with PA, CE or any feat that has a minimum stat requirement.

Skill points as well. To max your skill points you have to eat the tome and then LR. Which is lame.

kinar
09-22-2010, 11:44 AM
Skill points as well. To max your skill points you have to eat the tome and then LR. Which is lame.

Hmm...does this actually work?

Renvar
09-22-2010, 12:03 PM
Hmm...does this actually work?

Yes. If you have a +3 tome (And do not eat a +1 or +2 int tome at level 3 or 7) and you eat it, then you can LR.

When you LR, at level 3 it will give you a +1, at level 7, a +2, and then the +3. As a result, if you started with an 11 INT, then you LR after eating the +3, it will raise you to 12 at level 3 of the L process and you will have the extra skill point at levels 4,5,6,7,etc that you didn't have orginally.

If you do an LR and watch your stats as you level, you will see this happen.

SINIBYTE
09-22-2010, 12:07 PM
TR's using tomes should follow the same rules as GR's using tomes. I see no reason that after grinding out and pulling +3/+4 bound tomes you lose them on a TR. Handle it the same way they do a GR. On a +3 tome, you get +1 at 2, +2 at 7, +3 at 15.

Arlith
09-22-2010, 03:21 PM
I think I see where you are going with this. Everyone is commenting on the impact on gameplay of having the tomes early. But really, the issue is not so much having the stats bump for to hit, damage, HP, or SP.

The issue is Feat qualifiers and skill points.

If you have a +3 tome, being able to put 14 points into Dex at creation is great. But, since you can't eat the tome until much later, you have to pass on ITWF feat until then. That can screw up your whole feat progression.

Dodge is another. Imagine a TR tempest ranger with a +3 dex tome. You can start with a 10 Dex and use the tome to qualify for Dodge (and thus mobility and spring attack) but, if you have to wait to eat the +3 tome, you can't even take your tempest pre-reqs until mid levels. Playing the toon that long without those benefits kinda sucks. Same with PA, CE or any feat that has a minimum stat requirement.

Skill points as well. To max your skill points you have to eat the tome and then LR. Which is lame.

Exactly.

Arlith
09-22-2010, 03:24 PM
/sarcasm
While we're at it, how about adding a token to remove ML on GS, or maybe even Epics!!!
/sarcasm

I think ML's are fine just the way they are. No need to make yourself even more OP then you already are.

/sarcasm
See my post on GS and epics!
/sarcasm

Zuldar
09-22-2010, 03:26 PM
What they ought to do is add your tr count to your effective level for determining what gear you can use. If you're crazy enough to TR 10 times or so, then go ahead and use greensteel whenever, it's not like the game is challenging you anyway. At least that way running through waterworks for the hundredth time will be entertaining.

stainer
09-22-2010, 03:28 PM
What they ought to do is add your tr count to your effective level for determining what gear you can use. If you're crazy enough to TR 10 times or so, then go ahead and use greensteel whenever, it's not like the game is challenging you anyway. At least that way running through waterworks for the hundredth time will be entertaining.

This is an excellent point.

Arlith
09-22-2010, 03:39 PM
+3's and 4's would be way too overpowered at lower levels!

TR's are way over powered at lower levels as is. Hell, our regular toons are way overpowered at lower levels. Doubly true for toons with twink gear. Fighters are already only missing on a 1, and any added bonuses for casters are moot because melee has everything dead before the first spell can land.

Honestly I view a TR eating a +4 tome at level one as much less overpowering than a TR using MIN II's at level 12. And though it sounds awesome eating a +4 tome at level 1, the benefits usually don't fully materialize until later levels. At least no benefits you cannot simulate with twink gear.

Arlith
09-22-2010, 03:45 PM
Yes. If you have a +3 tome (And do not eat a +1 or +2 int tome at level 3 or 7) and you eat it, then you can LR.

When you LR, at level 3 it will give you a +1, at level 7, a +2, and then the +3. As a result, if you started with an 11 INT, then you LR after eating the +3, it will raise you to 12 at level 3 of the L process and you will have the extra skill point at levels 4,5,6,7,etc that you didn't have orginally.

If you do an LR and watch your stats as you level, you will see this happen.

Yep. But any schmoe at any level can do this. If you are a TR you should get an added benefit. More work, more gain. A level 17-20 can LR with +3/+4 tomes and gain the advantage of their tomes as their level progresses. A TR should do one better than that.

Or maybe a better way to go about it would be to allow a TR who does an LR full use of their tomes at level 1.

Fomori
09-22-2010, 03:49 PM
TR's are way over powered at lower levels as is. Hell, our regular toons are way overpowered at lower levels. Doubly true for toons with twink gear. Fighters are already only missing on a 1, and any added bonuses for casters are moot because melee has everything dead before the first spell can land.

Honestly I view a TR eating a +4 tome at level one as much less overpowering than a TR using MIN II's at level 12. And though it sounds awesome eating a +4 tome at level 1, the benefits usually don't fully materialize until later levels. At least no benefits you cannot simulate with twink gear.
The twink benefits in eating a tome at level 1 is the 'required stats' needed for feats and enhancements. Also additional skill points if using a Int tome. That is one reason why I think its a good idea that they do have ML to use.

The feat requirements of having a natural stat of a certain point are predicated on the character getting those from initial points and ability score increases. The excessive usage of tomes in DDO is by far part of the transition to online form but the mechanics in the feats are still PnP. No first level toon is going to have a +4 stat tome and allowing him the ability to use that is allowing for min/max models that create toons that can dump even more on 'dump stats'. All this is going to do is create more power creep which is a bad thing.

Krag
09-22-2010, 03:56 PM
I don't care much about the min levels, but, please, let us retain hard-earned +3-4 tomes. There is no reason to treat tomes other than the regular raid loot which stays with your toon forever.

Gandolf0710
09-22-2010, 04:18 PM
If you are going to TR why not just save your tomes until you are done TRing

Krag
09-22-2010, 04:24 PM
If you are going to TR why not just save your tomes until you are done TRing

It can be done if you are planning to TR once or twice and don't have eaten tomes. Do you know how many TRs are required for completionist?